Vantage vs. Lutron
Mike
automation
system? I'm preparing to specify a system to automate lighting, solar shades, zone heating
system, curtains and a few other functions in a 3000 sq. foot home. I've narrowed the
selection down to these two systems.
It's important that the various functions can be programmed using well-written software
that is powerful and versatile. Also, the light dimmers should be of the highest quality
to minimize buzzing, flicker and increase reliability and longevity.
Which system has the edge here? Any feedback appreciated.
Mike M.
root
>Does anyone here have enough know-how to compare Lutron Homeworks with
>the Vantage
>automation
>system? I'm preparing to specify a system to automate lighting, solar
If Allan Yates of Intelligent Interiors doesn't see and followup on
your post, then I'd recommend you might email him directly on the
subject at: sa...@i2automation.com
I've found Allan extremely knowledgable, helpful, patient, etc., and
I've made a number of purchases from him despite the fact that I'm in
the States while he's in Canada. My *only* disappointment is that
he doesn't live in my neck of the woods.
Disc: I've no relationship with Allan Yates, Intelligent Interiors,
Vantage, Lutron, etc., etc. other than being a happy customer.
Allan Yates
order):
- Nicer looking keypads
- Fully integrated wireless components. Anything you can do from a wired
component, you can do from a wireless one. No system limits.
- All devices sit on a two conductor bus (including controllers, centralized
dimmers, local dimmers, RS-232 ports, etc)
- Dimmer modules and controller just plug into enclosure. No wire to
connect/disconnect.
- More new products being introduced each year (eg light sensor)
- Full control over LEDs on each button (ie they can show the status of
garage doors
- Full programming software (if/then/else statements, loops, etc).
Downloadable from Vantage's website.
- New features constantly being added to programming software.
I recommend centralized dimming over local dimming for a few reasons (though
Vantage supports both):
- Keypads won't get warm at all
- Larger higher quality components in the central dimmer
- Easier wiring
- No 120V and low voltage in the same box so the inspector has no excuse to
complain
- Multiple loads in a single room only require a single gang keypad, rather
than 1 gang per load
Disclaimer: I am a Vantage dealer, but not a Lutron dealer, so I may be
biased :)
Allan.
Intelligent Interiors
http://www.i2automation.com
Installation, Sales, Service, Parts for Crestron, Vantage, Elan, Sonance,
Niles, Atlantic Technology, HAI, OnQ, and many others
"Mike" <m...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:wp1r9.44319$gr6.44721@rwcrnsc53...
Ken Jesser
run to a central panel isn't cost effective (walk-in closets,
bathrooms, etc.). It's easier to just to install the dimmer and run
low voltage wiring to it rather than having to run the low voltage
wiring for a keypad and a high voltage home run for, basically, a
single light bulb.
Ken
"Allan Yates" <aya...@i2automation.com> wrote in message news:<pv2t9.16232$V21.446702@news>...
Ryan Erickson
Although I'm not a Lutron or Vantage dealer, when I worked for AMX a few
years ago, I worked on Lutron's HomeWorks Interactive (HWI).
It can do most if not all of the things Allan mentions that Vantage can do.
> - Nicer looking keypads
This is personal preference. We had both companies' keypads for testing /
development at AMX. I preferred the look of the Lutron keypads.
> - All devices sit on a two conductor bus (including controllers,
centralized
> dimmers, local dimmers, RS-232 ports, etc)
Lutron also works on a two-wire distributed bus.
> - More new products being introduced each year (eg light sensor)
Lutron is also always expanding and improving their line.
> - Full control over LEDs on each button (ie they can show the status of
> garage doors
You can also control individual LEDs on keypads in Lutron. (On / Off /
Blink / Fast Blink)
> - Full programming software (if/then/else statements, loops, etc).
> Downloadable from Vantage's website.
Lutron's software may only be available from a Lutron dealer. I don't know.
Bottom line, both are very nice systems. Most of the differences are
cosmetic, and depend on the homeowner's preferences.
The one big advantage I associate with Lutron is that they are a much more
established company (established in 1961!), so there is *possibly* less
chance of parts or support not being available in the future. They also
offer more color choices for their faceplates, although I think the great
majority of users would stick with either white or ivory.
I'm sure that either choice would be great.
Good Luck,
Ryan Erickson
use...@ericksonfamily.com
http://www.ericksonfamily.com
Robert L. Bass
I have had the misfortune of trying to deal with Lutron a number of years
ago. Their stuff would not work with anything else on the market at the
time. When I tried to get tech support from Lutron I spent a long time on
the phone, mostly on hold, with zero results. We ended up ripping it out
and rerouting the cables to a dimming closet where I installed lots of new
toys.
It's entirely possible that things are much better today. They might have
very good products. I'm not selling them though.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
"Ken Jesser" <kje...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:7ce693e8.02102...@posting.google.com...
Mike Nolan
>Which system has the edge here? Any feedback appreciated.
I cannot speak to Lutron much, we looked at it but chose Vantage.
We have a Vantage Vision system installed in our house, construction of
which began in 1996 and was completed in early 1997.
Vantage froze development on that line when their newer product line
came out in early 1997, in other words, within a few months of when
our system was installed. Also, they make a big deal out of having
a five year warranty on their newer products, but only offered two years
on the Vision. This became apparent when we had an eight unit load
module fail in the 3rd year. Yes, they had the part in stock, but
the replacement cost us around over $500, as I recall. I can only hope
that they will continue to have replacement parts in stock for the
forseeable future.
Having said that, we are quite happy with what we can do with the Vision,
it fulfils the purpose for which it was purchased. But all of the new
products (such as wireless panels) were not backported to the Vision, so
we cannot take advantage of them.
Vantage programming is somewhat arcane, and as far as I know that did
not change with the newer product line. Sometimes it seems like the
only way to accomplish something that seems fairly simple is to take
a very indirect approach. But we do some fairly sophisticated things,
so it generally CAN be done.
--
Mike Nolan
Mike
Robert, Ryan and Mike N. The responses pretty much confirmed the tentative decision
already reached based upon gleaning information from the Web. I will be going with the
Vantage system for it's power, flexibility and quality software..
A few specific comments follow:
Allan, nice plug for Vantage, you listed many of the reasons that had me leaning towards
Vantage in the first place.
Ken, I have been struggling with a few assorted closet lights, etc. and wondering if it is
worth it to create separate control circuits and associated home runs for such
unimportant, individual lights. I imagine I could just wire all these extraneous
unimportant lights into one breaker with regular old-fasioned wall switches (or door
actuated switches) to conserve dimming/switching modules and reduce the number of home
runs but then I wouldn't have whole house lighting control. I wonder if there are any
solutions that fall in-between the old fasioned way and complete control? As it is I'm
leaning towards just creating a separate control circuit for each of these closet lights
and eating the expense.
Ryan, I'm not completely familiar with either Lutron or Vantage but I believe you are
misleading on a couple of points.
>> - Full control over LEDs on each button (ie they can show the status of
>> garage doors
>
>You can also control individual LEDs on keypads in Lutron. (On / Off /
>Blink / Fast Blink)
I have read you can control some features of the Lutron LEDs but I don't believe they can
be assigned to other events, if/then statements, etc. as Vantage LEDs can. Please correct
me if I'm wrong about that.
>This is personal preference. We had both companies' keypads for testing /
>development at AMX. I preferred the look of the Lutron keypads.
I doubt you had the full complement of Vantage keypad styles and colors with which to make
a valid comparison. There are four different keypad and button styles, two different
faceplate styles with 10 standard finishes and unlimited custom finishes and 9 standard
button colors. With choices like satin chrome, polished chrome, oil rubbed bronze, black
anodized, clear anodized, polished brass, almond, ivory, etc., it would be hard to fail to
find something to please almost anyone.
Mike N., I think Vantage did release new control software recently but I don't think it's
compatible with the older Vision equipment. I wouldn't describe the new software as
"arcane" You should download it from their website and compare it to what you are
currently using.
I have downloaded the Vantage software from their website and was very impressed with it's
ease of use, clear and concise instructions and help files and the logical and orderly
design and implementation. I would be surprised if the Lutron software (do they have any?)
would be so slick.
Again, thanks to everyone who provided an opinion.
Mike
Charlie Derk
for Lutron, I wrote most of the software for the HomeWorks Interactive
System, so I can answer just about any question you fire at me...
- Nicer Looking keypads
As someone mentioned, it is personally preference. We have a newer keypad
(introduced within the last 2 years called seeTouch). Its button design and
backlit engraving allows you to see the buttons as well as the text on them
day or night at various viewing angles.
-Fully integrated wireless components
If you haven't heard yet, we launched a major addition to the HomeWorks
line. We added the niceties of the RF products that we have for RadioRA to
the HomeWorks family. HomeWorks now has RF keypads, both in wall and table
top. We have a Car Visor Control that you can activate lights from your
car. We also have a lamp dimmer control that gives you dimming at the lamp
or from a keypad.
-All devices sit on the same 2 conductor bus.
We have multiple busses for one main reason - system response time. With
each bus having its own processor we can keep resources spread evenly across
each bus. This greatly increases system response.
- More new products being introduced each year.
I'm not sure how you figured this one out. We just introduced over a dozen
new products just for HomeWorks Interactive last month
-Full control over LED status
We have this feature as well. I can have a button on a keypad that turns my
kitchen light on, but the LED follows the status of my Garage door.
-Full programming software.
Not sure what this means, but we have a design and programming tool that
runs on a PC that is used to program the hardware
- New features constantly being added to the software
I worked on developing the software tool for 4 years. We probably have 4 to
8 releases of the software each year. Most of the releases are due to the
fact that we are constantly getting feedback from our customers asking for
new features.
On the topic of central dimming versus local dimming... each one has its
advantages
Central dimming
-----------------
- Minimizes wall clutter
- Maximum flexibility at wall stations
- You typically get higher wattage dimmers from modules than in-wall
versions
Local Dimming
----------------
- There is a familiar looking device on a wall. This is great if you have
guests over frequently. Most people who having been around keypads can be
intimidated by them... a dimmer is a dimmer. After you use it once, you
know exactly how it operates.
- Failsafe Operation... if the system stops responding, a local dimmer will
continue to operate the way a dimmer should
- Pre-wire capability. You can prewire for local dimmers... not for
modules. If you put some standard toggle switches in, run the low
voltage... you can always go back and put the dimmer in later.
Someone else mentioned it, but its true, Lutron has been in the lighting
control business for over 40 years. The owner of our company invented the
solid-state dimmer.
I know this was a long post, but I figured since Vantage got a good plug, we
should too.
If you have any questions, feel free to email me personally, or post a
message here.
Thanks,
Charlie Derk
"Mike" <m...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:xVrt9.66071$La5.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Charlie Derk
Go to the Patent and Trademark Office's website (http://www.uspto.gov) and
do a search on how many patents we have...
Its pretty impressive.
Charlie
"Allan Yates" <aya...@i2automation.com> wrote in message
news:pv2t9.16232$V21.446702@news...
Mike
though I previously spent considerable time trying to learn as much as I could about both
systems on the WWW. In fact, one of the strongest motivators for me to go with Vantage
was the ability for me to download the Vantage software and play with it with no strings
attached. It was immediately apparent that it was very well thought out stuff. Is this
possible to do with Lutron software?
> - Nicer Looking keypads
> As someone mentioned, it is personally preference. We have a newer keypad
> (introduced within the last 2 years called seeTouch). Its button design and
> backlit engraving allows you to see the buttons as well as the text on them
> day or night at various viewing angles.
That sounds like a nice touch Charlie, I like it! I don't think Vantage has that.
> -Fully integrated wireless components
> If you haven't heard yet, we launched a major addition to the HomeWorks
> line. We added the niceties of the RF products that we have for RadioRA to
> the HomeWorks family. HomeWorks now has RF keypads, both in wall and table
> top. We have a Car Visor Control that you can activate lights from your
> car. We also have a lamp dimmer control that gives you dimming at the lamp
> or from a keypad.
Yes, Vantage offers all that also.
> -All devices sit on the same 2 conductor bus.
> We have multiple busses for one main reason - system response time. With
> each bus having its own processor we can keep resources spread evenly across
> each bus. This greatly increases system response.
Now I'm curious. Are you saying that I will find the Vantage to respond too slowly in a
typical residential application? I had heard it was very fast, that I wouldn't notice any
unwanted delays.
Now I have to ask, do the Lutron Homeworks wall switches also only need a low voltage,
two-wire, non-polarized connection to provide connectivity as well as electrical power to
the node? I know this is all Vantage requires which I think is really cool.
> -Full control over LED status
> We have this feature as well. I can have a button on a keypad that turns my
> kitchen light on, but the LED follows the status of my Garage door.
That's good to know, I thought only Vantage offered this.
> -Full programming software.
> Not sure what this means, but we have a design and programming tool that
> runs on a PC that is used to program the hardware
Is it windows based? Where can I try it out?
Thanks for the comparison between local and centralized switching/dimming. It's amazing
how hard it is for some people who work in the building industry to understand centralized
dimming/switching. It's as if their brains are so used to the old concepts it's almost
impossible for them to think about wiring/switching in a new light.
> I know this was a long post, but I figured since Vantage got a good plug, we
> should too.
>
> If you have any questions, feel free to email me personally, or post a
> message here.
Thanks for keeping the coverage balanced Charlie.
Can anyone compare the cost of two comparable residential systems, one with Vantage and
one with Lutron Homeworks? I've already priced the Vantage equipment but I've not been
able to obtain any pricing on the Lutron equipment so I don't know how they compare $wise.
Mike
Charlie Derk
Typically the software is distributed to our dealers. Most homeowners are
not interested in the programming software. We do have a download page for
our dealers, but if you are interested in it I can certainly send you some
software.
"Mike" <m...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:HEJt9.74703$md1.13526@sccrnsc03...
Lee Reiswig, Jr.
designing a third. I'm very pleased with Homeworks Interactive. Bullletproof
system and components. I do all the programming myself ( I'm a retired IBM
programmer). Homeworks can do all the things you mention. Some functions are
integrated and some are done through relay contact closures. You have
extensive choices as to lighting controls, both centralized and distributed.
All this comes at a price, though. Lutron components are not cheap but they
are reliable and will perform as advertised. Lutron technical support is the
best in the industry.
I don't have direct experience with Vantage. I believe, while quite
different, they can accomplish the same capabilities. My last builder was a
Vantage rep and he and his customers were very satisfied with their
capabilities. They are not known for their technical support.
A serious consideration should be a locally available installer. Both
systems have coverage limitations and you'll want sombody nearby that can
install and debug on your system.
Lastly, in the spirit of open disclosure, I was so impressed by the
Homeworks system that I agreed to appear in their Product Brochure with a
testimonial. I received no compensation or consideration for this and, if
asked, I'd gladly do it again.
Lee Reiswig
"Mike" <m...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:wp1r9.44319$gr6.44721@rwcrnsc53...
Charlie Derk
Are you building a new home or are you going to be retrofitting this system
into an existing home. It may sounds trivial, but there are wired systems
and wireless (RF or PLC) systems.
Both Lutron and Vantage have products that will suit the needs of either -
but its something that definately needs to be known up front.
3000 sq feet sounds like its about the right size for Lutron's RadioRA
system which is an RF-based product. The HomeWorks Interactive system will
work, but is probably overkill for that size home. Do you know how many
zones of lighting you need?
As far as high quality dimmers is concerned, well, I can't speak for
Vantage, but Lutron invented the dimmer as we know it today. Lutron is ISO
certified and has a 24/7/365 support number for technical assistance in the
event that you need help installing, configuring, etc a system.
Regards,
Charlie
The Electrician
The only systems I haven't worked with are the original Vantage Vision and the original Homeworks because well, they're really really old and I couldn't even run the software or find parts so he best thing there is to get a new upgrade. Anyway, I hope if another homeowner stumbles on this thread, I can uh, shed some light on the topic.
First a little history. It used to be that Lighting Automation was VERY expensive. Like unbelievably expensive and only those with 4 million dollar houses could afford them. They were also very clunky and essentially just let you put in some scenes, all via wired control wires and local dimming. Soon, installers and decorators started hiding the dimmers to have a "clean" look so centralized panel based systems became the status symbol for the very rich.
There were only 3 companies that did this - Lutron in PA, Lite-Touch in UT, and Vantage that was also in UT. Lutron was the big name because well, they invented the dimmer and much like with IBM, nobody ever got fired by installing Lutron's products. Lite-Touch to me seemed a little outdated and Vantage's products seemed like a much better version of Lite-Touch.
I'm not going to lie - I loved Vantage. They were small, very scrappy, enthusiastic, and it was easy to have a relationship with their support, engineers, and sales and customer support people. I also loved their panel systems over Lutron because it was modular and the addressing was far easier than Lutron's then antiquated dip switch addressing. To this day you have to manually set the addresses on RPMs and such with Lutron.
Don't get me wrong, I loved Lutron too but they seemed more like the jocks because they had a much bigger budget, invite installers for free training, buy meals, give away screw drivers, and more importantly, their products were very good. Their wireless systems in particular were always lightyears better than anybody else in my opinion, even Vantage.
So, my position to customers was that if it was a retrofit, Lutron was the way to go and if it was a centralized system, Vantage was not going to take a 2nd seat to no-one and even though they didn't have as many color options or the elegance of Lutron, they would be a great choice and we'd highly recommend them.
Around this time, whole home automation also began to get popular and all these fancy houses had to have their Crestron, Control 4, Savant, ELAN, etc. etc. systems and Vantage who started in lighting started pivoting more towards that market by offering AV products, touch screens and the above mentioned companies started pivoting towards lighting. Lutron on the other hand stuck with lighting which also included shades (sun is a light after all) and was happy to just be the lighting and have other systems link into it.
Once the iPhone came out, it was a complete game changer. Everybody wanted apps and more and more demand for lighting automation was there so both companies updated their systems and Vantage brought out its beautiful Infusion system and soon Lutron came out with their clear connect wireless systems and Homeworks QS and Radio Ra2 came out.
Both had apps but Lutron's was far more user friendly in my opinion because it would just take the existing house and put it on the app. No fuss. Vantage on the other hand was really into AV by now so the installer had to custom design it and it was not very intuitive. Maybe for AV guys who work with Crestron type systems it made sense, but to me, it was not fun.
To make matters worse, once things moved towards cloud based, Lutron shined with their new DIY Caseta system and then seamlessly added cloud to their existing dealer systems (with just a connect bridge) and as far as I know, Vantage still doesn't have that.
A couple other "game changing moments" also happened: LED lights became popular and the norm and SAVANT bought Lite-Touch and ended Lite-Touch systems. Also, the large French company Legrand bought Vantage. I'll come back to the latter in a bit.
LED light dimming turned out to be extremely difficult. The way a lot of smart dimmers and dimming modules worked, they put out some voltage to the load. There are engineering reasons for that which I am not fully aware of but I do know that there was a minimum load requirement and with LED's that wasn't met so all kinds of things were going wrong with all 3 systems with LED lights initially.
Lights would flicker, lights would not go off, etc. Surprisingly, the vantage and Lutron power modules handled LEDs pretty well, but the in wall dimmers from Lutron didn't fare so well so both companies completely redid their dimmers - Vantage has a new standing dimming module that is great and all of Lutron's dimmers now are CL rated or you can get ELV dimmers.
As such, to answer Mike's question from 5 years ago (which would mean he has the older dimming modules and this wouldn't apply lol), you really can't go wrong with either system if your concern is LED lighting. They've all figured it out and I've used both systems just fine with LEDs.
The biggest issue I see now is that centralized systems are a ticking timebomb. Sooner or later, that processor or (master controller as Vantage calls it), will go out. IF you're lucky that the company is still around, AND if you're lucky that there is a dealer in your area, AND you're lucky that they service or have the part available, it's only a few thousand dollars you'll spend. Typically you're fine for the first 5 years but I've seen systems fail even after 3 years.
After seeing how Savant treated Lite-Touch, and Legrand bought Vantage, I was worried about what was coming down the line. All of a sudden, the sales and tech support wasn't as friendly and down to earth as they used to be. All of a sudden, buildings where we would send things to got changed...Then announcement after announcement about upcoming products to match other Legrand products and it seemed Vantage really wanted to go after the full home automation market than lighting.
For me, I don't do AV so I was in a tough spot because builders usually have their electrical guy and their AV guy. It used to be electrical guys also do lighting and only lighting and the AV guy does the rest and ties in.
I'm biased so i think lighting and electrical should be done by the electrical guy because we understand lighting loads, and it's better to have the same guy programming the house doing the high voltage stuff to catch issues and have one person to blame when things go wrong. Not to mention most service calls in the future have an electrical source that neither an AV guy nor a typical electrician can touch. Now that it's all tied together, vantage really seemed to look at electricians as second class dealers.
When you're buying a dealer installed system, having a good dealer is very important because dealers come and go all the time and some focus more on new systems while others on repairs and a homeowner can end up with a bad dealer who rather than wanting to fix something, will sell them a new system.
One question I'm always asked in a sales meeting with a potential new customer is "if you're not around, will we find other dealers to work on this" and I would always tell the customer to check out their website and see how many authorized dealers are in their area. With Lutron, it was super easy because they have many many dealers both AV or electrical variety. With Vantage, not so much. Mostly AV guys and kind of far away.
I won't get into too much details here because the wounds are fresh but the new sales regime at Vantage without warning terminated what they deemed as low performing dealers so there are even less dealers around. I think ultimately this will hurt their customers because the new dealers who sell a lot of systems weren't around for the older systems and they are going to be like horse doctors that will just tell people to get a new system.
TLDR;
Because of this, I think the best choice right now is to go with Lutron and completely stay away from a centralized system. Lutron has many dealers, 24/7 tech support, the best apps both cloud based and local, and the best wireless and retrofit systems. If you go with a non-centralized system, even if they do go out of business, you're still back to regular switches on your wall.
You can always go with wall mounted power modules hidden away a bit too and those will also work if the processor goes or you need to change to another system and there are far more choices in the non-central vs. central systems.
Only get a centralized system if you can afford to spend another $10-$50,000 in 10-20 years updating your system.
And honestly, I think for most people, a Radio Ra2 system is more than what they need.
zany%coppe...@gtempaccount.com
Awesome...How big is your project?
mfat...@gmail.com
The Electrician
light...@gmail.com
light...@gmail.com
Roger R
The Electrician
I'd be really surprised if Vantage is around in 5-10 years or if they are, you can find any dealers in their area. Just go on their website and see who can service your system: Chances are it's only a half dozen AV companies who will try to sell you a new system.
Zach Metzinger
> And don't forget about shades. Lutron has the best shades in the world. Vantage had a dinky Somfy motor translator and I guess now they do Qmotion. Ask any shade dealer which the best brand is...the answer will not surprise you!
"You can believe me, I'm not a shill for Lutron at all!"
--- Zach