What is the speed of X10? And can you use it for data communications?
Dan Mabbutt
I've been wondering it it would be possible to hook X10 PC interfaces to two
PC's and use it as a sort of LAN wiring. How fast does it run? Does anyone
already offer a product that does this? Does anyone see any problems doing
this?
(:{)
Mitchell S. Cohen
In article <eJ$a8iWH9GA.261@upnetnews04>, "Dan Mabbutt"
<Seig...@msn.com> wrote:
X-10 signals ride the 50/60Hz waves of AC power, with one data bit per
wave. The actual X-10 signals take 11 bits, I beleive. If you were to
use the same principle, developing your own protocol (maybe using a
TW-523), the best you could hope for is 60bps. At such a tiny fraction of
standard ethernet (10Mbps), that doesn't make for very efficient
throughput.
By my quick calculation, transferring a 100KB file would take just over
nine days, assuming an error-free transfer with no timing/block/parity
bits added. Otherwise, use a floppy disk to transfer the file and take
the rest of the week off.
Dave Houston
There is at least one non-X10 system that uses the AC powerline for data
transmission with rates in the 1kbps range. Sorry, but I can't recall the
name or a URL.
Michael Olin
Dave Houston wrote:
>
> mco...@msystems.com (Mitchell S. Cohen) wrote:
>
> >In article <eJ$a8iWH9GA.261@upnetnews04>, "Dan Mabbutt"
> ><Seig...@msn.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I've been wondering it it would be possible to hook X10 PC interfaces to two
> >> PC's and use it as a sort of LAN wiring. How fast does it run? Does anyone
> >> already offer a product that does this? Does anyone see any problems doing
> >> this?
> >
> >X-10 signals ride the 50/60Hz waves of AC power, with one data bit per
> >wave. The actual X-10 signals take 11 bits, I beleive. If you were to
> >use the same principle, developing your own protocol (maybe using a
> >TW-523), the best you could hope for is 60bps. At such a tiny fraction of
> >standard ethernet (10Mbps), that doesn't make for very efficient
> >throughput.
> There is at least one non-X10 system that uses the AC powerline for data
> transmission with rates in the 1kbps range. Sorry, but I can't recall the
> name or a URL.
Several weeks ago someone posted a message in this newsgroup about
having developed a comm device that could transfer upwards of 2400bps
which makes it the equivalent of a fairly old modem. Not much use
in data transfer, at this speed, but as a controlling device which
can accept feedback conditions from the recipient module, that's
not too bad.
--
.__________. http://people.mw.mediaone.net/olinm/ .___________.
|||
Keep up the fight ||| I love my country but
or lose the right / | \ I fear my government
It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone
collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is
someone being served. Make no mistake about it, the man who speaks to
you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters - and he intends to
be the master.
-- Ayn Rand
William C. Biggs MD
It puts bits at the zero crossing point of your AC carrier. Since it
crosses zero twice, 60 times a second, it would have a whopping 120 Hz.
Thats Hertz, not Mega, Not Kilo, that's Hertz.
Not exactly Cat 5 specs, huh ??
X-10 isn't suitable for a low cost LAN, unless you have a lot of time on
your hands. You could work at minimum wage at Taco Bell, spend 1/3 of your
income on cable and Ethernet adapters, and have everything paid for before
you transferred your first gif file of Madonna across the house.
Cable is cheap. Think of it as an investment.
James C,
Dan Mabbutt wrote in message ...
>I've been wondering it it would be possible to hook X10 PC interfaces to
two
>PC's and use it as a sort of LAN wiring. How fast does it run? Does
anyone
>already offer a product that does this? Does anyone see any problems doing
>this?
>
>(:{)
>
>
Dave Houston
mco...@msystems.com (Mitchell S. Cohen) wrote:
>In article <eJ$a8iWH9GA.261@upnetnews04>, "Dan Mabbutt"
><Seig...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been wondering it it would be possible to hook X10 PC interfaces to two
>> PC's and use it as a sort of LAN wiring. How fast does it run? Does anyone
>> already offer a product that does this? Does anyone see any problems doing
>> this?
>
>X-10 signals ride the 50/60Hz waves of AC power, with one data bit per
>wave. The actual X-10 signals take 11 bits, I beleive. If you were to
>use the same principle, developing your own protocol (maybe using a
>TW-523), the best you could hope for is 60bps. At such a tiny fraction of
>standard ethernet (10Mbps), that doesn't make for very efficient
>throughput.
>
>By my quick calculation, transferring a 100KB file would take just over
>nine days, assuming an error-free transfer with no timing/block/parity
>bits added. Otherwise, use a floppy disk to transfer the file and take
>the rest of the week off.
I found the URL to the company that uses the powerline for networking.
William C. Biggs MD
Dave Houston wrote in message <34b8bf83...@nntp.iglou.com>...
>I found the URL to the company that uses the powerline for networking.
>
> http://www.intelogis.com/inteloport.htm
>
>
>http://www.houstonsoftware.com
Dave,
That's not X-10. They use an entirely different protocol. ALSO, since this
is the comp.home.automation group, he should be aware that use of other
powerline devices like LANs and Phone-via-110v-wiring will interfere with
X-10 signals to the point that X-10 will be useless.
The Intelogis stuff is 350,000 bps, vs slow Ethernet 10,000,000 bps vs
Token Ring 16,000,000 bps vs Fast Ethernet 100,000,000 bps.
That's roughly 300 times faster. The price of the Intelogis stuff is
similar to Fast Ethernet adapters. The only difference is wiring cost.
I would buy the Cat5 cable, have faster networking, and still be able to use
X10.
Reddy
Dan Haynes
Dan Mabbutt wrote:
>
> I've been wondering it it would be possible to hook X10 PC interfaces to two
> PC's and use it as a sort of LAN wiring. How fast does it run? Does anyone
> already offer a product that does this? Does anyone see any problems doing
> this?
X10 is way too slow.
CEBUS can run roughly 9600 baud.
Good quality ethernet coax adapters can be had for about $30 each and a
chunk of coax for about $20 and the drivers and software are already
written and included with Win 95/NT.
Just my $0.02 worth...
Dan
dc1...@mindspring.com
What is the speed of an AC powerline? It's 60Hz! Guess what?
Baud(ot) = hertz. Therefore, you get 60 baud, or 60 BPS. Nice try.
Ingo Pakleppa
Actually, I think X-10 encodes signals at every 0-crossing. Which would
allow for 120 Baud. Incidentally, BPS isn't necessarily the same as
Baud. I'm not sure if X-10 encodes only a single bit with every
zero-crossing; it might be more, which would increase the data rate from
a sloth's pace to a snail's pace...
Just picking nits...
Neil Cherry
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:38:24 -0800, Ingo Pakleppa <in...@cts.com> wrote:
>Actually, I think X-10 encodes signals at every 0-crossing. Which would
>allow for 120 Baud. Incidentally, BPS isn't necessarily the same as
>Baud. I'm not sure if X-10 encodes only a single bit with every
>zero-crossing; it might be more, which would increase the data rate from
>a sloth's pace to a snail's pace...
>
>Just picking nits...
You are correct!
>dc1...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> What is the speed of an AC powerline? It's 60Hz! Guess what?
>> Baud(ot) = hertz. Therefore, you get 60 baud, or 60 BPS. Nice try.
What does this have to do with the price of beans in Chile? Guess what?
Carrier frequency doesn't directly apply to baud or BPS.
X10 sends the same bit, 3 times (each bit at when it thinks the zero
crossing for each phase will occur (of a 3 phase system)), 1ms
duration (120khz on a 60hz carrier), this is considered 1 bit. Makes
sense when you consider that most homes (in the US) only use 2 of the
phases (240).
--
Neil Cherry http://home.att.net/~ncherry (Not much there yet)
If you need to contact me via email please use this email address to
respond: Lnch...@worldnet.att.net
(DELETE the L before my name)
Fred Graham
>Actually, I think X-10 encodes signals at every 0-crossing. Which would
>allow for 120 Baud. Incidentally, BPS isn't necessarily the same as
>Baud. I'm not sure if X-10 encodes only a single bit with every
>zero-crossing; it might be more, which would increase the data rate from
>a sloth's pace to a snail's pace...
>
>Just picking nits...
>
>dc1...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>> What is the speed of an AC powerline? It's 60Hz! Guess what?
>> Baud(ot) = hertz. Therefore, you get 60 baud, or 60 BPS. Nice try.
>
>
Lets not forget that bits per second is meaningless anyway. I cannot
send a single bit across and have it convey a complete command or
action. I must send a series of bits ie the protocol. When you
compare any communications you need to look at how many transactions
or messages can be delivered both in a burst and sustained mode.
Given that, X-10 really only delivers about 1-2 messages per second
and those are not data oriented.
Conclusion: X-10 is hardly the choice for data communications
Regards,
Fred Graham, Field Applications Engineer - Echelon
http://www.echelon.com
http://www.lonmark.org
Due to increased SPAM traffic, I have resorted to a butchered respond to. Please remove the XYZ and 123 in order to respond directly
Dave Houston
"William C. Biggs MD" <spamfree...@usa.net> wrote:
>Dave,
>
>That's not X-10. They use an entirely different protocol. ALSO, since this
>is the comp.home.automation group, he should be aware that use of other
>powerline devices like LANs and Phone-via-110v-wiring will interfere with
>X-10 signals to the point that X-10 will be useless.
I didn't say it was X-10. Had you noticed my initial post in the thread, I
said it was NOT X-10. The second post was only to update the thread with the
URL.
>The Intelogis stuff is 350,000 bps, vs slow Ethernet 10,000,000 bps vs
>Token Ring 16,000,000 bps vs Fast Ethernet 100,000,000 bps.
>
>That's roughly 300 times faster. The price of the Intelogis stuff is
>similar to Fast Ethernet adapters. The only difference is wiring cost.
>
>I would buy the Cat5 cable, have faster networking, and still be able to use
>X10.
I agree - IF you're building a new house or can readily run new wire in an
old house. For an old house it offers both fairly decent speed and
reasonable cost.
Doug Harper
Dave:
I just came across your question regarding speed. It is NOT the fastest
protocol, HOWEVER, there are instances where cable (cat5) cannot be run,
for example on a ship, or in a concrete building where the only solution
is to use the existing wiring. We have been sending e-mail ove the AC
wire for a couple of years. For short messages, it is very fast. Most
people today are lost in the numbers. When using X-10 you need 11 zero
crosses per 'byte' or roughtly 10 characters per seconds. A short
message is very quick. We have been using the extended code and have
developed our own command set and transmit anything. For example our
beta TW523's run at 20MHz and process anything. It is a viable medium,
but not for large files.
--
--------------------------
Doug Harper
President
Baran-Harper Group Inc
Canada
Voice: 905.294.6473 FAX: 905.471.9574 Web: Baran-Harper.com
Distributors of X-10, LEVITON, DSC Alarms and other neat stuff
Dave Houston
Doug Harper <do...@interlog.com> wrote:
>Dave:
>
>I just came across your question regarding speed. It is NOT the fastest
>protocol, HOWEVER, there are instances where cable (cat5) cannot be run,
>for example on a ship, or in a concrete building where the only solution
>is to use the existing wiring. We have been sending e-mail ove the AC
>wire for a couple of years. For short messages, it is very fast. Most
>people today are lost in the numbers. When using X-10 you need 11 zero
>crosses per 'byte' or roughtly 10 characters per seconds. A short
>message is very quick. We have been using the extended code and have
>developed our own command set and transmit anything. For example our
>beta TW523's run at 20MHz and process anything. It is a viable medium,
>but not for large files.
Doug:
It was not MY question.
Had you followed the thread you'd know that it was someone else's question
and that I initially responded by saying that there was a company that was
using a non-X10 protocol for data transfer over the power lines but that I
couldn't remember the details. The very next morning, there was a reference
to the company I was trying to remember (Intelogis) in the New York Times
and I then posted a follow-up with their URL.
Having once spent two years installing commercial sound systems in the SF
Bay region (in the pre-solid state, pre-LAN days of the early '60s), I'm
well aware of how difficult and costly it can be to run new wire in an
existing structure. I've ridden the tops of elevators to string wire, I've
left several drill bits embedded in the thick, laminated wooden beams that
were used to support supermarket roofs, and occasionally had to rent special
equipment to drill large diameter holes through concrete walls and floors
when the architect overlooked the need for a sound system.
I'm now disabled and live in an apartment in a nice neighborhood but in a 50
year old building with masonry and plaster walls. I do a bit of software
development for my son's company and often have one PC in one room and
another in another room. The Intelogis system or even your beta TW523's
could let me network them without having to spend a fortune.
And, each of my grandchildren has their own PC. While they have no need for
a high speed LAN, they could benefit from something like the Intelogis
system so that each could share the color printer connected to their
mother's PC. And, when they move to larger houses, they can take their
network with them.
Craig Lee
Well I have an advertisment here for the PLUM Power Line modem. It is a
serial interface device that is capable of 300-57.6k baud. However, they
also profess that it has an actual throughput up to 3000 bits per second. Thus,
I
think your maximum baud would be limited to something like 12K.
Anyway give them a look see: www.computerwise.com
Craig
Dan Mabbutt wrote:
> I've been wondering it it would be possible to hook X10 PC interfaces to two
> PC's and use it as a sort of LAN wiring. How fast does it run? Does anyone
> already offer a product that does this? Does anyone see any problems doing
> this?
>
> (:{)
JandR
I always thought the speed was really low... I know the interface to the
CM11a only runs at 75 baud in standard mode.
(at least that's what it set the port values to in nt)
Considering what a NIC costs... as low as $15 for a 10 baseT or thin
ethernet card... why not do it the right way?
Considering the distane limitations with X10... by the time you get it
perfected (and have to re-examine noise problems when you add a new
appliance or when the transformer outside gets old...) plus theres no
collision detection or error compensation built into the hardware...
Youre just better off going with ethernet. 2 cards at $15, plus $15 for a
60 foot cable.
Heck the modules run at least as much as the cards.