Distance between 120v cable and ALC control cable - whats the latest advice?
Tim Duckworth
cables in parallel or through the same hole in studs. Whats the latest
advice? I need to run both my power and control cables between the switch
and the basement so they will naturally be close to each other.
Here's a post from March 2000
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=8aji51%241e
9c%241%40ausnews.austin.ibm.com
Also, is there any advice on bringing the power and control cable into the
box? I read here
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=36CE9774.FA
1F4462%40att.net that the control cable should be brought into the top of
the box.
What do inspectors say when they see low voltage and power cables in the
same box? As I'm pre-wiring (ie there will be nothing on the controller end
of the lv cable) should I terminate the lv cable?
Regards, Tim
Robert L. Bass
it's a potential source of electrocution if the insulation wears off while
pulling or if a screw/nail hits the wrong spot.
You can run UTP close and parallel farther than non-twisted stuff without
much trouble but try to avoid lengthy parallel runs. For example, you won't
have trouble from running the two up a stud to a gang box. Just don't run
them across the basement together.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
"Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:HrHW8.8$3U3.8242154@IConNet...
Tim Duckworth
basement directly into the box and bring the low voltage control cable up
and loop it round the outside of the box and into the top.
Other than "ask the inspector!" any thoughts on "What do inspectors say when
they see low voltage and power cables in the same box? As I'm pre-wiring
(ie there will be nothing on the controller end of the lv cable) should I
terminate the lv cable?"
Regards, Tim
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:t1IW8.107758$vq.53...@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Ken Schumm
> How about using a [plastic] junction box with one of those covers that
> convert it into a single gang light switch? Allthough this won't give you
> more depth it will give you extra width to get all the wires in.
I found the depth to be far more important than the width. You still
have to run wires behind the switches, and extra width won't increase
the clearance between the back of the switch and the back of the box.
[...]
Ken Schumm
> basement directly into the box and bring the low voltage control cable up
> and loop it round the outside of the box and into the top.
>
> Other than "ask the inspector!" any thoughts on "What do inspectors say when
> they see low voltage and power cables in the same box? As I'm pre-wiring
> (ie there will be nothing on the controller end of the lv cable) should I
> terminate the lv cable?"
They will probably fail the inspection. The ALC low voltage wires
should be ON TOP of the box, not IN the box. The switches are
designed to make the low voltage connections outside the box, then
tuck the wires into the wall on top of the box.
[...]
Tim Duckworth
requiring space behing the switch for this.
Regards, Tim
"Ken Schumm" <kwsc...@IH8SPAMqsolv.com> wrote in message
news:Voyager.020709144000.3279C@dilbert...
Ryan Erickson
and power cables in the same box?
Seems to me that every inspector could answer that differently.
"Ask the Inspector!" is the only answer that matters.
Now, if you're asking what *my* inspector said: I did call my inspector,
told him I was planning on running dimmers that were controlled via a
low-voltage control wire, which is CAT5. I asked if there were any issues
with it, if he was familiar with it, and if much of that sort of thing was
done around here. He was familiar with it, and had no problem with it. I
think that especially since I had already asked about it, he didn't arrive
at the house and have a surprise. I don't think they like 'surprises'.
I would not terminate the low-voltage cable yet, since the drywallers and
painters still have work to do. If you terminate them, you need to protect
them from getting mud and paint on them. It's easier to just terminate them
when you put in the dimmers. The only advantage I can think of for
terminating them before is that you could test them and re-pull any that
were damaged, but I wouldn't think it's worth it.
Good Luck,
Ryan Erickson
use...@erickson.myip.org
http://erickson.myip.org
"Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MlIW8.10$3U3.8272141@IConNet...
Ryan Erickson
not ON TOP...
It is legal per 1996 NEC, I believe. I don't have the appropriate passage,
but if the wires are only used as control wires, and they terminate into the
switch, they're allowed.
Of course, even if they're allowed, if your style of dimmers connects
outside the box, wire them outside.
Ryan
use...@erickson.myip.org
http://erickson.myip.org
"Ken Schumm" <kwsc...@IH8SPAMqsolv.com> wrote in message
news:Voyager.020709143802.3279B@dilbert...
Larry Nielsen
"Ryan Erickson" <usene...@erickson.myip.org> wrote in message
news:agfoji$1fc$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com...
> BTW, there are some systems that do use the low-voltage wires IN the box,
> not ON TOP...
>
> It is legal per 1996 NEC, I believe. I don't have the appropriate
passage,
> but if the wires are only used as control wires, and they terminate into
the
> switch, they're allowed.
I do know that one issue of the electrical code is that if wires of
differant voltages share a space they BOTH must have the same highest
voltage rating insulation. 120 volt wires are insulated at 600 volts so
your low voltage wires "in the same box" must also be insulated at 600
volts.
Larry
Ken Schumm
boxes, I'd say that the depth is far, far more important than
the width.
Previously, Tim Duckworth wrote in comp.home.automation:
Robert L. Bass
specially designed face plate that brings the low voltage wires through the
drywall -- not into the box itself. Low voltage wires inside the box would
be a major no-no unless the box was partitioned of they were insulated to
the same standard as the Romex feeding the 110VAC.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
"Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:MlIW8.10$3U3.8272141@IConNet...
Ken Schumm
to be in the boxes when we built two years ago in Washington
County, Oregon.
You're right though - the only opinion that matters is that of
the inspector.
I also know that there are special boxes that have a separate
cavity for low voltage controls, to isolate them from the line
voltage. I'm fairly sure those boxes would be legal in most
all circumstances, unless your inspector is a real hard case.
Previously, Ryan Erickson wrote in comp.home.automation:
Tim Duckworth
brings the low voltage wires through the drywall -- not into the box
(plastic or metal) and one to the nearest stud, bring the high voltage cable
up through the botttom of the box, strip and tuck back in. Then bring the
low voltage control wire up and round the box and perhaps clamp it to the
stud leaving some extra wire. Then the sheetrock goes up with the
installers cutting out the box holes. Do I then take a knife and enlarge
the hole at the top of the box by cutting a bit of sheetrock, then pull the
control wires through, connect to the ALC swictch, then push them back into
the wall on top of the box?
If light switch boxes are a standard size I can't see how a "specially
designed face plate" can "bring the low voltage wires through the drywall --
not into the box itself".
Regards, Tim
"Robert L. Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c_KW8.52408$Im2.2...@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Robert L. Bass
Robert L Bass
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
Larry Nielsen
> the width.
Sheesh guys, you are both correct. Total volume is the buzz word. You need
space to stuff the wires and splices.
And it depends on box design and wiring methods.
If using romex and plastic boxes the romex usually enters way at the back so
depth is nicer and the side space is not quite as important so Ken might win
this round..
It's different with metal boxes and metal conduits. The threaded part of
the connector and the lock nut sticking into the box really take up space.
Then the #12 and #14 wires coming through the pipes intrude at that point
and some have to continue on to exit other pipes or meet in splices. Try
that in a narrow box with any pipes coming in the side! The 1900 box with
space all the way around makes Tim correct.
I'd say the box depends on the wire entry method but still agree with both
of you that the more total space the better.
My two cents.
Larry
Tim Duckworth
the control cable. Where should I take this ground connection from (in
order to pass inspection) ? Just run a green 14 gauge wire from the nearest
junction box?
Regards, Tim
"Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:HrHW8.8$3U3.8242154@IConNet...
Malcolm W
I suggest you order one of each type of switch now so you can have them in
hand and see what everyone is talking about. That's what I did.
1. The first thing you will find is that the switch itself takes up a LOT
more space than a regular switch so that's why the concern for larger/deeper
boxes. My electrician had to really cram some HV wires to get everything
in.
2. The LV wires come out of the face of the switch, behind the cover plate
and above the white plastic part that sticks through the cover plate. These
wires get attached to the CAT3 that has been run ABOVE the top of the j-box.
They get crimped to the ALC pigtails and pushed back into the space above
the box.
You need a small gap between the top of the box and the sheetrock to get it
all back in. If the gap is too big, the cover plate won't cover it. Too
small and you can't tuck it in.
Don't stick the CAT3 through the nail hole or you won't be able to push the
wire back in either. Tape the CAT3 to the top of the box and watch that the
sheet rockers don't rotozip your wires. They will have to hand cut the
holes.
Try a fixed font to see this ASCII drawing of the top of the switch. The
top "0" is the screw hole for the box. The wires go over the top in the are
to the left and right, marked by each "V" and the other "0" is for the
cover.
____ V _ V ____
| \___/0\___/ |
| |
| 0 |
| ___________ |
| | | |
Remember, many people here have gone through this process recently (March)
and/or regularly so it's good advice. So good that you will certainly want
to kick yourself in the ass later if you don't take it. =8-0
Tim Duckworth
see for myself just how big it is. If it won't fit in the plastic boxes
installed by my electrician I'll have to change the boxes ASAP. I have just
a few questions before the stuff arrives:
- I can't get CAT3 at my local Home Depot - will CAT5e by okay? I'll
probably get a different color than my network / telephone CAT5e.
- What size gap are you talking between the top of the box and the
sheetrock? 1/2"?
- Re "Don't stick the CAT3 through the nail hole" - what is the nail hole?
Regards, Tim
"Malcolm W" <wari...@sunSPlinkAM.net> wrote in message
news:agi005$dcq$1...@inntp-m1.news.aol.com...
Ken Schumm
> see for myself just how big it is. If it won't fit in the plastic boxes
> installed by my electrician I'll have to change the boxes ASAP. I have just
> a few questions before the stuff arrives:
I'll jump in here since I haven't seen a reply.
>
> - I can't get CAT3 at my local Home Depot - will CAT5e by okay? I'll
> probably get a different color than my network / telephone CAT5e.
Yep, CAT5 is fine.
> - What size gap are you talking between the top of the box and the
> sheetrock? 1/2"?
If you're very careful, maybe 3/16", but the bigger it is the easier
it is to fish the wire out and stuff 'em back in. You can get some
cover plates that are slightly oversize to help cover the hole. You
can also get some cover plates that are very oversize - they cover
the whole but are big and ugly.
> - Re "Don't stick the CAT3 through the nail hole" - what is the nail hole?
I think he means this - most plastic boxes are nailed in place at
an angle, and there is a hole between the nail and the top of the
box.
[...]
Malcolm W
> Thanks for the long explanation. Yesterday I ordered the 500w ALC dimmer
to
> see for myself just how big it is. If it won't fit in the plastic boxes
> installed by my electrician I'll have to change the boxes ASAP.
If they are already in you can make them work. Is the electrician capable
of installing this stuff? How many do you need?
> - I can't get CAT3 at my local Home Depot - will CAT5e by okay?
CAT5e will WORK fine. However, the CAT3 with the OnQ ALC brand on it is
much thinner and way more flexible to work with. You will definitely
appreciate that.
I bought it before I knew about that but I remember something about OnQ
wanting to use that cable for warranty issues.
Worthington has it for $48.50 and it's part number 362840-03.
http://www.worthdist.com/catalog01/p46.pdf
They had a special on it a one time. I don't know what shipping is like for
that. I picked it up myself.
> I'll probably get a different color than my network / telephone CAT5e.
This is light blue. Different colors are a good idea. I use dark blue for
network and white for phone. The phones wire is all CAT5e including the
jacks so they can be interchanged at the patch panel if needed. Jacks are
also white or blue but come back to that later.
> - What size gap are you talking between the top of the box and the
> sheetrock? 1/2"?
Waaay too much. Just enough to fit the CAT3 wire. Take a cover off of a
light switch (preferably at your current home or people will look at you
funny) and you will see how much room you have to work with. If the box is
larger, you will have less room.
> - Re "Don't stick the CAT3 through the nail hole" - what is the nail hole?
The blue plastic boxes have nails on the top and bottom and a hole where the
nail guides are. You have to see one.
Tim Duckworth
voltage and a small amount of high voltage. The high voltage work has meant
that in order to get a home owners electrical permit I've had to release the
electrician. So in short, I'll be fittng the ALC switches (only about 3 of
them) !
I've just placed an overnight order with Worthington for the OnQ ALC cable.
Regards, Tim
"Malcolm W" <wari...@sunSPlinkAM.net> wrote in message
news:agigf2$ec8$1...@inntp-m1.news.aol.com...
Malcolm W
switches that are not getting replaced at this time right?
If so, make sure you run the CAT3 to each and every one. Even if you don't
think you will ever need it, do it anyway and leave some extra. You might
want to mount some control above the switch and there are plenty of extra
wires that could be used.
Also, most people daisy chain the ALC from switch to switch. I ran each
switch back to a dedicated wire room. If you daisy chain, make sure you
have enough extra pairs for your 3-way slaves. You don't even have to think
about it if it's home run.
Here are some pictures from early March. The terminals at the top are the
ALC runs.
http://www.evenlink.com/waringm/hAutoWireroom.html
By the way, where do you live? I only had a total of two inspections of ANY
kind. One electrical when the meter base was installed and another by the
zoning officer to get the certificate of occupancy. Nothing else and the
only permit was the local building permit.
"Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:pBhX8.18$3U3.9646143@IConNet...
Tim Duckworth
to pre-wire this for burgular, fire, audio, HA, and the HA controller panel.
The electrician is done and now I'm starting my work. This room requires 2
ALC switches. I intend to retro-fit ALC in other locations later.
Thanks for the photos - looks like a big job. Did you do your whole house?
I live in Greenwich, CT. The "high voltage" electrician had to pull a
permit to do the general installation. Then I obtained a permit to do low
voltage. During this I realized I need to extend the high voltage (120v
dedicated circuit required for HA controller) so had to get a hv permit
myself from the town. To get this I had to do an open-book NEC test and
sign an afidavit that as the home owner only I would be doing the work. As
you can only have one electrical permit I had to "release" the electrician.
This means I will have to install the devices after sheetrocking rather than
him coming back. A bit annoying but I can cope...
Have we discussed pvc conduit? Last night I installed a couple of plastic
low voltage mud rings and drilled 2" holes through to the basement. I
expected to be able to bend the PVC a bit but it was impossible. I now
think I'll need flexible - have you used this? I've just seen that
smarthome.com are selling brown/orange flexible tubing for this purpose (but
its out-of-stock). Someone also mentioned blue "smurf" but my local Home
Depot only has 1/2" - I want 3/4" and 2".
Regards, Tim
"Malcolm W" <wari...@sunSPlinkAM.net> wrote in message
news:agkdcf$hna$1...@inntp-m1.news.aol.com...
Malcolm W
> I'm having a new room built at the back of the house so I've been planning
> to pre-wire this for burgular, fire, audio, HA, and the HA controller
panel.
> The electrician is done and now I'm starting my work. This room requires
2
> ALC switches. I intend to retro-fit ALC in other locations later.
>
> Thanks for the photos - looks like a big job. Did you do your whole
house?
Every switch and all the other bells and whistles. I don't have any of the
speakers or the audio system yet so that puts a crimp in my IR/remote plans
for a while except for the 16 button X-10 RFs which are OK for now.
Electrian did most of the wiring but I did some too.
> Have we discussed pvc conduit?
I have the entire chimney chase so I haven't done much conduit.
Tim Duckworth
and/or flexible conduit up from my basement to each low voltage outlet and
decide later exactly what wire I need to pull ie cat 5 for tel & net, coax
for video etc. However I am going to prewire the ALC switches, alarm
sensors (sash windows, door, glass break, and motion), fire sensors, and
console back to the recessed Leviton Structured Media Enclosure. I'll buy
the Omni whatever later.
Regards, Tim
"Malcolm W" <wari...@sunSPlinkAM.net> wrote in message
news:agkteg$ii3$1...@inntp-m1.news.aol.com...
> "Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:mWkX8.19$3U3.9831850@IConNet...
[snip]
Malcolm W
It like a big stiff garden hose (the dark blue stuff in the photos)
but the electrician gets a real good deal on it and it takes a lot
less time for them to run. I think it may be difficult to try and get
those 4 wires through a piece of conduit later. I would install as
much as you can before the walls go up and use the conduit for what
you may need later.
Everything is fastened to the middle of the studs as needed, usually
with the plastic insulated staples.
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:38:04 GMT, "Tim Duckworth" <t...@nospam.com>
wrote: