Another Recommendation Post
Southern
> > installation.
>
> That's an opinion which we do not share.
You don't install professionally. If you did you would not install PC
centric systems. PCs are fine for hobbyists, but not for professionals
installating for non technical clients. The supports costs are
overwhelming. Even using them as interfaces can lead to extensive customer
support.
> > Using X10 for thermostats is unacceptable at anytime.
>
> That's an opinion which we do share. HomeSeer supports Aprilaire. So do
> Crestron, AMX, Elan Home Systems, Premises Systems, JDS and a few others.
Do all of those systems control their thermostats via PLC? I think not.
Can they support the use of the RCS X10 thermostats, yes. PLC (X10 etc) is
not satisfactory for a safety function. which includes thermostats. Due to
support headaches, we don't like to install any X10, prefering hard wired
lighting control such as ALC.
Followups to CHA, since this is no longer on topic in ASA
Robert L. Bass
professional
> > > installation.
> >
> > That's an opinion which we do not share.
>
> You don't install professionally.
You're wrong, friend. I've been in this business over 26 years now. I
spent more than 20 of those years designing, installing, servicing and
monitoring -- professionally.
> If you did you would not install PC centric systems.
Once again, that's an opinion which we do not share. There are applications
for PC-based systems and there are others where a wall mounted cabinet is
best. There is no single, blanket solution.
> PCs are fine for hobbyists, but not for professionals installating
> for non technical clients.
That all depends upon how talented the installer is. If the tech knows what
he's doing either type can be a seamless, smooth running HA system. I've
also seen folks talk about using an Ocelot tied to a slew of other
single-board, limited function devices and call it a security system. IMO
that is *not* an alarm system though it would qualify as a hobby project.
Yet there are people whose systems are built just this way and thy perform
flawlessly. I've also seen Omni projects that were so poorly executed by
paid, "professional" installers that the homeowners had great difficulty
using them even for security.
FTR, that isn't intended as a slight against you or any other HA techs. The
point is that either approach can be golden of trashed, depending on ho it
is planned and executed.
> The supports costs are overwhelming...
??? I've had two servers running full-time in a colo site, hosting my
websites and those of a few associates for years. Support (other than
bandwidth) costs are practically non-existant. Once a month someone goes
into the boxes with a vacuum. Every so often I pay for an extension of the
anti-virus licenses. Once it's running a decent server can last for many
years without requiring service.
> Even using them as interfaces can lead to extensive customer
> support.
Not if you do it right and teach the customer well. This is just like the
selection of an alarm system. After you've installed the same product line
for a while you know it inside and out. If you're careful in your designs
the client won't
> > > Using X10 for thermostats is unacceptable at anytime.
> >
> > That's an opinion which we do share. HomeSeer supports Aprilaire. So
do
> > Crestron, AMX, Elan Home Systems, Premises Systems, JDS and a few
others.
>
> Do all of those systems control their thermostats via PLC? I think not.
No. The Napco / HomeSeer system, like the others, uses RS-232 / RS-485 to
control Aprilaire thermostats.
> Can they support the use of the RCS X10 thermostats, yes.
So?
> PLC (X10 etc) is not satisfactory for a safety function.
Absolutely correct.
> which includes thermostats.
I tend to agree.
> Due to support headaches, we don't like to install any X10,
> prefering hard wired lighting control such as ALC.
I'm not a fan of X10 either. It can, however, be made to work reliably
enough for non-safety funcrtions, such as convenience lighting. I don't
care for X10 thermostats any more than you do. I also would not use X10 for
detection of intrusion or hazards such as a basement flood. Fortunately,
neither Napco nor HomeSeer is constrained to use X10 for any of these
functions.
> Followups to CHA, since this is no longer on topic in ASA
If we flame each other it will remain on-topic for ASA. :^)
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics, Inc
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
=============================>
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
<xUedncSENMx...@comcast.com>:
>You don't install professionally. If you did you would not install PC
>centric systems. PCs are fine for hobbyists, but not for professionals
>installating for non technical clients. The supports costs are
>overwhelming. Even using them as interfaces can lead to extensive
customer
>support.
Dunno who Southern was chatting with over in thet thar alt pen -- jist
jumpin' in with the hope thet they don't foller us here ...
What Southern observes is what drove Savoy (CyberHouse) out of the home
business despite having head-and-shoulders the best software available that
supported multiple hardware vendors.
What I've dubbed a "federated" system has advantages both over
PC-dependent, like Homeseer and Premise Systems, and single controller,
PC-independent systems like Omni in my opinion.
In my case, I use Napco for security. We have a local professional
installer through whom we also have monitoring so the last time we got
zapped by lightning, he was able to come over and set things right for my
wife while I was out of town. The Napco of course talks to the PC as
needed, but the PC is never mandatory for the Napco to do its job.
We have Aprilaire (was Enerzone Statnet) thermostats but truth be known,
while I'm home it is easy to re-set the thermostats manually, and when
we're gone, there's no reason to change it. Ours is a large, poorly
insulated house with a lot of thermal mass and excessive riding of the
thermostat is neither effective nor efficient. As we get around to
insulating and rebuilding the two separate HVAC systems, one criteria for
selecting the contractor will be willingness to use the controllable
thermostats.Our thermostats can talk to the PC -- but it is never
mandatory.
The stuff that the Elks (equivalent to Ocelot/Stargate/Marrick in many
ways) control autonomously is mostly just convenience that one could live
without just fine -- never mandatory.
So ours is a federated "PC-centric" system that 1) does not depend on a PC
to work and 2) in which individual craft/tradesmen do not have to deal with
programming/controller for another craft/trade as security and HVAC folks
do with the Omni. As the various trades/crafts get more savvy, this
advantage will diminish.
The ideal commercial solution for lighting is more money than I have ;-)
which allows me the luxury of putzing with my own homebrew system. The
lighting system extends that confederated approach in that it is standalone
and has relatively graceful, stepwise reversion to manual operation.
My 2 cents ... Marc
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
www.ECOntrol.org
Frank Olson
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:_JidnVqRu-p...@giganews.com...
> > > > However, PC based automation is not suitable solution for a
> professional
> > > > installation.
> > >
> > > That's an opinion which we do not share.
> >
> > You don't install professionally.
>
> You're wrong, friend. I've been in this business over 26 years now. I
> spent more than 20 of those years designing, installing, servicing and
> monitoring -- professionally.
Read the statement again... It was in the present tense... and he's
right... you *don't* install professionally...
Southern
news:lv1okv8re2st2hh3p...@4ax.com...
> "Southern" <no@email> sez:
> >> > However, PC based automation is not suitable solution for a
professional
> >> > installation.
> >>
> >> That's an opinion which we do not share.
> >
> >You don't install professionally. If you did you would not install PC
> >centric systems. PCs are fine for hobbyists, but not for professionals
> >installating for non technical clients. The supports costs are
> >overwhelming. Even using them as interfaces can lead to extensive
customer
> >support.
>
> Hollywood. I tell you no lie when I say that a few years ago (last time I
> was out there), Aaron Spelling's mansion ran on a PC system. Including
his
> climate control system. I know because I was available on short notice to
> help with it and did some very minor work.
>
> I'd be surprised if you're considered more professional than whomever he
> used.
You pointed out the problem yourself...he needed a consultant on short
notice to work on it.
Its not that PC centric systems are inherently flawed, it is that they tend
to be less reliable than the systems they replace, and that creates
unacceptable demands on the installing companies. Reasons for that are
varied. They include:
- PC Hardware is less generally reliable than embedded hardware. Compare an
Ocelot, Napco, or Stargate to a PC for demonstrated MTBF.
- Commercial operating systems are less than reliable. This has been
getting better over the last few years.
- End user tampering. This is the biggie. Basically, the owners seem
unable to leave them alone. Then when they don't perform we get called.
When you ask what has changed, they insist nothing has been touched since we
were last there. The fact is that the home owners *upgrade* them, load
additional unrelated software, and connect them to the Internet without a
firewall. Then there were the times when we found a Quake and Half Life
server installed on a 300Mhz box and the teenage son's porn FTP site on
another.. Of course despite all of that, it is our responsibility to fix
things under warranty.
The goal of HA systems is to replicate the standalone systems and add
enhanced functionality and integration. Backsliding in user expected
functionality is not a good thing. Unreliability is a killer. If it
doesn't work, the customer calls you, any time of the day or night.
Reliability is the key to success and to getting a full night sleep on a
regular basis. Otherwise you spend all your time fixing things for which
getting paid for is very hard. That's why I don't install X10 if I can
possibly avoid it and avoid PC Centric HA, though I will do both under
duress. Its called WAF (wife acceptance factor) by many. However, I lose
significant money when the end user is unhappy.
Business motives aside, I also think it is unethical to install fragile
systems that requires constant care and attention from experts in
environments where that will not be available and what hands on it gets will
most likely be detrimental. One of my former competitors used to do just
that. His customers (end users and builders) spent a lot of money having
him come back for quick fixes and tune ups. Eventually the builders dumped
him and almost dumped HA in general. We have worked hard through good
design and product selection to turn that around.
Finally this is not a slap at Homeseer or other general purpose computer
based HA. I've run most of them over time, and Homeseer is critical to
keeping my family happy. They are innovative products that are pushing the
rest of the HA industry. However, as a guy who does this for money, I still
think using PC centric HA, where the computer has to be up for the lights to
work as expected, is not a good idea at the current state of the industry
and customer base.
Southern
news:r63okv8p71fd6b6t3...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:15:30 -0400, "Southern" <no@email> wrote in message
> <xUedncSENMx...@comcast.com>:
>
> >You don't install professionally. If you did you would not install PC
> >centric systems. PCs are fine for hobbyists, but not for professionals
> >installating for non technical clients. The supports costs are
> >overwhelming. Even using them as interfaces can lead to extensive
> customer
> >support.
>
> Dunno who Southern was chatting with over in thet thar alt pen -- jist
> jumpin' in with the hope thet they don't foller us here ...
Robert Bass
Point of clarification, PC Centric to me (and how it is generally used in
the trade pubs) is where the PC is required for basic operations such as
light scenes and automatic thermostat changes.
Others here have used the term federated in the past and I agree it is the
superior technical approach. The lights and heat have to work when the PC
is offline, but using the PC to provide nice to haves is often the best
approach due to its flexibility. Its how my own home is setup.
My concern is that any system not being maintained by its installer or
resident techie needs to be robust enough to tolerate abuse at the hands of
the ill-informed. X10 is not that robust and a PC just seems to invite
tampering. See my prior post in this thread for what we have found in that
regards. For example, could anyone else but you maintain Active Knob?
Currently we are looking and selling our home and building another. Clearly
I will need to gut the HA, since unless the buyer is a regular here in CHA
they would be unable to deal with all the cool gizmos. Practicing what I
preach will be a pain while the house is on the market.
Southern
news:FwV2b.44615$la.7...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
Actually I don't believe that Bass has never installed HA professionally. I
remember some raucous threads over that between Brian Karas and Bass
involving CPU-XA.
HA is different than just security since it is not a new function, but
impacts existing ones that users expectations for in terms of form, function
and reliability. Its a learning curve that we had to climb and its not as
simple or as intuitive as some would think. If you think customers whine
when the security system does not behave as expected, you should hear them
when its the lights.
Robert L. Bass
> > >centric systems. PCs are fine for hobbyists, but not for professionals
> > >installating for non technical clients. The supports costs are
> > >overwhelming. Even using them as interfaces can lead to extensive
> > customer
> > >support.
> >
> > Dunno who Southern was chatting with over in thet thar alt pen -- jist
> > jumpin' in with the hope thet they don't foller us here ...
>
> Robert Bass
He "jokingly" claimed that I don't install professionally despite knowing
that I've been in the business for over 26 years, most of that time
installing and servicing what I sell.
With the Napco / HomeSeer system which I like, the PC integrates things but
is not mandatory. You mentioned one brand of thermostats which use X10. I
carry Aprilaire which do not require X10. They communicate via RS-485.
> Others here have used the term federated in the past and I agree it is the
> superior technical approach. The lights and heat have to work when the PC
> is offline, but using the PC to provide nice to haves is often the best
> approach due to its flexibility. Its how my own home is setup.
It is also what the Napco / HomeSeer system does.
> My concern is that any system not being maintained
> by its installer or resident techie needs to be robust
> enough to tolerate abuse at the hands of the ill-informed.
> X10 is not that robust and a PC just seems to invite
> tampering.
However, X10 for convenience items can fail without major problems. Also,
HomeSeer can shut down without affecting Napco security or the Aprilaire
thermostats.
> See my prior post in this thread for what we have found
> in that regards. For example, could anyone else but you
> maintain Active Knob?
Active Knob is an experimental project. If it were available commercially
anyone could maintain it.
> Currently we are looking and selling our home and
> building another. Clearly I will need to gut the HA,
> since unless the buyer is a regular here in CHA they
> would be unable to deal with all the cool gizmos.
> Practicing what I preach will be a pain while the house
> is on the market.
If you had installed a Napco Gemini with or without HomeSeer you could leave
the system in place as a selling feature. Note: "Features" don't
necessarily add to the price but they can and do often make the home sell
sooner. The Omni system is too complex for most home buyers so out it goes.
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
<rqidnQVxgpT...@comcast.com>:
><MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
>news:r63okv8p71fd6b6t3...@4ax.com...
>>
OED : "Centric", from the Greek word for "center" through the Latin
"centrum": That is in or at the center; central.
So in my mind, a "federated system" (ABIK first used in this news group by
Dan Wright in late 1999) is PC-centric if it has a PC at its center,
typically with a star topology. There can be federated systems that have no
central PC that are interconnected through the devices' inputs and outputs
or other ports
If folks mean "PC-dependent", they should say so in my opinion.
After I sold my last house, the new owners' electrician cut off the ends of
the 1000's of feet of wire I installed, in some cases apparently as far
back in the wall as he could reach, and plastered over it. The gent thought
he was doing me a favor when he sent me the salvaged RJ-45 jacks with a
yard of wire still attached. (I'd rather not have known :-( This was five
years ago, and the HA climate has changed since then in most places.
Thanks for all your informative posts and the fact-based perspective you
bring to comp.home.automation.
Larry Jaques
>"Frank Olson" <(remove the "dot") ho...@shawdot.ca> wrote in message
Please leave that petty bickering crap to asa
and just talk HA here. Thanks.
-
- Let Exxon send their own troops -
-------------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Programming
Chuck Y
Southern wrote:
> "T-Cat" <robotryder at yahoo > wrote in message news:lv1okv8re2st2hh3p...@4ax.com...
>>"Southern" <no@email> sez:
>>>>>However, PC based automation is not suitable solution for a
> professional
>>>>>installation.
>>>>That's an opinion which we do not share.
...
>>I spent a while doing consulting work, often to the rich and famous in
>>Hollywood. I tell you no lie when I say that a few years ago (last time I
>>was out there), Aaron Spelling's mansion ran on a PC system. Including his
>>climate control system. I know because I was available on short notice to
>>help with it and did some very minor work.
>>
>>I'd be surprised if you're considered more professional than whomever he
>>used.
>
> You pointed out the problem yourself...he needed a consultant on short
> notice to work on it.
>
> Its not that PC centric systems are inherently flawed, it is that they tend
Actually part of it IS that Windows systems are inherently flawed.
When the control system for a (powered down) Ohio Energy plant is
infected with the Blaster Worm - which is there because security barely
even seems to be an afterthought. So Win-PC centric systems are
less reliable, they are prone to crashes and security issues.
I've got boxes that have been running without a reboot for over 3 years.
I can't run Windows for a month without a REQUIRED patch that wants a
reboot.
You can't do "invisible infrastructure" like that. People should
presume that their HA system is just there. like electricity, like
my phone, like I *know* that my heat will turn up at 7AM every cold
morning.
TALK to the system, change settings via Windows (or cell phone browser
or wireless PDA or by talking in a room). Don't run it on that.
> - PC Hardware is less generally reliable than embedded hardware. Compare an
> Ocelot, Napco, or Stargate to a PC for demonstrated MTBF.
Commodity hardware can be questionable. I'm compulsive about the brands
of RAM I'll use and the power supplies (and fans on those machines).
My soekris 4501 is the size of a hub, dead quiet (it boots from compact
flash), it's got a little IO, 3 ethernets and wireless and 2 RS-232s.
It is the brains of the house. It talks to many serial devices via an
ethernet based terminal server. It also happens to act as a firewall,
a DHCP server, DNS server, and IPv6 gateway. And it talks web interface
to show house stats. Running a BSD. around 10 watts.
I expect it will last as long as the netgear hub it sits upon. That hub
replaced a 16 port 10baseT that was 7 years old and replaced for speed.
> - Commercial operating systems are less than reliable. This has been
> getting better over the last few years.
Define what's NOT a commercial OS.
You mean a general purpose OS? I can agree there. Different goals.
But I have a linux PDA that's never gone wonky. You'd not know it was
linux, but I put ssh on it.
> - End user tampering. This is the biggie. Basically, the owners seem
That's just interfaces you allow. I've welded closed 1U's with pretty
colors and nobody needs know it's a PC.
> Of course despite all of that, it is our responsibility to fix
> things under warranty.
You need to redefine warrantee.
> The goal of HA systems is to replicate the standalone systems and add
> enhanced functionality and integration. Backsliding in user expected
> functionality is not a good thing. Unreliability is a killer.
Yeah, 99.999% reliable is just expected. Things should not "change"
randomly.
> That's why I don't install X10 if I can
> possibly avoid it and avoid PC Centric HA, though I will do both under
> duress. Its called WAF (wife acceptance factor) by many. However, I lose
> significant money when the end user is unhappy.
And there's a balance to be struck. I don't really want closed systems
cause they don't do EVERYTHING I can come up with. Clear interfaces are
key. And X10 is a fine low cost way to do SOME things as long as
expectations are clear. My heater will never run amok. I can monitor
it, I get set it to "vacation" and "normal". But my system, which
is complex, does not do the micromanagement. Simple systems do this
(a thermostat).
The pros, generally, haven't met the needs of the public - just a niche.
HA scares a lot of people (who see it as complex and expensive).
People see it as whole house audio (good, I don't need to see wires
to those 3 sets of speakers) and then see a $8000 cost with that.
X10 isn't great, but LutronRF wants 5 figures for what I do for
under $600 in X10.
Hell, a great example of a success in this arena is TiVo - they invented
time shifting smart VCR replacements. And joe six-pack doesn't go for
it (so far).
X10 is a great way to introduce the NOTIONS to people (mom can turn off
the lights downstairs from bed and (big win) turn on the coffee machine
when she wakes up - whenever that is). (WAF here is moot - the girl
runs 150 unix boxes with 20 TB of disk).
The balance comes when advanced hobbyists have the tools to do what we
want and the pros pay a little attention and make it (or what we want)
available.
The hobbyists need to do integration work that pros just don't think
of, the pros need to innovate and also watch and then offer stuff at
fair prices.
Sure, it's great to land a customer who'd gonna drop $20k on stereo
and another $50k on home automation, but I'd rather have the stuff to
let my in law in a wheelchair live a little easier. He's got no
interest cause the industry advertises and writes articles to the former
people. "Innovator's Dilemma" comes to mind. The industry is small
because it thinks small.
> Business motives aside, I also think it is unethical to install fragile
> systems that requires constant care and attention from experts in
> environments where that will not be available and what hands on it gets will
> most likely be detrimental. One of my former competitors used to do just
Good recovery. These guys shouldn't be taking money for essentially
hobby systems.
> Finally this is not a slap at Homeseer or other general purpose computer
> based HA. I've run most of them over time, and Homeseer is critical to
> keeping my family happy. They are innovative products that are pushing the
> rest of the HA industry. However, as a guy who does this for money, I still
> think using PC centric HA, where the computer has to be up for the lights to
> work as expected, is not a good idea at the current state of the industry
> and customer base.
Yup. But lets say "windows centric".
Robert L. Bass
This thread is getting to be like arguing the merits of cultural diversity
with Shiite. It matters not how good your argument is. The religious
zealot only has room for his ideas. Sorry, Chuck. No offense but you're
way too hung up on the Unix vs Windows jihad. There are an awful lot of
good things being done using MS platforms. Properly configured and operated
they are more than secure enough for the sort of applications we're talking
about -- integrating various stand-alone subsystems into a cohesive HA
system.
We're not building Millstone IV here. We're making homes more convenient,
efficient and enjoyable.
> When the control system for a (powered down) Ohio Energy plant...
or a nuclear misile firing control system...
> You can't do "invisible infrastructure" like that. People should
> presume that their HA system is just there.
If it's done right the Windows platform can integrate 99.993% of the time
but allow everything to function fine in its absence the other 0.007% of the
time. I set up one of my machines to download the latest NAV files and MS
patches once a week and then reboot. The machine is down about 2-3 minutes
on a certain day at a time when I'm usually asleep. I consider laving the
thermostat to make its own decisions for that brief period entirely
acceptable. My alarm is not dependant on the PC at all.
> like electricity
Your HA system can't guaranty the electric utility will provide 220VAC to
your town, let alone your home.
> like my phone
Same limitation.
> like I *know* that my heat will turn up at 7AM every cold morning.
And if by some twist of fate one day it does not I will reach for the
thermostat and press the up arrow a few times. This is nothing to get all
bent out of shape about.
> TALK to the system, change settings via Windows (or cell phone
> browser or wireless PDA or by talking in a room).
All doable with Napco / HomeSeer.
> Don't run it on that.
Or do. It's partly a personal preference. If you want new features you
have to wait for HAI to write a new firmware release or buy the next larger
panel. If I want new features from HomeSeer I can write some code and add
them or buy a patch or plug-in for a few dollars.
>> - PC Hardware is less generally reliable than embedded hardware.
However, it is usually significantly easier and less expensive to upgrade.
>> Compare an Ocelot, Napco, or Stargate to a PC for demonstrated MTBF.
With the Napco system there are hundreds of technicians who can support it
if you have a problem. Software, manuals and general knowledge of the
product are widespread. With a home-brew mixt of Ocelots, Leopards and
various other predators, no one but the original installer is likely to know
what it does, how it works or (more importantly) how to fix it when -- not
if -- it breaks.
> That's just interfaces you allow. I've welded closed 1U's with pretty
> colors and nobody needs know it's a PC.
Since almost all of my clients are DIY'rs that would be counter-productive
for me. :^)
Andrew Burgess
>> Actually part of it IS that Windows systems are inherently flawed.
>Sorry, Chuck. No offense but you're
>way too hung up on the Unix vs Windows jihad. There are an awful lot of
>good things being done using MS platforms. Properly configured and operated
>they are more than secure enough for the sort of applications we're talking
>about -- integrating various stand-alone subsystems into a cohesive HA
>system.
...
Didn't you just say your next server would be running linux? Why?
Robert L. Bass
No. It's my next website. I'm not dropping the existing sites -- just
adding another. That one's on an e-shopping mall and the nice people there
are running Linux. I have nothing against Linux. It's fine for what it
does. I just disagree with folks who believe it's the *only* acceptable
platform.
Remember FutureStandard? The owner of that site bought his first system and
got his early tech support from me. A while later he decided to open his
own online store. He then declared that my new NT server would bog down and
fail very quickly while his site thrived -- all because he was running Unix.
I'm still here...
There's a lot more to home automation systems, like web servers, than which
OS you choose. There's also a lot more to running a business, but that's
another thread. The real key is to stay open and flexible. There are times
when I know that what I sell is exactly what the job calls for. Other times
something else from a different supplier is best. It would be self-serving
and less than honest to suggest that *my way* is the only acceptable way to
do all HA projects.
OK, time to put away the soap box. I'm heading to the ADI Expo today.
Maybe I'll have news of something interesting to post when I return.