Home Automation:How to remotely control Windows(Open/Close) based on temperature inside/outside.
Keith Kemp
to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
extremely warm.
If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
If the temperature outside is colder I would like a window to be opened.
Fans would also be controller in the different scenarios to using X10
devices.
The major problem that I'm having right now is how to open the window. The
only requirement on the window opener device would be a simple way to hook
it up with my X10 network.
The other less major problem is how to respond to temperature and activate
different devices, AC if to warm, etc. I have seen a couple solutions for
this problem but I do many are expensive and/or limiting.
I would really appreciate any advice, direction, suggestions, products, etc
that would help me solve this problem.
If I can successfully complete this project and keep it affordable I would
like to publish the info I have learned.
Thanks
Keith Kemp
PO Box 906
Fall City, WA 98024
kk...@nwcr.net
Tom Smythe
: I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would like
: to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
: extremely warm.
: If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
: I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
: when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
Actually, the criterion for when to draw in outside air should not be
based solely on temperature. It needs to be based on both outside
temperature and dewpoint, the temperature of wet-bulb thermometer. The
dewpoint drops as the humidity drops. It is dewpoint primarily which
determines the comfort level, typical HVAC systems will switch to outside
air intake only if the outside temperature is both below 78F and dewpoint
below 60F. Under higher humidity conditions is not productive to use
outside air. Notice how much harder an air conditioner works on a humid
day than a dry one at the same temperature, much of the energy in cooling
goes to moisture removal and not just lowering the air temperature.
Another concern is air quality, if outside air is being used there can be
much more dust, pollen drawn in which could shorten the life of the
computers. Using an adequate air filter is important.
Keith Kemp
Tom Smythe <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:1999062909...@berlin.neuropa.net...
> Keith Kemp <nw...@premier1.net> wrote:
> : I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would
like
> : to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
> : extremely warm.
>
> : If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
>
> : I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
> : when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
>
> Actually, the criterion for when to draw in outside air should not be
> based solely on temperature. It needs to be based on both outside
> temperature and dewpoint, the temperature of wet-bulb thermometer. The
> dewpoint drops as the humidity drops. It is dewpoint primarily which
> determines the comfort level, typical HVAC systems will switch to outside
> air intake only if the outside temperature is both below 78F and dewpoint
> below 60F. Under higher humidity conditions is not productive to use
> outside air. Notice how much harder an air conditioner works on a humid
> day than a dry one at the same temperature, much of the energy in cooling
> goes to moisture removal and not just lowering the air temperature.
Point taken but I would be happy when the scenario that I setup but I would
not mind any suggestions on how to setup such a system.
L. M. Rappaport
and closing their casement windows (and skylights), but I don't
believe they have anything available for double hung. Interfacing
with X-10 should be fairly easy.
Larry
--
ra...@lmr.com
"Keith Kemp" <nw...@premier1.net> wrote (with possible editing):
>I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would like
>to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
>extremely warm.
>
>If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
>
>I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
>when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
>
Tom Smythe
: I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
: when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
: If the temperature outside is colder I would like a window to be opened.
One idea might be to make your entire unit from a "hacked" window air
conditioner. Most have some kind of damper setting which allows the unit
to draw in outside air. You could install some kind of motorized control
which would operate the A/C's damper function, then wire separate X-10
controllers to the fan and the compressor. For outside air, open the
vent and switch only the fan on but not the compressior. Probably want
to wire it so the compressor won't turn on unless the fan is running to
prevent damage.
Also, if the outside dewpoint is lower than inside, but still above the
comfort level, it would be an advantage to intake outside air and run the
compressor, it would take less energy to cool it.
One thing is that the air vent functions vary depending on what model of
window A/C you have. On some, the vent does not really produce much
outside air intake, the control is more for show than anything.
Keith Kemp
opens would work.
L. M. Rappaport <ra...@lmr.com> wrote in message
news:3778b077...@beavis.kronos.com...
> What kind of window? Anderson makes motorized controls for opening
> and closing their casement windows (and skylights), but I don't
> believe they have anything available for double hung. Interfacing
> with X-10 should be fairly easy.
>
> Larry
> --
> ra...@lmr.com
>
>
> "Keith Kemp" <nw...@premier1.net> wrote (with possible editing):
>
> >I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would
like
> >to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
> >extremely warm.
> >
> >If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
> >
> >I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
> >when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
> >
> >If the temperature outside is colder I would like a window to be opened.
> >
Keith Kemp
Tom Smythe <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
> Keith Kemp <nw...@premier1.net> wrote:
>
> : I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
> : when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
>
> : If the temperature outside is colder I would like a window to be opened.
>
> conditioner. Most have some kind of damper setting which allows the unit
> to draw in outside air. You could install some kind of motorized control
> which would operate the A/C's damper function, then wire separate X-10
> controllers to the fan and the compressor. For outside air, open the
> vent and switch only the fan on but not the compressior. Probably want
> to wire it so the compressor won't turn on unless the fan is running to
> prevent damage.
The window I would like to open is a large horizontal window so putting an
AC unit is no good.
>
> Also, if the outside dewpoint is lower than inside, but still above the
> comfort level, it would be an advantage to intake outside air and run the
> compressor, it would take less energy to cool it.
Yeah I as a few others if they dew point is higher but the temperature is
lower I would be decreasing the comfort instead of helping.
> One thing is that the air vent functions vary depending on what model of
> window A/C you have. On some, the vent does not really produce much
> outside air intake, the control is more for show than anything.
>
That's exactly how mine is it opens this 1" x 1" hole to the outside which
really doesn't do much.
Claus
http://www.pva.org/pn/9810hous/
(Paralyzed Vets of America - they've done alot of research into automatic
window opening, Double hung windows just don't lend themselves to automatic
opening.
Claus
Keith Kemp wrote in message ...
Keith Kemp
is a small expanding and contracting type device that would push and pull
the window closed and opened. If you have seen the sliding door openers it
could be identical to that only on a much smaller scale.
Claus <claus...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:7lb8te$fkd$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Claus
lift/screw mechanism is concealed by the door panel. You have no such
luxury with double hung windows. If you lift from anywhere other than the
center the lifter will bind. Windows don't slide very easily. To make it
work you'd at least need two long worm screws embedded on each side of the
window frame to lift the window evenly.
Try this simple experiment. Open the window an inch or two using the center
pull while trying to sense the force it took to move it those few inches.
Now hook your fingers under the window at one of the very edges and judge
how much more force it takes to move the window up two more inches, if you
even can!
Keith Kemp
playing with it and I don't think it would take much force to open and close
it.
I'm not to worried about concealing such a device.
Do you have some good ideas on how to make it work with my window?
Claus <claus...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:7lbfb3$4i8$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
Keith Kemp
Stephen W. Jones
the automatic car antennas and use the mechanism from it.
Keith Kemp
and were the parts could be obtained? I'm not all that technically
inclined.
Thanks!
Si Ballenger <s...@vnet.net> wrote in message
news:37798093....@166.82.1.9...
> Get a manual tire pump and make your self a low pressure
> hydraulic cylinder (spring or bungie to close, or another
> cylinder going the other way). Use solenoid valves (maybe
> electric sprinkler valves) to port/unport air (or faucet water)
> to them.
>
> On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:14:38 -0700, "Keith Kemp"
> <nw...@premier1.net> wrote:
>
> >Ahh, I see what you mean, but I have a HORZINTAL window and I was just
Jon Welfringer
I'm amazed at how many times in this thread you've said you have HORIZONTAL windows NOT vertical /
double hung windows, and yet all solutions refer you to double hung windows! It's nice to see you
are persistant and are trying hard for a solution.
I've thought about this problem myself. My initial idea is to use a pully type system with possibly
a BBQ rotisserie motor. I've thought of placing this at the top of the window and conceal it with
some type of decorative valance.
In this design, you would have a pully installed at each end of the window. [* | *] The pull
line would be attached to the vertical edge of the slider window. Reversing of the motor would
open/close as needed.
What do you think?
- Jon
Keith Kemp wrote:
>
> Ahh, I see what you mean, but I have a HORIZONTAL window and I was just
Keith Kemp
Jon Welfringer <Welfr...@Access1.net> wrote in message
news:37795FCF...@Access1.net...
> Keith,
>
> I'm amazed at how many times in this thread you've said you have
HORIZONTAL windows NOT vertical /
> double hung windows, and yet all solutions refer you to double hung
windows! It's nice to see you
> are persistant and are trying hard for a solution.
Haha Jon, Thanks! I was wondering if I was the only one know which kind of
windows I have :)
> I've thought about this problem myself. My initial idea is to use a pully
type system with possibly
> a BBQ rotisserie motor. I've thought of placing this at the top of the
window and conceal it with
> some type of decorative valance.
>
> In this design, you would have a pully installed at each end of the
window. [* | *] The pull
> line would be attached to the vertical edge of the slider window.
Reversing of the motor would
> open/close as needed.
>
> What do you think?
>
> - Jon
I think thats a great idea! The only problem is that I'm no good at making
things like that and would probabaly fail miserably :)
Keith Kemp
to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
extremely warm.
If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
If the temperature outside is colder I would like a window to be opened.
Fans would also be controller in the different scenarios to using X10
devices.
The major problem that I'm having right now is how to open the window. The
only requirement on the window opener device would be a simple way to hook
it up with my X10 network.
The other less major problem is how to respond to temperature and activate
different devices, AC if to warm, etc. I have seen a couple solutions for
this problem but I do many are expensive and/or limiting.
I would really appreciate any advice, direction, suggestions, products, etc
that would help me solve this problem.
If I can successfully complete this project and keep it affordable I would
like to publish the info I have learned.
I have been given this suggestion
"Get a manual tire pump and make your self a low pressure
hydraulic cylinder (spring or bungie to close, or another
cylinder going the other way). Use solenoid valves (maybe
electric sprinkler valves) to port/unport air (or faucet water)
to them."
This sounds nice but I'm not exactly technically inclined and I don't know
how I could build such a thing to be controlled by X10 stuff.
Stephen Young
1 800 488 3407
12v dc model (power it by a battery charger if you need to control it by 110v
ac) 27" travel for $69.95
with built in limit swiches. Just use an X-10 thermostat to control a relay
which powers the actuator.
Keith Kemp wrote:
> I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would like
> to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
> extremely warm.
>
> If this message does not apply to you PLEASE DELETE IT.
>
> I have a window AC that I would like to us in this cooling solution ONLY
> when the temperature outside is warmer than the temperature inside.
>
> If the temperature outside is colder I would like a window to be opened.
>
> Fans would also be controller in the different scenarios to using X10
> devices.
>
> The major problem that I'm having right now is how to open the window. The
> only requirement on the window opener device would be a simple way to hook
> it up with my X10 network.
>
(snip)
Keith Kemp
----- Original Message -----
From: <ltur...@ix.netcom.com>
To: <kk...@nwcr.net>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:29 AM
Subject: Home Automation:How to remotely control Windows(Open/Close) based
on temperature inside/outside.
> Hi, Keith.
>
> Can you help the group a little with some more info?
>
> Is the window the only one in the room? This might make it a means
> of emergency exit in case of fire. How complicated do you want this
> mechanism to be if you need to remove it fast?
>
> What kind of windows do you have?
>
> Sash? Sliding glass? Hinged?
Horizontal Sliding
>
> What kind of actuator? Hand crank?
Not sure what you mean
> What kind of latch?
Umm, it doesn't latch on its own with the window is close.
> What level of force (does the fishing scale indicate) will reliably
> open and close the window?
>
Not sure and of course I don't have a fishing scale :(
> Could you re-phrase your question as if your audience doesn't have
> blueprints to the room and cannot see the inside and outside views
> of the window in question? :^>
>
I'm not exactly sure what other info you need.
> The folks in rec.crafts.metalworking are a helpful lot and they need
> all the info before they can be of much help.
>
> Best regards
>
> --Len
>
>
Mike Graham
>I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would like
>to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
>extremely warm.
This is not normally the province of automation. You can get adjustable
cylinders that open and closed windows according to the expansion of the gas
in the cylinder. They're used on greenhouses. No electricity, no
high-tech, but they work great.
--
Mike Graham, mikegraham at sprint dot ca
Caledon, Ontario, Canada (just NW of Toronto).
Raiser of animals. Weldor of metals. Driver of off-road vehicles.
Writer of FAQs. Keeper of the faith, and all around okay guy.
< homepage currently off-line due to change of ISP; back soon >
Mark Atanovich
mikeg...@sprint.ca (Mike Graham) writes:
> On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:28:26 -0700, Keith Kemp wrote:
> >I have been playing with some X10 home automation products and I would like
> >to use them to solve a cooling problem in my computer room which can get
> >extremely warm.
>
> This is not normally the province of automation. You can get adjustable
> cylinders that open and closed windows according to the expansion of the gas
> in the cylinder. They're used on greenhouses. No electricity, no
> high-tech, but they work great.
Yes, but don't you have to run a supply of compressed air?
Mark Atanovich
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad
judgement."
Claus
when hot (to pop open a *hinged* window) and then lowers the flap shut when
the gas in the cylinder cools. It's a closed system but I'm dubious about
them generating enough energy to close a sliding casement window. A flap on
hinge takes a lot less force to raise than it does to slide a casement
window. I could be way wrong and would sure be interested in learning the
outcome of such an experiment. The biggest problem even if they do work is
that a hot expanding cylinder can't be controlled by any sensor arrangement
so when it's cool *and* rainy it's gonna open your window for you, like it
or not.
Claus V.
Mark Atanovich wrote in message <7lg8su$ifs$1...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>...
Mike Graham
>Yes, but don't you have to run a supply of compressed air?
No. The gas in the cylinder is small when cold, gets big when hot. The
big gas pushes the window open. This is only meant for opening a 'flap'
window a couple of inches for ventilation; it won't give you a foot of
opening or anything.
Jim Foster
> Ahh, I see what you mean, but I have a HORZINTAL window and I was just
> playing with it and I don't think it would take much force to open and close
> it.
>
> I'm not to worried about concealing such a device.
>
> Do you have some good ideas on how to make it work with my window?
Keith,
I recently bought a dome house and the previous owner installed some pneumatic
cylinders in the cuppola windows (some 30-feet above the floor) to open and
close the windows for ventilation. The cylinders are probably 1.5" in diameter,
with a rod that is connected to a bracket at the bottom of the (horizontal)
sliding windows. Travel is only about 16" on a 24" wide pane, but is quite
adequate. Longer-stroke cylinders can probably be purchased.
For a power source, there is a low-cost (probably $100) paint-sprayer type air
compressor in a closet. For controls, there is a remote power switch to turn on
the compressor, then toggle-type pneumatic valves located in a wall panel to
open or close each window. These could be paralleled or replaced with
low-voltage pneumatic solenoid valves (which I intend to do someday).
If you want more info, email me and I'll send some sketches/photos/notes on the
system....
Jim Foster (jfo...@adnc.com)
Don Foreman
I suppose suggestions on how to build something aren't very
useful to you. Sounds like you're looking for an
inexpensive "off the shelf" solution.
There are electric drapery openers available that you could
drive off an X-10 module. They might have enough power
to slide your window and might not be too hard to adapt.
Have a look at a garage door opener. If you have a
machinist friend, building a scaled-down version of that
would be pretty easy to do. Screwdrive would be easiest --
use a length of 1/2" or 3/4" allthread, a nut, a low-speed
motor (surprlus store), coupla limit switches. You might
need a little hands-on help from a technically-inclined
friend. I'd think a woodworker could build something like
that, and it'd look neat. You might need a little help with
thrust bearings; simple bronze oilite bushings would work
fine. Good hardware stores have a selection of oillite
bushings.
Request a catalog from Small Parts, Inc, Miami Lakes FL.
305-557-8222. Look at the various chains, sprockets,
timing belts, racks and pinions. See if it gives you any
ideas -- maybe you're more technically-inclined than you
think you are when it's your own problem you're working on.
I won't design your dingus for you, but I'll be glad to
critique your design and maybe even machine a couple of
parts so you or a woodworking friend could build it.
I offer you two hours of free machineshop services
(equivalent to about nine seconds in a professional
machineshop) and free design critique. But you gotta
design it, and you (possibly trading services with a local
friend that you may not know yet) gotta build it. Get
busy!
Given the reliability I've observed with X-10, you might
think about keeping the door closed and not leaving anything
near the window that might be rain-damaged. You WILL find
the window open evenetually when it isn't supposed to be!
Regards from Foreman, dfor...@Ugoldengate.net.
Please remove U from email address to reply
Claus
the big picture. As I see it, using X-10 to do this is a disaster
invitation. X-10 behaves very badly during storms where lots of on-offs hit
the powerline. When's the LEAST likely time you want a window to open
exposing room contents to the elements? When you've got a really bad and
windy thunderstorm, the kind that can dump gallons of water into your house
through an open window. Around here I've seen the wind blow water in a
completely horizontal motion. And that's precisely when X-10 is at its
quirkiest (at least for me).
A self-opening window would mean security as well as rain problems. No
offense to the original poster but the concept has some pretty severe flaws
that might result in its abandonment once implemented. Why not think it
through and see if the concept really works? What happens when you want to
sell the house (if you own) or have to face the landlord (if you rent)?
Custom-built window openers aren't going to add to the value of your home.
FWIW, I use motors to open my basement casement windows and draw fresh air
into the house using the same premise but a horizontal casement window acts
as its own rainflap when it's opened. If they fail in the open position
they still offer a lot better protection against rain than a sliding window
would. The rain sensor and motor kits for them are a fairly cheap item. I
think I got mine at Smarthome.
Claus V.
Don Foreman wrote in message <37802a45...@news.goldengate.net>...
>You said that you're "not exactly technically inclined", so
>I suppose suggestions on how to build something aren't very
>useful to you. Sounds like you're looking for an
>inexpensive "off the shelf" solution.
>