Is x10 on the down and out?
Dan Irwin
I'm a regular on this form(in reading at least) and I've seen a lot of
posts lately about X10 alternatives. I'm about to invest a large
amount of money in retrofitting my home for home automation, and I'm
starting to wonder if X10 is being attacked from all sides and
collapsing. Is this the result of the inevitable push for home
automation into mainstream housing coming to life? My problem is that
much of the high-end home automation software and things like the OMNI
systems seem to only support x10. What is everyone else's opinion on
this?
Yours truly,
Dan
Southern
news:2a779348.04030...@posting.google.com...
Err...the HAI Omni supports ALC, Lightolier and has announced support for
LutronRA and Universal Powerline Bus, all in addition to several flavors of
X10.
That said, the real decisions you need to make are:
Hardwired Lighting Control
PC Centric or Embedded main controller.
Hardwired is the right way to go for lights, if you can afford it and deal
with the opening of walls that will be required. There are a number of
potential systems out there such at ALC, Lightolier, Lutron, Centralite,
Touchplate, and others. ALC would be the minimum fuss in your situation.
For non-hardwired systems there are two sub categories, RF and Power Line
Control (PLC) and . In the wireless category there is Lutron RA and Z-wave.
Lutron is quite expensive, and not supported for DIY. Zwave is new and does
not yet have a broad product offering. However, it does look promising. In
terms of PLC, the two main ones are X10, made by several vendors in several
flavors and Lightolier Compose which uses a firewall to increase
reliability.
In terms of controllers, the big decision is PC centric or not. In the PC
centric case there are a number of programs out there. Homeseer is the big
dog for Windows, but there are other credible offerings as well. There is
at least one for Mac, and the Linux community has a open source project as
well. Using a PC gives you superb flexibility, but the sever must be up for
the system to be fully functional. Embedded systems do not require a PC to
operate, though most are programmed via one, mostly with Windows
applications. They tend to be more reliable and become much more a part of
the house. However, no one controller can do everything, and extending it
is often not practical,
In your situation I suggest you decide whether you want PC centric or not.
If you go the PC route, I urge that you do as much of the programming in the
embedded controllers as possible. If you have a disc crash, you don't want
the pipes to freeze. From there look at the cost per control point
installed. If you can afford hardwired do it. It is always the superior
solution. On the other hand, X10 is the lowest cost and can be done over
time. Installed costs not including controller can be as low as $15/control
point (cheapest X10), $60 (high end X10/Compose), $80 for ALC, to more for
most other hardwired lighting systems.
I install professionally and dislike the PC centric approach and X10
lighting for reasons of reliability. If the light does not turn on, I get a
service call, which in turns lowers any profit I might be making from the
account. However, I do install PCs (and networks...) and interface them to
the HA systems as more as a command and status tool than the brains of the
house, which works very well. PC centric and X10 can be used by a DIY who
is ready and willing to deal with an occasional hiccup as a low cost entry
to HA. However, if you stay with it, my experience is that you will move to
some sort of embedded controller over time.
Some sample approaches
HAI (Security and HVAC and ALC Control)
ALC (lights)
PC w/monitoring S/W
HAI (Security/HVAC/Light Control)
X10 or Compose (Lights)
PC with monitoring S/W
Stargate (HVAC X10 Control)
X10 Lights
Caddx (Security)
PC w/monitoring software
Ocelot/Leopard (X10 Control/Limited Security)
X10 (lights)
Ocelot/Leopard (X10 Control)
X10 (lights)
Stand alone security
PC w/control software
Napco (Security)
X10 or Zwave (lights)
X10 (HVAC)
PC w/control software
Napco security
Ocelot/Leopard (X10 control)
X10 Lights (commanded by Ocelot and PC)
PC w/control software
Napco (Security)
Hard wired lighting (several choices_
Hardwired thermostat control
My choices in your situation would be either a HAI or Stargate/Caddx with
X10 lights, or HAI/ALC if I could. If budget were the big driver, PC with
Homeseer and X10 lights added incrementally.. Add hard wired thermostats
and Napco at a later time.
I am sure I have left out some products, and certainly not included all
possible combinations. However, I offer them as a place to start, and I'm
sure others with contribute and fill in the holes.
Southern
Chuck Yerkes
Sure, X10 will be gone by 1990 - it's old tech from 1978. It's not
reliable.
I don't love X10; nobody does. but it's both CHEAP to add in and,
frankly, reliable enough for most people most of the time.
As I've said before, I'd *love* to have a controllable outlet
or light switch - a switch or outlet that spoke RS485 or
ethernet or a serial IP thing. A $4 PIC chip welded to a triac
welded to a $4 outlet would be great. Sell it to me for < $20.
I'd be happy to start running CAT3 to every outlet. RS485 would
allow chaining. Or even "home run" to a box in the center of
a pair of rooms and CAT5 back to the main controller.
But we don't have that. We *do* have competitors that use
(proprietary) RF and cost upwards of $150 per outlet.
Designers and dealers will assure you that spending $3000 to
automate a house is nothing. That's many months of my mortgage
for something that's just a little fun - hardly compelling.
Millions of people live without home automation; so it's clearly
a luxury.
X10 is priced for that. Heck, even SmartHome's $80+ switches
are high priced. I can't justify with the SO (even if she
IS an SA and speaks Irix and BSD better than she speaks Windows)
that cost for 20 light switches. (and it's 99% reliable, so
that means it fails at least once per day at something).
So give me an alternative to X10. Hardwired, but inexpensive.
Make it an open protocol (let me speak directly to it with a
documented protocol and no patents stopping me) and I'll jump
on it.
Until then, X10 is in its second decade of being replaced.
Dean Roddey
a good choice. I'll be happy to provide a driver for whatever lighting
system you choose. You can mix and match since it supports the Omni panels,
i.e. allow the Omni to handle some of the low level stuff but let CQC
provide the overall umbrella since it can handle anything with just the
addition of a driver for it. It's inexpensive but very powerful. It handles
X-10 and IR and serial, socket, and USB based devices currently.
You can get in cheap with a very low end PC (CQC is only $200 for the base
package, which is 95% of the product at this time since there is only one
optional compnent) and some additional control ports, learn your way around,
and then if you decide to go for it, you can scale it up as you need. It is
network distributed so you can run it all one machine, or distribute control
around the house as required or desired. It's a secure system so each user
has an account and rights, so you can keep control of the system. It has a
powerful user drawn interface system that allows you to create sets of very
attractive interfaces for touch screen PCs in a kiosk mode, or just in
running it as another app in the PC. And it has a very powerful object
oriented macro language built in, with graphical development environment so
that you can test your macros out nicely.
"Dan Irwin" <harrygu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.04030...@posting.google.com...
Dan Irwin
2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
ok?
"Dean Roddey" <dro...@charmedquark.com> wrote in message news:<2uy2c.20856$uK3....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>...
Group Moderator
From: "Dan Irwin" harrygu...@aol.com
Date: 3/7/2004 6:06 Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <news:2a779348.0403...@posting.google.com>
1.homeseer can do all of that also
2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
ok?
Mike says:
Quit being such a bASSHOLE. I am the only one who keeps targeting Basses
poop chute. None of the rest of you putzes say a damn thing about bASS. He
is my bitch and the rest of you should quit sniffing after him.
We carry LOXXON and other fine security products. Now you can kiss my fat
moist furry ass for advertising here too. Even better, look up my stellar
ebay record.
Mike, Sabodish
33 Years in the trade
Great Alarm and HA information:
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/MasterFAQ/FAQ.htm
My Self Portrait
http://goat.cx/
B Fuhrmann
> 2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
> dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
> ok?
Only the dishonest "professional" alarm people complain about Bass.
They have a vendetta because he has helped people without regard to them
doing business with him and are afraid that a knowledgeable customer will no
longer be a customer of THEIRS.
If these jerks had a minimum of talent, they would be here helping people.
---
I see no reason to complain about anyone letting people know that they can
sell them the item they asked about.
However, it would be wise to do a quick check to see if that person is here
only to sell his item or to be helpful.
www.google.com/advanced_group_search?num=100&group=comp.home.automation
Dean Roddey
Ok. If you think it's a better product, then buy it. But, if you don't know
the alternatives, how would you know which one is better?
> 2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
> dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
> ok?
You asked for such a solution, and I told you about the one I offer. Why ask
if you don't want to know?
Dean Roddey
here
> only to sell his item or to be helpful.
> www.google.com/advanced_group_search?num=100&group=comp.home.automation
Personally, I kind of consider working like a maniac to create a great
product which sells for a very low price to be helpful in and of itself. I'm
not a custom installer, so I cannot tell anyone how to pull wire or what
wire to pull. All I can do is provide a good product, and do anything I can
to help people make optimum use of it. My company is very new and cannot
afford to buy advertisements, so the only way I have to make people aware of
it is to tell them about it if they indictate they have a problem for which
it is a viable solution.
If that's wrong, I don't wanna be right I guess.
Robert L. Bass
> 2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
> dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
> ok?
Dan,
Dean's a good guy. He sells a product that is of interest here. I wouldn't
chide him for his posts. Although he is hoping to make a sale, his posts
are heavy on content and low on glitz.
I'm going to start selling Dean's Charmed Quark in my online store as soon
as I can work a few code issues concerning the software downloads.
Meanwhile, I read his posts to learn more about what CQC can and cannot do.
Hopefully the software will become popular enough that users will begin
contributing here as well.
No flame here, Dan. :)
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
941-925-9747 Fax
941-232-0791 Wireless
Nextel Private ID - 161*21755*1
http://www.bass-home.com
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
Dan Irwin
programer myself i respect your intsene work, i was just looking at
the double standerts(which i'm starting to understand is just one guy
who is a major aHole) in this board as an outsider who reads alot of
posts.
Dean Roddey
admire the level of energy required to be that pyschotic that many hours a
day. I'm sure that there's some new medication for what it is. Maybe we
should take up a collection or something.
"Dan Irwin" <harrygu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.04030...@posting.google.com...
Frank Olson
news:104mr0o...@corp.supernews.com...
> "Dan Irwin" wrote ...
> > 2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
> > dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
> > ok?
>
> Only the dishonest "professional" alarm people complain about Bass.
Dishonest "professional" alarm people... There are a few I grant you...
They're rare and don't stay in business much longer than the dishonest
"professional" hardware salesman, plumber, or electrician...
> They have a vendetta because he has helped people without regard to them
> doing business with him and are afraid that a knowledgeable customer will no
> longer be a customer of THEIRS.
I could care LESS that you would ever be a customer of mine. I help people here
(and in other forums) because I *ENJOY* my job, the fruits of my 20 years "in
the trade", and teaching people about the systems they use every day. If you
choose to DIY that's your business. If you need help designing or implementing
the products you can purchase locally (or on line), then feel free to ask. The
professionals that participate in ASA have never refused to either answer a
question or offer their advice.
Feel free to go ahead and "judge" the entire profession based on the dynamics
you see displayed in ASA. It's a bit more "intense" than what you'd see in room
full of tradespeople at any industry convention you'd care to name. One thing
you won't see (at an actual convention) is the obvious participation of
individuals like Bass who are known exploit the knowledge of the same people he
says he despises to further his own ends. Do you think for one minute he would
be able to pull the kind of nonsense he does in ASA in an actual room full of
industry professionals?? Take off your blinders for one damn minute and take a
long hard look around.
>
> If these jerks had a minimum of talent, they would be here helping people.
Show me where we haven't.
>
> ---
>
> I see no reason to complain about anyone letting people know that they can
> sell them the item they asked about.
Neither do I. Ask Bass why he won't post his endless FAQ, INFO and PR posts
here in CHA. Why would he post such nonsense in a forum in which he knows a
large number of industry types participate?
>
> However, it would be wise to do a quick check to see if that person is here
> only to sell his item or to be helpful.
> www.google.com/advanced_group_search?num=100&group=comp.home.automation
Yup... and you can also check
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/buyingonline.htm.
Chuck Yerkes
So a little work with QT for GUI stuff and a nice port
to the unix world would be dandy...
Dean Roddey
> to the unix world would be dandy...
Unfortunately the payoff from that, relative to the serious increase in
complexity it would take to maintain it on two platforms, just wouldn't be a
sound business decision, so it will likely remain on Windows only. It could
be ported, since it is based on my CIDLib C++ Frameworks, which completely
abstracts the code from the OS, using a virtual kernel layer. The GUI stuff
is also abstracted, but semantically it would still be hard to port, but the
backend could be ported without a massive effort.
But, porting it is one thing, maintaining and testing two versions would
just be a huge increase in complexity and overhead that I couldn't begin to
afford. Windows is the far larger market, so I have to concentrate on the
one most likely to help me pay the rent really.
Nunya Bizness
Date: 3/7/04 1:38 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <104mr0o...@corp.supernews.com>
"Dan Irwin" wrote ...
> 2. Everyone yells at Bass for selling himself on this board, which he
> dosn't even do. Meanwhile your blanently selling yourself why is that
> ok?
>Only the dishonest "professional" alarm people complain about Bass.<
Dishonest? Would it be dishonest to lie on a license application? How dishonest
would it use an alias and post nasty remarks on a competitor's website?
Better yet, how dishonest would it be fleece a church on the purchase of an
alarm system?
Your pal Bass has done all of the above, and then some. I have personally seen
his "handywork". Have you?
>They have a vendetta because he has helped people without regard to them
doing business with him and are afraid that a knowledgeable customer will no
longer be a customer of THEIRS.<
Nonsense! I don't give a rat's ass who you buy from.
>If these jerks had a minimum of talent, they would be here helping people.<
Why would they be here helping for free? Are they under contract to do so?
As for talent, your pal Bass doesn't have any. He posts answers from manuals.
He has no hands on experience with the products he sells.
---
>I see no reason to complain about anyone letting people know that they can
sell them the item they asked about.<
Would you see a reason to complain if that person was lying to the end users
for the sake of a buck?
>However, it would be wise to do a quick check to see if that person is here
only to sell his item or to be helpful.
www.google.com/advanced_group_search?num=100&group=comp.home.automation
<
And you can do a quicker search on the Sarasota Florida Better Business Bureau
website to see what Bass' reputation is. When you're done you can do a criminal
background check and see how much of a stand up guy your pal Bass is.
I have a few questions for you.
How long have you known Bass?
Have you ever seen his work firsthand?
Would you buy from a criminal?
What experience do you have dealing with Bass?
I can guarantee it's nowhere near the amount of experience we in the alarm
newsgroup have.
There are much more reliable sources (like distributers who sell to end users)
to buy equipment from than Bass, and if you do your homework you'll see their
prices are much cheaper too.
Hey if Bass is your buddy then more power to you, but you should at least tell
the WHOLE story, and not just the bits and pieces that suit your interest.
Personally, while I loathe Bass, I hope he continues to post because his
nonsense is comical. I find it amusing when people like you spout about how
great he is, only to wind up posting how he duped you, or doesn't service his
customers.
Keep the Bass torch lit. it's better than Comedy Central.
BruceR
Nunya Bizness wrote:
-snip-
> Why would they be here helping for free? Are they under contract to
> do so?
Of course they're not "under contract" to do so. But that's what this
forum is all about. Those who are "here helping for free" can develop a
good online reputation/persona and, if they do have something to sell,
gain an occassional customer - even if their price isn't the lowest.
It's a concept sometimes referred to as "marketing" and is used by many
businesses throughout the world.
Then there are those who post here masking their identity with phony or
"cute" names that do nothing but snivel about others without adding any
value to the thread at hand and are dismissed by the group as just so
much noise - far more annoying than the occassional topical commercial
plug.
I, for one, don't know Mr.Bass personally and have never done business
with him. My only experience with him, and the only one that counts from
the standpoint of "NG citizenship," is that he generally provides
useful, accurate and helpful information to those who need it and his
self promotion is limited to occassionaly stating that the product under
discussion is available from his online store. His non-commercial
contributions would certainly seem to more than compensate for his
occassional self promotion.
Eagletron Inc.
to know about other options you have for home security using
inexpensive pan/tilt webcams:
http://www.pantiltcam.com/TCamWeb/solutions_surveillance.htm
Hope this is useful. You can customize a solution according to your
particular parameters.
With X10, anyone can jam your signal or move your camera around!
TrackerCam Development
www.trackercam.com
harrygu...@aol.com (Dan Irwin) wrote in message news:<2a779348.04030...@posting.google.com>...
Eagletron Inc.
is one of the things you are interested in for your home automation.
X10 makes a pan/tilt camera and we provide an alternate solution.
TrackerCam Development
www.trackercam.com
harrygu...@aol.com (Dan Irwin) wrote in message news:<2a779348.04030...@posting.google.com>...
Dan Irwin
likes to play devils advacate :-)
Dan Irwin
Group Moderator
From: "B Fuhrmann" b-fuhrma...@mplsfridayDELETEskate.com
Message-id: <104mr0o...@corp.supernews.com>
Only the dishonest "professional" alarm people complain about Bass.
They have a vendetta because he has helped people without regard to them
doing business with him and are afraid that a knowledgeable customer will no
longer be a customer of THEIRS.
If these jerks had a minimum of talent, they would be here helping people.
Mike Said:
Hey FurBall
I guess the BBB has a vendetta against Robert L. Bass from basshom.com -
bass-home,com and now hiding behind bassburglaralarms.com
Explain this to us DUMBO:
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Group Moderator
Date: 3/7/2004 4:33 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: dfmdnWRYu_L...@giganews.com
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
**CONSUMER BEWARE**
A Convict runs online stores known as Basshome.Com and Bass-Home.com and
BassBurglarAlarms.com . He has a bad rap sheet with the Better Business Bureau
in Florida, You can see that HERE:
http://www.clearwater.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bid=41001663 He recently
changed his name to bassburglaralarms.com to hide from the BBB. He has problems
and issues dealing with customers credit cards. You can see that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/cust3.htm He owned an installation company in
Connecticut for a short while until they caught up to him for lying on his
alarm license application. You can see that HERE: http://goofysplace.com/L5.htm
To try to promote business for his online store he posted BOGUS information in
a competitors guest book. You can read all that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/andy.htm He has not installed a single protective
device in over six years. He only knows what he reads here. He has started wars
with just about everyone in this newsgroup as well as others. He tried to get
an employee fired from his job. You can read that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/grahamsboss.htm Over One Hundred people in various news
groups despise this fast, sweet taking SCAMMER. You can see that HERE:
http://goofysplace.com/asalist.htm AND HERE http://goofysplace.com/aviation.htm
You can read more about him HERE: http://goofysplace.com/testimony.htm There is
even a website about him and what he does HERE: http://goofysplace.com/
So you really want to do business with or take advice from Robert L. Bass from
Basshome.com?
Think again - **Consumer Beware** - You have been warned.
Every link posted here can be found at http://www.google.com Just enter
groups, then Goofy or Robert L, Bass and you will be amazed at what you see.
Dan Irwin
2. what the heack dose that have to do with anything
sa...@eagletron.com (Eagletron Inc.) wrote in message news:<9827bec0.04030...@posting.google.com>...
Eric Ryherd
makes it hard to beat.
But there are a couple of alternatives that are on the market now.
Check out the Z-Wave stuff from Sylvania and a few others.
http://www.smarthome.com/1129.HTML
HomeSeer has excellent support for it.
Reliable, RF based (no new wires!), and reasonably priced (same $ as the
smartlinc junk), secure (encrypted so my neighbor can't turn my lights
on/off).
Eventually there will be ZigBee based products which is a new RF based
standard for home control that is expected to be very cheap (under $5 for
the transceiver) which should yield light switches in the $20 range. And
with data rates of 250kbps it could do voice quality audio.
"Dan Irwin" <harrygu...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2a779348.04030...@posting.google.com...
Dave Houston
>X10 is 1978 technology and hasn't been updated since. But it is CHEAP which
>makes it hard to beat.
>
>But there are a couple of alternatives that are on the market now.
>Check out the Z-Wave stuff from Sylvania and a few others.
>
>Reliable, RF based (no new wires!), and reasonably priced (same $ as the
>smartlinc junk), secure (encrypted so my neighbor can't turn my lights
>on/off).
$40 and up per module isn't especially cheap. The GE SmartHome stuff is
cheaper although with fewer features. Given that GE has discontinued some of
the Interlogix security devices in favor of the new SmartHome line, it
appears they plan to drive the wireless home automation and security market
down pricewise. $20 wall switches, $13 lamp modules, a $30 security
_SYSTEM_, and similar prices for a wide variety of modules is going to be
hard to compete with.
If your neigbor is technically inclined, he/she can futz with your lights at
will. Encryption will not prevent that. Rolling codes would but I haven't
seen any indication that Z-Wave uses rolling codes.
>Eventually there will be ZigBee based products which is a new RF based
>standard for home control that is expected to be very cheap (under $5 for
>the transceiver) which should yield light switches in the $20 range. And
>with data rates of 250kbps it could do voice quality audio.
ZigBee is the latest name (there were about a dozen earlier names - Home RF
was the most widely known one) for a wireless system being pushed by a
consortium of hardware manufacturers. It remains to be seen whether it will
ever make it to market. None of the previous incarnations succeeded.
The fact that they've gotten IEEE approval (802.15.4) is promising. Seeing
actual hardware would be more promising.
I think you'll find Zensys press releases projecting their transceivers
would be in the same price range as ZigBee's projections. That hasn't
happened. $20 ZigBee light switches probably will not happen. $20 GE
switches have happened.
I'm still waiting for all those dirt cheap BlueTooth light switches we were
promised. ;)
Robert L. Bass
When compared to $100+ for ALC and even more for Lutron, it certainly is
cheap. Then again, if you don't have $40 it may seem expensive.
> The GE SmartHome stuff is cheaper although
> with fewer features.... Given that GE has
> discontinued some of the Interlogix security
> devices...
Actually, GE made a marketing decision to drop the "Interlogix" name in
favor of "GE Security." At the same time they decided to stop calling
Caddx, ITI and Sentrol by their original names and just call them (along
with several other brands they own) GE Security. Other than the name change
the product lines are mostly unchanged.
> ... a $30 security _SYSTEM_, and similar prices
> for a wide variety of modules is going to be
> hard to compete with.
No one considers a $30 standalone device a security system (with or without
full caps and underscores).
> If your neigbor is technically inclined, he/she can
> futz with your lights at will. Encryption will not
> prevent that. Rolling codes would but I haven't
> seen any indication that Z-Wave uses rolling codes.
ZWave doesn't use rolling codes. That would be a completely unnecessary
layer of security for lighting and appliance control. The technology
employs unique address codes for every device made. If your neighbor has
the skill plus a lot of time on his hands he can discover how to make your
lights go on and off. That won't get him past your security system.
> The fact that they've gotten IEEE approval (802.15.4)
> is promising. Seeing actual hardware would be more
> promising.
Whereas Zwave hardware is readily available from several manufacturers and
many more are coming on board shortly. RCS has a Zwave thermostat which
they will be marketing sometime later this year. I believe Bruce indicated
that Rich at HomeSeer already has the protocol though I'm not 100% sure of
that.
> I think you'll find Zensys press releases projecting
> their transceivers would be in the same price range
> as ZigBee's projections. That hasn't happened. $20
> ZigBee light switches probably will not happen.
> $20 GE switches have happened.
Who else besides GE is supporting GE light switches?
Chuck Yerkes
Dave Houston wrote:
...
> If your neigbor is technically inclined, he/she can futz with your lights at
> will. Encryption will not prevent that. Rolling codes would but I haven't
> seen any indication that Z-Wave uses rolling codes.
I'm still irked that the basic NOTION of security doesn't enter the
thought processes. People are encouraged to use X10 for thermostats
and relays and things like that.
When my < $1 iButtons have a uniq and large serial number at the
least on them. I dunno, perhaps have a LEARN mode that gets teh SSN
to the controlling computer and then use that as a shared key for an
address...
HA cannot, by definition, be used for critical things until they
stop ignoring the basics. And security needn't be a big deal or
a show stopper; its a step of development.
>>Eventually there will be ZigBee based products which is a new RF based
>>standard for home control that is expected to be very cheap (under $5 for
>>the transceiver) which should yield light switches in the $20 range. And
>>with data rates of 250kbps it could do voice quality audio.
>
> ZigBee is the latest name (there were about a dozen earlier names - Home RF
> was the most widely known one) for a wireless system being pushed by a
> consortium of hardware manufacturers. It remains to be seen whether it will
> ever make it to market. None of the previous incarnations succeeded.
>
> The fact that they've gotten IEEE approval (802.15.4) is promising. Seeing
> actual hardware would be more promising.
A recognised standard (IEEE not "industry standard") is a good thing.
Too often patents are used to keep competition out rather than protect
investements legitimately (I deal with Software patent issues at times
and the phrase "non obvious" seems undefined to the USPTO).
> I think you'll find Zensys press releases projecting their transceivers
> would be in the same price range as ZigBee's projections. That hasn't
> happened. $20 ZigBee light switches probably will not happen. $20 GE
> switches have happened.
>
> I'm still waiting for all those dirt cheap BlueTooth light switches we were
> promised. ;)
Right, I want more thing using my radio waves in that frequency. From
my house, I can see (and easily break the WEP of) at least 5 airports
along with several phones, uWaves and other annoying things.
And I'm still waiting for the IPStack on a chip that would make a simple
IP over RS485 with a couple IO lines on the bad.
Robert L. Bass
The notion is there, alrtight. It's just that lighting and thermostat
settings are not normally a security issue for most folks. It isn't as
though someone is going to break into your home even if he discovers the
control codes for your living room lights. Someone might be able to
inconvenience you by messing with your thermostat if they have the skill and
hardware to do so. It won't burn your house down and it won't make it
freeze up either since thermostats have maximum and miinimum settings beyond
which they cannot be set by you or a hacker. These are simply not security
issues.
> People are encouraged to use X10 for thermostats
> and relays and things like that.
As long as they're not connected to things that can disarm your alarm or b
reak something major X10 controlled devices are not going to cause morte
than mild annoyances if someone gets into the system.
> When my < $1 iButtons have a uniq and large serial
> number at the least on them...
Your iButton can be used to operate an access control device. As such, it
needs more robust protection than a lamp module.
>> HA cannot, by definition, be used for critical things
>> until they stop ignoring the basics. And security
>> needn't be a big deal or a show stopper; its a step of
>> development.
Many of the better HA systems do a proper security job as well as provide
control and convenience features. For example, the Napco Gemini / HomeSeer
system is based on a UL-listed burglary and fire alarm control panel.
Alarm and Home Automation System FAQ
http://www.bass-home.com/faq/masterfaq/faq.htm
Regards,
Robert
=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
Dave Houston
>And I'm still waiting for the IPStack on a chip that would make a simple
>IP over RS485 with a couple IO lines on the bad.
That's been available for a couple of years but the chip is $20-25 and you
need an MCU, power, RS485 driver, etc. which adds up quickly.