I've finally done it (10Base-2)
Lincoln J. King-Cliby
I'm feeling nostalgic. Please excuse it if not to your liking]
Well,
I've finally done it. I replaced the last 10Base-2 (thinnet) segment
of my home network with Cat5. What stated almost 11 years ago as the
_only_ part of my home network -- linking two computers directly had
evolved in purpose over the years into being nothing more than the
backbone link between the 1st and 2nd floors of the house (Nodes
1A1-H01 and 2A1-H01). Then the hub on the 2nd floor became nothing
more than a media converter slaved to a uplink port on a 10/100 switch
(2A1-S01). The writing was on the wall: It was only a matter of time
before coax was no longer a part of my home network, but still the
hubs (Seriously, when was the last time you saw a NIC with a Thinnet
port on it) at each end of the coax continued to function without much
attention for several more years. Then one of the hubs became
intermittant, performance became an issue - I had no choice.
Tonight I pulled and activated the Cat5e to replace that last bit of
coax. Ports 1A2-23, 1A2-24, and 1A3-01 became the most recent
additions to the network. 1A2-23 and 24 no go directly to one of the
ProLiant/W2K servers in the house; 1A3-01 now goes to the new switch
that replaced the coax hub on the 1st floor. [I wanted to tie the
server's redundant NICs directly to the core switch, and it wasn't
practical to pull seperate cables for all 15 devices on the 1st floor]
While I was doing this I had these thoughts:
- Does anyone else still use Coax for their network? It's been years
since I've really heard it mentioned.
- How do other people identify the jacks used in their home network
(or network/telecom/structured cabling system)? I'm using
[Building][IDF][Panel]-[Port]... but that's just what I'm used to from
the office side of things?
- Is my network excessive for two people and a dog? (Ok, I kind of
reached that point when I added my third ProLiant server, but besides
that)
- What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
have a feeling mine is one of the older and larger, but I'm curious...
Especially those lucky people who had networking built in.
Thanks for indulging me,
Lincoln
--
Lincoln King-Cliby
Resume, Volunteer Experience, and More:
http://lincoln.homeip.net/misc/hire.html
Chuck Yerkes
> [Oh, this probably has almost no interest value to most people, but
> I'm feeling nostalgic. Please excuse it if not to your liking]
There are better news groups, but...
> I've finally done it. I replaced the last 10Base-2 (thinnet) segment
> of my home network with Cat5. ....
> Tonight I pulled and activated the Cat5e to replace that last bit of
> coax. Ports 1A2-23, 1A2-24, and 1A3-01 became the most recent
> additions to the network. 1A2-23 and 24 no go directly to one of the
> ProLiant/W2K servers in the house; 1A3-01 now goes to the new switch
> that replaced the coax hub on the 1st floor. [I wanted to tie the
> server's redundant NICs directly to the core switch, and it wasn't
> practical to pull seperate cables for all 15 devices on the 1st floor]
Well, redundancy wouldd suggest running something more stable than an MS
OS, but... (when did you last hear that it was going to be hyper secure
due to its VMS heritage? Of course Win2k wiped out all those W95/98
installs too).
> While I was doing this I had these thoughts:
>
> - Does anyone else still use Coax for their network? It's been years
> since I've really heard it mentioned.
I've got a chunk of wire, but that's just because I have box or two that
have coax as an extra interface.
But the main machine (mostly always on) has a Fibre GigE card and one
other machine gets the other. 800mb/s. 2 is easy. It's direct. 3
means parts I don't have and don't really want much for home.
> - How do other people identify the jacks used in their home network
> (or network/telecom/structured cabling system)? I'm using
> [Building][IDF][Panel]-[Port]... but that's just what I'm used to from
> the office side of things?
Room-Panel-Port where "room" is a 2/3 letter abbrev. LR=Living Room,
Den=den, DR=Dining room, BR1, BR2, BR3.
So Den-2-A is the upper left port in the 2nd DEN wallbox.
> - What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
> have a feeling mine is one of the older and larger, but I'm curious...
> Especially those lucky people who had networking built in.
2 NeXTs, 3 intel boxes (FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Linux), Sparc10(NetBSD),
Sparc20(OpenBSD), 2 1/2 mac laptops, Alpha (RedHat Linux), Cisco (IOS
12.x), 16 port terminal server, Ethernet Printer, a Mac Classic II
running BSD just because it can and to frighten mac friends (networking
via PPP)... And the rest - the ones without ethernet include an Apple
//, CPM Kaypro, CoCo 2, etc.
But the "always on" box is a box the size of a 8 port hub, boots from a
CF, runs a firewall (wireles, cable, 2 ethernets), IPv6 gateway, little
web services to do X10, weather, festival of sensors (many on the
terminal server to get 16 serial ports). It boots from a compact flash.
No moving parts, 100% silent.
And it draws 10 Watts at 12 Volts. I have a UPS. A friend uses one of
those "jump start booster" battery things that plugs in, but puts out
12VDC for around 4 hours in powerloss.
Its replacement is the same, but has a laptop drive for some dynamic
data. It's spun down most of the time, so draws not much extra power.
Philx509
King-Cliby) wrote:
Gosh and golly. I'm not the only "network geezer" in this NG. I put
in my Thinnet 13 years ago, and started running Lantastic 12 years
ago. I don't miss Lantastic, and I wish I could also miss my 10Base-2
backbone.
>
>I've finally done it. I replaced the last 10Base-2 (thinnet) segment
>of my home network with Cat5. What stated almost 11 years ago as the
>_only_ part of my home network -- linking two computers directly had
>evolved in purpose over the years into being nothing more than the
>backbone link between the 1st and 2nd floors of the house (Nodes
Exact same setup here.
>1A1-H01 and 2A1-H01). Then the hub on the 2nd floor became nothing
>more than a media converter slaved to a uplink port on a 10/100 switch
>(2A1-S01). The writing was on the wall: It was only a matter of time
>before coax was no longer a part of my home network, but still the
>hubs (Seriously, when was the last time you saw a NIC with a Thinnet
Well, I have two of them! But like you, one of my hubs has become
intermittent.
>port on it) at each end of the coax continued to function without much
>attention for several more years. Then one of the hubs became
>intermittant, performance became an issue - I had no choice.
>
>Tonight I pulled and activated the Cat5e to replace that last bit of
Exactly how did you do this? Did you use the 10Base-2 as a "pull
string?" Did you have to do anything special? Did you do it all
alone or did you need an assistant for any part of the job?
>coax. Ports 1A2-23, 1A2-24, and 1A3-01 became the most recent
Do you number the ports off your hubs? (or switches?)
My setup is one hub upstairs and one downstairs. All the upstairs
systems and the network printer are cabled in to this hub. All the
downstairs systems are connected to the the router/firewall, which
serves as the downstairs hub. It's pretty simple.
I don't see that i need to number each of the ports, or am I missing
something? Right now, there are no ports in any other rooms of the
house.
>additions to the network. 1A2-23 and 24 no go directly to one of the
>ProLiant/W2K servers in the house; 1A3-01 now goes to the new switch
Well, one difference is obvious. I'm not lucky to have even one
ProLiant W2K server in the house. How do I get one, cheap? :)
>that replaced the coax hub on the 1st floor. [I wanted to tie the
>server's redundant NICs directly to the core switch, and it wasn't
>practical to pull seperate cables for all 15 devices on the 1st floor]
Uh, you running an ISP at home?
>
>While I was doing this I had these thoughts:
>
>- Does anyone else still use Coax for their network? It's been years
>since I've really heard it mentioned.
yeah, me, but only until I can get rid of it!
>
>- How do other people identify the jacks used in their home network
>(or network/telecom/structured cabling system)? I'm using
>[Building][IDF][Panel]-[Port]... but that's just what I'm used to from
>the office side of things?
>
>- Is my network excessive for two people and a dog? (Ok, I kind of
>reached that point when I added my third ProLiant server, but besides
>that)
Well, I am part of a two-person plus a college student home-for-the
summer household. 3 PCs (and two more on the way), 2 notebooks, a
network printer, two non-network printers, a scanner, a business card
scanner, Exabyte SCSI backup in one of the systems. But no dog.
>
>- What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
As noted above, mine was installed in 1991 and went into service in
1992.
>have a feeling mine is one of the older and larger, but I'm curious...
>Especially those lucky people who had networking built in.
I should be so lucky. I was "smart" enough to install 10Base-2
during a major remodel.
>
>Thanks for indulging me,
No problemo. Now put up with my (stupid) questions.
>
>Lincoln
James Knott
> (Seriously, when was the last time you saw a NIC with a Thinnet
> port on it)
Last week. I gave away a couple of old 10 Mb NICs. However, I do know of a
couple of business LANs, that are still running 10base2.
My home network is 100 Mb throughout, with the possible exception of the
cable modem.
--
Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.
To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.
James Knott
> Gosh and golly. I'm not the only "network geezer" in this NG. I put
> in my Thinnet 13 years ago, and started running Lantastic 12 years
> ago. I don't miss Lantastic, and I wish I could also miss my 10Base-2
> backbone.
>
Well, if that makes you a "network geezer", I'd hate to think what I am. My
first network experience was pre ethernet, back in '77. It was on a
network connecting computer systems made by Collins. All the devices, such
as CPUs, disk and tape drives etc., were connected by a local network that
used time slots, rather than packets. When devices wanted to communicate,
the source would place it's data on the cable at certain intervals and the
destination would listen at those times. That network used triaxial
(center core & two shields) cable, connected in a loop. As I recall, the
high speed "TDX" loop ran at 8 Mb/s and the low speed "TDM" loop at 2 Mb.
The low speed loop used RG-58 and connected lower speed devices to the TDX
loop, through an interface box.
Incidentally, the first computer I worked on, was built with vacuum tubes &
relays. It also had a memory drum.
I bought my first computer in 1976.
Al Dykes
PCI-only PCs killed thinwire; I don't recall a PCI thinwire card, but
it was already dead.
At some point I called all my dealers to see if anyone was still
selling TW multiport repeaters; nobody was. This was early ebay days
and nothing was there, either. I told my clients that they couldn't
replace their TW equipment if it failed and they should plan on a
rewiring before they bought there next batch of computers.
--
Al Dykes
-----------
adykes at p a n i x . c o m
Dave Houston
The first magnetic memory drum (i.e. hard disk) that I saw ('64) was in a
Field Artillery Computer (FADAC) which was being developed for the Army. I
helped one of the engineers set up a test to measure the uniformity of the
iron oxide coating on the prototype disks.
I read that the Army continued to pour money into the project with no useful
results until the Apple II came along and made it obsolete.
Carl Navarro
>- Does anyone else still use Coax for their network? It's been years
>since I've really heard it mentioned.
Sure. In desperation it goes farther than 100 meters. Great for
schools where there's a single feed to the football press box and the
customer doesn't want to spring for fiber. Also, the daisy chaining
saves cable if you're frugal.
>- How do other people identify the jacks used in their home network
>(or network/telecom/structured cabling system)? I'm using
>[Building][IDF][Panel]-[Port]... but that's just what I'm used to from
>the office side of things?
By letters. A,B,C,D,E. Sometimes I get fancy and do it by numbers
1,2,3,4 :-)
>- Is my network excessive for two people and a dog? (Ok, I kind of
>reached that point when I added my third ProLiant server, but besides
>that)
It depends on whether you are sending music to the doghouse. You
might have helped your neighbors out and gone wireless.
>- What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
One jack per 200 square feet. Or was that a question that really
required a thoughtful answer?
>Thanks for indulging me,
Me too.
Carl
P. Thompson
On Mon, 24 May 2004, Al Dykes wrote:
> In article <45fa70e4.0405...@posting.google.com>,
> PCI-only PCs killed thinwire; I don't recall a PCI thinwire card, but
> it was already dead.
I have one in each of my PCI machines. Tulip based cards often had
thinwire ports. DE450 had all three: AUI, Thinwiew, 10bt
Brian W. Antoine
wrote:
>- Does anyone else still use Coax for their network? It's been years
>since I've really heard it mentioned.
Yes, because some of the machines have embeded network hardware or are
so old that they never made anything but 10base2 cards for them. :)
>- What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
>have a feeling mine is one of the older and larger, but I'm curious...
>Especially those lucky people who had networking built in.
Thanks to the company I worked for back then, I've had a home network
since about 1988 or so and since I was the enginner in charge of the
tcp/ip protocol stack on our systems, I had incentive to make sure it
worked. :)
Lincoln J. King-Cliby
> >more than a media converter slaved to a uplink port on a 10/100 switch
> >(2A1-S01). The writing was on the wall: It was only a matter of time
> >before coax was no longer a part of my home network, but still the
> >hubs (Seriously, when was the last time you saw a NIC with a Thinnet
>
> Well, I have two of them! But like you, one of my hubs has become
> intermittent.
I wonder if they have some kind of built-in expiration date? ("Best if
network upgraded before xx/2004")
>
> >Tonight I pulled and activated the Cat5e to replace that last bit of
>
> Exactly how did you do this? Did you use the 10Base-2 as a "pull
> string?" Did you have to do anything special? Did you do it all
> alone or did you need an assistant for any part of the job?
I was lucky... This run was partially conduitized, and very accessable
for the parts that weren't... Just taped the new runs onto the coax
and pulled (then poked my head into the "attic" (FVVO) space between
floors and gave a little assistance when it got hung up on a turn...
Probably spent more time terminating and testing than actually pulling
(And I've done 1k+ jacks).
No assistant, but probably would have made life a _little_ easier...
Much faster if I had a punchtool wielding assistant).
>
> >coax. Ports 1A2-23, 1A2-24, and 1A3-01 became the most recent
>
> Do you number the ports off your hubs? (or switches?)
All of the ports that are jack-to-patch panel are numbered... 1A2-24
means that its the 24th port on patch panel 2 of IDF A of building 1
(main house) (I also have IDFs in a storage shed (2A1) and, yes, the
dog house (3A1)... Had to send the old hardware somewhere, right ;-) )
The hubs/switches/routers are all the IDF code plus H/S/R and then a
two digit number.
This is both from the academic world network experience I have and a
personal preference for managed hardware.
From the documentation perspective, I can tell you that this MAC
address is plugged into Port 12 on 1A1-S01 via Jack #1A2-23. I can
tell you exactly what route each device takes back to the core
network. If I ever get around to implementing VLANs this information
will also allow me to easially figure out what belongs where.
With this documentation path, I can also isolate things more readily
(like disable ports on the switch side that aren't currently assigned
to anything) without pulling cables.
>
> My setup is one hub upstairs and one downstairs. All the upstairs
> systems and the network printer are cabled in to this hub. All the
> downstairs systems are connected to the the router/firewall, which
> serves as the downstairs hub. It's pretty simple.
>
> I don't see that i need to number each of the ports, or am I missing
> something? Right now, there are no ports in any other rooms of the
> house.
This is where I statrted and (d)evolved from there... In that setup it
makes no sense to number anything, but if you start dealing with patch
panels, IMHO it would be insane to do anything but ID the ports (on
the patch panel) in some way.
>
> >additions to the network. 1A2-23 and 24 no go directly to one of the
> >ProLiant/W2K servers in the house; 1A3-01 now goes to the new switch
>
> Well, one difference is obvious. I'm not lucky to have even one
> ProLiant W2K server in the house. How do I get one, cheap? :)
Keep your eye on eBay. Also, many of the ones you can find that aren't
working just need (as long as they're otherwise intact) a connector on
the MoBo reseated or a PS pulled and reseated. About 9 months ago I
picked up a dual something-or-other with 2 GB o' RAM, dual power
supplies, and something like 180 GB of RAID storage for $500 "AS-IS,
No Power" -- The connection for the power switch had vibrated loose.
Pulled, reseated. Problem solved.
> Uh, you running an ISP at home?
Well, computers, print servers, a pet home automation project,
wireless access points, etc., etc., Start to add up (Plus each of my
servers eats three ports: Redundant NIC x 2 + Out-of-band Management).
I like uptime. I really like uptime. I also run my own mail services
for the house off of one of the servers so reliability is important
(Please no W2K bashing... It's been good to me). I also do a bit of
software development "In my spare time" and I like to test things on a
almost-real-world network before unleashing them.
>
> Well, I am part of a two-person plus a college student home-for-the
> summer household. 3 PCs (and two more on the way), 2 notebooks, a
> network printer, two non-network printers, a scanner, a business card
> scanner, Exabyte SCSI backup in one of the systems. But no dog.
You know, I used to be in the "non-network printer" ballpark, but you
can get 1-port print servers for ~$35.00 these days, and all of the
printers in the house now run off of the network... Makes life so much
easier than having to explain that computer B has to be on for
computer A to print to printer D... Also with some jobs since the
(bigger, better, faster) server is doing the spooling can increase
perceived performance, IME.
> >
> >- What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
>
> As noted above, mine was installed in 1991 and went into service in
> 1992.
>
> >have a feeling mine is one of the older and larger, but I'm curious...
> >Especially those lucky people who had networking built in.
>
> I should be so lucky. I was "smart" enough to install 10Base-2
> during a major remodel.
Hey, at least you got something in the walls while they were open. I'm
convinced that the next home I participate in buying/remodeling, I'm
going to lace the joint with (big) conduit and Smurf tube. I know the
consensus is that it isn't necessary for resi, but having pulled cable
through conduit and having pulled cable through "Walls from He!!" (tm)
I'd much rather pay a (fairly small) premium up front to be able to
add or remove cables any time at will.
Now I agree that cable tray in the space between floors would be a tad
excessive, but... Hey, that actually almost seems like a good idea.
@yah00.com Ron Bandes
Could you please identify the always-on, silent, low-power device?
Thanks,
Ron Bandes, CCNP, CTT+, etc.
"Chuck Yerkes" <new...@may2004.NOSPAMsnew.com> wrote in message
news:y_fsc.14870$hi6.1506483@attbi_s53...
@yah00.com Ron Bandes
Collator, and used other "Generation Zero" equipment such as the 83 Sorter,
407 Accounting Machine, Gang Reproducing Punch, Verifier, etc. I could put
2 programs on a 026 Keypunch program drum. In 1969, my first year of
computer programming, I had no computer to test my programs on; I developed
a few misconceptions that went uncorrected for awhile. In 1970 I taught
myself to program Autocoder on the IBM 1401 (transistors and 12K of 7 bit
character memory, not counting parity). That's not quite as old as your
vacuum-tube system, which I assume is an IBM Type 650. Around 1975-6 I
wrote a cross-Assembler (in PL/1 on an IBM 360/40) for my professor's Altair
home computer. In 1976 I rented a "terminal" that had a 110 bps acoustic
coupler and needed a TV for a monitor to access a DEC PDP 8e so I could
program it in BASIC. In 1977 I joined The American Can Company and modified
the OS/application (rolled into one) on their Comten 476 Store-and-Forward
Message Switch (with disk!) which front-ended their IBM 370/145 still
running OS/MFT. The terminals in this network were made by Sanders (later
bought by Harris) and were similar to some IBM terminal that pre-dated the
3270. I converted them to Bisync 3270 terminals. Around this same time a
good friend joined a startup called Ungermann-Bass to work on a new thing
called a LAN. In 1979 at ITT I worked with Tymnet, Telenet (who I don't
think belonged to GTE yet), and X.75 (X.25 between International Record
Carriers).
I didn't buy my own computer until the IBM PC/AT came out in 1984. Although
around 1975 a friend and I bid $6,000 for an IBM 360/44 (only 200 ever
made). They laughed because they had paid $181,000 for it. They did manage
to get $11,000 for it.
I did have a 2-node Thinnet in the home a few years ago, but now it's
100BaseT and 802.11g with 7 nodes.
Ron Bandes, CCNP, CTT+, etc.
"James Knott" <bit_b...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:6glsc.142902$0qd....@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Mick
fanless and low powered.
Good foor invehicle installations as well.
The booting from CF is just a CF to IDE adapter
Like I said, just a guess
Mick
Chuck Yerkes
> Chuck,
>
> Could you please identify the always-on, silent, low-power device?
>
It's a soekris box (www.soekris.com). Not really a "mom" box, more
for hobbyists. You have to get an OS onto the CF.
m0n0wall (google for it) is an itneresting UI project that runs on it
and gives you web interface to configuration things. Fits on a 4 or 8MB
CF. I use a slightly larger and configure via a unix shell.
No video (that makes it cost lots less than the miniITX type things).
It boots, like all good boxes, with output to a SERIAL port.
It's got 2 or 3 ethernets, miniPCI (wireless - I use netgate.com for
that stuff) and either PCI or 1 or 2 PCMCIA slots.
The newest one will use a laptop drive (alone or with a CF).
486/133 or 586/266 with 32/64 or 128MB RAM (eg TONS).
I've got a client with several being internal DNS servers. Unplug
and there's not problem. Power over ethernet (for the PCMCIA ones)
means that we put a 48VDC power supply near the switch and inject into
the ethernets and can run them as wireless gateways in an attic or on a
grain or radio tower (as hundreds are used), etc.
> "Chuck Yerkes" <new...@may2004.NOSPAMsnew.com> wrote in message
> news:y_fsc.14870$hi6.1506483@attbi_s53...
>>But the "always on" box is a box the size of a 8 port hub, boots from a
Angela Kahealani
Telephone Dial for numeric input,
driving Ledex Rotary Stepping Switches,
read-out with Numeric Nixie Tubes...
that I designed as a summer project between 8th and 9th grades, 1963.
By 1967 I was finding bugs in the Fortran2 compiler
on the IBM 1620 BCD machine by writing a word processor
to do line wrap on word boundaries between source text
read on punch cards and printout. I quickly learned to
read the EBCDIC codes on punch cards, which didn't always
get printed on the top edge with human readable text.
Yeah, plugboards were fun... true firmwear :-)
My favorite day was when the UCLA Engineering Department's entire
compute ability was unavailable with notice that the IBM360/91 had
sprung a water leak... snicker, snicker :-)
A nice Honeywell mainframe with 16CPUs and 16 I/O Processors that I
helped select to automate JPL/NASA's tracking stations as delivered
serial number 1 at JPL for software development, developed an insane
habit of just freezing... until we discovered that the control cable
running from the CPU to the control panel had developed a broken ground
wire due to the door being opened and closed to access hardware inside
the 19" equipment racks.
There were the lean years when only aerospace was hiring...
A 16bit Minicomputer at TRW's Defense and Space Systems programmed by me
to ground test the HEAO satellites before shipping for launch kept
going nuts because the vibration of the cooling fans kept walking cards
out of their slots on a misaligned card cage.
then...
"We want you to progam this computerized backup mobile ground control
station to operate the satellite in case the main nonmobile control
center is disabled..."
"What does the satellite do?"
"We can't tell you that: You Don't Have A Need To Know"
"Then I'll go find work elsewhere"
"It's jhust mine jhob to make zie rockets go UP! Vhere zey come down is
not mine jhob" -- Verner Von Braun
The biggest challenge was remembering the 16words of 16bits that had to
be entered through switches on the front panel of Quotron's
minicomputer to make it boot (think: Stock Market, Commodoties Market).
The most fun with their computers was getting washing-machine sized disk
drives to walk across the floor during seek tests :-)
I was writing assembly level programs for the 4004 and 8008 without
hardware to check them on when the Altair was announced.
The greatest intrigue was working in a locked closet for a year and a
half at 3Com developing the Ethernet Controller (an external box) for
the Apple Lisa before the world had heard of a mouse other than at
Xerox PARC. Once the Lisa was announced to the world I bought my first
home computer! Moto68000 at 8MHz and 1MB RAM! Apple Custom Hardware MMU
managed 4 processes for multiprocessing.
I got "on the net" via Sun Microsystems in 1984, when you gave your
email address in bang notation with the paths from several
well-connected hosts that did uucp relay...
{ucbvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny
These young whippersnappers just don't know how good they've got it,
thanks to our building computers and networks for them!
--
Copyright 2004 Angela Kahealani. All rights reserved without prejudice;
UCC1-207. All information and transactions are non negotiable and are
private between the parties. http://www.kahealani.com/
Beverly Howard
Didn't see it mentioned that the reason base-2 was so desirable in the
beginning was that the lowest cost hubs then were around $600 and
base-t could not be "daisy chained" like base-2
The death blow (literally) to most of the coax was the lighting
electrification of a section of the reflective foil coating on a
waferboard subwall along which ran about 30 feet of coax... which, in
turn, routed the charge into four computers and three hubs, literally
blowing chips apart within each... in both buildings.
Beverly Howard.
Rick DeNatale
> By 1967 I was finding bugs in the Fortran2 compiler
> on the IBM 1620 BCD machine by writing a word processor
> to do line wrap on word boundaries between source text
> read on punch cards and printout. I quickly learned to
> read the EBCDIC codes on punch cards, which didn't always
> get printed on the top edge with human readable text.
The 1620 used a BCD code and not EBCDIC which, AFAIK, came along with the
S/360 architecture.
The 1620 only used 6 bits per digit, and one of those was a parity bit so
there were really only 5 bits available the six bits were labeled C
(check), F (flag), 8, 4, 2, and 1. Some form of 6-bit internal encoding
was a feature of most if not all IBM computers prior to the S/360 which
introduced the 8-bit byte. EBCDIC is an 8-bit code.
Alphameric data was represented by two digits, with A being 41 through Z
being 69. Unlike EBCDIC, there were no gaps between groups of letters.
Strictly speaking there is no such thing as an EBCDIC punch card code.
Punch card encoding was considered an external coding and was derived from
the original Herman Hollerith design with Zone (12, 11, and 10) and digit
(1-9) rows. Sometimes the 10 zone row is considered to be the 0 digit row.
Compared to the internal encodings used inside the computers, H Codes were
rather sparse. Although the punch cards had 12 rows (bits per column) most
of the codes used at most three punched holes. Digits used one punch,
Letters (uppercase only) used one of the 12, 11, and 10, and one of the
1-9 punches, special characters used one of the zone rows, the 8 row, and
one of the 1-7 rows.
Unlike EBCDIC, there was no representation of lowercase letters in the H
code.
However EBDIC does have a relationship to the H codes in that EBCDIC was
designed so that the EBCDIC encodings of the graphic characters which
were available on the 029 keypunch could be truncated to 6-bits without
ambiguity, so as to allow support for card decks, and data across the
S/360 and earlier IBM Machines. So a card punched on an IBM 029 keypunch
could be read into either an EBCDIC S/360 or a machine like the 7090 which
used BCD internally.
It was compatibility with earlier machines which drove a lot of design
decisions on the S/360. IBM made a conscious decision to design EBCDIC
rather than using ASCII (which came out about the same time as the S/360,
and was then known as USASCII) because ASCII would have been
incompatible with existing customer data.
Getting back to the 1620, another interesting tidbit was that it avoided
expensive hardware as much as possible. The original Model 1 didn't have
addition hardware, instead it added BCD numbers digit by digit using table
lookup. The Model 2 did have an adder circuit but still did multiplication
by table lookup.
Back when I interviewed for my job at IBM in the mid 1970s one of the
interviewers turned out to have been involved with the design of the 1620,
and was tickled that I'd had my early computer experience on it. When I
talked about the addition table, he revealed that the code name for the
model 1 during development had been cadet, which stood for Can't Add
Doesn't Even Try.
AZ Woody
both going to and returning from school, every day, for 5 years"
While Nixie tubes were around since the late 50's, they were expensive in
1963! I can remember when Popular Electronics first started talking about
them, and then using them in a few projects, and that was more like the late
60's.
I remember the first "digital" clock project they published - thought it was
so cool to have a clock with no hands!
I doubt they'd be in the hands of a kid in 1963......
I remember the first time they used a LED.. Gosh, they were expensive!
Then the first 7-seg LED display.. Far out of the reach of a kid!
Even the "I was writing assembly language for the 4004 and 8008 without a
machine" when the Altair came out (which, BTW, was an 8080)
BTW, Rick, when you talk "5 bits + parity", aren't you talking "Baudot"?
Good old 5 bit characters! Good old paper tape!
"Rick DeNatale" <dena...@ctc.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.05.27....@ctc.net...
Philx509
wrote:
>Philx509 wrote:
>
>Well, if that makes you a "network geezer", I'd hate to think what I am. My
I guess what I meant was, CSMA/CD type networks. IEEE 802.3 or its
predecessor Xerox Ethernet.
>first network experience was pre ethernet, back in '77. It was on a
>network connecting computer systems made by Collins. All the devices, such
>as CPUs, disk and tape drives etc., were connected by a local network that
>used time slots, rather than packets. When devices wanted to communicate,
>the source would place it's data on the cable at certain intervals and the
>destination would listen at those times. That network used triaxial
>(center core & two shields) cable, connected in a loop. As I recall, the
>high speed "TDX" loop ran at 8 Mb/s and the low speed "TDM" loop at 2 Mb.
>The low speed loop used RG-58 and connected lower speed devices to the TDX
>loop, through an interface box.
>
>Incidentally, the first computer I worked on, was built with vacuum tubes &
>relays. It also had a memory drum.
Wow, I did a bit of work on an IBM 1620, and a lot on a 7040 ($IBSYS),
and lots and lots of work on S/360 systems of various sizes.
[ //INPUT DD * - amazing I remember that crap!]
Actually, if you consider SNA or even BiSync to be early
proto-networks, then I guess I was networking in 1968. When a 64 KB
system was a big honking machine.
>
>I bought my first computer in 1976.
I would like to say I was still in diapers then, but that wouldn't be
true. I bought my first copy of an early BYTE magazine about 1977.
Got my first CP/M PC in 1980, Xerox 820. Ended up adding a 10 MB
SASI 8" hard disk to the system.
Philx509
On 24 May 2004 22:36:49 -0700, chsv...@hotmail.com (Lincoln J.
King-Cliby) wrote:
>>
>> Exactly how did you do this? Did you use the 10Base-2 as a "pull
>> string?" Did you have to do anything special? Did you do it all
>> alone or did you need an assistant for any part of the job?
>
>I was lucky... This run was partially conduitized, and very accessable
>for the parts that weren't... Just taped the new runs onto the coax
>and pulled (then poked my head into the "attic" (FVVO) space between
>floors and gave a little assistance when it got hung up on a turn...
My setup isn't as good as yours. When I did a remodel in 1991, the
drywall was open everywhere, so I threw in Thinnet (and also lots of
4-wire phone circuits.) But because this was a combination add-on and
remodel, it wasn't practical to put in conduit, much, much to my
regret. The Thinnet wasn't nailed down or anything like that, - no
buiding code requirementns, but it was sort of just dropped into
place. It runs between studs, along floorboards, and so forth.
So I'm going to have to somehow use the Thinnet to pull my Cat 5e, and
pull it through. I'm nervous about all this, because if I screw up,
then I have nothing to fall back on, except wireless (no flames,
please) since I'm not about to punch into drywall at this time.
>Probably spent more time terminating and testing than actually pulling
>(And I've done 1k+ jacks).
>
>No assistant, but probably would have made life a _little_ easier...
>Much faster if I had a punchtool wielding assistant).
When my son is home from college. :)
>
>
>All of the ports that are jack-to-patch panel are numbered... 1A2-24
>means that its the 24th port on patch panel 2 of IDF A of building 1
>(main house) (I also have IDFs in a storage shed (2A1) and, yes, the
>dog house (3A1)... Had to send the old hardware somewhere, right ;-) )
I would need to get a dog first. :)
>
>
>This is both from the academic world network experience I have and a
>personal preference for managed hardware.
Agreed.
>
>From the documentation perspective, I can tell you that this MAC
>address is plugged into Port 12 on 1A1-S01 via Jack #1A2-23. I can
>tell you exactly what route each device takes back to the core
>network. If I ever get around to implementing VLANs this information
at home????
>will also allow me to easially figure out what belongs where.
>
>
>
>This is where I statrted and (d)evolved from there... In that setup it
>makes no sense to number anything, but if you start dealing with patch
>panels, IMHO it would be insane to do anything but ID the ports (on
>the patch panel) in some way.
When I do my next big network upgrade (cat5e, RG6, etc.) with
wallplates through the house, I too will have patch panels.
>
>>
>> >additions to the network. 1A2-23 and 24 no go directly to one of the
>> >ProLiant/W2K servers in the house; 1A3-01 now goes to the new switch
>>
>> Well, one difference is obvious. I'm not lucky to have even one
>> ProLiant W2K server in the house. How do I get one, cheap? :)
>
>Keep your eye on eBay. Also, many of the ones you can find that aren't
>working just need (as long as they're otherwise intact) a connector on
>the MoBo reseated or a PS pulled and reseated. About 9 months ago I
>picked up a dual something-or-other with 2 GB o' RAM, dual power
>supplies, and something like 180 GB of RAID storage for $500 "AS-IS,
>No Power" -- The connection for the power switch had vibrated loose.
>Pulled, reseated. Problem solved.
I just did an Ebay search for Proliant Dual Xeon. 19 hits. Some
serious stuff there.
Ok, now what does your wife think of all this? For me that could be
the critical limiting factor. :)
Philx509
>I got "on the net" via Sun Microsystems in 1984, when you gave your
>email address in bang notation with the paths from several
>well-connected hosts that did uucp relay...
>{ucbvax,ihnp4}!sun!sunny
>
I was working for Fortune Systems, and we also used bang-path
notation:
{well known sites}!ucbvax!fortune!me
and we got news via uucp.
Boy, was the DNS an important step for the growth of the Internet.
>These young whippersnappers just don't know how good they've got it,
>thanks to our building computers and networks for them!
True enough. How many users today can still do things with DOS, e.g.
a BAT file?
Philx509
@yah00.com> wrote:
. Around 1975-6 I
>wrote a cross-Assembler (in PL/1 on an IBM 360/40) for my professor's Altair
>home computer. In 1976 I rented a "terminal" that had a 110 bps acoustic
PL/1, too bad it hasn't survived to the current generations of
systems. Does anyone have a PL/1 compiler that runs under Windows?
I have (somewhere) the disks for PL/1 for DOS, actually DOS 1.1, with
all the various CP/M style BIOS calls, all written in ASM.
The terminals in this network were made by Sanders (later
A name out of my long-distant past, when the whole IT business was IBM
and the plug-compatibles, or so it seemed. Plus DEC of course.
>
>good friend joined a startup called Ungermann-Bass to work on a new thing
I actually interviewed with them once, not long before they got merged
into Tandem, which merged into Compaq, and is now HP. So if you hung
on long enough, you would have worked for four companies without
changing jobs. Typical Silicon Valley.
>I didn't buy my own computer until the IBM PC/AT came out in 1984. Although
>around 1975 a friend and I bid $6,000 for an IBM 360/44 (only 200 ever
>made). They laughed because they had paid $181,000 for it. They did manage
>to get $11,000 for it.
The scientific one, with the 1.2 MB removable hard disk that looked
like an oversized floppy?
>
>I did have a 2-node Thinnet in the home a few years ago, but now it's
>100BaseT and 802.11g with 7 nodes.
>>Ron Bandes, CCNP, CTT+, etc.
Well, I have a CISSP, but that's all.
Robert L. Bass
> pull my Cat 5e, and pull it through...
Do you have a basement or accessible crawl space beneath the house? If so,
there are much easier ways to rewire the first floor. If the attic is
accessible, the upper floor can also be wired without punching holes in the
drywall. I have an extensive FAQ primarily concerned with installing
security and home automation systems in existing structures. However, many
of the wiring techniques can easily be applied to installing CAT5, RG6, etc.
If you'll tell us a bit more about the age and layout of your home, perhaps
I and several other experienced installers can give you some guidance.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Angela Kahealani
> This whole thing sounds a bit like "I walked 5 miles uphill in a
> snowstorm both going to and returning from school, every day, for 5
> years"
Wasn't that the whole point? It is, after all, OFF TOPIC!
> While Nixie tubes were around since the late 50's, they were expensive
> in 1963! I doubt they'd be in the hands of a kid in 1963......
Ahhh... the GOOD ole' days... C & H Surplus, Pasadena, CA moved a lot of
military hardware.
> Even the "I was writing assembly language for the 4004 and 8008
> without a machine" when the Altair came out (which, BTW, was an 8080)
like I didn't know that?
>> > By 1967 I was finding bugs in the Fortran2 compiler
>> > on the IBM 1620 BCD machine by writing a word processor
>> > to do line wrap on word boundaries between source text
>> > read on punch cards and printout. I quickly learned to
>> > read the EBCDIC codes on punch cards, which didn't always
>> > get printed on the top edge with human readable text.
>>
>> The 1620 used a BCD code and not EBCDIC which, AFAIK, came along with
>> the S/360 architecture.
Yes... and a couple years and change of venue passed between my
sentences...
You guys are certainly quick to jump to invalidate and disbelieve rather
than ask for clarification. But, then, I only wished to contribute some
anecdotal historical items, not get into your male game of "my ego's
bigger than yours". So, since the attacks have begun, I'm leaving you
to your pissing contest.
Philx509
<rober...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> ... I'm going to have to somehow use the Thinnet to
>> pull my Cat 5e, and pull it through...
>
>Do you have a basement or accessible crawl space beneath the house? If so,
Yes, there is a crawl space, literally. I can barely, barely sit on
the ground with my legs crossed, without bumping my head on a beam or
the subfloor. And parts of the crawl space are filled with very
large, round heating ducts. The furnace is also in the crawl space,
and it's a forced-air setup.
>there are much easier ways to rewire the first floor. If the attic is
There is a bit of an attic, but it's not too accessible. The various
parts of the attic are not connected to each other.
>accessible, the upper floor can also be wired without punching holes in the
>drywall. I have an extensive FAQ primarily concerned with installing
>security and home automation systems in existing structures. However, many
>of the wiring techniques can easily be applied to installing CAT5, RG6, etc.
>
>If you'll tell us a bit more about the age and layout of your home, perhaps
>I and several other experienced installers can give you some guidance.
Great. \ and THANK YOU!!!
The house was originally built in 1953, wood frame with stucco
exterior. Second story was added on in two separate remodel projects.
I did one and the previous owner did the first sometime before I
bought the house. There is also a crawl space, which I described
above. Unlike the attic sections, the crawl space is continuous from
the inner edges of the foundations.
The forced air system includes two ducts that run from the crawl space
through the first-floor walls up to two rooms, respectively, in the
second story. The third upstairs room is a bathroom which is heated
by a floorboard level electric heater. No forced air heating for that
room because of the difficulty of running a duct there.
There is a staircase in the middle of the house that runs from the
first floor to the second floor. The washer and dryer are in a
little "utility closet" under part of the staircase/
>
>Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
>http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
I just did a quick look. Definitely worth a deep study, but there
were these annoying pop-up ads. When I got rid of them, I lost my
connection to the site.
Robert L. Bass
> barely sit on the ground with my legs crossed,
> without bumping my head on a beam or the subfloor.
I had a tech working for me some years back who kept a mechanic's dolly in
his truck. He would lie down on it and roll around pulling cables through
crawl spaces with a cordless drill, a hammer and a box of drive rings in his
tool pouch. The guy was really fast.
> And parts of the crawl space are filled with very
> large, round heating ducts. The furnace is also in
> the crawl space, and it's a forced-air setup.
If there's enough room to get around to the various wall points where feeds
will need to go up you may still be OK.
>> there are much easier ways to rewire the first
>> floor. If the attic is...
>
> There is a bit of an attic, but it's not too accessible.
> The various parts of the attic are not connected to
> each other.
Every once in a while I used to run into a place like that. I sometimes
wonder what the architect was thinking. :^)
>> accessible, the upper floor can also be wired without
>> punching holes in the drywall. I have an extensive
>> FAQ primarily concerned with installing security and
>> home automation systems in existing structures.
>> However, many of the wiring techniques can easily be
>> applied to installing CAT5, RG6, etc.
>>
>> If you'll tell us a bit more about the age and layout of
>> your home, perhaps I and several other experienced
>> installers can give you some guidance.
>
> Great. \ and THANK YOU!!!
No problem.
> The house was originally built in 1953, wood frame
> with stucco exterior.
Most homes that age in the US were boxed sill construction. I have a FAQ
page about running cables to protect windows in boxed sill. The technique
applies equally to running structured wiring to wall outlets.
> Second story was added on in two separate remodel
> projects. I did one and the previous owner did the
> first sometime before I bought the house. There is
> also a crawl space, which I described above. Unlike
> the attic sections, the crawl space is continuous from
> the inner edges of the foundations.
If you can access the outside walls in the crawl space most of the wiring
should be doable without having to damage the walls. For example, if it's
boxed sill all you need to do to wire a standard outlet is cut an opening to
fit an old work gang box or (better) a single gang Caddy fastener. In case
that's unfamiliar, here's an image:
http://www.erico.com/public/images/products/FF-Datacomm/NorthAmerica/136963.jpg.
Cut an opening in the drywall using the fastener as a template. Drop a few
feet of cable in the wall, pushing it down past the insulation with an
electrician's snake so. Measure horizontally from the nearest electrical
outlet. In the crawl space measure the same distance back from the cable
servicing the outlet above. Using a 3/4" paddle bit, bore a hole into the
fire stop at a slight upward angle. Reach in with your snake and pull the
cable out. It takes a few minutes to get the hang of it but once you've
done a couple you'll be as fast as the average alarm installer. :^)
> The forced air system includes two ducts that run
> from the crawl space through the first-floor walls
> up to two rooms, respectively, in the second story.
If you can get to the attic above those rooms you may be able to slide the
steel snake down along the outside of a duct to the basement. Whatever you
do, DO NOT install any wiring inside an air duct. That's a major no-no.
> The third upstairs room is a bathroom which is
> heated by a floorboard level electric heater. No
> forced air heating for that room because of the
> difficulty of running a duct there.
If you need to put cable on a room abutting the bathroom, you might luck out
there. Bath tub and toilet draind are typically fed into vertical stacks
called DWV (drain waste vent) pipes. These are large diameter and require a
big hole. In the early fifties not many carpenters and plumbers used hole
saws like they do today. The opening for the DWV was typically a square
hole. With a little patience you can get a snake down from the attic to the
crawl space next to the DWV. The pipe goes from the basement or crawl space
all the way through the roof to the vent.
> There is a staircase in the middle of the house that
> runs from the first floor to the second floor. The
> washer and dryer are in a little "utility closet" under
> part of the staircase.
That may or may not help. Here's a trick I use with alarm wiring. Locate
the central bearing wall of the house. In most cases there will be one wall
directly over another running parallel to the ridge beam. Prepare a hole to
install a telephone jack or an alarm (intercom?) speaker in this wall on the
first floor level about 2-3" above the baseboard trim. Do the same thing on
the upper floor directly above the first one. Measure horizontally to the
nearest light switch serving a ceiling fixture on the upper floor. Point
the beam of a flashlight into the hole.
Go to the attic, locate the wire from that lightswitch where it emerges from
the top of the wall. Measure back the same distance and drill into the top
of the wall with a 3/4" paddle bit. Look into the hole. If you see light
you're home free. Drop a pulling cable into the wall, leaving plenty of
slack in the attic.
Return to the second floor, reach into the wall and snag the cable. Secure
the cable so it doesn't get tangled on the drill bit. Using an extension
and the 3/4" paddle bit drill a hole through the bottom plate of the wall
into the wall below -- directly above the hole on the first floor. Push a
few feet of pulling cable into the hole. Go to the first floor and repeat.
You now have a cable from attic to basement with which you can pull a decent
bundle of cables. If you expect to pull a lot of cables, change the 3/4"
paddle bit to a 1" model.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
erie patsellis
> since I've really heard it mentioned.
taps and all.... and a fiber run to each piece of equipment in the shop.
>
>
> - Is my network excessive for two people and a dog? (Ok, I kind of
> reached that point when I added my third ProLiant server, but besides
> that)
Not really, we have a touchscreen in every room, a tcp/ip based
automation system and two nearly full 100baset hubs. It's just me and
the wife, 2 dogs and a variable # of cats.
> - What are the average ages (and sizes) of home networks out there? I
> have a feeling mine is one of the older and larger, but I'm curious...
> Especially those lucky people who had networking built in.
>
My first home network had 2 MVII's, does that give you any idea...last I
heard, the infrastructure was still in place...
erie
Dan Lanciani
| My first home network had 2 MVII's, does that give you any idea...last I
| heard, the infrastructure was still in place...
My home network still has a MVII, along with several PDP11's and a Sun3. I
suspect I have one of the few 11/44's on fiber...
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Neil Cherry
> BTW, Rick, when you talk "5 bits + parity", aren't you talking "Baudot"?
> Good old 5 bit characters! Good old paper tape!
I don't know what Rick was talking about (I started in computers in
78) but the newspaper industry used TTS lo speed and high speed which
were also 5 bit. I seemed to remember other codes being used but they
varied from 5 bits to 7 bits (at the time ASCII didn't define the 8th
bit, I think it still doesn't). I also don't remember seeing a 6 bit
code (non parity).
cbnews.att.com!ncherry
rutgers.edu!diane.uucp!ncherry :-) I used to be on the maps!
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry nch...@comcast.net
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
Robert L. Bass
> 78) but the newspaper industry used TTS lo speed and high speed which
> were also 5 bit. I seemed to remember other codes being used but they
> varied from 5 bits to 7 bits (at the time ASCII didn't define the 8th
> bit, I think it still doesn't). I also don't remember seeing a 6 bit
> code (non parity).
I got started in '69. In those days it was EBCDIC. :^)
B Fuhrmann
> > 78) but the newspaper industry used TTS lo speed and high speed which
> > were also 5 bit. I seemed to remember other codes being used but they
> > varied from 5 bits to 7 bits (at the time ASCII didn't define the 8th
> > bit, I think it still doesn't). I also don't remember seeing a 6 bit
> > code (non parity).
>
> I got started in '69. In those days it was EBCDIC. :^)
EBCDIC was IBM's proprietary code.
Philx509
<rober...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I don't know what Rick was talking about (I started in computers in
>> 78) but the newspaper industry used TTS lo speed and high speed which
>> were also 5 bit. I seemed to remember other codes being used but they
>> varied from 5 bits to 7 bits (at the time ASCII didn't define the 8th
>> bit, I think it still doesn't). I also don't remember seeing a 6 bit
>> code (non parity).
>
>I got started in '69. In those days it was EBCDIC. :^)
>
>Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
>http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
>
>Regards,
>Robert
I got started in 1964 with BCD, running an IBM 7040 ($IBSYS) with a
card reader and the good old 1403 printer. Also did punch cards on an
026 card puncher, with a punch card drum control. Best way to do my
Fortran.
Then "graduated" to an IBM 360/50 with a whopping 64 KB of memory,
running OS something-or-other. Later on moved up to MFT, MVT, and
then MVS! By this time, I had replaced punch cards with CRJE and TSO.
Robert L. Bass
>
> EBCDIC was IBM's proprietary code.
In '69 there weren't as many choices as we have today. The dominant player
was IBM. Our school had a System 360. We wrote programs on coding sheets
and then used a keypunch to put the code onto 80-column cards. At the time
it seemed pretty impressive. :^)
The main language for business programming was COBOL, but we also dabbled in
Fortran and several others.
BruceR
very excited when we got a paper tape puncher! In 1968 I was told that
I might not graduate HS because I hadn't satisfactorily completed the
foreign language requirement. With the help of the Math Dept. head who
taught computer class, I convinced the Guidance Counselor that Fortran
was indeed a foreign language and that it should satisfy the
requirement. I don't know if she actually agreed or was just impressed
with the cleverness of the proposal but she bought it and I graduated.
Robert L. Bass
> very excited when we got a paper tape puncher! In 1968 I was told that
> I might not graduate HS because I hadn't satisfactorily completed the
> foreign language requirement. With the help of the Math Dept. head who
> taught computer class, I convinced the Guidance Counselor that Fortran
> was indeed a foreign language and that it should satisfy the
> requirement. I don't know if she actually agreed or was just impressed
> with the cleverness of the proposal but she bought it and I graduated.
Heh, heh, heh. Nice one.
I got into a bit of hot water over a Fortran app I wrote for class one day.
We were told to write a program that would calculate and print in tabular
form all of the prime numbers from one to 10,000. I figured a way to do it
with very few lines of code using the modulo (MOD) statement to test every
other integer.
My app ran fine and the printout on the chain drive (was it a 1308???) was
done in a few seconds. I decided that was so easy that I'd impress the
teacher by modifying my code to go from one to 100,000,000. I created a
table of primes from one to 10,000 and tested against those, again using the
MOD statement. It was the end of the day and it was my turn to secure the
computer room so I ran my app, closed the room and left. I figured I'd pick
up a few hundred pages of the perforated paper in the morning.
Unfortunately, I didn't realize how much computing time the MOD statement
used. The first few pages shot out like lightning but it got a little bit
slower with each succeeding page. By morning the chain printer was still
spitting out a line every ten seconds or so. I suspect IBM charged them
more for that app than I paid in tuition. I still aced the course but they
never asked me to lock up again. :^)
Philx509
<rober...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>I had a tech working for me some years back who kept a mechanic's dolly in
>his truck. He would lie down on it and roll around pulling cables through
>crawl spaces with a cordless drill, a hammer and a box of drive rings in his
>tool pouch. The guy was really fast.
Seems worth a try. If nothing else, you could put some padding on the
dolly, and make it a lot more comfortable that the rough concrete on
my crawl space.
>
>> And parts of the crawl space are filled with very
>> large, round heating ducts. The furnace is also in
>> the crawl space, and it's a forced-air setup.
>
>If there's enough room to get around to the various wall points where feeds
>will need to go up you may still be OK.
Actually, the ducts are very flexible, so I sort of slither under
them. That's if I'm too lazy to go around them. So, yes I can
still get to all the necessary wall points.
>
>>> there are much easier ways to rewire the first
>>> floor. If the attic is...
First floor is no problem. In fact, many of the rooms are already
wired with Thinnet, video (not RG6QS, so I'll need to replace it), and
telco. Any one of these can serve as an access point. The holes
through the subfloor and the first floor "floor plate" have already
been driller. They may need to be enlarged, through, in line with
recommendations from the Bass web site FAQ, but that is no big deal.
>>
>> There is a bit of an attic, but it's not too accessible.
>> The various parts of the attic are not connected to
>> each other.
>
>Every once in a while I used to run into a place like that. I sometimes
>wonder what the architect was thinking. :^)
Well, the problem is that for the outer walls of the house, the
roofline slopes down to the outer wall. I haven't been up in the
attic in quite a while, but I think that in the cavity space of the
outer walls there is practially zero working space. In other words,
how would I be able to position a drill or any other tools? Is it
necessary that I do the crawl-space-to-attic run through interior
walls?
On the other hand, if I think about the second story rooms, there is
plenty of space above the inside of the interior walls of these rooms.
>
>>> accessible, the upper floor can also be wired without
>>> punching holes in the drywall. I have an extensive
>>> FAQ primarily concerned with installing security and
>>> home automation systems in existing structures.
>>> However, many of the wiring techniques can easily be
>>> applied to installing CAT5, RG6, etc.
I just went through those FAQs and I think there is a lot of good
material for me. One question though. Are wire rings suitable for a
cable bundle consisting of two CAT5 (or 5e) and say 2 RG6QS? Should I
follow the conduit fill guide here? That is, might I need parallel
cable runs? Also, will with wwieght of the cable on either side of
the wire create bends in the cable that would affect signal quality?
>>>
>>> If you'll tell us a bit more about the age and layout of
>>> your home, perhaps I and several other experienced
>>> installers can give you some guidance.
>>
>> Great. \ and THANK YOU!!!
>
>No problem.
>
>> The house was originally built in 1953, wood frame
>> with stucco exterior.
>
>Most homes that age in the US were boxed sill construction. I have a FAQ
>page about running cables to protect windows in boxed sill. The technique
>applies equally to running structured wiring to wall outlets.
I was reading the FAQ about how to tell a boxed sill ouse apart from a
platform house. In the crawl space, the plumbing runs horizonally
along the floor of the crawl space, and then there are vertical pipes
to enter the house. Also, the original wiring is nailed up to the
underfloor, and then enters the house through holes in the subfloor.
The second story remodel, or at least part of it, was built as a
platform. I know, because I was on the job a lot. I did all the
electrical work as well as install all the telco cabling, the 10Base,
the video cables, 2, and speaker cables.
>
>> Second story was added on in two separate remodel
>> projects. I did one and the previous owner did the
>> first sometime before I bought the house. There is
>> also a crawl space, which I described above. Unlike
>> the attic sections, the crawl space is continuous from
>> the inner edges of the foundations.
>
>If you can access the outside walls in the crawl space most of the wiring
As I said, getting to the external walls from the crawl space is no
problemo. It's the attic part that is going to be a real bitch.
>should be doable without having to damage the walls. For example, if it's
>boxed sill all you need to do to wire a standard outlet is cut an opening to
>fit an old work gang box or (better) a single gang Caddy fastener. In case
>that's unfamiliar, here's an image:
>http://www.erico.com/public/images/products/FF-Datacomm/NorthAmerica/136963.jpg.
>
>Cut an opening in the drywall using the fastener as a template. Drop a few
>feet of cable in the wall, pushing it down past the insulation with an
>electrician's snake so. Measure horizontally from the nearest electrical
>outlet. In the crawl space measure the same distance back from the cable
>servicing the outlet above. Using a 3/4" paddle bit, bore a hole into the
>fire stop at a slight upward angle. Reach in with your snake and pull the
>cable out. It takes a few minutes to get the hang of it but once you've
>done a couple you'll be as fast as the average alarm installer. :^)
>
>> The forced air system includes two ducts that run
>> from the crawl space through the first-floor walls
>> up to two rooms, respectively, in the second story.
>
>If you can get to the attic above those rooms you may be able to slide the
>steel snake down along the outside of a duct to the basement. Whatever you
The forced air ducts do not go into the attic. They go into forced
air heating vents about 1 foot above floor level. That's as far as
they go, and I recall that getting an air duct into the existing
upstairs room was a real challenge for the contractor.
>do, DO NOT install any wiring inside an air duct. That's a major no-no.
>
>> The third upstairs room is a bathroom which is
>> heated by a floorboard level electric heater. No
>> forced air heating for that room because of the
>> difficulty of running a duct there.
>
>If you need to put cable on a room abutting the bathroom, you might luck out
>there. Bath tub and toilet draind are typically fed into vertical stacks
>called DWV (drain waste vent) pipes. These are large diameter and require a
>big hole. In the early fifties not many carpenters and plumbers used hole
>saws like they do today. The opening for the DWV was typically a square
>hole. With a little patience you can get a snake down from the attic to the
>crawl space next to the DWV. The pipe goes from the basement or crawl space
>all the way through the roof to the vent.
Wow! The bathroom upstairs was part of the 1989 remodel, so I would
have to check out the construction. Before this remodel there was a
simple toilet and sink setup in that area.
Thanks. I would probably want to do a 1" hole.
Lucas Tam
$536.21779102@attbi_s03:
> It's a soekris box (www.soekris.com). Not really a "mom" box, more
> for hobbyists. You have to get an OS onto the CF.
This looks cool... what type of case does this board fit into?
--
Lucas Tam (REMOV...@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
Robert L. Bass
> of the house, the roofline slopes down to the
> outer wall. I haven't been up in the attic in
> quite a while, but I think that in the cavity
> space of the outer walls there is practially zero
> working space.
In most homes it's the same. Yours is just a bit more complicated. Usually
it's no problem getting cable down interior walls. They're hollow and the
roof doesn't get in the way as much. End walls (those at either end of the
ridge beam) are usually easy to drill, too, because you can stand up or at
least kneel.
> In other words, how would I be able to position
> a drill or any other tools?
Those can be tough locations. Try for an end wall or an interior wall if at
all possible. Otherwise you may need to come down on an interior wall and
then run cables behind the baseboard molding.
> Is it necessary that I do the crawl-space-to-attic
> run through interior walls?
That's usually the best place for it. Look for a load bearing wall -- one
wall directly above another wall on the floor below. These are the simplest
places to run cables. Beware of fire stops though. If your walls are more
than eight feet high there may be horizontal dividers half-way up the wall
to slow the spread of fire. You can bypass fire stops with a bit of
patience, a drywall saw and a container of spackle but it's best if you can
avoid them by going up a wet wall (plumbing chase) or one of the other
places mentioned earlier.
> On the other hand, if I think about the second story
> rooms, there is plenty of space above the inside of
> the interior walls of these rooms.
That's common enough. The best thing you can do is think long and hard
about each location *before* you start. Draw up a list of locations. Scope
each one out to make sure it's doable and then start the job. Most of the
problems I deal with arise when folks get too anxious to start pulling
cables.
> I just went through those FAQs and I think there is a
> lot of good material for me...
Thanks :^)
> One question though. Are wire rings suitable for a
> cable bundle consisting of two CAT5 (or 5e) and say
> 2 RG6QS?
Drive rings are available with loop sizes greater than one inch. That will
easily accomodate 2 RG6QS + 2 CAT5 cables.
> Should I follow the conduit fill guide here?
Yep.
> That is, might I need parallel cable runs? Also,
> will with wwieght of the cable on either side of
> the wire create bends in the cable that would
> affect signal quality?
When I need to run more cables than I can accomodate in a ring I sometimes
loosely bundle the extras with wire ties outside the ring. I like to use
18" long wire ties. I wrap them several times around the bundle and then
just draw them snug enough to secure the cables without compressing them.
In attics and other inaccessible places that won't cause problems. In a
basement I either run a big conduit or several parallel runs of drive rings.
Every job is a little different. Common sense is more important than ridgid
rules.
> I was reading the FAQ about how to tell a boxed
> sill house apart from a platform house. In the
> crawl space, the plumbing runs horizonally along
> the floor of the crawl space, and then there are
> vertical pipes to enter the house.
OK, if those are on outside walls it's probably platform (Western) framing.
The procedure is very similar except that when you're in the basement you
drill straight up into the wall instead of horizontally. If you have a
D'Versi Bit or a Canadian FlexiDrill (two competing brands of drill bits
mounted on spring steel shafts) you can reach into the jack plate opening
and drill down into the bottom plate of the wall. Push the bit through and
stop the motor. There is a small hole in the flute of the bit, close to the
tip. Have your SO slip a single strand of 22-gauge, solid core wire through
the hole. Then back the drill out while turning the motor in reverse very
s-l-o-w-l-y until it passes through the bottom plate. Withdraw the bit,
secure your cable to it and have the SO gently pull the cable down to the
crawl space. You'll need a 3/4" bit and you may need to make more than one
hole per location depending on the number and size of the cables going
there.
I sell the bits online if you can't find one at Home Depot.
> Also, the original wiring is nailed up to the
> underfloor, and then enters the house through
> holes in the subfloor.
Yes, that sounds like platform framing alright. Just be careful that you
don't hit 110VAC when drilling for new services. If you don't use the same
stud bay as an outlet the chances of a wire hit will be significantly
reduced.
>> If you can access the outside walls in the crawl space most of the wiring
>
> As I said, getting to the external walls from the
> crawl space is no problemo. It's the attic part
> that is going to be a real bitch.
Better to deal with one that's in your attic than to marry one. :^)
Send me some digital pix of the place if you like. Maybe I'll have some
additional suggestions.
> The forced air ducts do not go into the attic.
> They go into forced air heating vents about 1
> foot above floor level. That's as far as they
> go, and I recall that getting an air duct into
> the existing upstairs room was a real challenge
> for the contractor.
OK, sounds like that's out.
>> If you need to put cable on a room abutting the
>> bathroom, you might luck out there. Bath tub
>> and toilet draind are typically fed into vertical
>> stacks called DWV (drain waste vent) pipes.
>> These are large diameter and require a big hole.
>> In the early fifties not many carpenters and plumbers
>> used hole saws like they do today. The opening
>> for the DWV was typically a square hole. With a
>> little patience you can get a snake down from the
>> attic to the crawl space next to the DWV. The
>> pipe goes from the basement or crawl space
>> all the way through the roof to the vent.
>
> Wow! The bathroom upstairs was part of the
> 1989 remodel, so I would have to check out the
> construction. Before this remodel there was a
> simple toilet and sink setup in that area.
They probably used the existing DWV stack. Give it a try and let me know if
you get through. Here's another thing I used to do in those situations. I
once bought a huge, tangled box of beaded chain (the stuff that's attached
to cheap ceiling lights) at a garage sale for something like $5. I would
untangle 20 or 30' of the stuff and keep it in my tool kit. You can pay
the stuff down into an opening alongside a duct, chimney or DWV stack and it
flows like water, finding whatever openings are there until it reaches the
basement. Everu so often it would hang up on something and I'd lose a few
yards of the stuff to the "wall monster" but that beaded chain solved many
fishing problems over the years. You might be able to buy a length of it
from someplace like Grainger's.
> Thanks. I would probably want to do a 1" hole.
Go for it. When you drill with a paddle bit, drill at a moderate speed and
do NOT press on the drill motor. Let the bit do the work and it won't hang
up on the last bit of wood as it comes through. A complete novice to the
trade once scolded me for suggesting paddle bits. Presumably he didn't know
how to use them. C'est la USENET. :^)
Happy fishing.
William Tasso
> ...
> - Does anyone else still use Coax for their network? It's been years
> since I've really heard it mentioned.
Just one link remaining: into a VMS box from a hub that's been rescued from
the skip to use as a media converter.
--
William Tasso