x10 Help
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Guys
Im hoping you guys can give me some guidance with regards to x10 as im
not too familiar with using it...I use CBUS for lighting but would like
to be able to use some x10 plugin modules here and there as they are
much much cheaper than using the CBUS wireless kit.........
I got one of Jeffs XTB II devices (in kit form) a while back and had a
play with it connected to my Homevision controller....I did have some
issues with it but was too busy with work to spend time on it....
Now that i have a few days off i thought i would try and get the x10
stuff working but this time round i couldnt get any on the plugin
modules to respond at all ;-( .......I can however control an LD11
which has a lamp connected to it and have placed it in several
locations around my small house and it responds fine...I have tried
setting up a lamp module with the same id as the LD11 and plugged into
the same power strip as the LD11 but it doesnt respond ......any ideas
????
Also i was considering purchasing the elk esm1 and was hoping that i
can convert it to 240v by replacing the plug pak ...???? 50hz ????
Thanks
Frank
--
Frank Mc Alinden
Dave Houston
standard or extended codes? I think the LD11 is the only 230V device that
responds to extended codes.
The ESM1 should be OK as long as the secondary is 12VAC. You may have to
recalibrate it as the replacement transformer may be either more or less
efficient at 120kHz. There's a potentiometer inside that you can adjust if
needed. Search this group using "galvin esm1 schematic" for a schematic.
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Guys
A little more info.......I removed the XTB and connected the x10
interface (TW523 equiv) to Homevision and the plugin modules appear
to respond to most x10 commands...???..Is it possible the XTB signal is
too strong for these devices ????
Jeff Volp
I answered your email last night. Hopefully, that will give you some help.
Checking my records, I found you bought one of the first 240V 50Hz kits.
Since your LED doesn't flash in response to a HomeVision output, the digital
signal is not turning the transmitter on. I realize shipping from Australia
is expensive, but it may be worth sending it back to have it fully tested.
Otherwise, all I can suggest is that you re-check that all components are
installed properly.
There was a firmware update after your unit was shipped to address an error
in 3-phase transmission. However, that would not prevent the LED from
flashing. And, since your email said you were on a single-phase system,
that should not effect you anyway. If you choose not to return the XTB-II
for testing, I'll just mail you a new PIC.
Jeff
"Frank Mc Alinden" <Frank.Mc.Al...@no-mx.forums.nospam.com.au>
wrote in message news:Frank.Mc.Al...@no-mx.forums.nospam.com.au...
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> Now that i have a few days off i thought i would try and get the x10
> stuff working but this time round i couldnt get any on the plugin
> modules to respond at all ;-( .......I can however control an LD11
> which has a lamp connected to it and have placed it in several
> locations around my small house and it responds fine...I have tried
> setting up a lamp module with the same id as the LD11 and plugged into
> the same power strip as the LD11 but it doesnt respond ......any ideas
> ????
I think you'll have to describe the equipment you're using for the US
readers. I tried to do that, and when I put LD11 and X-10 into Google I got
this page:
Warning - visiting this web site may harm your computer!
You can learn more about harmful web content and how to protect your
computer at StopBadware.org.
Suggestions:
Return to the previous page and pick another result.
Try another search to find what you're looking for.
Or you can continue to
http://www.atg.com.hk/en/Productview.asp?productid=10033 at your own risk.
Advisory provided by Google
Fascinating! I read a while back the Google had determined that 1 out of
every 10 sites on the net is infected with malware, spyware or worse. This
is the first time I am aware of that they warned me not to click on an
infected site. (I know this doesn't help you with your problem, but I
thought Google's reaction to the search warranted some exposure here in CHA
PS: Here's the blurb:
May 11, 2007 - Google Research Finds 10 Percent of Web Pages Hold Malware
According to research from Google, 10 percent of web pages contain malicious
code. Google closely analyzed 4.5 million web pages over the course of a
year and found that approximately ten percent, or 450,000, had the
capability of installing malware without users' knowledge. An additional
700,000 pages are believed to be infected with code that could harm users'
computers. The company says it has "started an effort to identify all web
pages in the Internet that could be malicious." Most entice users to visit
the dangerous pages through tempting offers, and exploit holes in Microsoft
Internet Explorer (IE) to install themselves on users' computers. Google
also examined the vectors used by attackers to infect these web pages; most
malicious code was located in elements beyond the control of website owners,
such as banner advertisements and widgets.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6645895.stm
Sorry to interrupt your thread. I'll go back to the search to see if there
are other sites that give details about 240VAC X-10 gear without the
malware!
--
Bobby G.
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Guys
Thanks for your responses.....
The modules im using are 240v versions not modded 110v versions...An
LD11 is a din mount dimmer.......Im sending both standard and Custom
(which i assume is extended) x10 commands......
My initial problem with no reponse at all was due to a bent pin on the
Homevision x10 socket which i have now fixed....Have done some more
testing for jeff and contacted him offline ....
>The ESM1 should be OK as long as the secondary is 12VAC. You may have
>to recalibrate it as the replacement transformer may be either more or
less
>efficient at 120kHz. There's a potentiometer inside that you can
adjust if
>needed. Search this group using "galvin esm1 schematic" for a
schematic.
Thanks for that Dave might have to get one and mod it......
Robert Green
> My initial problem with no reponse at all was due to a bent pin on the
> Homevision x10 socket.
Good on you, mate! What made you even think to look at the connection?
As for the ESM1 and the difference in Hz between Aussie and US power, I
thought that someone said it doesn't make any difference but I couldn't find
substantiation for that in a quick Google search. Perhaps someone smarter
will chime in and clarify. It's too bad that X-10 never really embraced
240VAC the way they did 110VAC. From what I saw in my brief search, the
price for the 240VAC gear is still pretty painful.
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
And if each of the 50 states in the USA required a different plug design,
X-10 prices here would reflect that. While Europe is standardizing on
voltage, nearly each country has a different plug style. If Belgium splits,
there will probably be yet another. ;-)
European/US prices for X-10 devices that do not plug into the powerline are
not all that different, especially considering the difference in sales
volume. Laser sells the HR10E for 12GBP. X-10 sells the equivalent HR12A for
$19.99.
As for using the ESM1 on 230VAC, replacing the 120VAC:12VAC wall transformer
with a 230VAC:12VAC wall transformer should work. I've answered this
question a few times but don't recall ever getting feedback from anyone who
tried it. Whether that's because no one tried it or everyone who did was
electrocuted, I don't know. Maybe Frank, if he survives, will give us some
feedback.
Robert Green
news:46fba451....@nntp.fuse.net...
> "Robert Green" <ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>
> >"Frank Mc Alinden" <Frank.Mc.Al...@no-mx.forums.nospam.com.au>
> >
> >> My initial problem with no reponse at all was due to a bent pin on the
> >> Homevision x10 socket.
> >
> >Good on you, mate! What made you even think to look at the connection?
> >
> >As for the ESM1 and the difference in Hz between Aussie and US power, I
> >thought that someone said it doesn't make any difference but I couldn't
find
> >substantiation for that in a quick Google search. Perhaps someone
smarter
> >will chime in and clarify. It's too bad that X-10 never really embraced
> >240VAC the way they did 110VAC. From what I saw in my brief search, the
> >price for the 240VAC gear is still pretty painful.
>
> And if each of the 50 states in the USA required a different plug design,
> X-10 prices here would reflect that. While Europe is standardizing on
> voltage, nearly each country has a different plug style. If Belgium
splits,
> there will probably be yet another. ;-)
>
> European/US prices for X-10 devices that do not plug into the powerline
are
> not all that different, especially considering the difference in sales
> volume. Laser sells the HR10E for 12GBP. X-10 sells the equivalent HR12A
for
> $19.99.
The transformer that came with my GPS has a detachable plate on the wall
plug side. It looks like they can mount any sort of plug type on that
adapter plate. I've noticed that a number of new X-10 items come with wall
warts (the cameras and the new LED mini-timer, among others) so maybe
they'll get around to designing a similar system for their 220-240VAC
modules. I believe that the Sanyo GPS supply is a switching-type and X-10
can't use switching supplies because they would not pass the 120KHz X-10
signal to the device they power. Do you think it's possible to design a
switching supply that's capable of passing the X-10 signal?
> As for using the ESM1 on 230VAC, replacing the 120VAC:12VAC wall
transformer
> with a 230VAC:12VAC wall transformer should work. I've answered this
> question a few times but don't recall ever getting feedback from anyone
who
> tried it. Whether that's because no one tried it or everyone who did was
> electrocuted, I don't know. Maybe Frank, if he survives, will give us some
> feedback.
What might the possible effects be of the differ power frequencies? My
"impression" (and it's only that because I don't usually pay a lot of
attention to 220VAC X-10 gear questions) is that the meter obtains the
frequency from the powerline to start with, so it should at least indicate
the presence of a signal, i.e. the bars will light. My question is whether
the 'X-10 Good' LED will light, too.
It's up to Frank now. With the dollar so weak, there probably will never be
a better time for him to buy an ESM1. If he's serious enough about HA to
own a centralized controller like HomeVision, he's *got* to get a meter
sooner or later. Sooner will probably save a lot of plugging and unplugging
of suspicious signal suckers and noise sources. Hopefully he'll survive the
transformer experiment and report his results.
I thought Jeff had an ESM1, too. He should have the appropriate sized
220VAC transformer and the electro-smarts not to electrocute himself. It's
big of me to volunteer his ESM1 (and his time) for a possibly lethal
experiment <grin> but he's probably bored now that the he's finishing up the
XTB-IIR.
--
Bobby G.
Jeff Volp
news:0_idnW-iDraPJ2bb...@rcn.net...
>
> I thought Jeff had an ESM1, too. He should have the appropriate sized
> 220VAC transformer and the electro-smarts not to electrocute himself.
> It's
> big of me to volunteer his ESM1 (and his time) for a possibly lethal
> experiment <grin> but he's probably bored now that the he's finishing up
> the
> XTB-IIR.
Yes I bought a ESM1 back when it cost less than $50. Sorry, no 220VAC
wall-warts here.
Getting bored of using the soldering iron...
However, the temperatures finally broke. We had a beautiful day up in Zion
yesterday.
Jeff
Dave Houston
>The transformer that came with my GPS has a detachable plate on the wall
>plug side. It looks like they can mount any sort of plug type on that
>adapter plate. I've noticed that a number of new X-10 items come with wall
>warts (the cameras and the new LED mini-timer, among others) so maybe
>they'll get around to designing a similar system for their 220-240VAC
>modules. I believe that the Sanyo GPS supply is a switching-type and X-10
>can't use switching supplies because they would not pass the 120KHz X-10
>signal to the device they power. Do you think it's possible to design a
>switching supply that's capable of passing the X-10 signal?
Some of the European modules mount on DIN rails which are independent of
plug styles.
The 120kHz does not go through the power supply section. It takes a separate
path so there's no reason why one couldn't design an internal SMPS and still
sense the 120kHz but, if you mean an external SMPS the answer is no
(although there are some who think SMPS supplies are capable of
spontaneously generating random X-10 signals but in the middle of the
night).
>What might the possible effects be of the differ power frequencies? My
>"impression" (and it's only that because I don't usually pay a lot of
>attention to 220VAC X-10 gear questions) is that the meter obtains the
>frequency from the powerline to start with, so it should at least indicate
>the presence of a signal, i.e. the bars will light. My question is whether
>the 'X-10 Good' LED will light, too.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The 120kHz is the same whether it's
120V/60Hz or 230V/50Hz. The ESM1 will neither know nor care that it's on
50Hz power since it's converted to DC internally. The question is whether a
replacement 230VAC:12VAC wall transformer will pass the 120kHz in the same
way as the 120VAC:12VAC transformer. The ESM1 has an internal potentiometer
that sets the gain and I'm reasonably sure it has more than adequate range
to compensate for differences in transformer transfer ratio.
The "X-10 Good" LED lights whenever 1110 is followed by 9 ones and 9 zeros
(I'm not sure it checks for Manchester integrity).
>It's up to Frank now. With the dollar so weak, there probably will never be
>a better time for him to buy an ESM1. If he's serious enough about HA to
>own a centralized controller like HomeVision, he's *got* to get a meter
>sooner or later. Sooner will probably save a lot of plugging and unplugging
>of suspicious signal suckers and noise sources. Hopefully he'll survive the
>transformer experiment and report his results.
The dollar will get much, much weaker.
>I thought Jeff had an ESM1, too. He should have the appropriate sized
>220VAC transformer and the electro-smarts not to electrocute himself. It's
>big of me to volunteer his ESM1 (and his time) for a possibly lethal
>experiment <grin> but he's probably bored now that the he's finishing up the
>XTB-IIR.
Surely, you'll want him to wait until after he's tested the spontaneous
generation theory. ;-)
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Guys
Bobby would you believe not only had i a bent pin on my test Homevision
unit but also on my installed hv unit..;-)
Anyway i now have Jeffs xtb11 up and running great in Booster mode it
reach,s no matter where i locate a plugin module ;-)......I couldnt get
it to work though connected directly to Homevision ....didnt have enough
time to do a thorough investigation as i also had to get another
hardware device up and running which connects between Homevision and my
CBUS lighting......
Yes the 240v x10 prices are a bit high compared to the U.S. prices but
then Oz prices for CBUS is much better (presently) than U.S.
prices..;-)
Now that the Oz dollar is up around 88 US cents i think i will order a
esm1 and see if i can mod it....I just assumed that the U.S. version
may have used the mains frequency as a reference for its 120khz signal
???
Have ordered a 240v version maxi controller from Laser in the U.K. will
i be able to use this to calibrate the ems1...???
Thanks
Robert Green
news:HmQKi.605730$p47.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Robert Green" <ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
> news:0_idnW-iDraPJ2bb...@rcn.net...
> >
> > I thought Jeff had an ESM1, too. He should have the appropriate sized
> > 220VAC transformer and the electro-smarts not to electrocute himself.
> > It's
> > big of me to volunteer his ESM1 (and his time) for a possibly lethal
> > experiment <grin> but he's probably bored now that the he's finishing up
> > the
> > XTB-IIR.
>
> Yes I bought a ESM1 back when it cost less than $50. Sorry, no 220VAC
> wall-warts here.
I thought you might have a suitable transformer you could jury rig. My bad.
I guess Frank's on his own. (-:
> Getting bored of using the soldering iron...
Hopefully Bruce's rogue charger will arrive soon and you can put your Dr.
Volt hat on and figure out why it's able to turn lights on in the middle of
the night. That's got to be more fun than repetitive soldering. We've got
to find you a new project. An XTB-RF would be nice. I think lots of folks
would be interested in an X-10 coupler that didn't need to be wired into the
main circuit panel.
My HomeVision controller arrived today sans power supply (everyone's missing
a wallwart, it seems) but apparently the PS from an old LPT auto-switch box
(from the days before home networks) fits and it powers up. Now to figure
out the version of the motherboard and PROM. It responds to IR and puts a
screen up on the TV, so at least it's not DOA. I'm going to check it out
with a TW-523 before I try it with the XTB-II.
> However, the temperatures finally broke. We had a beautiful day up in
Zion
> yesterday.
It was near 90 and swampy here. A totally inside day. We just got a WII to
keep young visitors entertained and out of trouble but we oldsters are using
it more than they are! I got to practice my bowling and it's unbelivably
realistic, right down to the screams of the gallery when you accidentally
let go of the ball on the backswing. I was carping about the constant
reminders to secure the controller to your hand with the wrist strap until
it flew out of my hand and smashed into the wall just inches above the new
LCD TV. There's a good reason they warn you over and over to secure the
controller to your hand. The boxing sim's pretty realistic, too. It's the
only video game I ever played that made me break out into a serious sweat.
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>Now that the Oz dollar is up around 88 US cents i think i will order a
>esm1 and see if i can mod it....I just assumed that the U.S. version
>may have used the mains frequency as a reference for its 120khz signal
>???
I'm not sure what you mean. The 120kHz bursts sync to the ZC whatever the
line frequency. The ESM1 detects ZC and measures the amplitude of the signal
at ZC+500猶.
>Have ordered a 240v version maxi controller from Laser in the U.K. will
>i be able to use this to calibrate the ems1...???
If the maxi meets CE limits, its output is 5Vpp. You might confirm that with
Laser. Plug the maxi and ESM1 (after replacing the transformer) into the
same outlet or powerstrip and adjust the potentiometer for full scale.
If you have access to a scope, you can measure the amplitude directly using
the RC circuit shown at http://davehouston.net/ESM1-TEST.htm
Robert Green
wrote in message news:Frank.Mc.Al...@no-mx.forums.nospam.com.au...
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Bobby would you believe not only had i a bent pin on my test Homevision
> unit but also on my installed hv unit..;-)
Damn. That's unusual. I wonder if there's something wrong with one of the
plugs that you're using. I've run into similar issues, but that's because I
was clipping a 4 pin unit into a 6 or 8 pin jack.
> Anyway i now have Jeffs xtb11 up and running great in Booster mode it
> reach,s no matter where i locate a plugin module ;-)......I couldnt get
> it to work though connected directly to Homevision ..
That's odd. Do you know what version of the board and PROM that's in the HV
unit? Did you check for a bent pin in the XTB? Maybe whatever's bending
pins in the HV units has done the same to Jeff's device.
>..didnt have enough
> time to do a thorough investigation as i also had to get another
> hardware device up and running which connects between Homevision and my
> CBUS lighting......
> Yes the 240v x10 prices are a bit high compared to the U.S. prices but
> then Oz prices for CBUS is much better (presently) than U.S.
> prices..;-)
Not suprising since CBUS seems to be more popular outside the US.
> Now that the Oz dollar is up around 88 US cents i think i will order a
> esm1 and see if i can mod it....I just assumed that the U.S. version
> may have used the mains frequency as a reference for its 120khz signal
> ???
Apparently not. But it's not an unreasonable assumption.
> Have ordered a 240v version maxi controller from Laser in the U.K. will
> i be able to use this to calibrate the ems1...???
If you're going to continue with the XTB, you'll need to recalibrate the
unit to match its much higher than normal output. I would just set it so
that the signal at an outlet farthest away from the XTB shows a few bars.
What you really want to know is relative, rather than absolute signal
strength. If it shows a few bars at the very end of a circuit, it should
still be able to register a drop if you put a new device on the line that
turns out to be a signal sucker.
Jeff's suggested putting it behind an X-10 filter to attenuate the XTB's
strong signal enough for it to register normally. This might be a better
approach since it will retain its sensitivity to noise and would allow non
boosted devices to register normally with the filter removed. Now that the
XTB is working, this might all be moot anyway, since you're probably not
going to experience low signal levels anywhere in a moderately sized house.
Still, I think it's a good thing to have.
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
> Frank Mc Alinden <Frank.Mc.Al...@no-mx.forums.nospam.com.au>
wrote:
>
> >Now that the Oz dollar is up around 88 US cents i think i will order a
> >esm1 and see if i can mod it....I just assumed that the U.S. version
> >may have used the mains frequency as a reference for its 120khz signal
> >???
>
> I'm not sure what you mean. The 120kHz bursts sync to the ZC whatever the
> line frequency. The ESM1 detects ZC and measures the amplitude of the
signal
> at ZC+500猶.
I think what he means is how does the unit discriminate between 120kHz
signals X-10 uses from other frequencies that might be on the powerline. I
assume they used some sort of tuned circuit that passes 120kHz signals and
rejects others just like an ordinary AM radio tuned to a certain broadcast
frequency. I don't believe that either the transmitters or receivers depend
on line frequency to determine the 120kHz frequency. That would most likely
be determined by the values of components used to create the oscillators and
receiving circuits. But I certainly can see why Frank might have made that
assumption, particularly since 120kHz is a multiple of 60Hz, albeit a very
high one
--
Bobby G.
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Bobby
>But I certainly can see why Frank might have made that
>assumption, particularly since 120kHz is a multiple of 60Hz, albeit a
very
>high one
Thats exactly what i thought ......Good to hear its not related to the
mains frequency...
Dave Houston
>If you're going to continue with the XTB, you'll need to recalibrate the
>unit to match its much higher than normal output. I would just set it so
>that the signal at an outlet farthest away from the XTB shows a few bars.
>What you really want to know is relative, rather than absolute signal
>strength. If it shows a few bars at the very end of a circuit, it should
>still be able to register a drop if you put a new device on the line that
>turns out to be a signal sucker.
I would not calibrate it to the XTB as you will then be unable to see
signals that, while low, are still more than adequate to trigger an X-10
receiver.
The earliest models sold here were calibrated for 10Vpp full scale which is
what most of the pre-CM11A transmitters output here. ELK now calibrates them
for 5Vpp full scale.
If we assume the frequency response is the same for 120kHz as it is for
50-60Hz, the replacement transformer will only output 1/2 the 120kHz
amplitude as compared to a 120VAC system.
Dave Houston
>I think what he means is how does the unit discriminate between 120kHz
>signals X-10 uses from other frequencies that might be on the powerline.
It doesn't discriminate very effectively. Any ~75-175kHz signal that occurs
during the X-10 window (i.e. the 1mS following ZC) is assumed to be X-10.
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Bobby
>Damn. That's unusual. I wonder if there's something wrong with one of
the
>plugs that you're using. I've run into similar issues, but that's
because I
>was clipping a 4 pin unit into a 6 or 8 pin jack
Im sure it was me that caused the bent pins somehow........
>That's odd. Do you know what version of the board and PROM that's in
the HV
>unit? Did you check for a bent pin in the XTB? Maybe whatever's
bending
>pins in the HV units has done the same to Jeff's device.
You talking about xtb ?? I have a xtb11 board which had a 1.10e
firmware and i reflashed it to the latest 1.12 ..? and this certainly
improved things from my last testing when i first built the unit......
No its not bent pins as i can control my test LD11 (din mount dimmer)
via the
direct connect method......
>Not suprising since CBUS seems to be more popular outside the US.
I think you,ll here more of CBUS in the states ,but i think at the
moment the prices in the states will be rather high....
>Now that the
>XTB is working, this might all be moot anyway, since you're probably
not
>going to experience low signal levels anywhere in a moderately sized
house.
>Still, I think it's a good thing to have.
Cant have enough tools and gadgets ;-) ....Im sure it,ll come in
Handy...
Here in Oz x10 stuff is now appearing in Bunnings with is a large
warehouse chain.....
Dave Houston
>I thought maybe some sort of multiplier circuitry was used to scale the
>60hz ref to 120khz.....
No. It's completely independent. Some transmitters generate ~120kHz with the
PIC (e.g. RR501) while most merely gate a free running oscillator circuit.
Dave Houston
>
>>Not suprising since CBUS seems to be more popular outside the US.
>
>I think you,ll here more of CBUS in the states ,but i think at the
>moment the prices in the states will be rather high....
Square D has just started marketing CBus here. I haven't checked their
pricing but they will have to compete with other premium systems.
http://www.squaredlightingcontrol.com/category.cfm/pt_id/1
Anybody building new and planning for hardwired automation should consider
it.
Robert Green
> Hopefully you have a 1203c motherboard ...??
Phew! The first time I (mis)read that I saw "hopefully you DON'T have a
1203C" because that's exactly what it says on the label for "Part Number."
That's good, I hope.
> Just watch plugging in the tw523 ;-)....(dont bend pins like i did) ....
I just examined the metal pins on the plug and they seem to extend a lot
further out than most jacks I've seen. I'll consider myself duly warned but
it may not do any good. I've broken far sturdier pins than that (PS/2
keyboard connectors, for one).
> Also ensure you get a decent regulated 9v power supply
I was going to use a Hwang unit that came from an old printer sharing box
but when I put it on the meter it read 15VDC even though the faceplate said
9VDC. I hunted around a little and found a Radio Shack variable voltage
supply that put out 9 volts. I realize that 15VDC is an unloaded reading,
but I thought I would err on the cautious side since lower voltage is less
likely to do damage than higher voltage. I don't believe either one of them
is regulated so I might end up ordering one that CSI recommends.
>..........Its a great Controller IMO
Well, you and John seem to like them alot. I like what I see so far. I
would say it's like running the Ocelot with Homeseer (in terms of ease of
programming), but it doesn't require a 24x7 PC to achieve that. Coupled
with the TV output, the overlay capability and add-ons like caller ID, it
looks to be a very nice, compact and highly capable product. And since I
got it and a bunch of X-10 modules for less than 1/3 list price, I'm pretty
happy. Considering my most recent Ebay experiences (a Nikon camera that had
to be turned off by removing the batteries because the power switch was
bad), I'm happy that it even booted up! Hopefully it does more than just
boot up, but I haven't gotten around to actually hooking it up to a PC and
loading the latest software.
--
Bobby G.
Robert Green
> "Robert Green" <ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote:
>
> >If you're going to continue with the XTB, you'll need to recalibrate the
> >unit to match its much higher than normal output. I would just set it so
> >that the signal at an outlet farthest away from the XTB shows a few bars.
> >What you really want to know is relative, rather than absolute signal
> >strength. If it shows a few bars at the very end of a circuit, it should
> >still be able to register a drop if you put a new device on the line that
> >turns out to be a signal sucker.
>
> I would not calibrate it to the XTB as you will then be unable to see
> signals that, while low, are still more than adequate to trigger an X-10
> receiver.
Why would you care about low, unboosted signals like that? If you plug
something like that into the outlets of a house with an XTB-II in the
repeater mode, it's going to boost the signal. If you wanted to measure the
output of those low output devices accurately you would have to place them
behind an X-10 filter to keep the XTB from seeing them.
It makes more sense to me to find the weakest XTB boosted signal you can
find and make sure that it shows up on the meter as a few bars. If a signal
sucker finds its way on line, you'll be able to see its effects easily. I
agree that in most cases you will care more about the weaker devices than
the stronger ones, as you say, but with the XTB-II installed the signal of
most things in the house is likely to "bend the needle" at the max end of
the ESM1 bargraph LED with no discrimination.
Setting it so that it registers the weakest signals in the house as a few
bars will likely mean that most normal transmissions in the house occur
within the bargraph's display range, which is what I would want to have from
a meter. The way the ESM1 flickers it's not likely you're going to get a
precise voltage reading anyway so it makes sense to calibrate it so that it
registers the highest and lowest signals somewhere on the scale. The
difficulty in all this is that you're trying to read from 0 - 20+ volts with
meter only designed to read from 0 to 5. That implies a compromise
somewhere along the line.
It all really depends on how he plans to use his meter. Will he use it to
check for signal suckers? Noise? Relative signal strengths? Jeff's
suggestion of adding a filter ahead of the wall wart would work, but it
makes the meter into more of a bolo than it already is and makes it a lot
harder to fit into tight outlet spaces. It's probably pretty easy to add a
small switch with a fixed resistor to provide two scales, one high, one low
and if I didn't have the Monterey, which reads accurately from 5mv to 4
volts, I probably won't bother dual scaling the ESM1.
--
Bobby G.
Jeff Volp
>
> Why would you care about low, unboosted signals like that? If you
> plug something like that into the outlets of a house with an XTB-II in
The "International" version of the XTB-II can only repeat the zero-crossing
burst as that bit is sent out the digital port. So, the basic repeater in
the XTB-II will not help in a 3-phase installation. The XTB-IIR will
transmit all 3 phases, but that unit is not available in a 50Hz version.
All the timing slots have to be changed for that mod. Since I can't
thoroughly test at 50Hz here, I am hesitant to offer a 50Hz version.
Jeff
Robert Green
That's interesting for a number of reasons. It shows that the difference in
powerline frequencies is not always negligible and that Frank was right to
be at least a little concerned about using 60Hz gear like the ESM1 on a 50Hz
system. I realize that the issues facing a repeater are far more complex
than those that might affect a signal strength meter, but it's still a good
reminder that things can get complicated.
IIRC, Frank implied that he didn't have any X-10 transmitters other than the
XTB-II and the connected HomeVision controller. I believe that's why he was
going to buy an independent maxi controller so that he could at least have a
standard transmitter he could use to calibrate the ESM1. If the XTB's going
to be the only device transmitting X-10 on the line, it still makes sense to
me to ensure that the ESM1 can read the weakest signals the XTB can output
rather than calibrating it to a maxi-controller that won't really be part of
the day-to-day operations.
--
Bobby G.
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Bobby
IMO its important to have a good 9v power supply with plenty of extra
current capacity available for future add ons you may connect to
it....
After a couple of years my original power supply started causing
problems with my Homevision and recently another Australian user sent
his hv to me to have a look at as he thought the internal battery was
shot but it was his power supply..replaced the power supply and alll
was ok....
>Hopefully it does more than just
>boot up, but I haven't gotten around to actually hooking it up to a PC
and
>loading the latest software.
Bobby a lot of the hv users are now using scheltes HVXL app to
programme Homevision as it a lot more flexible then the standard hv
software and has more features.......check it out...Im using it to
program my test hv unit...
http://hv.tclcode.com/
HTH
Frank
--
Frank Mc Alinden
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> (although there are some who think SMPS supplies are capable of
> spontaneously generating random X-10 signals but in the middle of the
> night).
Just as there are some who think noisy SM power supplies that CAN fire an
X-10 switch WON'T fire that switch immediately after the bad PS is plugged
in. Instead, that noisy PS will apparently wait until the wee hours of the
morning when no one is watching to wreak its havoc. (-: The long interval,
at least IMHO, is more suggestive of random noise eventually forming a
pattern that causes the switch to fire.
I might be more willing to embrace the Bloom model for *all* errant switch
activations if someone proposed a mechanism accounting for the switch
activating hours after plugging in the bad power supply.
While I DON'T doubt the Bloom model explains a lot of unintended switch
activations, I DO doubt that it satisfactorily explains phantom commands in
controller logs or switch activations that occur long after the suspect
power supply is put on line.
--
Bobby G.
Dave Houston
>While I DON'T doubt the Bloom model explains a lot of unintended switch
>activations, I DO doubt that it satisfactorily explains phantom commands in
>controller logs or switch activations that occur long after the suspect
>power supply is put on line.
As I earlier posted, in most of the incidents reported here either there are
no commands logged (as with Bruce's PS) or the logged commands can be traced
to a transmitter. I can only recall one or two reports where there were
logged commands that were truly of mysterious origins and they repeated the
same few commands all the time.
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Guys
Received my elk esm1 today ..;-)
Didnt have a 12v transformer at hand closest was a 10v ac 1amp .. So i
checked the actual voltage and it was 11.5 unloaded 11 loaded so thought
i would give it a try....
Connected the esm1 to a power strip that a plugin appliance module is
plugged into and got Homevision to send x10 commands to the appliance
module...The appliance module of course worked (thanks to Jeffs xtb
;-)...) but not a dicky bird from the esmi...no green x10 led no bars
on the red bar strip ;-(....
This was at my computer desk....
So i thought i would try the esm1 in the loungeroom on a power point
which has a lamp module plugged into....The lamp module responds and so
does the esm1 ;-)...I get the green led and 2 bars on the esm1.....So
looks like it needs calibrating....
I havent received my maxi controller from Laser as yet as i intend to
use that to calibrate the unit...as i think Dave mentioned if its CE
approved it should be txing 5v signal........
Bobby did you get round to trying the xtb connected directly to your
Homevision...???
Dave Houston
Buy a 12VAC transformer before calibrating. You might get by with 10V but
you're going to be pushing things. With the opamp in the ESM1 operating on
lower voltages, it won't amplify the signal as much as it's designed for and
you might end up either unable to get full scale or maybe operating on the
edge of stability.
Frank Mc Alinden <Frank.Mc.Al...@no-mx.forums.nospam.com.au> wrote:
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Dave
Took your advice and purchased a 12v ac adaptor ....I now get the green
led and 1 sometimes 2 bars on the bargraph when plugged into the power
strip next to my pc....(before nothing) In the Loungeroom it now
brings up 4 bars...so an improvement for sure....Still waiting on my
maxi controller...
Thanks
Frank Mc Alinden
Hi Guys
Just an update....
Received my Maxi controller from Laser today so i plugged it and the
Elk ESM1 into a power strip next to my pc and triggered some x10
signals on the Maxi to see how many bars would light up.....Only 2
would light up so i opened the ESM1 and preceded to adjust the pot...It
appeared to have been set fully in one direction....Adjusting it fully
in the other direction caused the x10 led and one bar to be lit most of
the time without any noticeable change when the Maxi send x10
commands....so i set the pot back to its original setting......
I took the Maxi and ESM1 and plugged them into an outlet in the kitchen
and when i trigger x10 commands from the Maxi i get full scale most of
the time ;-)
Looks like my pc +ups,s are loading the signal.....
Dave Houston
When Paul Beam was designing it, he read the X-10 literature and saw that it
said the signal level was 5Vpp. When he measured a few signals, he found
they were actually 10Vpp. Being new to X-10, he assumed that the 5Vpp was a
mistake and that they meant 5Vpk so he calibrated for full-scale at 10Vpp.
When ELK bought the rights to the design, they changed the calibration to
read full-scale at 5Vpp.
I don't think there's any limit in the US/Canada but CE limits PLC signals
to 5Vpp and most European modules have been redesigned in the past 7-8 years
to meet those requirements.
There's also the issue of attenuation by the 120:12 or 230:12 transformer.
Since it depends both on the DC level (based on the AC input) and on the
bandwidth characteristics of the transformer, it's impossible to predict
without knowing the transformer details - calibrating to some known level is
the only way to establish a baseline. Of course, the baseline can be (within
the limits of the circuitry) anything you desire but you now can relate any
less than full scale reading to a known level.
I'm glad to finally have confirmation that changing the transformer works. I
was sure it would but its always better to have a thread like this (by a
surviving hacker ;) to point future wannabe hackers to.
The output levels of some US/Canada transmitters are shown here...
http://davehouston.org/x10-sig.htm
Most of the newer modules are closer to 5Vpp while all of the older designs
were 10Vpp.
The great value of the ESM1 is, as you've discovered, that it takes the
guesswork out of the mix and allows you to quickly determine what is
attenuating the signal.
http://davehouston.net http://davehouston.org
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