info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
Energy use in "off mode" with X10 modules and LED light bulbs
1,111 views
Skip to first unread message
markl...@gmail.com
Aug 20, 2016, 12:09:35 AM8/20/16
to
Does anyone know if there are any ill effects from using LED lamps with X10 modules. It is pretty well known that when "off", the LED's dim but stay lit. If I do not care bout them being completely off (like in a closet, stairwell, or garage ...), how much current drain is there if I just let them glow slightly. I am switching 11 watt LED's for 13 watt CFL's. If the drain is over 2 watts, then switching would not help much. If drain is lower, then it might make sense to let them glow in the off position.
I also don't understand that in one circuit it is half brightness when off, but in another, the glow is only noticeable in complete darkness.
I am using Phillips non-dimmable, but they do dim - maybe they might burn out sooner.
I also don't understand that in one circuit it is half brightness when off, but in another, the glow is only noticeable in complete darkness.
I am using Phillips non-dimmable, but they do dim - maybe they might burn out sooner.
isw
Aug 20, 2016, 12:41:05 AM8/20/16
to
In article <42440b87-e4f4-40e8...@googlegroups.com>,
> It is pretty well known that when "off", the LED's dim but stay
> lit. If I do not care bout them being completely off (like in a closet,
> stairwell, or garage ...), how much current drain is there if I just let them
> glow slightly. I am switching 11 watt LED's for 13 watt CFL's. If the drain
> is over 2 watts, then switching would not help much. If drain is lower, then
> it might make sense to let them glow in the off position.
There is sometimes a problem with CFLs flashing every few seconds, due
to leakage through an internal resistor in the X10 lamp module. The
flashing can be stopped by removing the resistor, which also prevents
local control. It is *possible* that the LED-dim problem is related.
Ping me if you feel like clipping the resistor.
Another trick to stop the flashing is to parallel the CFL with a 7-watt
night-light, which serves to overcome the leakage current. It would be
easy enough to try that with the LED lamps too. I have no idea whether
it would work ...
> I also don't understand that in one circuit it is half brightness when off,
> but in another, the glow is only noticeable in complete darkness.
Does a specific bulb do that regardless of which X10 unit it's connected
to, or does a specific X10 unit cause any bulb to do that?
> I am using Phillips non-dimmable, but they do dim - maybe they might burn out
> sooner.
If Philips says they are non-dimmable, I'd guess they mean "don't do it
because a Bad Thing might happen" rather than "it won't work". You might
ping them to see if they'll tell you.
Isaac
markl...@gmail.com wrote:
> Does anyone know if there are any ill effects from using LED lamps with X10
> modules.
Shouldn't be, if you run them as ON-OFF only.
> Does anyone know if there are any ill effects from using LED lamps with X10
> modules.
> It is pretty well known that when "off", the LED's dim but stay
> lit. If I do not care bout them being completely off (like in a closet,
> stairwell, or garage ...), how much current drain is there if I just let them
> glow slightly. I am switching 11 watt LED's for 13 watt CFL's. If the drain
> is over 2 watts, then switching would not help much. If drain is lower, then
> it might make sense to let them glow in the off position.
to leakage through an internal resistor in the X10 lamp module. The
flashing can be stopped by removing the resistor, which also prevents
local control. It is *possible* that the LED-dim problem is related.
Ping me if you feel like clipping the resistor.
Another trick to stop the flashing is to parallel the CFL with a 7-watt
night-light, which serves to overcome the leakage current. It would be
easy enough to try that with the LED lamps too. I have no idea whether
it would work ...
> I also don't understand that in one circuit it is half brightness when off,
> but in another, the glow is only noticeable in complete darkness.
to, or does a specific X10 unit cause any bulb to do that?
> I am using Phillips non-dimmable, but they do dim - maybe they might burn out
> sooner.
because a Bad Thing might happen" rather than "it won't work". You might
ping them to see if they'll tell you.
Isaac
Don Wiss
Aug 21, 2016, 9:13:36 PM8/21/16
to
Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).
isw
Aug 22, 2016, 1:05:45 AM8/22/16
to
Art Todesco
Aug 22, 2016, 7:56:46 AM8/22/16
to
sense current. So, the lamp will still light dimly or flicker. I've
removed the resistor (plenty of on line sites tell how). If the clicks
bother you, you can modify an lamp module to make it a click free
appliance module (again several sites show how). I have done this to
several modules and they work just fine with CFLs and now LEDs. One
such module seems to get stuck in the on state after a short power
glitch. I have to then do a clean power cycle to get it back to normal.
Brian W. Antoine
Aug 27, 2016, 6:12:49 PM8/27/16
to
On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 07:56:46 -0400, Art Todesco <acto...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
There are modern applicance modules that still click loudly? I think I
swapped out my last original X-10 module for something programmable and
silent at least 10 years ago. You should also be able to program whether
the "local on" feature is active, which is usually what wants to pass that
small trickle current through the appliance to detect the local switch
being toggled. That's the current that is just enough to make a high
efficiency light like an LED come on dimly.
wrote:
swapped out my last original X-10 module for something programmable and
silent at least 10 years ago. You should also be able to program whether
the "local on" feature is active, which is usually what wants to pass that
small trickle current through the appliance to detect the local switch
being toggled. That's the current that is just enough to make a high
efficiency light like an LED come on dimly.
Art Todesco
Aug 28, 2016, 7:40:07 AM8/28/16
to
current through the appliance (lamp) for the local on/off function.
And, as I recall, the current is still present even when the local
on/off function is unused. The current for these modules is much
smaller than that of regular older design modules, but still can make a
string of LED Christmas lights glow dimly, but less than the regular
modules.
Brian W. Antoine
Sep 2, 2016, 5:12:53 PM9/2/16
to
On Sun, 28 Aug 2016 07:40:03 -0400, Art Todesco <acto...@yahoo.com>
Ok, good to know. I'd have thought by now that companies making these
modules would have dealt with the LED issue, but maybe not. The module
has to get power from someplace to operate. The really old X-10 stuff
was two wire, it got it's power via a trickle current through the load.
With modern three wire modules, I'd have expected that when you turned
off the local sense feature, it really did mean do not pass current
through the load.
One of the last old style appliance modules I swapped out was for my
Christmas Tree lights. It was loud and I had to put a 4W nightlight
on the circuit also, otherwise the trickle current from the LED's was
enough to trip the local sense and a few seconds after I turned the
lights off, they'd come back on. The ICON module that I used next
was both silent and the lights stayed off.
modules would have dealt with the LED issue, but maybe not. The module
has to get power from someplace to operate. The really old X-10 stuff
was two wire, it got it's power via a trickle current through the load.
With modern three wire modules, I'd have expected that when you turned
off the local sense feature, it really did mean do not pass current
through the load.
One of the last old style appliance modules I swapped out was for my
Christmas Tree lights. It was loud and I had to put a 4W nightlight
on the circuit also, otherwise the trickle current from the LED's was
enough to trip the local sense and a few seconds after I turned the
lights off, they'd come back on. The ICON module that I used next
was both silent and the lights stayed off.
lxb...@gmail.com
Oct 5, 2017, 2:38:55 PM10/5/17
to
To get a lamp module to work with LEDs and CFLs and low-power incandescent, you have to remove components associated with the local control feature.
If you are ok with doing mods to your appliance module, open it up and locate the 100K resistor (brown-black-yellow bands) and the 330K resistor (orange-orange-yellow bands). Chop both out of the unit. Or at least clip one lead of each.
The local control feature won't work, but LEDs and other low-power bulbs will work fine.
This will also reduce the quiescent power drain of the module.
If you are ok with doing mods to your appliance module, open it up and locate the 100K resistor (brown-black-yellow bands) and the 330K resistor (orange-orange-yellow bands). Chop both out of the unit. Or at least clip one lead of each.
The local control feature won't work, but LEDs and other low-power bulbs will work fine.
This will also reduce the quiescent power drain of the module.
jad...@gmail.com
Dec 11, 2017, 11:19:37 PM12/11/17
to
Thanks for this info! In other posts suggested snipping a zener which did not help. But please clarify: there are two 330k resistors in the schematic. Which one is the correct one?
Thanks tremendously! Joe
dsp...@gmail.com
Apr 11, 2018, 9:50:03 PM4/11/18
to
I have the same question! Which 330k resistor?
drrn...@gmail.com
Apr 30, 2019, 7:29:20 AM4/30/19
to
Here's an easy fix for LED lamp glow (and perhaps flicker) with X10 modules (AM466 appliance modules in particular). Recently I replaced several outdoor halogen floodlights with LED units and was was surprised to see that they remained ON (faintly but definitely) even when switched off. I had assumed that the appliance modules, which click audibly when switched on or off and which have no dimming function, were simple relays . . . but it turns out that, like the dimmable lamp modules, they emit a small current. This doesn't make incandescent or halogen bulbs glow, but it does so with the efficient LED's.
X10 websites show many schemes for modifying the AM466 to defeat this; it relates to "local control" current, and it involves clipping resistor(s) and/or diodes. Unfortunately, there are many different makes and models of the unit with different circuit board layouts, and the online plans don't distinguish among them.
Fortunately, along the way, I saw mention of hooking a small load such as a night light in parallel with an LED lamp to draw away current and eliminate the glow. This would of course just replace one glow with another, albeit the night lights could be tucked away in the cabinet with my X10 modules. Then I saw mention of using a small AC adapter, e.g. a phone charger, typically 1W or less, as the load. One simply plugs a splitter/adapter into the X10 module and then plugs in the LED lamp and the dummy load in parallel.
I have a whole collection of AC power supplies in different sizes; I tried a couple of the 5V units, which are most plentiful, and mirabile dictu no more glow! I ordered several inexpensive USB phone chargers, and alas these didn't solve the problem; they replaced the steady glow with an intermittent glow, flickering about 1/sec. Perhaps these use solid state switching rather than good, old fashioned transformers . . . In any event, I've gone back to the older power supplies, and these work very nicely. It's a simple plug-and-play solution.
I wonder what principles are involved here, and what dummy load (resistive, inductive, etc.) would be ideal (lowest power, lowest cost)? Would a similar approach work for dimmer modules? I have some dimmer circuits with multiple lamps which will accept LED's as long as one halogen bulb (resistive load) remains. In a dimmer circuit with a single lamp, I wonder what load might be plugged into a socket adapter, in parallel with the lamp?
X10 websites show many schemes for modifying the AM466 to defeat this; it relates to "local control" current, and it involves clipping resistor(s) and/or diodes. Unfortunately, there are many different makes and models of the unit with different circuit board layouts, and the online plans don't distinguish among them.
Fortunately, along the way, I saw mention of hooking a small load such as a night light in parallel with an LED lamp to draw away current and eliminate the glow. This would of course just replace one glow with another, albeit the night lights could be tucked away in the cabinet with my X10 modules. Then I saw mention of using a small AC adapter, e.g. a phone charger, typically 1W or less, as the load. One simply plugs a splitter/adapter into the X10 module and then plugs in the LED lamp and the dummy load in parallel.
I have a whole collection of AC power supplies in different sizes; I tried a couple of the 5V units, which are most plentiful, and mirabile dictu no more glow! I ordered several inexpensive USB phone chargers, and alas these didn't solve the problem; they replaced the steady glow with an intermittent glow, flickering about 1/sec. Perhaps these use solid state switching rather than good, old fashioned transformers . . . In any event, I've gone back to the older power supplies, and these work very nicely. It's a simple plug-and-play solution.
I wonder what principles are involved here, and what dummy load (resistive, inductive, etc.) would be ideal (lowest power, lowest cost)? Would a similar approach work for dimmer modules? I have some dimmer circuits with multiple lamps which will accept LED's as long as one halogen bulb (resistive load) remains. In a dimmer circuit with a single lamp, I wonder what load might be plugged into a socket adapter, in parallel with the lamp?
Bob F
Apr 30, 2019, 10:09:29 PM4/30/19
to
0 new messages