Clipsal C-Bus / Minder / C-Gate
Alex
been attempting to get them to all work together, but it seems that I
may need a separate PCI, as C-Gate does not appear to put the PC
interface in Minder into transparent mode. Before I go rushing off and
spending even more money on this system, can anyone confirm this? Does
anyone know how to put the PC interface in Minder into transparent
mode?
BTW, I had to obtain the latest build of C-Gate from Clipsal to even
get the thing to run properly with Minder as the PC Interface.
AJL
swimmingly (Thinkboxx is the Smart Companies generic brand - I would also
strongly recommend Thinkboxx software as opposed to Minder - more
functionality and more advanced). The problem is that the C-bus V2
Installation Software has the integrated communications module imbedded
which is where the option of Thinkboxx communications resides. C-gate I do
not believe has this option. The question is will C-gate and C-bus V2
Installation Software run concurrently on the same PC, if they do, only one
program can access the serial port at a time - question is would C-gate then
use the imbedded communications module in C-bus V2 - if so it might just
work through Minder/Thinkboxx. Sadly I think this is unlikely, btw why do
you want C-gate and Minder ? You could give Clipsal Integrated Systems a
call in Adelaide - they would know definitively.
Finally, the Smart Company is about to release a new version of the
Thinkboxx software - it is promising some really neat enhancements. You
should consider dropping the Minder interface and moving to Thinkboxx as the
hardware is identical.
Hope this helps,
Andrew
"Alex" <metas...@metacrawler.com> wrote in message
news:8ccd3e78.03041...@posting.google.com...
Mick
to unsing a PCI or CNI.
C-Gate needs a PCI o CNI, but I don't know why you want both as you
should be able to access the network through the Minder unit.
I believe that the ASCII strings for c-bus are kept under lock and key.
If minder needs a CNI then you need one for each device connecting to
the C-Bus.
From reading your post again it appears that you are trying to get
C-Gate to connect through the minder system. Your best bet is to call
CIS and ask them. I have spoken to them many times and they are very
good in trying to help
Mick
Mick
have c-bus abilities now. This means you can use your high grade PIR
(cheaper than A C-Bus PIR to turn lights on for example).
MIck
Alex
who might be thinking of going down the same road:
At the outset I wanted a HA system that would give me flexibility,
since I was unlikely to know in advance what functions I would need
until I had lived in the place for a while (it is a new house), and
could be easily integrated into a computerised home management system
that I would develop (I'm semi-retired from the IT industry with an
electronics background). I considered X-10, but was put off that by
stories about interference and lack of wide availability in Australia.
From what I could find out about C-Bus (mainly from the Clipsal
website & brochures) it seemed like a system that had been around for
a while, and had plenty of flexibility in the way it could be
configured.
So I went ahead and installed 91 units: 8 x 12 channel relays; 4 x 8
channel dimmers; 7 x 4 channel dimmers; & 55 Key switches of various
types. This controls about 160 light fixtures; pool equipment; and a
few power circuits for fans, heating, etc. In addition, I installed 12
x C-Bus temperature sensor & 4 x C-Bus External PIR, and plan to add a
few more C-Bus and non-C-Bus sensors such as rain detector, mains
current monitor, pool temperature, etc.
The first problem I ran into was ceiling fan control. According to the
installer, the only way to achieve multi-speed control was to use 3
relays for each fan (there are 6 ceiling fans in the house) and a
Minder to sequence the relays as the switch is depressed. I wasn't too
impressed to find this out, as I had assumed that the C-Bus units
would have some way to cycle from load to load, but since I had been
intending to use a Minder for interior PIR/security & scene control, I
accepted that, and yes there are 18 relays dedicated to switching
3-speed fans which we hardly ever use! Overkill.
The next problem was the one that I'm still working on - that led me
to C-Gate - and that is the devices Clipsal call "temperature
sensors". (In the first place, I should say that the installer did try
to talk me out of putting them in, as he said they would not be
accurate enough to manage the a/c & heating, but of course I knew
better :-), and told him all I wanted to do was monitor the
temperatures in each zone. The idea was to eventually have a
diagrammatic map of the house showing temperatures, power consumption,
state of lighting & pool, etc, accessible via a web browser.)
Pretty much the first thing I tried to do with the "temperature
sensors" was to display their values on the plan of the house using
Minder. Problem was, it didn't work. No matter what I tried, I was
unable to display the temperature values on the plan. All I could do
was make an icon change in response to the sensor going above or below
a preset target temperature (and the only way to change the target for
a unit is to use the C-Bus installation software).
I discussed this with the installer, who was now telling me that you
can't read the temperature values with Minder, so in the end I
contacted Clipsal. Their initial response was to provide me with the
same instructions that I had already followed, i.e. they didn't seem
aware that it was not possible, but after a lot of emails backwards
and forwards, they finally told me it was a feature that had been
planned but never implemented.
Well I was not happy to hear that. How can you call a device a
"temperature sensor" when it only behaves like a thermostat – a
thermostat which the installers told me is not accurate enough to
control heating & cooling? So after more emails to Clipsal (probably
getting sick of me by now) they sent me a copy of C-Gate to shut me
up, which they said I would be able to use to read the temperature
values into my own software.
I spent a few days playing with C-Gate, wondering why it didn't seem
to work. Back to Clipsal once again – I have to say that recently they
do seem to be trying to help – who quickly sent me the latest build of
C-Gate.
Success! Working temperature sensors.
However, when connected via the PC interface in Minder, C-Gate does
not receive group level change messages. I guess this is because the
interface is not passing them through. Everything else does seem to
operate correctly, though. Minder does seem to be in charge, the
C-Gate object model is updated at regular intervals, and all devices
work as expected. I get the feeling that all I need is a single
command to the PC interface in Minder to put it into transparent mode,
and I would then be able to use my own software to manage the entire
system, which was my objective in the first place. But if I can't
figure out what that command is, I guess I will just have to donate
more money to Clipsal for the PCI interface. (It was they who
suggested to me that I would most likely require a separate PCI
interface to achieve "100% control").
One poster above mentioned that I would not be able to run Minder at
the same time as C-Gate because the OS does not normally let 2
programs access the same port. That is true, but in my setup I don't
really need to be running both at once. What I plan to do (the
long-term project :-) is develop my own web-based software to manage
the C-Bus devices via C-Gate, and use Minder simply to generate C-Bus
group level change messages from the sensors connected to it. I would
only need to run Minder occasionally, in much the same way as I only
need to run the C-Bus installation software occasionally, when devices
need to be re-programmed.
As a final comment (if you have managed to read this far) here is my
opinion of the C-Bus system:
In general, it needs to be brought up to date.
The C-Bus installation software runs in 16-bit mode (not good for
modern PC operating systems, and not what you want running on a system
designed for reliability) and appears to have been written using
Visual Basic version 3. Time for a recompile using Visual Studio I
think.
At least the Minder software is 32-bit, so it won't bring your system
to its knees when you run it, but programming it is entirely
non-intuitive. The language does not follow the norms of other
programming languages, so no matter how much experience you have, you
will be in for a steep learning curve. Once you get the hang of it, it
does seem reasonably powerful, with one major exception (at least I
can't see how to do it) – there doesn't seem to be any way to read in
data from a file or port and incorporate that into a scenario. Adding
that feature would make the whole thing a lot more flexible, and give
it the ability to act on a much wider range of input situations.
Finally, the C-Bus system itself needs a re-think. The network runs at
a blazing 500 bytes/second, so things are somewhat sluggish, and there
are frequent "collisions", resulting in data not being read or written
to devices when you are programming them.
But perhaps the biggest issue of all (in my opinion) is that Clipsal
have chosen to hide certain aspects of device functionality, resulting
in substantially less flexibility than would otherwise be the case.
For example, you cannot determine the state of a switch, only the
result of a switch operation on a group. And while you can determine
the state of a load terminal, you cannot alter it except via a group.
In case you are wondering why this is an issue, consider the following
scenario:
You have a light in the bathroom which you want turned on to a preset
level during the night in response to movement detected by a PIR
sensor. You also want to be able to manually operate that same light
during the night, overriding the sensor. When you have manually turned
the light on, you don't want it to suddenly turn off in response to
the sensor timeout.
In that situation, your software needs to know whether the light was
turned on with the light switch or the sensor. With C-Bus, you have to
associate a group with a load, and then associate the group with the
appropriate switch and sensor. The thing that changes when you turn
the light on and off is the group level, so you have no way of knowing
whether the light was turned on in response to the switch or the
sensor, but you need to know that to know whether the sensor timeout
should turn the light off. You don't want the light suddenly switching
off after you have manually turned it on.
In an on/off situation it is possible to work around this by using
"dummy groups", i.e. a separate groups for the switch and the load,
with Minder or C-Gate managing it, but that has a major weakness in
that it is not fail-safe – if the management system fails, you can't
operate the light at all, because you have dispensed with the standard
C-Bus method of operation. Ideally you want the system that controls
the sensor to sit "outside" the normal operation of C-Bus, so that if
it fails, you can still control the light from the switch. Secondly,
it is difficult to implement this in a dimming situation – you have to
duplicate the functionality of the C-Bus switch dimming control with
your own software.
At the end of the day I haven't quite got what I wanted with C-Bus. It
got too hard for the installer to figure out how to integrate the a/c
into it, so he didn't; and the underfloor heating is sort of half
integrated, but with problems. It also ended up costing me a lot more
than I expected – about 4 times the cost of conventionally-wired. The
installer insisted on running the mains wiring back to a central
location and installing the relays and dimmers there, so if anything
it probably used more wire than a conventional installation, but
annoyingly he didn't run separate neutrals back to the RCDs, so it is
virtually impossible to rewire a load from a relay to a dimmer, for
instance.
AJL
Well you and I are doing the same thing it appears - I have just
finished the system installation and am slowly programming up c-bus2. I
agree with your comments re: c-bus and have found it very limiting, I have
approached it a little differently, I have basically used C-bus for device
control - an extension of the outputs of Thinkboxx JV300 (Minder in your
case) so to speak. All my PIR stuff is done through Thinkboxx and
temperature measurement. The temp sensors for Thinkboxx are easily
manufacturer using a LM35 temp sensor and a 22k resistor - about $5 a sensor
(of course you can buy pre made ones for about $100). If you want more
complex control of your HVAC use an RCS Thermostat set-up (which has some
real smarts built in such as fuzzy logic and learning capability and saves a
lot of Thinkboxx programming) that talks to Thinkboxx through it's second
RS485 port. Re: you fans I agree again to use C-bus is complex - you should
have used an analogue output from Minder and build an interface including
relays with logic that changes the according to the voltage put out on one
of the analogue outputs - again there maybe an x-10 solution that Thinkboxx
can command. I am controlling HVAC, Pools and lights but only use c-bus
where suitable. I also have an ITI RF control and Infra red control of some
components using Thinkboxx modules - again c-bus Infrared control is very
limited and expensive as are there PIR units.
I have found the scenario language very strong and Thinkboxx software
supports DDE control of other programs through scenarios. The Minder
software Clipsal sells is somewhat 'dumber' and they have left out some
functionality such as it competes with their software. The Minder hardware
is manufacturered under licence to the Smart Company, makers of Thinkboxx.
As I said there is finally a new version on Thinkboxx software and firmware
due soon which will further enhance the unit. They are promising a web
interface soon. If you need some real programming info I can give you the
name one of the original programmers of Thinkboxx - but I will not post it
here - I will email you my email address if you wish to reply. I believe
the relationship between Clipsal & the Smart Company has soured of recent -
eg.) Clipsal will not sell C-bus SIMS for Thinkboxx anymore (but you can
pick them up though).
Best of luck and don't despair the Thinkboxx / minder is very powerful and
reliable (I have had Mk1 version running an automation system in a ski lodge
for over 8 years now) - I just think you should use your Minder for greater
control and avoid using much c-bus logic other than scenes.
Regards,
Andrew Lean
"Alex" <metas...@metacrawler.com> wrote in message
news:8ccd3e78.03041...@posting.google.com...
> "temperature sensor" when it only behaves like a thermostat - a
> thermostat which the installers told me is not accurate enough to
> control heating & cooling? So after more emails to Clipsal (probably
> getting sick of me by now) they sent me a copy of C-Gate to shut me
> up, which they said I would be able to use to read the temperature
> values into my own software.
>
> I spent a few days playing with C-Gate, wondering why it didn't seem
> to work. Back to Clipsal once again - I have to say that recently they
> do seem to be trying to help - who quickly sent me the latest build of
> can't see how to do it) - there doesn't seem to be any way to read in
> that it is not fail-safe - if the management system fails, you can't
> operate the light at all, because you have dispensed with the standard
> C-Bus method of operation. Ideally you want the system that controls
> the sensor to sit "outside" the normal operation of C-Bus, so that if
> it fails, you can still control the light from the switch. Secondly,
> it is difficult to implement this in a dimming situation - you have to
> duplicate the functionality of the C-Bus switch dimming control with
> your own software.
>
> At the end of the day I haven't quite got what I wanted with C-Bus. It
> got too hard for the installer to figure out how to integrate the a/c
> into it, so he didn't; and the underfloor heating is sort of half
> integrated, but with problems. It also ended up costing me a lot more
> than I expected - about 4 times the cost of conventionally-wired. The