Home network / wireless network router questions.
Jason
I'm renovating my home and I want to install a combo wired and
wireless network through the house. I'm already pulled two cat 5e
wires from a wiring closet to each room and I'm now at the stage where
I'm planning how to tie it all together. BTW the only thing the
network will really be used for is sharing a cable modem connection to
the internet and XBOX linkplay games.
I'm going to have about about 18 drops in the house and also want to
have wireless cover the house and backyard. My question is about
hardware.
I'm planing on using a Dlink wireless AP in the wiring closet and a
DWL 900ap+ in repeater mode to repeat the signal to the back yard.
The only problem that I have with the dlink router that I have now is
that is locks up alot and I have to reset it by unplugging it. Is this
common to all routers? What causes this? collisions? hacking?
Does spending a little more money on a hardwired router increase the
reliability by alot?
I'm assuming I need a router. Could someone tell me the difference
(briefly) between a router, switch, hub, and bridge?
Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
J
John Stark
> I'm planing on using a Dlink wireless AP in the wiring closet and a
> DWL 900ap+ in repeater mode to repeat the signal to the back yard.
> The only problem that I have with the dlink router that I have now is
> that is locks up alot and I have to reset it by unplugging it. Is this
> common to all routers? What causes this? collisions? hacking?
could be that, or could be you simply need a firmware upgrade
> Does spending a little more money on a hardwired router increase the
> reliability by alot?
lets get our terms straight first. where is this router in you network?
Just want to make sure it is really a router ;-)
> I'm assuming I need a router. Could someone tell me the difference
> (briefly) between a router, switch, hub, and bridge?
Below is a good one from basshome.com's FAQ. What you need is your DSL/cable
modem, that goes into a router with NAT capabilties, then that goes into a switch
or hub, and finally the drops from throughout your house plug into the switch
or hub. One drop from the switch/hub will plug into your wireless access point.
Ideally the AP will be located upstairs in your house. And BTW you must have
one damned big yard to require a repeater. With the AP in the upstairs you should
be able to get service at very least several hundred feet in any direction (which
also means neighbours can easily tap into your network unless you secure it)
-js
From Basshome :
Let's assume we have a small office with 6 computers in it, and we want to network them with each other. We'll call them Smith,
Jones, Welenzsky, Kowalski, McFadden and McDuff. What will we need for this job?
The quick answer is that we need either a switch or a hub, as each of these is used to link together computers which are close to
each other on the logical (but not necessarily physical) network. So how do we know which of those we need?
Well, as it turns out they both do the exact same thing from the point of view of low-end to average users who aren't hard-core
computer geeks like me. That is, if you read E-Mail, surf a bit of the web and so on, then both a switch and a hub will give you
connectivity between your 6 machines which is several 10s of times faster than even a high-speed Internet connection. Both will be
found commonly in 10Mbit, 100Mbit and in larger offices some amount of 1Gbit is showing up, though primarily on servers and
office-to-office links right now. High-speed home DSL is commonly in the ballpark of 1Mbit "downstream" and about 1/10th that or
120Kbit "upstream" (to the Internet). With "corporate" level service that can be up to 8Mbit "downstream" (from the Internet) and 1
to 1.5Mbit up.
Anyway, the big difference in these two guys is that a hub is just a dumb-old box that for all intents and purposes can be
considered a single wire to which all 6 computers are connected. And as it so happens the ethernet protocol knows how to negotiate
access to a single wire (or so it's called - ethernet actually uses 4 wires) when many computers are attached to it. The thing is,
however, that only 2 computers may talk on the wire at a time, so that if Smith were talking to Jones, all of Welenzsky, Kowalski,
McFadden and McDuff would remain silent. A switch on the other hand has a central intelligent processing core commonly known as a
"backplane", and where the hubbed network can be viewed as a single wire, a switched network is more like the radials of a spider's
web, with your 6 computers one at the end of each radian.
This intelligent "backplane" of a switch allows for Smith to talk to Jones, while Walenzsky talks to Kowalski, and McFadden talks to
McDuff. Furthermore, since each computer has it's own private or "dedicated" wire from itself to the "backplane", full-duplex mode
can be used which allows for simultaneous transmission in both directions. In the first instance the "dedicated" bandwidth means
that a 100Mbit switch can actually allow 100Mbit conversations in both directions, which in turn means that if the conversation or
rather information were roughly the same in both directions, then we'd actually have 200Mbits of bandwidth. So if you then consider
that the backplane could allow 3 of these conversations to take place at once, we have a 600Mbit potential on that switch's
backplane. In fact, since most switches come with at least 8 to 12 ports, the potential throughput on it is up to 1.2Gbit if this
does not surpass the speed of the backplane (which it should not for most good switches these days). But even if you had 12
computers connected to a hub (or "dumb hub" as they are often redundantly called), your maximum potential throughput is still only
100Mbit. And forget about full-duplex, don't forget.
Where switches and hubs are used to connect computers on the local network, routers are used to connect these local networks
together, making larger LANs, MANs and WANs (Local Area Networks, Metro Area Networks and Wide Area Networks, respectively). Where
switches and hubs generally (though not always - some swithes have Gig ports, and some higher end ones even have ATM) have ports of
the same type (e.g. 100Mbit ethernet), routers almost by definition will have different types of ports like 10/100/1000 ethernet,
ATM, dialup, ISDN BRI, T1, Frame Relay and so on. And in technical jargon a switch operates at "Layer 2" and a router at "Layer 3",
but layers are a topic for another discussion.
So in short, switches and hubs are similar devices used to connect computers together on the same local network, and routers are
then used to connect those smaller networks to each other and to the rest of the world.
Copyright (c) 2001, Alan W McKay
http://www.alanmckay.com/computers/ethernet/
Ed: Minor changes were made to the original text to correct typographical errors and redundancies. Bass Home Electronics thanks Alan
McKay for this helpful article.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One more thing that wasn't mentioned is the difference between 10 and 100-Mbit speeds.
Generally speaking, you're not too likely to find a hub that will auto-switch between devices that operate at different speeds. They
have to either all be 100-Mbit, or you'll end up with everything running at 10.
On the other hand, most switches will autosense the speed of each device connected to it, and negotiate the traffic at the highest
speed possible for a given transfer. So having one 10-Mbit device on a switch doesn't slow everything else down.
Dan Wilga
E-Mail the author of this comment
Dave Houston
>I'm planing on using a Dlink wireless AP in the wiring closet and a
>DWL 900ap+ in repeater mode to repeat the signal to the back yard.
>The only problem that I have with the dlink router that I have now is
>that is locks up alot and I have to reset it by unplugging it. Is this
>common to all routers? What causes this? collisions? hacking?
I have a D-Link 713P Wireless Router with 4-port Switch and Print Server. I
have never experienced a single incident of trouble. Two ports connect to my
desktop machines, one connects to an 8-port hub which I use for some
Ethernet-to-serial adapters and for some embedded PCs. I have a D-Link
wireless PC Card for my laptop. My son connects wirelessly whenever he is
here using the built-in WiFi on his Toshiba laptop.
>Does spending a little more money on a hardwired router increase the
>reliability by alot?
I doubt it.
daytripper
In the home user context, a router bridges a LAN to a WAN. The router
determines whether an IP address is bound for a LAN agent or not. If the
address is not within the LAN the packet is directed to the WAN.
A hub is a half-duplex device that ties multiple ports together and can
provide an uplink port for cascading to another device. Only one agent can
communicate at a time, and only in one direction at a time.
A switch also ties multiple port together, but it is a full-duplex device, so
agents can talk and listen at the same time. Further, most switches are
non-blocking so more than one agent can be communicating at the same time (say
port 1 can be having a full-duplex dialog with port 2, even while another
dialog exists between agents on port 3 and 4, etc).
One major difference between a router verses hubs and switches is the latter
two have no concept of "lan vs wan", or even "subnet vs subnet". Considering
how cheap switches have become, hubs are no longer worthy devices for
consideration in implementing a new network topology.
"Bridge" devices take many forms but in their simplest incarnation they form a
filtered link from one network segment to another. A bridge can be used to
keep intranode traffic on one side from needlessly broadcasting to the other
side, which can be useful in certain applications. Eg: my company bridges the
lan segments in our test labs to the corporate backbone so that the extreme
loading put on the lab segments doesn't render the main lan unusable.
Imho, the ideal topology for small, mixed-media lans has the cable modem
connected to a wired-only router/switch uplinked to standalone wireless access
point(s). This allows the WAPs to be strategically located for best
transception (<= can you believe that "word" doesn't exist - yet? ;-) which
can be very useful as it is not uncommon that the best locations for the WAPs
are nowhere near the best location for the central wiring closet.
And if more switched ports are required, another switch can be uplinked to the
router.
Our cable modem uplinks to a router/4-port 10/100 switch which in turn uplinks
to an 802.11a WAP and an 8 port 10/100 switch. The WAP was located for best
coverage and as a result is roughly 8 feet above and 20 feet away from the
cable modem & router & switch - which were located for ease of running drops
to all rooms in the residence. Performance and coverage is excellent...
/daytripper
Duane Arnold
I don't believe in re-inverting the wheel!
And please the next time try not to post to the Galaxy!
Duane :)
--
The protection of the machine is a process and not a given!
Bruce H
2 cat 5e runs put in to five rooms and all coming together in a cabinet in
the garage. My SMC wireless router plugs into my DSL modem and an 8 port
switch plugs into the Router. The switch ties together up to 8 of my hard
wired room jacks at any given time and the wireless router gives me wireless
support where it wasn't feasible to run the cat 5e.
My wireless router has never locked up that I remember. I usually update to
the latest firmware whenever possible.
Bruce
"Jason" <jaso...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:d5d88e7c.03020...@posting.google.com...
Mark Lloyd
I currently use a Linksys router (wireless AP is seperate) and it has
never locked up. Previously I used a D-Link router (with wireless SP).
It did lock up sometimes.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://go.to/notstupid
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
"religion is a socio-political institution for the
control of people's thoughts, lives, and actions;
based on ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive
brainwashing."
Philip Lewis
>>> wireless network through the house. I'm already pulled two cat 5e
>>> I'm going to have about about 18 drops in the house and also want to
>>> have wireless cover the house and backyard. My question is about
>>> hardware.
>>> The only problem that I have with the dlink router that I have now is
>>> that is locks up alot and I have to reset it by unplugging it. Is this
>>> common to all routers? What causes this? collisions? hacking?
hard to say what's causing your router to lock up... i have a SMC
wireless barricade router and *love* it. I've never had it lock
up... it handles negotiation of the broadband connection to our DSL
(PPoE) Provides NAT (computer sharing) and firewall protection.
It is, imo, an excellent product... although i havn't used other
routers, so i've not really much to compair.
>>> I'm assuming I need a router. Could someone tell me the difference
>>> (briefly) between a router, switch, hub, and bridge?
I'm no network expert, but i can probably give you a outline as i
understand it... someone else will surely say i'm an idiot and
correct me if i'm wrong... ;)
A hub takes signals from one of it's ports... and repeats them to all
of it's other ports....
a switch is a "smart" hub. It receives information on a port.. and if
it knows where the packet will go, it sends it only to that
port... effectively reducing the ammount of network traffic where it
doesn't belong.
a router/bridge are two names for the same thing. if you have two
networks (say your broadband connection and your home network) the
router essentially acts as a switch. if it sees a packet that should
stay on the local network, it doesn't broadcast it to the world. if
there is a packet that doesn't look like it belongs on the local
network, it will send it out... Think of it as a bouncer for a bar.
over 21s get in.. everyone else is sent to Chuncky-Cheese.
Routers can handle more than just 2 networks... IIRC they sometimes
have "weighted" routes that they follow... it might be cheaper/faster
to send the packets via route A in the morning, and route B at
night, and route C on the weekends...
for what it's worth... my wireless router covers my whole house... i
can go 3 lots down as well... ~240'. the connection is slower
there.. but still useable for reading mail, etc.... line of sight
communication would be much better.... if i planned on using my
wireless connection in the backyard... i'd take an AP (access point)
and stick it near a window out the back of the house....
--
be safe.
flip
^___^ Just on the border of your waking mind, There lies... Another time
\^.^/ Where darkness & light - are one. And as you tread the halls of sanity,
==u== You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. ELO - Twilight Prologue
Matt Hayes
> a switch is a "smart" hub. It receives information on a port.. and if
> it knows where the packet will go, it sends it only to that
> port... effectively reducing the ammount of network traffic where it
> doesn't belong.
>
> a router/bridge are two names for the same thing. if you have two
> networks (say your broadband connection and your home network) the
> router essentially acts as a switch.
No, not calling you an idiot :) A bridge is an "extension" to a
network. Joining two "lengths" of a network together. Somewhat like
a bridge on a highway connects two "lengths" of highway.
If you go to http://www.whatis.com and look up Bridge and Router, it
can explain it easier than I can.
Matt
JohnH
>
> I'm renovating my home and I want to install a combo wired and
> wireless network through the house. I'm already pulled two cat 5e
> wires from a wiring closet to each room and I'm now at the stage where
> I'm planning how to tie it all together. BTW the only thing the
> network will really be used for is sharing a cable modem connection to
> the internet and XBOX linkplay games.
You've done a lot to incorporate a network into your home. You're a step
ahead of most people. Congratulations.
> I'm going to have about about 18 drops in the house and also want to
> have wireless cover the house and backyard. My question is about
> hardware.
>
> I'm planing on using a Dlink wireless AP in the wiring closet and a
> DWL 900ap+ in repeater mode to repeat the signal to the back yard.
> The only problem that I have with the dlink router that I have now is
> that is locks up alot and I have to reset it by unplugging it. Is this
> common to all routers? What causes this? collisions? hacking?
I suppose most routers will lock up at some point but should not make a
habit of it. Firmware updates usually remedy this problem. If it locks up a
lot then you should check for updates and then change routers if the problem
persists. I'm not familiar with the DLink wireless router. Does it provide
for 802.11g 2.4GHz transmission at 54Mbs? If not you should consider using a
unit that does support this new standard.
> Does spending a little more money on a hardwired router increase the
> reliability by alot?
>
> I'm assuming I need a router. Could someone tell me the difference
> (briefly) between a router, switch, hub, and bridge?
You will need a router and a few switches considering the number of drops
you have.
Philip Lewis
rebate at fry electronics site (outpost.com i think)
Sorry for the AD.... I have no affiliation with the company... but i
do like the product and wanted to share the info since i mentioned it
in my responce in this thread....
Ken Schumm
> BTW... i saw the SMC barricade (which i use and like) for $50 after
> rebate at fry electronics site (outpost.com i think)
>
> Sorry for the AD.... I have no affiliation with the company... but i
> do like the product and wanted to share the info since i mentioned it
> in my responce in this thread....
I've got an SMC Barricade as well. Other than the fact that it locks
up once a week and needs to be physically reset, it works fine.
Neil Cherry
>BTW... i saw the SMC barricade (which i use and like) for $50 after
>rebate at fry electronics site (outpost.com i think)
>
>Sorry for the AD.... I have no affiliation with the company... but i
>do like the product and wanted to share the info since i mentioned it
>in my responce in this thread....
Flip, I'm pretty sure you don't need AD in the header as you aren't
selling it and you're not directly connected to the sale of it (such
as working for SMC or Fry's). But thanks for being considerate enough
to cover your bases (all your base are belong to us ;-).
--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry nch...@comcast.net
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ncherry/ (Text only)
http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
Michael Segulja
> Philip Lewis <fl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message news:<200302021555....@smtp6.andrew.cmu.edu>...
>
>
>>networks (say your broadband connection and your home network) the
>>router essentially acts as a switch.
>
>
> No, not calling you an idiot :) A bridge is an "extension" to a
> network. Joining two "lengths" of a network together. Somewhat like
> a bridge on a highway connects two "lengths" of highway.
>
> If you go to http://www.whatis.com and look up Bridge and Router, it
> can explain it easier than I can.
>
> Matt
Not calling anybody anything either, but... :)
A true router and a true bridge are actually very different things. The
terms have come to mean the same thing through different marketing and
naming schemes on products for both the corporate and home network
markets, but a router is strictly to connect two or more separate
networks together that would not otherwise be able to talk to each other
due to physical location. They both would be speaking the same protocol
however. For instance, a LAN to a WAN, or a LAN on one subnet to a LAN
on a different subnet. A bridge is a device that connects to
_different_ networks together. For instance, a network that speaks
IPX/SPX to a network that speaks TCP/IP. Or even one network that is
token ring with a different network that is Ethernet. Or even a coax
network bridged with a twisted pair network. Nowadays, TCP/IP is
practically the only protocol anybody runs on a network over twisted
pair Ethernet, so the term bridge has become synonomous with the term
router.
Anyway, that's the way I remember it from the days I administered an
IPX/SPX Novell network running on Arcnet over coax.
Michael
Lewis Gardner
> for 802.11g 2.4GHz transmission at 54Mbs? If not you should consider using a
> unit that does support this new standard.
Trouble in G paradise...
" Now, the WiFi Alliance has been forced to act as rival 50 megabit wireless
systems have been launched on the market - without even the benefit of a
finally agreed IEEE standard to conform to, and with no compatibility testing
between the rivals, either.
As predicted, the result is a monumental cockup.
A scale of the disaster is the giveaway quote by Broadcom's Jeff Abramowitz,
senior director of wireless LAN marketing: "Manufacturers understand what
interoperability means to them, and they are moving in that direction."
This statement says, as honestly as you could ask for from a man speaking
under NDA, that we aren't there yet.
Abramowitz can't say "they don't interwork" even though he may know for sure
which ones cause the problems. He's not allowed to, because the tests where
this bad news was established are secret. WiFi specialist site, Unstrung,
reports: "Fueling industry anxiety is the fact that the results of the first
interoperability trials, sponsored by the University of New Hampshire
Interoperability Lab, won't be made public." Not only will they not be made
public, but the people who attended them have actually been obliged to sign a
non-disclosure agreement saying that they may not discuss them.
There would be no need to make the results secret if they all showed
interworking. "
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/59/29250.html
Amey Samant
theoritically speaking
router : a device that works at the network layer, routes packets over
network
bridge : a device that worls at network layer but connects diff types
of LANs say 802.3 with 802.4 diff network follow diff issues such as
i rem one example frm the book something like 802.3 has priority field
in packet but if this packet is transferred on some other network
using bridge say 802.4 which doesn use priority , the priority field
looses purpose. thus when u want to connect two diff types of network
topologies u require a bridge
switch : a device that works at DLL/Mac subkayer (i dun rem exactly)
repeater : a device that works at physical layer (to amplify signal)
hub : a device which is just like tee at one end you connect to server
or other device & at other you can connect number of client hosts or
links
pick up "computer networks" by andrew tanenbaum (best book for
understanding how networks work)
rergards
Amey
Vincent Fox
>Hello,
>I'm renovating my home and I want to install a combo wired and
>wireless network through the house. I'm already pulled two cat 5e
>wires from a wiring closet to each room and I'm now at the stage where
>I'm planning how to tie it all together. BTW the only thing the
>network will really be used for is sharing a cable modem connection to
>the internet and XBOX linkplay games.
>I'm going to have about about 18 drops in the house and also want to
>have wireless cover the house and backyard. My question is about
>hardware.
>I'm planing on using a Dlink wireless AP in the wiring closet and a
>DWL 900ap+ in repeater mode to repeat the signal to the back yard.
>The only problem that I have with the dlink router that I have now is
>that is locks up alot and I have to reset it by unplugging it. Is this
>common to all routers? What causes this? collisions? hacking?
You are not clear here. Which is locking up the wireless AP or
the router? If you have one of those all-in-one widgets with a
router and wireless AP and maybe a print-server in one unit
all I can say is UGH! At the very least check for firmware
upgrades on the D-Link site. D-Link makes pretty decent hardware
but just like Linksys and all the other cheapish vendors the
initial firmware is usually full of bugs.
My recommendation is ALWAYS separate router and AP functions.
Get a separate D-Link DI-604 that handles JUST the wired network.
Upgrade firmware and get that unit happy. Then get a separate
DWL-900AP+ to act as the access point. Ditto on firmware upgrade.
I have this setup and it works great. Advantage is that the
first AP can be wherever the coverage is best which is usually
not where your wired closet is.
>Does spending a little more money on a hardwired router increase the
>reliability by alot?
>I'm assuming I need a router. Could someone tell me the difference
>(briefly) between a router, switch, hub, and bridge?
router: smart packet handling, usually does NAT etc between two
networks with different IP ranges like WAN<->LAN.
switch: switches traffic typically on same ethernet segment
smart enough only to keep PC1<->PC2 traffic from
colliding with PC3<->PC4 traffic.
hub: no brains at all, sees a 0 or a 1 and repeats that
signal on all other ports.
bridge: somewhere between a switch and a hub, shares traffic
between two networks making them like one.
>Any help is appreciated.
>Thanks
>J
--
Vincent Fox
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!vf5
Internet: v...@prism.gatech.edu
Vincent Fox
*snip*
>persists. I'm not familiar with the DLink wireless router. Does it provide
>for 802.11g 2.4GHz transmission at 54Mbs? If not you should consider using a
>unit that does support this new standard.
And I say, DUMB idea. Why spend money on a standard that isn't yet?
11g is still a moving target. The hardware cost 2 or 3 times what
the 802.11b or 802.11b+ do, and for what? Most people are using
their fancy 11g adapters sucking through the straw that is their
DSL or cable modem anyhow. You can't overtax the WAN with the
11b stuff yet, just doesn't make sense.
I recommend don't get a router that has integrated wireless usually.
Then you can have a separate AP placed where you need. That can be
11b or 11b+ for now, and maybe if you need it at some later date
an 11a or 11g AP when it finalizes.
JohnH
news:b3vo0j$gcq$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> "JohnH" <jo...@nospam.me> writes:
>
> *snip*
>
> >persists. I'm not familiar with the DLink wireless router. Does it
provide
> >for 802.11g 2.4GHz transmission at 54Mbs? If not you should consider
using a
> >unit that does support this new standard.
Vincent wrote:
> And I say, DUMB idea. Why spend money on a standard that isn't yet?
>
> 11g is still a moving target. The hardware cost 2 or 3 times what
> the 802.11b or 802.11b+ do, and for what? Most people are using
> their fancy 11g adapters sucking through the straw that is their
> DSL or cable modem anyhow. You can't overtax the WAN with the
> 11b stuff yet, just doesn't make sense.
>
> <snipped>
> --
> Vincent Fox
Not a first generation buyer eh Vincent? Don't knock it. I enjoy my 11g
equipment and while its true the WAN connection is the throttle point, LAN
access is boosted 5x over 11b. Nothing wrong with that.
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
wrote in message <b3vo0j$gcq$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>:
>"JohnH" <jo...@nospam.me> writes:
>
>*snip*
>
>>persists. I'm not familiar with the DLink wireless router. Does it
>>provide for 802.11g 2.4GHz transmission at 54Mbs? If not you should
>>consider using a unit that does support this new standard.
>
>And I say, DUMB idea. Why spend money on a standard that isn't yet?
>
>11g is still a moving target. The hardware cost 2 or 3 times what
>the 802.11b or 802.11b+ do, and for what? Most people are using
>their fancy 11g adapters sucking through the straw that is their
>DSL or cable modem anyhow. You can't overtax the WAN with the
>11b stuff yet, just doesn't make sense.
Apple has come to a different conclusion, supporting 802.11g explicitly in
products that are shipping and apparently skipping 802.11a completely.
... Marc
MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com
Vincent Fox
*snip*
>Not a first generation buyer eh Vincent? Don't knock it. I enjoy my 11g
>equipment and while its true the WAN connection is the throttle point, LAN
>access is boosted 5x over 11b. Nothing wrong with that.
Yeah in this economy and now working a TEMP job the
personal IT budget is not what it used to be.
However, I found I could pick up a bargain on the
D-Link 900AP+ and with it's 802.11b+ mode and the new
firmware enabling not only PBCC but also "4X" I can get
close to 10 megs/sec real throughput according to iqcheck
measurements. Not bad for AP + card under $100.
Thanks for being out on the bleeding edge for me dude!
Once you guys have paid for it I'll pick it up secondhand.