CFLs flicker when Wall Swtich WS467 is OFF
Jim Hewitt
I've been slowlyg trying CFLs in the house to see if they work OK wtih our
X10 installation. We've decided that the quality of light is acceptable for
the energy $ savings.
But, when I put some (N:Vision from Home Depot) 60W CFLs in the kids' room
overehad light, controlled by a WS467, everything was fine until I turned
the lights off. They don't go fully off! We get a very low light flicker,
probably 5-10 times a second. I triple-checked, the wall switch was not
dimming the lights.
Is this a result of the current sense (for local control)? If so, would the
standard mode for disabling current sense stop this?
It is doubtful that the kids would sleep well with this annyong flicker, but
also likely that it would also damage the CFL electronics eventually.
Thank you for any input. Or for pointing me to a more appropriate group.
Jim
John
"Jim Hewitt" <jim.h...@spamless.hp.com> wrote in message
news:fqn0ll$9vd$1...@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
flow to operate. It normally gets this through the cold filament
of an incandescant lamp. Put a small incandescant lamp in
parallel with the CFL and the CFL will stop flickering. I'm
currently using a 15 watt lamp but I plan to try a 4 watt night
light.
Jim Hewitt
night light in their room - they're way beyond that now. :-)
However that will be fine for the porch lights.
Jim
"John" <noad...@noaddress.invalid> wrote in message
news:AfGdnfqiLZAjhlLa...@comcast.com...
Gadgets
Yup, disable the current sensing (local control) and the lights will
stop flickering. Been there done that! :-)
Charles Sullivan
Not quite! The WS467 is only a two-wire device. To disable the current
which causes the CFL flickering would remove power from the WS467
circuitry and prevent it from being turned on remotely. (The WS467 does
not have "local sensing" as the term is generally understood for plug-in
lamp modules.)
The OP needs to replace the WS467 with a wall switch designed for
fluorescent lamps. Note that these all require having a neutral wire in
the switchbox, and generally operate with a relay, so there will be an
audible click when they're turned on or off.
Jim Hewitt
"Charles Sullivan" <cwsu...@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d54572$0$24080$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Yes, another poster (or maybe you earlier) already discussed the two-wire
aspect. No power, no workie.
For some of the switches I can easily try the trick of a low wattage
incandescent bulb in parallel. For the others, the fixture has two bulbs -
for now I'll just try one bulb of each type. Less than half the energy
savings, but better than none.
I can disable the local dimming feature (which I had to mod te enable) and
can train the kids to NOT dim via the remote [or take away the palm remote
and only let them use the stick-a-switch without dimming control]. They can
hear the wall switch start to buzz (better than I can!) when the dimming
happens so I think they'll stay on top of that.
So, unless we get some spurious dimming, and the wall switches stay on at
100% level, I'm thinking this will be OK. If you know another reason why it
wouldn't be OK, please let me know. While I'd rather not buy new switches,
I'd much more rather not have to buy a new house or get new kids.
Thanks again.
Jim
Robert Green
>
> I've been slowlyg trying CFLs in the house to see if they work OK wtih our
> X10 installation. We've decided that the quality of light is acceptable
for
> the energy $ savings.
>
> But, when I put some (N:Vision from Home Depot) 60W CFLs in the kids' room
> overehad light, controlled by a WS467, everything was fine until I turned
> the lights off. They don't go fully off! We get a very low light
flicker,
> probably 5-10 times a second. I triple-checked, the wall switch was not
> dimming the lights.
The N:Visions are the best of the CFL's I've tried so far, but with single
fixture overhead lights governed by a WS467, I get some pretty awful
results. TGD in the X-10 support forum recently suggested a "fix" here that
involves inserting resistors into light fixtures:
http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.0
but a knowledgeable person I asked had profound reservations about such a
"fix" or more exactly the resistor ratings given as examples. It would be
*very* nice to maintain local sense and eliminate the flashing problems, but
it seems as if it's one or the other. I'm in the midst of a complete rewire
of my house, bringing neutrals to places where I really want to use a CFL
bulb but can't because of the havoc it causes X-10. It's a real bitch and
in many cases I am just running a new cable to a new fixture from the
basement up. I want the option for tungsten in the real cold weather and
dual fixtures would allow that. Not sure of the SAF, but I'll find out.
The light switch wires that came with the house go from the basement to the
attic and then fan out and drop down. Not an easy task to add a neutral
wire.
It's too bad they haven't designed a CFL that simulates a tungsten bulb's
electrical properties more closely. I just bought a brand new batch of
bulbs of various wattages from HD. I've found the electronics in CFL's
varies from brand to brand and from batch to batch and I wouldn't be
surprised if someday they produce a bulb that's completely X-10 compatible.
And affordable. (-: So, let me save this message and try out the new bulbs
on my overhead lights.
(much "screwing" around . . .)
OK, I'm back. I tried the brand new N:vision SKU 772-20 Model ES42 42W
V42836 (I hope that last number's not a firmware version number!) in the
hopes that the larger wattage and the more recent vintage would help and it
flickered. I thought that the 13W load of the 60W "equivalent" bulb caused
problems because it was below the 25W threshold X-10 recommends for lamp
loads. There was no difference between the two. I took a camera and made a
swipe image at 1 second and counted 6 images of the bulb, so I believe it's
6 flashes per second. (-:
> We get a very low light flicker, probably 5-10 times a second. I
triple-checked, the wall
> switch was not dimming the lights.
I think the module's electronics are not working and probably couldn't dim,
even if you wanted to dim them. At least mine don't. Unlike your lights,
there's no option to put in a smaller bulb to carry the trickle in my
overheads. But in thinking about it more, running a big CFL at the ceiling,
base up isn't a good idea, even though my lamp shade allows good air
cooling. Virtually every very premature failure I've had (20+ and counting)
with CFL bulbs has been in a base-up configuration. I need to find some
torchiere lamps specifically designed for large CFL's so the bulb head
doesn't sit above the lamp rim. Then I can use RF switches and perhaps even
preserve local control.
Anyone having this problem with N:Vision CFL's should report it to their
tech support hotline at 1-800-378-6998. They can't find a solution for the
problem if they don't know it exists or how many people it affects. My
three biggest gripes are:
1) The bulbs don't shut off completely and flicker about once a second,
sometimes for hours. I know from the new HE shoplight that I bought that
this causes premature aging. Only one bulb of the 2 strip 48" fixture
flashed, and that's the one that six months later has large dark spots at
the end of the bulb.
2) The lamps "relight" themselves, which I believe is an extension of number
one, but in this case, the trickle current doesn't just cause a flash, it
makes the module think the light switch has been "jiggled."
3) The problem you're having of the bulb flashing wildly in a fixture that
doesn't have a direct connection to a neutral wire.
I'd like dimming to be seamless, too, but I can live without it if I can get
some relief on one through three!
It may be that with some circuit redesign they can eliminate or ameliorate
some of the problems. What I find most troublesome are lamps that test fine
when I first got them but as they age, begin emitting noise strong enough to
step on the X-10 signal.
--
Bobby G.
Jim Hewitt
news:BZ-dnc3H36JzD0fa...@rcn.net...
I'll think about calling the hotline - unless it means an endless navigation
and then wait through phone menus. But you're right - they can't address an
issue if they don't know about it.
I am not currently experiencing any no flicker or re-lighting - except as I
already desribed with the ws467. As for the fix, it is in a way similar to
the other patch of putting a small wattage bulb in parallel. But somehow I
also have a funny feeling about the resistor. Like I said, my current plan
is to use one of each type bulb since the fixture holds two bulbs.
Not dimming is not an issue. I rarely use diming for mood or ambience, but
rather for energy savings. With CFLs, we're already there*! *We hope...
I'm most concerned about the premature failure when installed base-up. The
biggest (energy) savings I hope to realize is using the flood CFLs in our
kitchen recessed lighting - thse are ALL base up. Normally 300 watts
incandescent for a good half of the day. I calculate that it will only take
about 5-6 months to pay for the CFL bulbs with the energy savings. If they
fail prematurely because they are base-up, then what savings do I have???
Also, my overhead lights are in an enclosed fixture. Will I also see
premature failure in htis installation? It is hard for me to detemine if
there will really be any savings as I don't know how long these lights are
on each day - certinaly no more than an hour or two.
As for premature failures - do you have much luck in getting reimbursed by
either HD or N:Vision when they fail early? The package LOUDLY claims that
they will last 7 years... If I don't get at least a year, then I don't
think it's worth the effort/risk (mercury disposal).
And the increased noise with age is also troubling. I thought life was good
when I got several CFLs in and X-10 still works OK (for other lights). But
if my X-10 is going to get swamped over time, them I have lost. Do you also
see this with the N:Vision CFLSs?
Thank you.
Jim
Robert Green
<stuff snipped>
> I'll think about calling the hotline - unless it means an endless
navigation
> and then wait through phone menus. But you're right - they can't address
an
> issue if they don't know about it.
Exactly. I'll see if I can find you shortcut through the menus - there's
actually a website that maintains a database of 800 numbers and what keys
you can press to hasten your connecting to an actual human operator. In any
even, I think it's important that bulb makers get good feedback from users.
CFLs have improved dramatically in the last 5 years or so. My first big
batch of GE's were outrageous signal suckers. Now, the problem is
"relighting" and noise and not so much signal sucking.
> I am not currently experiencing any no flicker or re-lighting - except as
I
> already desribed with the ws467. As for the fix, it is in a way similar
to
> the other patch of putting a small wattage bulb in parallel. But somehow
I
> also have a funny feeling about the resistor. Like I said, my current
plan
> is to use one of each type bulb since the fixture holds two bulbs.
That's an OK solution. I adopted the same with a string of basement lights.
The one right over the stairwell is tungsten because I don't want to miss a
step because a bulb didn't warm up fast enough. Our basement gets pretty
cold in winter, especially when we "zone it off." Slow warm is a real
problem there as well as in outbuildings and attached, unheated garages.
> Not dimming is not an issue. I rarely use diming for mood or ambience,
but
> rather for energy savings. With CFLs, we're already there*! *We
hope...
That's one of those devilish tradeoffs. CFLs don't dim well and people who
ran their tungsten lights dimmed are probably not happy about it. I don't
dim lights much, but I like having the ability to do it. When there's
snowcover, I dim the outside lights nearly 50% and the highly reflective
snow picks up the slack. (-: The outside lights are all "neutral free" and
are incompatible with CFLs. Not only will they not dim, they flicker like
strobelights. )-:
> I'm most concerned about the premature failure when installed base-up.
The
> biggest (energy) savings I hope to realize is using the flood CFLs in our
> kitchen recessed lighting - thse are ALL base up. Normally 300 watts
> incandescent for a good half of the day. I calculate that it will only
take
> about 5-6 months to pay for the CFL bulbs with the energy savings. If
they
> fail prematurely because they are base-up, then what savings do I have???
Clearly, premature failure is going to eat into your saving, particularly if
you can't get reasonable warranty replacements. My suggestion is to mark
all the bulbs going into the can fixtures with a Sharpie so you can tell how
long they last. My large Lights of America failed very quickly in a base up
configuration. It's obvious because there's no discoloration of the plastic
or dark spots at the end of the spiral tubes, and that occurs with most
bulbs after just a few hundred hours of 'on' time.
Since I am temperature obsessed, I would probably stick the wired probe from
one of my remote thermometer inside the can to monitor actual operating
temperatures. There may be ways to improve the air circulation around the
fixtures. It may also be that you can replace the fixtures with ones that
are CFL friendly: larger, roomier and with better ventilation. I have
noticed that most of my new light fixtures have much more room around the
lamp sockets to accommodate the much-larger-than-tungsten CFL lamp bases.
The failures I had were in older style reflector lamps that accommodated
large CFL bulbs, but didn't provide a whole lot of space around the
electronics "bay" of the CFL bulb.
> Also, my overhead lights are in an enclosed fixture. Will I also see
> premature failure in htis installation? It is hard for me to detemine if
> there will really be any savings as I don't know how long these lights are
> on each day - certinaly no more than an hour or two.
The best advice I can give you is to do what I do. Mark the bulbs with
incept dates and keep a spreadsheet or database of their location,
approximate use, etc. Among the improvements I've seen in CFL's is an
increased resistance to temperature-related problems. It could be with the
right bulbs you'll experience the long life touted on the packages.
> As for premature failures - do you have much luck in getting reimbursed by
> either HD or N:Vision when they fail early? The package LOUDLY claims
that
> they will last 7 years... If I don't get at least a year, then I don't
> think it's worth the effort/risk (mercury disposal).
I have kept all my packaging and receipts, but have not sent or returned any
bulbs in a long time since I wanted to keep the bulbs for failure analysis
and eventual recycling. Now that I have cut enough apart to satisfy my
curiosity, I may indeed do a big test mailing and send back all the failed
bulbs to their makers so I can report back who's naughty and who's nice.
The problem, for me at least, is that it makes little economic sense to
return single bulbs, one-at-a-time to the vendor or manufacturer. But now I
have two whole boxes of dead bulbs I'd like to turn in, as long as I get
enough back to cover the postage and time spent returning them.
> And the increased noise with age is also troubling. I thought life was
good
> when I got several CFLs in and X-10 still works OK (for other lights).
But
> if my X-10 is going to get swamped over time, them I have lost. Do you
also
> see this with the N:Vision CFLSs?
My main gripes with N:Vision consist mostly of the flashing of the lights
after they've been turned out by X-10. We use a lot of floor lamps so
killing local sense isn't what I want to do. The problem with lights that
"after flash" is they burn out prematurely and dim considerably before
reaching end-of-life. In certain areas, my wife refuses to use them because
of the ever increasing warm up times required and their impact on safety.
The N:Vision bulbs represent a substantial leap in usability and
reliability, particularly in an X-10 environment and I am thankful that a
fellow CHA'er pointed them out to me. But they're still a long way from
being the functional equivalent of an incandescent bulb. I suspect because
of the basic design, they'll never reach parity with tungsten bulbs in areas
like watts per cubic inch of lightbulb, steady light output throughout the
entire life cycle, resistance to high temperatures and ecological safety.
They'll probably eliminate the need for having a neutral at each switch box
on the same day I complete my house rewiring to provide neutrals to each
switch. )-:
--
Bobby G.
Jim Hewitt
>
> Clearly, premature failure is going to eat into your saving, particularly
> if
> you can't get reasonable warranty replacements. My suggestion is to mark
> all the bulbs going into the can fixtures with a Sharpie so you can tell
> how
> long they last.
> I have
> noticed that most of my new light fixtures have much more room around the
> lamp sockets to accommodate the much-larger-than-tungsten CFL lamp bases.
> The failures I had were in older style reflector lamps that accommodated
> large CFL bulbs, but didn't provide a whole lot of space around the
> electronics "bay" of the CFL bulb.
I did mark them all! We'll just have to hpe for reasonable warranty
replacements (do they ALL require you to send in the bad bulb? That lmost
defeats the entire purpose since I could almost buy a new one for the same
price. Oh, good marketing ploy!)
And my recessed lighting cans are just that - complete, empty cans with a
socket in the middle at the top. So they will have lots of room around the
electronics part of the bulb. I only now realized this when talking to a
friend who told me that he couldn't get his CFL flood lights to fit into his
precisely because there is no such room. So maybe I'll be OK here.
> I have kept all my packaging and receipts, but have not sent or returned
> any
> bulbs in a long time since I wanted to keep the bulbs for failure analysis
> and eventual recycling.
Yeah, I keep stuff like that, too. Too much the engineer -"now why did that
fail the way it did???"
> > But if my X-10 is going to get swamped over time, them I have lost. Do
> > you
> > also see this with the N:Vision CFLSs?
> My main gripes with N:Vision consist mostly of the flashing of the lights
> after they've been turned out by X-10.
> ...
> The N:Vision bulbs represent a substantial leap in usability and
> reliability, particularly in an X-10 environment and I am thankful that a
> fellow CHA'er pointed them out to me. But they're still a long way from
> being the functional equivalent of an incandescent bulb. I suspect
> because
> of the basic design, they'll never reach parity with tungsten bulbs in
> areas
> like watts per cubic inch of lightbulb, steady light output throughout the
> entire life cycle, resistance to high temperatures and ecological safety.
Yeah, the more I study this, the more I agree with you. It will likely not
be possible to make a fully plug-compatible replaclement CFL for a tungsten.
We just gotta figure out what featuers are imptorant and find the ones that
meet those requirements.
I'll try to call N:Vision and give them the feedback.
> They'll probably eliminate the need for having a neutral at each switch
> box
> on the same day I complete my house rewiring to provide neutrals to each
> switch. )-:
Oh, isn't that the truth!
Jim
Robert Green
If my experience with cooling ever-hotter generations of CPU generalizes to
CFL cooing, there has to be a pretty good and unimpeded airflow to keep the
temperatures down. A very big fixture could still overheat if there's no
exit at the top for the hot air. Lots of recessed lighting elements were
designed to tolerate high heat rather than dissipate it. That's not what
CFL's need.
I'd do a test run. If, after six months, if I had premature failures or
very slow starting or serious darkening I would measure the temperature at
the top of the cans to see if I could bring it down a bit. It's important
to compare a new bulb to the existing ones at this point because the
darkening is hard to notice without a new bulb to make the comparison. If I
found problems, in the worst case scenario I'd put a 12VDC cooling fan at
the point with the highest temperature and see if I could vent the output to
a cooler area. However, you should be able to generate enough airflow by
convection that you won't need a fan.
> > I have kept all my packaging and receipts, but have not sent or returned
> > any
> > bulbs in a long time since I wanted to keep the bulbs for failure
analysis
> > and eventual recycling.
>
> Yeah, I keep stuff like that, too. Too much the engineer -"now why did
that
> fail the way it did???"
After my first Lights of America (made in China!) CFL bulbs failed I
realized that the longevity was not going to match the package claims, so I
began keeping records, receipts, saved bulbs and an ever-lengthening list of
"not quite plug compatible" discrepancies, the worst of which is "won't
work without a neutral at the switch with X-10."
It's a reminder that this great country was built on a spirit of compromise.
Every day I've got to compromise something, somewhere! It's time to
compromise and buy another batch of plug-in X-10 filters.
> I'll try to call N:Vision and give them the feedback.
Good idea. X-10 users are probably not big on their list but I'll bet with
a little wheel squeaking we can move up.
> > They'll probably eliminate the need for having a neutral at each switch
> > box on the same day I complete my house rewiring to provide neutrals to
each
> > switch. )-:
> Oh, isn't that the truth!
Well, the project's going slowly enough to give them time to figure it out.
There's no end of fun running romex through old wood, brick, plaster and
lathe.
--
Bobby G.
John J. Bengii
dimmer until the dimmer burnt out after about 3 weeks.
Another note: CFLs do not dim. Some are rated to be used on dimmers (safe)
but they cannot dim. I have tried a few brands now.
"Jim Hewitt" <jim.h...@spamless.hp.com> wrote in message
news:fr3omo$8oq$1...@usenet01.boi.hp.com...
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <Ep6dnU5xVoAnhHza...@golden.net>:
>Another note: CFLs do not dim. Some are rated to be used on dimmers (safe)
>but they cannot dim. I have tried a few brands now.
The assertion that "CFLs do not dim" is at best misleading.
There are in fact *many* CFLs that are _designed_ to be dimmed just as there
are CFLs that are _not_ so designed.
A google of "dimmable CFL" returns 167,000 hits.
The topic of dimmable CFL's has been discussed many times in this newsgroup.
I have four or five different types of dimmable CFLs including, as previously
discussed in c.h.a, outdoor-rated, candelabra-base, warm, dimmable n:Vision
CFLs from Home Depot -- the largest home improvement store chain in the US.
These CFLs and others dim jist fine in my experience and for my purposes.
HTH ... Marc
Visit my ongoing Home Automation and Electronics Internet Porch Sale at
www.ECOntrol.org/porch_sale.htm
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
Jim Hewitt
> One CFL in parallel with 160 watts of incandescents worked fine with my
> X10 dimmer until the dimmer burnt out after about 3 weeks.
Hmm. I checked X10 site (just for giggles) and here is what they say about
that:
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Incandescent_Lights_Only
"Also, this [fluorescent light] ballast is an inductive load. Controlling
such a load could permanently damage the Wall Switch Module."
I guess you are right - that triac circuit just isn't cut out for that type
of load.
That means my pay-off time just got extended since I'll have to replace at
least 4 WS467 [or just go back to manual swtich]... and I doubt I have a
neutral line handy, so add an electrician. Yep, I think the CFLs will save
me money in about 20 years. Sigh.
Jim
PS Comment about dimming CFLs deleted as I don't want to dim them.
John J. Bengii
do start amazingly fast and without any flicker though. Oh yeah, one works
in -30 C in my garage just fine.
"Marc_F_Hult" <MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:afl2u3dhe4v7s6pkb...@4ax.com...
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <SIWdnTw5abAjV3za...@golden.net>:
>I have a Sylvania and a GE dimmable CFL and neither one can be dimmed. They
>do start amazingly fast and without any flicker though. Oh yeah, one works
>in -30 C in my garage just fine.
Your assertion that dimmable "CFLs do not dim" is patently false.
What model number of "GE dimmable CFL" do you have ? Is it a FLE26HT3 or
FLE15HT3 (both "dimmable to 20% of maximum light output")
What model Sylvania? Is it a DuluxŽ EL 15 watt BR30 (dimmable to 10% of full
light output") ?
If the CFLs you have are described and sold as dimmable CFLs by those
manufacturers, then either your dimmer, or the particular CFLs you have, or
both are defective.
... Marc
Visit my ongoing Home Automation and Electronics Internet Porch Sale at
www.ECOntrol.org/porch_sale.htm
Marc_F_Hult
ECOntrol.org
John J. Bengii
"Marc_F_Hult" <MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:asn4u3p8sj5oceokt...@4ax.com...
John J. Bengii
1) Dimmable CFLs have only started to be produced in 2007 ...maine are older
than that.
2) Dimmable CFL bulbs have a very limited range of dimming
3) It takes a special dimmer to make them work. Most reports tell us that
they do not dim with many dimmers.
http://www.edf.org/page.cfm?tagID=633&fixture=0&shape=0&feature1=1
"John J. Bengii" <nob...@yahoo.calm.dwn> wrote in message
news:tJmdnVngGsfy4H_a...@golden.net...
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <tJmdnVngGsfy4H_a...@golden.net>:
>Do you have any idea how a CFL and a dimmer works?
Do you have any idea how obviously unrelated the question of what my
expertise may be is to your unhelpful, un-informed, clownish assertion that
'dimmable CFLs don't dim' ?
(FWIW, I have designed, built, tested and used AC lighting dimmers for use in
my home using analog (ramp + comparator) and microcontroller phase-control
techniques (AVR and 8051-based) using discrete SCR and modular (SSR;
solid-state relay) output stages with analog (0-10vdc), direct mechanical,
and digital (DMX512 / DMX-512) controls.
And I have quantitatively measured, under controlled circumstances, the
actual dimming of incident light from actual 'dimmable' CFLs using those
dimmers.
Among other related experiences.)
Marc_F_Hult
trying to google up some more nonsense to dig himself out of the un-informed
posts he has made, let's be reminded that he has disrupted many newsgroups
with similar nonsense and that he is also known by these and other
aliases:
From: "Gymmy Bob" <nospa...@bite.me>
From: "Gymmy Bob" <NoT...@spam.com>
From: "Gym Bob" <NoT...@notspam.com>
From: "Gymn Bob" <nothanx_AT_spam.me>
From: "Gìmmìe Bob" <noway_AT_spam.me>
From: Gym Blob <mye...@myisp.com>
From: "John Bengi" <JBengi@yahoo,com>
From: "Pizza Gurl" <gbu...@hotmail.com>
From: "Pizza Girl" <ab...@hotmail.com>
From: "Pizzar Girl" <Opera7.20/Win32 M2 build 3144>
From: "Piezzo Guru" <gab...@hotnmail.com>
From: "Piezo Guru" <gbu...@honmail.com>
From: "t@z" <t@z@go.fuk.yurself>
From: Nag...@yahoo.com (Nagliar)
From: "Shy...@webtv.net" <Taz(spam)@webtv.net>
From: "John P. Bengi" <JBengi(spam)@(spam)yahoo,com>
From: "Shylork" <T...@spam.I.am>
From: "Shy...@webtv.net" <Taz(spam)@webtv.net>
\
Here Bengii's pathology is discussed in another forum about CFL's:
http://www.homediscussion.com/showthread.php?t=155173&page=2
>> Same old pattern. Once each name gets in enough kill filters he
>> changes it. In the energy groups alone he's already gone through
>> several variations of both Gymmy Bob and John P Bengi. He uses so many
>> names that he's frequently confused, and sometimes you'll see him
>> using two different names in the same thread. Even when he changes
>> names completely though he's pretty easy to spot. He can't go more
>> than a week or so without using profanity, accusing someone of being a
>> troll, rambling incoherently, or complaining about bottom posters.
This group has a warning about Bengi in its FAQ:
http://www.usenet-replayer.com/faq/alt.binaries.crafts.pictures.html
He typically posts from golden.net in Canada through giganews.com using
Outlook Express.
HTH ... Marc
Marc_F_Hult
www.ECOntrol.org
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:01:54 -0400, Marc_F_Hult
<MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
<8t45u313jmdg8553c...@4ax.com>:
Marc_F_Hult
wrote in message <rO2dnbai9d3uCH_a...@golden.net>:
>From some research I have discovered that
>1) Dimmable CFLs have only started to be produced in 2007
Utter nonsense. Whoever " "John J. Bengii" actually is was duped by his
naive googling and the self-promoting PR from yet another entrant into the
crowded dimmable CFL arena.
Like many other folks, I've had -- and dimmed! -- 'dimmable' CFLs for years.
Visit
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=cfls.advanced_cfl_search_submit
to 'research' just the 63 different ENERGY STAR qualified dimmable CFLS that
are available. Many have been available for years or supercede previous
versions.
Using the search tools at the site, one can learn that there were at least
three different manufacturers of ENERGY STAR qualified dimmable CFLs by 2002.
>...maine are older than that.
Whoever posts as " "John J. Bengii" has demonstrated that s/he doesn't know
a dimmable CFL from a dim bulb.
>2) Dimmable CFL bulbs have a very limited range of dimming
Many are dimmable in a 10:1 ratio of Full:Dimmed actual light output. How is
that "very limited"? It is equivalent to unscrewing 9 out of 10 light bulbs
in a multi-lamp candelabra.
>3) It takes a special dimmer to make them work. Most reports tell us that
>they do not dim with many dimmers.
Wrong. It does not "take[s] a special dimmer to make them work". Apparently
whoever posts as " "John J. Bengii" thinks that there is a single technology
that just arrived in 2007!
But one touted claim of that technology is that it works with the
conventional manual and electronically controlled, TRIAC-based, phase-control
AC dimming technology that has been prevalent for the past 30 years. As have
many other dimmable CFLs for years.
Marc_F_Hult
<nob...@yahoo.calm.dwn> wrote in message
<Ep6dnU5xVoAnhHza...@golden.net>:
>Another note: CFLs do not dim. Some are rated to be used on dimmers (safe)
>but they cannot dim. I have tried a few brands now.
On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 22:24:12 -0400, "John J. Bengii"
<nob...@yahoo.calm.dwn> wrote in message
<SIWdnTw5abAjV3za...@golden.net>:
>I have a Sylvania and a GE dimmable CFL and neither one can be dimmed.
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:49:09 -0400, "John J. Bengii"
<nob...@yahoo.calm.dwn> wrote in message
<rO2dnbai9d3uCH_a...@golden.net>:
>From some research I have discovered that
>1) Dimmable CFLs have only started to be produced in 2007 .
Whoever it is that posts as "John J. Bengii" is both a fountain of
misinformation and apparently unwilling or unable to competently search the
very newsgroup he is polluting with his nonsense.
The topic of how to dim a dimmable Philips compact fluorescent lamp (CFL)
with an X-10 WS467 (see thread Subject) was addressed as early as February
1999 -- nine (9) years ago ! -- in comp.home.automation (c.h.a).
See:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/browse_thread/thread/
25783e925ffd8ce4/602ea48d1584867f?lnk=gst&q=dimmable+cfl#602ea48d1584867f
JVHRoberts wrote on February 3 1999 in comp.home.automation:
"OK, folks, I did it!! I added a white neutral wire to the
WS467, and it turns on, off dims, and everything, with
the Philips dimmable compact fluorescent."
John J. Bengii
At least we have established who you are.
"Marc_F_Hult" <MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:r075u35n89p6s2bi9...@4ax.com...
Robert Green
I wish things were easier for X-10 users regarding CFL's. What really sucks
is that pulling a neutral to a switch costs very little when building a
house, but lots, lots more when it's a retrofit. There are several rooms
that aren't going to get neutrals pulled because it would just be too
disruptive for very little payoff. We use mostly table lamps indoors. But
outside, we've never had enough fixtures, so we're installing new ones, and
they'll all have neutrals at the wall switches.
As a test, (which began as an accident!) I've been running an N:Vision CFL
from an X-10 lamp module for several months now with no adverse affects
other than what I consider slower than normal starting. It takes almost a
full minute to warm up now, but I can live with than. A lamp module is
quite different, though, than a wall switch because it has access to a
neutral wire and doesn't have to power itself through the load. When it
fails (it sees normal kitchen use) I will do post mortem.
FTR, it's a CFL floodlight N:Vision EDXR40-23 in a swing arm lamp that also
has a small circular fluorescent bulb that's installed, but never used (one
of those "hold your finger on the button until it starts" designs that's
very hard to press by accident) running off an LM465 lamp module.
> PS Comment about dimming CFLs deleted as I don't want to dim them.
I don't dim much either, but it would be nice to be able to. My experience
is that the dimmable CFLs do dim, but the dimming curve is quite unlike an
equivalent tungsten bulb. And they generally cost more than the undimmable
bulbs.
--
Bobby G.
John J. Bengii
"Marc_F_Hult" <MFH...@nothydrologistnot.com> wrote in message
news:lcc5u3logpg451mdu...@4ax.com...
Marc_F_Hult
<ROBERT_G...@YAH00.COM> wrote in message
<iK6dnSxWmJjpKH_a...@rcn.net>:
>I don't dim much either, but it would be nice to be able to. My
>experience is that the dimmable CFLs do dim, but the dimming curve is
>quite unlike an equivalent tungsten bulb.
My experience also. There are several effects that make the dimming of a
CFL a different experience from dimming a typical incandescent lamp.
In my mind, there are at least three different 'regimes' in the dimming
effect of an incandescent lamp:
1) A range near maximum output in which the output diminishes,
but the change in color temperature is minimal
2) A greatly dimmed range in which the increased warmth (decrease
in color temperature) is part-and-parcel of the 'dimming'
effect
3) a range near extinction in which the apparent illumination
of distant objects may be negligible depending in large part
on the status of our eyes' dark adaptation, but the lamp
filament produce a candle-like effect and provides a local
"point of light" which may be all that is needed or desired for
some purposes.
(I suspect that there are technical terms for these phenomena of which I
am ignorant (for now ;-)
By and large, dimming of CFLs don't have these 'regimes' so the actual
decrease in light output _seems_ less. Quantitative comparisons with a
light meter are illuminating (pun intended).
These effects are one of the reasons why LED lighting is becoming more
exciting with each incremental technological advance. The use of Red Green
Blue (RGB) arrays, sometimes controlled as in the entertainment lighting
arena by DMX512 (DMX-512 ; DMX-512a) make it possible to control color
temperature and illumination level _independently_.
In our kitchen we have both ceiling cans (which can be either/and
incandescent and CFLs, and dimmed, 12VDC MR26 lamps which can be either
LED Halogen incandescent. I 'spect that in the not too distant future I'll
be experimenting with RGB LEDs in that location.
Maybe with something like akin to this remote-controlled 5watt RGB Full
Color Mr26 LED Spotlight
http://eliteenterprises.trustpass.alibaba.com/product/100445376/5w_
RGB_Full_Color_Mr26_LED_Spotlight.html
Jim Thompson
Years ago (in my disco days ;-) I dimmed neon by cycle skipping (on
the line side of the transformer.
I wonder if that would work with CFL's?
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
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