speaker wire run along electric wire
Tan
Had a question about running speaker wire next to electric wiring. I have
a basement in which the rear speaker wires were run along the same holes in
the stud that the electrical wire uses, i.e. no conduit was used and the
electric and speaker wires touch. Will this cause noise problems in the
rear speakers for me if I go ahead setup the home theater system? The wire
that was run is 14 guage and I was hoping to avoid ripping up the wall and
running new wire. I've heard conflicting stories that rear speakers use low
power so it'll not affect the sound. However, I would tend to think that
this setup would be susceptible to noise emanating from the 60hz. Has
anyone expereinced problems with this type of run, or should it be ok?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
TN
joe m
The majority of my home audio dist system and home theater is running down
existing holes to the basement that share electircal, heating pipes, video
cable, CAT5, coax, ect. I am sure there must be some spec that says signals
will deteriorate in such a config, but to be honest and in my experience, I
have not seen nor heard anything significant enough to say "this is a
problem". The only thing I do try to avoid is networked CAT5 and electrical
cables running next to each other.
Just my .02. Like I said, I am sure some will swear this is a no-no and
there may be some technical white paper type issues, but it saves ripping up
your walls... and no issues here.... or maybe I am just lucky or STUPID ! :)
j
"Tan" <tan2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:91FECAF2Ctan...@24.93.67.43...
Robert L Bass
any induction that you will not be able to hear anything but the music
(assuming you don't have some other problem that may induct noise ahead of
the final amp stage). I've run speaker wire through dimming closets with
over 100,000 Watts of theatrical lights. No problem. I've also run
unbalanced, line level audio through the same location (we had no choice)
with nary a hum nor a buzz. I used good cable, made sure all my audio /
video gear was on one leg of the building's transformer and made good
soldered connections to my snake boxes.
2.) It is, however, a code violation and a potential fire hazard.
I would not do it if I were you. I'd hate to have to rebuild. It's a lot
more trouble than pulling new speaker wires. BTW, there are alternatives to
ripping down the ceiling. You could use wire "tape" -- flat, wide copper
wire that can be painted over -- to bring sound to the rear speakers.
Another possibility is a "carpet shot" where you run the wire along the edge
of the wall-to-wall carpet between the tack strip and the wall. There are
no nails there and the tack strip should keep furniture legs from pinching
your cables. 14-Gauge is more than adequate for the job.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
"Tan" <tan2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:91FECAF2Ctan...@24.93.67.43...
Scott Sabin
therefore perfectly acceptable to the National Electric Code.
As far as fire hazard goes, I really don't see speaker wiring posing the
same threat that household AC wiring does. And there isn't any more of a
threat inside a wall than running alongside/under carpeting or furniture.
Actually, once properly installed, inside the wall is a pretty safe place
(if you make sure you keep the necessary 1.25" distance from the wall
surface).
As far as the rear speakers being of limited frequency band than the fronts
and centers, well that depends on what type of receiver you have. If you
will be listening to SACD, then all 5 main channels have essentially a full
frequency range, and yes, this wiring configuration could (it does, but can
you hear it) affect your signal quality to your rear speakers. If you don't
have DVD-A, DTS, DD, or Dolby Pro Logic II, then yes, your rears will have a
more limited frequency range.
If you have never listened to this setup yet, you may not notice any
degradation. However, you would be better off re-routing if that isn't too
much work. Can you run wires in your ceiling joists or on top of a drop
ceiling?
Robert L Bass <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:GEnz8.246193$%l3.20...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Tan
should be ok with this type of setup but it could be a fire hazard.
Incidentally, I tried to find this specific topic (i.e. proximity of low
voltage wire and high voltage wire) in the NEC but couldn't. The speaker
wires currently do run through the basement ceiling joists but the drywall
is already up (i.e. no drop down). Unfortunately, the local inspector never
brought this up as a potential issue. Oh well, wonder what the $200 for an
electrical permit really bought me. :-) Hopefully, I want notice the sound
difference. Thanks.
TN
ssa...@peoplepc.com (Scott Sabin) wrote in
<ucs725p...@corp.supernews.com>:
Robert L Bass
It isn't a matter of using speaker wire rated for in-wall use. That was
assumed (perhaps it should have been noted). The problem is running the two
in the same holes with the 110/220VAC stuff. That's a no-no. Don't do it.
Whether under carpet or in the wall, I always use wire rated for in-wall
use. In the former case, it's only acceptable (to me) if the wire can be
adequately protected from physical abuse.
I didn't say anything about "limited frequency" because that has nothing to
do with induction. It's a question of whether induction from nearby 110VAC
cables into speaker wires will be audible. The answer to that question is
"no."
You can listen to music using any configuration you like, including DVD-A,
DTS, DD, or Dolby Pro Logic II, and you will still be unable to hear
induction of AC into speaker cables. It's not a function of the type of
surround sound you use. It's a limitation of human hearing. Your dog may
be able to hear a difference but he's not likely to say anything about it.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
Scott Sabin wrote:
>
> There are indeed some wires which are UL listed for in-wall use,
> and therefore perfectly acceptable to the National Electric Code.
That's not the issue. They shouldn't go in the same holes as 110/220VAC
cables.
> As far as fire hazard goes, I really don't see speaker wiring posing
> the same threat that household AC wiring does.
It's not risk from the speaker (amp) power that's at primary issue, though
that can in some instances be a problem.
> And there isn't any more of a threat inside a wall than running
> alongside/under carpeting or furniture.
Inside the wall is one thing. Against the 110/220VAC cables is another.
> Actually, once properly installed, inside the wall is a pretty safe place
> (if you make sure you keep the necessary 1.25" distance from the wall
> surface).
On this we agree.
> As far as the rear speakers being of limited frequency band than the
fronts
> and centers, well that depends on what type of receiver you have.
That's not relavent to the question of cable placement.
> If you will be listening to SACD, then all 5 main channels have
> essentially a full frequency range, and yes, this wiring configuration
> could (it does, but can you hear it) affect your signal quality to your
> rear speakers.
If humans can't hear it, it's not affecting squat.
> If you don't have DVD-A, DTS, DD, or Dolby Pro Logic II, then yes,
> your rears will have a more limited frequency range.
You won't pick up audible hum through speaker wires, regardless what kind of
processing goes on ahead of the amp.
> If you have never listened to this setup yet, you may not notice any
> degradation...
Whether you watch nothing but old programs recorded on Sony Betamax or the
latest video releases on a top of the line surround system, you won't be
able to hear inducted hum from 110 through speaker wires because it's not
being amplified. If you could hear unamplified hum from the electrical
cables in your home, your life would be just... well, humming.
> Robert L Bass wrote:
>
>> 1.) It won't cause hum. The speaker level signal is so much
>> greater than any induction that you will not be able to hear
>> anything but the music (assuming you don't have some other
>> problem that may induct noise ahead of the final amp stage).
>> I've run speaker wire through dimming closets with over
>> 100,000 Watts of theatrical lights. No problem. I've also
>> run unbalanced, line level audio through the same location
>> (we had no choice) with nary a hum nor a buzz. I used good
>> cable, made sure all my audio / video gear was on one leg
>> of the building's transformer and made good soldered
>> connections to my snake boxes.
>>
>> 2.) It is, however, a code violation and a potential fire hazard.
>> I would not do it if I were you. I'd hate to have to rebuild. It's
>> a lot more trouble than pulling new speaker wires. BTW, there
>> are alternatives to ripping down the ceiling. You could use wire
>> "tape" -- flat, wide copper wire that can be painted over -- to
>> bring sound to the rear speakers. Another possibility is a
>> "carpet shot" where you run the wire along the edge of the
>> wall-to-wall carpet between the tack strip and the wall. There
>> are no nails there and the tack strip should keep furniture legs
>> from pinching your cables. 14-Gauge is more than adequate for
>> the job.
>>
Gary Harper
"Robert L Bass" <rober...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:sqwz8.231685$3L2.21...@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Philip Lewis
>Other than "it's code", why?
you know... I'd love to see a book like that...
"NEC Code and Why we made them that way"
--
be safe,
flip
^___^
\^.^/
==u==
Malcolm Blackhall
Robert L Bass
>
> You should cross speaker wire and AC wire at 90 degrees to prevent hum.
You won't lose anything by doing that, but you also won't gain anything.
Here's where this is often misunderstood.
Line level and mic level audio running parallel to AC cables can pick up
(this is called "induction") AC hum much like the secondary windings in a
transformer induce a current as the magnetic field on the primary windings
breaks down and reforms with the AC cycles. Until it passes through the
amp, neither the AC noise nor the good signal is audible to the human ear.
When the signal reaches the amp, if the AC has not been cancelled out using
twisted pair cable, a balanced circuit or both or if it has not been blocked
by proper shielding, the AC hum is amplified along with the good signal.
Because the good signal is not much stronger than the noise (low SNR) the
hum is heard in the output.
Speaker wire also picks up AC hum. However, the good signal has already
been amplified to the point where it is many times more powerful than the
tiny inducted signal. You can hear the good stuff fine but you won't hear
the inducted AC noise. To test this, let's eliminate everything but
inducted AC on a pair of speaker cables. Just to disprove the silly claims
some audio salesmen make, use the cheapest speaker cables you can find.
Make then any gauge you want. Run 100 feet of this cheap-o speaker cable
right next to an extension cord. Plug a fat load into the extension cord.
Leave the other end of the speaker connected to your amp, but unplug the
amp. That way, if the amp itself is contributing noise we are eliminating
it from the test. Now go over to the speaker and give it a listen. Sit
close and tell me if you hear any hum.
The above is not intended to demean or insult Gary H or anyone else. This
is a commonly held misconception about speaker cables and inducted AC.
Those who sell outrageously expensive speaker cables the size of the
transatlantic cable want you to believe all kinds of nonsense about speaker
cables, induction, balance, "open-ness" (whatever the hell that is), sound
staging (as though your speaker cables could affect digital signal
processing that happens *in front of* the amp), etc., ad nauseum.
Robert L Bass
fireside reading to the kiddies at night. :)
"Philip Lewis" <fl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:200204301653....@smtp6.andrew.cmu.edu...
Robert L Bass
Richard wrote:
>
>> That's a no-no. Don't do it.
>
Robert L Bass
and it must be installed in accordance with the NEC rules. In fact, all
current carrying conductors are required to be installed according to code.
Needless to say, this only applies to USA stuff.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
Philip Lewis
>There are several good books about the code. None of them make for pleasant
>fireside reading to the kiddies at night. :)
Sure it does, if you've brought them up right....
:)
"And that's the story of the shared neutral 240V circuit"
"zzzzzzz"
--
be safe,
flip
J. Clarke
says...
> There are indeed some wires which are UL listed for in-wall use, and
> therefore perfectly acceptable to the National Electric Code.
Please read the _subject_. In-wall use is not the issue. Close
proximity to power wiring is the issue.
>
> As far as fire hazard goes, I really don't see speaker wiring posing the
> same threat that household AC wiring does. And there isn't any more of a
> threat inside a wall than running alongside/under carpeting or furniture.
> Actually, once properly installed, inside the wall is a pretty safe place
> (if you make sure you keep the necessary 1.25" distance from the wall
> surface).
The code issue is safety, not fire. Running low voltage and power
cabling in close proximity leads to the possibility of power getting
into the low voltage. If someone is touching a low-voltage wire when
that happens he can get hurt or killed.
> As far as the rear speakers being of limited frequency band than the fronts
> and centers, well that depends on what type of receiver you have. If you
> will be listening to SACD, then all 5 main channels have essentially a full
> frequency range, and yes, this wiring configuration could (it does, but can
> you hear it) affect your signal quality to your rear speakers. If you don't
> have DVD-A, DTS, DD, or Dolby Pro Logic II, then yes, your rears will have a
> more limited frequency range.
>
> If you have never listened to this setup yet, you may not notice any
> degradation. However, you would be better off re-routing if that isn't too
> much work. Can you run wires in your ceiling joists or on top of a drop
> ceiling?
??? How is running the cable over the ceiling better than running it
through the wall?
--
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(used to be jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Joe Greco
:On Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:50:36 GMT, "Robert L Bass" <rober...@comcast.net>
:wrote:
:>I disagree.
:>
:>It isn't a matter of using speaker wire rated for in-wall use. That was
:>assumed (perhaps it should have been noted). The problem is running the two
:>in the same holes with the 110/220VAC stuff. That's a no-no. Don't do it.
:Other than "it's code", why?
Induction.
For kicks, it'd be interesting to run a speaker wire next to a 100' 10/3
extension cord (yes, they make such a thing, it's very expensive) with a
nice 17 amp load and then go measure what shows up on the speaker wire.
I would imagine some commercial sites might have substantially higher
potential for 'badness' but I would imagine most household scenarios
wouldn't get much worse than 20 amps.
As Robert and I have been discussing in another thread, the NEC does exist
for a good reason. Induction can be insidious. There are good, valid
reasons not to run cable in haphazard ways. Even running stuff in conduit
is not necessarily a guarantee: ever seen a section of conduit start
getting warm from induction?
To the guy who was saying that he couldn't find anything in the code about
low and high voltage wiring... WHAT?!?!? Geez. :-) It says lots, with
the main idea being "Don't mix 'em".
... JG
Robert L Bass
"Philip Lewis" <fl...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:200204301756....@smtp7.andrew.cmu.edu...
Robert L Bass
> >
> > If you have never listened to this setup yet, you may not notice any
> > degradation. However, you would be better off re-routing if that isn't
too
> > much work. Can you run wires in your ceiling joists or on top of a drop
> > ceiling?
>
> ??? How is running the cable over the ceiling better than running it
> through the wall?
It's not. I think he was offering uit as possibly an easier alternative to
redoing in-wall runs.
Robert L Bass
used them for my compressors and power tools years ago. I owned a paint
contracting business while I was in college (a bunch of full-time painters
and little old me running around making sales). These days with cordless
drills that can take your arm off I hardly ever use an extension cord. :)
I've also seen conduit get warm (actually, make that just about hot enough
to ignite paper). Someone decided to run a bunch of 2KW stage lamps on
14-Gauge (a no-no in and of itself). The 1" conduit was literally stuffed
with wires. I noticed the conduit was warm as I got close to it while
working on the rigging over a temporary sound stage. Someone had the bright
idea to run a bunch of THHN in a pipe with J-boxes and pig-tails on the
ends. He could then push it across the open span above the stage to where a
cluster of ERS spots and big PARs were hung from the trusses. The darn
thing was hotter than a pistol.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
"Joe Greco" <jgr...@ns.sol.net> wrote in message
news:3ccf15bc$0$3569$39de...@news.sol.net...
J. Clarke
rober...@comcast.net says...
Something that got lost in the noise (so to speak) was the fact that
regardless of the reason, crossing signal and power at 90 degrees is
"good practice". That way 20 years from now when someone decides to use
the same cable to carry a low-amplitude signal of some sort (maybe the
control signals for the active adaptive nonlinear technobabble-maximized
speaker systems they'll be selling then) they don't have to troubleshoot
their noise problem.
One of those things that involves little effort, no cost, can do no
harm, and may help, so why not do it.
> Regards,
> Robert L Bass
>
> =============================>
> Bass Home Electronics
> The Online DIY Alarm Store
> http://www.Bass-Home.com
> 2291 Pine View Circle
> Sarasota, FL 34231
> 877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
> 941-925-9747 Fax
> rober...@comcast.net
> =============================>
>
>
>
>
--
Robert L Bass
John Davison
I have 14 gage speaker wire running next to electric wire (in some places)
and have not noticed any distortion or hum.
-- John
http://www.davisonfamily.org/john/
To reply to me via e-mail, replace the "junkmail" username with my first
name.
Lewis Gardner
>>It isn't a matter of using speaker wire rated for in-wall use. That was
>>assumed (perhaps it should have been noted). The problem is running the two
>>in the same holes with the 110/220VAC stuff. That's a no-no. Don't do it.
>
Violating the electrical code is enough reason not to do it...
The reason it is an violation of the electrical code is what happens if for some
reason (nail, structural failure, fire...) the insulation on the wiring fails. In
that case line voltage would be connected to a low voltage circuit which would
not be designed or protected to operate at the higher voltage. Possible results
include loss of life, severe injury or destruction of property.
Drill your own holes. Keep them separate.
Robert L Bass
the distinct chance a short would introduce 110V or 220V to your speaker
coil. That could cause a fire.
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
Richard ©ç® ²ºº²
"Lewis Gardner" <gar...@simplifiedtechnologies.com> wrote in message news:3ccecb78$1...@news.iglou.com...
:
: >>It isn't a matter of using speaker wire rated for in-wall use. That was
: >>assumed (perhaps it should have been noted). The problem is running the two
: >>in the same holes with the 110/220VAC stuff. That's a no-no. Don't do it.
: >
: >Other than "it's code", why?
:
: Violating the electrical code is enough reason not to do it...
===================
IF something (fire or shock) happens and IF the insurance company investigates thoroughly, you will be in a world of hurt.
=======================
:
: The reason it is an violation of the electrical code is what happens if for some
:
:
GoobAudio
"Richard ©ç® ²ºº²" <post-xxage@spamcop dot net> wrote in message
news:3cd14...@news.foxinternet.com...
>
> "Lewis Gardner" <gar...@simplifiedtechnologies.com> wrote in message
news:3ccecb78$1...@news.iglou.com...
> :
> : >>It isn't a matter of using speaker wire rated for in-wall use. That
was
> : >>assumed (perhaps it should have been noted). The problem is running
the two
> : >>in the same holes with the 110/220VAC stuff. That's a no-no. Don't
do it.
> : >
> : >Other than "it's code", why?
> :
> : Violating the electrical code is enough reason not to do it...
>
> ===================
> IF something (fire or shock) happens and IF the insurance company
investigates thoroughly, you will be in a world of hurt.
> =======================
While it is a good idea to keep them separate, it is not a violation of NEC
so long as the voltage on all conductors is under 600 volts and each
conductor is insulated to the level of the voltage on the conductors. One
could run 220VAC power and a mic wiring in the same cable jacket, raceway or
conduit and not violate NEC code.
Lewis Gardner
>While it is a good idea to keep them separate, it is not a violation of NEC
>so long as the voltage on all conductors is under 600 volts and each
>conductor is insulated to the level of the voltage on the conductors. One
>could run 220VAC power and a mic wiring in the same cable jacket, raceway or
>conduit and not violate NEC code.
I hope you are trolling with the above incorrect statement.
GoobAudio
Not a good idea however.
NEC 1999 - 300-3(c)(1).news:3cd21...@news.iglou.com...
Lewis Gardner
Read on to Article 725, specifically 725-54.
GoobAudio wrote in message <3cd27dba$1...@nopics.sjc>...
Robert L Bass
"GoobAudio" <phils...@telocity.com> wrote in message
news:3cd27dba$1...@nopics.sjc...
Avi
> The code issue is safety, not fire. Running low voltage and power
> cabling in close proximity leads to the possibility of power getting
> into the low voltage. If someone is touching a low-voltage wire when
> that happens he can get hurt or killed.
>
Is this the definitive explanation? I'm about to run RG6, speaker
wire, and CAT5e wiring to most rooms of my house. Especially in the
basement, it seems impossible to run the wires without running them
parallel and proximate to the electrical wiring. If I drill new holes
for these low-voltage wires into the wall cavities, is that
sufficient? Is it a problem if elsewhere in the same cavity there are
electrical wires?
Thanks for the advice.
Avi
Richard ©ç® ²ºº²
====================
"Avi" <ameye...@usa.net> wrote in message news:4f430a4e.02050...@posting.google.com...
: >
: > The code issue is safety, not fire. Running low voltage and power
Robert L Bass
110VAC and two feet from 220VAC. That's for induction. For safety, just
stay out of the same holes, conduit, etc., as the power stuff.
You can run them closer and parallel for a few feet (say up a wall cavity to
an outlet or keypad) without trouble, but when your traversing the attic or
basement, try to keep them apart. Where they do cross, the closer it is to
90º the better. It's not a surgical room. You don't need to make the
environment perfect. Just try to avoid long, parallel runs and don't use
the same hole.
--
Regards,
Robert L Bass
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
The Online DIY Alarm Store
http://www.Bass-Home.com
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota, FL 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
rober...@comcast.net
=============================>
"Avi" <ameye...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:4f430a4e.02050...@posting.google.com...
> >
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com
wrote in message <q4nB8.73975$q8.76...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>:
>As a rule of thumb, try to keep lengthy parallel runs one foot away from
>110VAC and two feet from 220VAC. That's for induction. For safety, just
>stay out of the same holes, conduit, etc., as the power stuff.
>
>You can run them closer and parallel for a few feet (say up a wall cavity to
>an outlet or keypad) without trouble, but when your traversing the attic or
>basement, try to keep them apart. Where they do cross, the closer it is to
>90º the better. It's not a surgical room. You don't need to make the
>environment perfect. Just try to avoid long, parallel runs and don't use
>the same hole.
When retrofitting low-voltage wires in existing buildings, sometimes in is
not practical to maintain a foot of separation. In one vertical run in my
house where space was very limited -- and partly created in the masonry with
cold-chisel and hammer and sweat -- I wrapped the low voltage wires in
aluminum foil and tinned drain wires (digital separated from DC control and
audio). Dunno if it was necessary but I have not experienced interference,
So, as the NY NY street feller said when asked why he wore a charm to keep
elephants away , "It's effective".
HTH ... Marc
H...@xxxhydrologistxxx.com