The death of Lotus Notes
LotusMan
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2852062-5,00.htm
l
despite what they inferred at Lotusphere 2002 it looks like Notes will just
become another part of Websphere/DB2.
And shouldnt it have been Al Zoller making an announcement like this rather
than some bloke from IBM ?
Lyngby
Michael
DK
"LotusMan" <DAVR...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:JPoj8.7609$RJ4.37269@NewsReader...
Mark Gregory
its becoming another OFFICE VISION
MarkG
"Lyngby" <w...@get2net.dk> wrote in message
news:Fzwj8.733$2E2....@news.get2net.dk...
TCR
Article :
"But it's fundamentally built on the Notes file system, which is a late '80s
design point."
Now the implications here really piss me off.
I'm forever having to explain to people that Domino is capable of talking to
any other SQL database, just as any other webserver might. When you have a
need for a transactional, high-volume system, this makes a great deal of
sense.
However, the Notes database structure is fundamentally non-relational.
Granted.
It also happens to be highly-cached, and running in tandem with the web
serving thread.
For the content delivery requirements of a web application, how can this be
bad?
80's database subsystem. OK. Fair enough. And SQL was developed by Dr Ted
Codd at IBM in 1970.
Basically this kind of attitude is what I feared when IBM took over Lotus.
In my time as a Domino consultant, I've always been able to separate the
people I've met professionally as either "getting it", or "not getting it".
The IBM guy seems a prime example. I doubt he could really "get it" at
gunpoint.
In terms of application software development, they're idealistically
bankrupt.
The whole focus is jumping on the right bandwagons, and trying to leverage a
good service business out of other peoples' ideas. Hence the love affair
with Java, Linux and Apache (all damn good things in their own right, IMHO).
If you want to think of home-grown IBM efforts, think OS/2.
Typically clunky, horribly over-engineered efforts. Playing catch-up with
those around them.
I fully understand when companies take over other ones to kill competing
offerings, or to gain a valued section to their portfolio. IBM just seem
dead set on letting a successful (60m seats, still?) product line decline
through mismanagement, and misunderstanding.
They do make nice hard-drives though. ;-)
TCR.
Christopher Ames
>
> They do make nice hard-drives though. ;-)
>
> TCR.
>
>
>
http://www-
3.ibm.com/storage/hdd/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/E0B26749E1A7728C87256B29005
5ECA5/$file/D120GXP_ds.pdf
Nope they killed that too. Check out the no more than 333 power-on hours
per month less than 8 hours a day. All I have to say is after having two
GXPs die this year."So thats why they died"
Christopher
Mun
don't know why. It is difficult for them to be convinced that Domino can
do a lot of things, a lot of web things.. To them, Domino/Notes is old
technology. And these people don't quite equate web-based Domino
applications as web applications. In fact, they are more attracted to MS
TeamServices and MS Content Management Server. Such a "technology
overhaul" for Notes is timely, I think.
And really, Lotus/IBM should polish up its Notes client, and its iNotes.
R5 client is good, but still I complain sometimes, like, if I delete a
mail from the sent view using the delete key, I need to use the mouse to
click 'delete'. I can't just press Enter. Not all users use the mouse
always, especially power users.. Such small little things sometimes get
me on my nerves........
Joey Joe Joe
to do the same thing 18 months ago.
--
-
John
"Mark Gregory" <Mark.G...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
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Mark Gregory
to have re-wrote the code for Warp (CLAIM) but NT351 shared a lot of its
problems....
Mark
"TCR" <webm...@intermatics.NO.SPAM.PLEASE.net> wrote in message
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RGN
"Mun" <non...@example.com> wrote in message
news:3C8F061A...@example.com...
> And really, Lotus/IBM should polish up its Notes client, and its iNotes.
> R5 client is good, but still I complain sometimes, like, if I delete a
> mail from the sent view using the delete key, I need to use the mouse to
> click 'delete'. I can't just press Enter. Not all users use the mouse
> always, especially power users.. Such small little things sometimes get
> me on my nerves........
To avoid using the mouse I usually press the delete key and then press F9
key. It prompts me on wether I wish to delete and I press the Enter key :-)
It's one more button to press but atleast i don't have to use the mouse ;-)
-RGN
Rune Carlsen
relational database compability to Notes.
--
Regards,
Rune Carlsen
www.dominozone.net // ru...@dominozone.net
"LotusMan" <DAVR...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:JPoj8.7609$RJ4.37269@NewsReader...
Joey Joe Joe
It is NOT adding DB2 relational database compatibility to Notes.
It is replacing Notes with a DB2/Websphere hybrid.
Precisely what they said THEY WEREN'T going to do. If it was a bad idea when
Microsoft suggested it 18 months ago, why is it such a good idea now ?
Why upgrade to R6 knowing it's a dead product even before it's released ?
It's not the path so much as the underhand way they're doing it.
"Rune Carlsen" <ru...@nospam.dominozone.net> wrote in message
news:nAZj8.9988$eJ6.1...@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
Lenny
putting in DB2.
Don't they mean it's like replacing a heart WITH a liver :)
"Joey Joe Joe" <DAVR...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote in message
news:Y%%j8.13257$RJ4.76353@NewsReader...
zoo
And MS is doing samething ala Sharepoint. If Domino is enhanced by DB2, why
not? And DB2 architects did help with the current version of the ODS. The
fundamental problem is that its not scalable.
Lenny
'supposedly' in charge of Lotus. Sounds like he's just a pawn to me.
It's the lies and deceit more than anything else. First Garnet, now this.
What next ?
"zoo" <z...@zoo.dom> wrote in message
news:nOck8.29090$ia.57...@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net...
Glyn Perks
funny reading all the Lotus stuff about Microsoft from that period for
slagging them off for updating the back end and what a massive amount of
problems it'd give customers. Well they say imitation is the sincerest form
of flattery.
Well you lot deserve everything you get. You just soak up all their crap and
let them walk all over you. Bye Bye Lotus, it was nice knowing you. Shame
you sold your soul. I'm off to get into the 'GROOVE.NET'
"zoo" <z...@zoo.dom> wrote in message
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Tim Schmidt
Check this commentary from NetworkWorldFusion News:
Karl-Henry Martinsson
>
>
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2852062-5,00.htm
l
>
> despite what they inferred at Lotusphere 2002 it looks like Notes will
just
> become another part of Websphere/DB2.
I read it a bit different. Not that Notes will be a part of Websphere/DB2,
but that Notes/Domino will be built on top of Websphere. There is actually a
difference.
You would not say that (for exampel) Word is a part of Windows? It is built
on top of Windows, storing it's data through Windows calls onto a data
storage (FAT16/FAT32/NTFS) that the operating system is using.
Personally I do not care if Notes/Domino store the data in a .nsf file, in a
.txt tab-separated textfile, in an .XML file or in an DB2 database. That is
something the system is doing in the background.
As long as my Lotusscript code opens the correct document when I ask for it,
it does not matter what the backend looks like.
If it will give me better performance or other benefits, then it's fine with
me. If not, I don't want it. I also have a feeling that my administrator
does not want to have to learn WebSphere or DB2, but if the install program
just set everything up transparent, like today, who cares?
However, I see benefits for IBM doing this. Instead of having two teams, one
developing DB2 and one doing .nsf development, the developers can be put
into one group, working together. Hopefully this will increase the quality
of the code and get new features to market faster. This will benefit
everyone.
Another benefit, as I see it, is that if Domino is using DB2 to store data,
it may be much easier to have Domino integrate with systems using DB2. So
this would actually benefit Notes, because DB2-shops might do more
development using Domino if they want to create websites or applications for
their users.
/KHM
Dames
"Karl-Henry Martinsson" <k...@suespammers.org> wrote in message
news:a6t52g$h01lr$1...@ID-62184.news.dfncis.de...
> However, I see benefits for IBM doing this. Instead of having two
teams, one
> developing DB2 and one doing .nsf development, the developers can be
put
> into one group, working together. Hopefully this will increase the
quality
> of the code and get new features to market faster. This will benefit
> everyone.
>
> Another benefit, as I see it, is that if Domino is using DB2 to store
data,
> it may be much easier to have Domino integrate with systems using DB2.
So
> this would actually benefit Notes, because DB2-shops might do more
> development using Domino if they want to create websites or
applications for
> their users.
>
> /KHM
Thanks for the positve outlook. I hope you're right.
--
Dames, CLP
Karl Roberts
I think your wrong. I personally was annoyed at Garnet due to the handling,
but thats all.
However, I think a lot of people will be surprised by what comes along. I
mean pleasantly of course!
Notes is Dead, with almost 100million seats and hooks into enterprise
systems do you really believe that.
Notes will be broken up, yep it's core technologies will appear in different
places ERP systems and much more. It depends on how broken up they mean.
Notes will adapt, many new opportunities for you folks out there, Websphere
product families, WebServices, and much more.
Many people forget the contribution that IBM made to get Notes to where it
is, and if you don't realise that then you've not been following the real
story.
Also Is Garnet Really Dead? Maybe as it was..But.....
Cheers
"LotusMan" <DAVR...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote in message
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Dave Jones
Karl, you really have been sucked in by the dark side. Have you been paid
off ? :)
"Karl Roberts" <Karl.R...@DigitalUnion.com> wrote in message
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zoo
says...
has said Domino will be built on Websphere. Websphere is a container for J2EE
and EJB's. Domino will be built on J2EE technology, so BEA and iplanet will
probably work with Domino too.
Dave Jones
which got bought and then dumped.
I'm having a bit of Deja Vous here.
"zoo" <z...@zoo.dom> wrote in message
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TCR
> OS/2 was not IBM's idea is was LAN manager 1 (Microsoft) guys.. they claim
> to have re-wrote the code for Warp (CLAIM) but NT351 shared a lot of its
> problems....
> Mark
Good point, but I guess I intended mine to be broader, in that "those who
forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it".
Check out this article :
http://www.linuxandmain.com/features/os2retro.html
It's about OS/2, but I think that if you substitute "OS/2" for "Lotus
Domino", some of these quotes still sorta make sense :
"If no one inside IBM could be found to mishandle the product at some
crucial juncture, ... had plenty of enemies on the outside willing to fill
the gap."
"The product never had the support of IBM. The marketing was amateurish at
best. It was constantly sabotaged from within by IBM. Some of its worst
enemies were at the IBM PC Company."
"They're not a reliable business partner. They had a strategy du jour. IBM
has an ability to turn gold into lead."
Perhaps I'm being quite unfair, but it's something to think about.
Mark Gregory
Mark
"TCR" <webm...@intermatics.NO.SPAM.PLEASE.net> wrote in message
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Barrie Martindale
"RGN" <re...@newmedia.no> wrote in message
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Rune Carlsen
Rune
"Lenny" <Lenny...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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T. Galli
ran it into the ground, only to be replaced by Access? No great loss
in that case but an interesting parallel perhaps.
Dave Jones
"T. Galli" <agall...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Damond Walker
> relational database compability to Notes.
>
>
I'd much rather have them fix the product first before adding any
new features.
That's must my opinion as a customer and a developer...but that
doesn't matter much. Now does it?
Damond