Motion Designer is still useless

mike

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Nov 14, 2001, 11:18:10 AM11/14/01

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Is it possible to make motion designer control bones, and let the
bones deform the polys? It seems impossible to get MD to deform
anything without making it look like shite.

That would be a nice feature. To have physics that don't turn your
object into a crumbled up piece of paper with one shift in settings.
Jesus Christ.

Hey Newtek, how about ditching this Motion Designer hack thing and
implement some real collision detection in your software. I find it
hard to believe that you can't make it so each object has new tab in
it properties panel which is called "Dynamics". Then you could just
click buttons to set which objects will collide with which and what
properties they will have(presets for Hair, cloth, rubber, etc.) No
more of this cryptic plugin bullshit...that MD interface is a big
convoluted mess. I spend so much time trying to get the deformations
to look good, I'm usually better off putting bones in the object and
animating it by hand.

I'm sure I'll be getting bullshit flames like "do you want the
software to do everything for you?" Every time I've attempted using
Motion Designer, it turns into combat with the software...

Mike

Geoff (LondonUK)

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Nov 14, 2001, 11:29:46 AM11/14/01

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Geezer,
I feel your pain from here! Doubtless you'll get flamed for the strength of
language but apart from that I know exactly what you mean. I've not seen a
commercial cloth system on anything available to the general public that
does the job properly so it's not just Lightwave. Whenever I've tried to
make any clothing it always looks like it's made from rubber, bouncing and
stretching about like something out of a Dali painting.....this includes
Maya cloth as well.

But yeah......Built in "at your fingertips" dynamics would be very cool.

cheers

Geoff

"mike" <adr...@home.com> wrote in message
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Dave Adams

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Nov 14, 2001, 11:57:07 AM11/14/01

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"mike" <adr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:60d237b6.01111...@posting.google.com...

Hey DeSantis,
Newtek has a feature suggestion forum if you want to
contribute your suggestions.
http://www.newtek.com/community/discus/nest.html
Look under Lightwave3D/Feature Requests.

It might also be a decent place to get some MD tips.

Alex

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Nov 14, 2001, 11:59:01 AM11/14/01

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Just to chime in here - YES! Personally, I think MD is completely
useless. (Admittedly, I've not used cloth sims in any other package,
so I don't know if they're all crap, or if it's just this one...) I
was all excited in 6(whatever) when it finally became integrated,
because I do a lot of still product shots - afghans and towels and the
like, mostly draped over chairs, etc for catalogs. I've yet to get MD
to do a damned thing except either crumple the object into a wad, or
drop straight through the so-called collision object like it wasn't
even there. It's just rather infuriating. It's almost like the plug
was designed to work only with the tutorials, and even then, the work
is half-assed. I love LW, don't get me wrong, but it really *is*
easier to just add bones the object and deform it by hand. I mean, at
one point, I had to drape a throw over a rocking chair. I ended up
animating the rocking chair to move up through the floor and crash
into the rug. It almost worked. With a lot of Photoshop, I got
passable results.

Anyway, just feeding the rant. *whew* Feel better already.

-alex

Skeleton Man

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Nov 14, 2001, 12:25:02 PM11/14/01

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I don't get you guys? How much time have you spent with the damn thing?!

If MD is anything it's too easy! They give you presets, a simple panel to
organize things... what more do you want?

You want the software to do everything for... ok just kidding

Please, tell some specifics of your problems. I have encountered nothing
like any of the examples mentioned here. Dropping a throw on a chair would
be the easiest thing to do. I hope you guys aren't working with super dense
meshes etc. About two days ago I did a layered Motion designer test, pants,
shirt on top of that, coat on top of that... with no trouble at all...

Let's hear some settings, how is it setup? etc. I have not encountered any
trouble with the system and it is leagues above MD1 or Maya cloth in my
experience with the other systems.

--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
ORIGINAL ANIMATION ON DVD!!!

<mdesignsatmindpsringdotcom (Alex)> wrote in message
news:3bf2a160...@news.mindspring.com...

Alex

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Nov 14, 2001, 1:32:41 PM11/14/01

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On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:25:02 -0800, "Skeleton Man"
<skel...@planetbone.com> wrote:

>I don't get you guys? How much time have you spent with the damn thing?!
>
>If MD is anything it's too easy! They give you presets, a simple panel to
>organize things... what more do you want?
>
>You want the software to do everything for... ok just kidding
>
>Please, tell some specifics of your problems. I have encountered nothing
>like any of the examples mentioned here. Dropping a throw on a chair would
>be the easiest thing to do. I hope you guys aren't working with super dense
>meshes etc. About two days ago I did a layered Motion designer test, pants,
>shirt on top of that, coat on top of that... with no trouble at all...
>
>Let's hear some settings, how is it setup? etc. I have not encountered any
>trouble with the system and it is leagues above MD1 or Maya cloth in my
>experience with the other systems.
>
>--
>Skeleton Man
>http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
>ORIGINAL ANIMATION ON DVD!!!
>

I can tell you that in my scene (the afghan on the rocking chair,
specifically), the rocking chair is 2759 points, the afghan is 19.
Thery're both subdiv's, though I've tried them after freezing, too.
I've even built way low poly proxy objects to stand in for the the
calculations. I've set the subdiv order to first, after deformations
and last. With a simple gravity of -2y, collision detection turned
on, the afghan as the target and the rocking chair as the collision
object, it rarely goes right. Any time the skin thickness is set to
anything under (and most of the time left at the default) 10 cm, it's
inevitable that the rocking chair back will poke through the afghan,
while the portion of the afghan that hits the seat either floats or
goes through, too. And if the 10cm skin thickness was consistant
enough to allow you to move the dforemed object down 9 cm without the
collision object poking through, that'd be fine. Unfortunately, the
calculations aren't that good. And I've tried the presets and I've
tried kicking around with custom settings. It just doesn't seem to
work in my case. I figure it's got to be something simple. but after
quite a time of noodling with settings, one would figure that I could
hit the right combination somewhere. Right?

Of course, there's also the fact that elastic bodied in MD (as I
understand it) never come to a complete rest - they just jiggle, so
the folds are oftentimes ... well, ugly. Anyway, any suggestions you
can offer would be apreciated and tried almost immediately.

-alex

Skeleton Man

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Nov 15, 2001, 3:25:21 AM11/15/01

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That will work. Keep in mind that collision is based on points on the target vs. polys on the collision object. If the cloth is two low res you can imagine two points passing right over an edge on the collision object. The arm will be halfway though it before it hits something.

Also gravity setting can chnage things a lot. Someone mentioned having gravity set to -2y in one post. -1y is the most you should ever use. (this is not clear due to workding since it seems to imply gravity is in meters/sec squared... gravity is actually measured in G's - this means -1y = -9.8 m/s2)

--
Skeleton Man
http://users.lvcm.com/artfx
ORIGINAL ANIMATION ON DVD!!!

<uncomm...@uncommongrafx.com> wrote in message news:3BF327D0...@uncommongrafx.com...
Skeleton Man,
I have been successful with MD; but for sure, I have not had good luck getting clothing to stay on my character. I haven't played with it in a while but would willingly go back into it to figure it out.
Basically, my clothes slid off after a while. I lightened the weight of the material, which helped, but arm movements and the like came through the clothe.
I can put together an example tomorrow if that would assist.
I appreciate you being around here, willing to assist and all.
Thanks,
Robert Wilson
UnCommon Grafx

Brizon

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Nov 15, 2001, 7:00:59 AM11/15/01

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It's a classic case of not giving it a chance, at first I didn't understand
MD either and slammed it more than these guys, then I actually took time out
to really make an effort learning how to use it, and frankly I don't see
anything that wrong about it now, sure could be better, so could everything
in the world but with a bit of effort it does what I want it to do. I guess
it might not be the easiest tool for newbies but the manual does explain it
well enough, yeah the discriptions are short, but they get to the point
"this setting does this, if you do this it acts more like this, if you do
that it acts more like that" doesn't beat about the bush and then its just
logic to put them all together to get a material of a certain kind. I've
also found a lot depends on how a model is made, a flat subdivided plane
with no thickness will act more like a thin piece of silk regardless of what
its "supposed" to be, so for clothing I'd go about modeling it more like
clothing, with thickness to it, stitching (ok just closer together polys for
the stitching but you get the idea) then MD has an easier time getting the
right effect, have to disagree on the polycount though, I've always got
scrappy results with low poly objects, haven't tried superhigh poly objects
yet though.. probably MD calculating suicide :-)

--

-------
BriZon

Co-Founder & Director of VFX DarkICE fx.
===================/\===================
www.lexxpark.co.uk || www.darkicefx.co.uk
Work: +44 (0) 771 9859450 7am - 5pm GMT
Home: +44 (0) 786 6039358 5pm - 7am GMT
W: bri...@darkicefx.co.uk
H: ch...@biomechanics.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 124947563 || MSN: Lexxpark
===================\/===================

Skeleton Man <skel...@planetbone.com> wrote in message
news:tv5b3r6...@corp.supernews.com...

need4speed

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Nov 18, 2001, 4:59:55 PM11/18/01

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>I have been successful with MD; but for sure, I have not had good luck getting clothing to stay on my >character. I haven't played with it in a while but would willingly go back into it to figure it out.
>Basically, my clothes slid off after a while. I lightened the weight of the material, which helped, but arm >movements and the like came through the clothe.

Having just had LW7 (and never 6.x or even 5.6) for a couple of months, I recently decided to test MD out myself with a female character and gave her a skirt. Very simply, it worked very well. I may have had the skirt a bit too complex for my slow old PIII 500Mhz, but it looked very nice.

As for falling off the character, I simply made the skirt 2 surfaces and told one surface around her tight narrow waist to be non-moving and the rest could flow as it needed. All of the other tests I did (only a few) worked quite well.

I'm far from being an expert on it, but it does just take some time and looking at the finished objects to understand it a bit better. Heck, I'm still on the thrilled side of having the whole thing :)

Andrew

CG Focus

http://www.cgfocus.com

Atomic Skull

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Nov 19, 2001, 2:51:18 PM11/19/01

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>
>Just to chime in here - YES! Personally, I think MD is completely
>useless. (Admittedly, I've not used cloth sims in any other package,
>so I don't know if they're all crap, or if it's just this one...) I
>was all excited in 6(whatever) when it finally became integrated,

You mean you just don't understand how to use it...

--
-=Atomic Skull=-
------------------------------------------------
See my 3-D anime character page
http://members.home.net/atomicskull/index.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

Dave Adams

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Nov 19, 2001, 3:40:17 PM11/19/01

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"Atomic Skull" <atomi...@home.net> wrote in message
news:WodK7.32224$RG1.15...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...

>
> >
> >Just to chime in here - YES! Personally, I think MD is completely
> >useless. (Admittedly, I've not used cloth sims in any other package,
> >so I don't know if they're all crap, or if it's just this one...) I
> >was all excited in 6(whatever) when it finally became integrated,
>
>
> You mean you just don't understand how to use it...
>
> --
> -=Atomic Skull=-

Exactly.

Nov 20, 2001, 11:56:27 AM11/20/01

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"Brizon" <Bri...@darkicefxiaboutasfunnyasastevemartinsketch.co.uk> wrote in message news:9tdmh5$267$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> hehe
>

haha

Alex

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Nov 20, 2001, 12:57:48 PM11/20/01

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On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:51:18 GMT, atomi...@home.net (Atomic Skull)
wrote:

(Admittedly, I've not used cloth sims in any other package,
>>so I don't know if they're all crap, or if it's just this one...)

In retrospect, this comment was a bit harsher than I'd thought when I
typed it. No more posting before the third cup of coffee for me...

> You mean you just don't understand how to use it...
>
>--
> -=Atomic Skull=-
> ------------------------------------------------
> See my 3-D anime character page
> http://members.home.net/atomicskull/index.htm
> -------------------------------------------------------
>

Very probably true. I've done the tutorials, but it's the stuff that
I set up myself that doesn't quite work. Think I'm gonna take this
long weekend and Skeleton Man's post (btw - thanks for that, if you're
reading) and do nothing but figure this puppy out. Wish me luck.

-alex

Dave Adams

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Nov 20, 2001, 4:45:24 PM11/20/01

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<mdesignsatmindpsringdotcom (Alex)> wrote in message

news:3bfa98de...@news.mindspring.com...

> >
> Very probably true. I've done the tutorials, but it's the stuff that
> I set up myself that doesn't quite work. Think I'm gonna take this
> long weekend and Skeleton Man's post (btw - thanks for that, if you're
> reading) and do nothing but figure this puppy out. Wish me luck.
>
> -alex

Good luck! That's the spirit man!

Edward Wright

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Nov 20, 2001, 5:03:46 PM11/20/01

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"Brizon" <Bri...@darkicefxiaboutasfunnyasastevemartinsketch.co.uk> wrote in message news:<9tdmh4$267$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...

> It does, treat it right and give it logically build objects (ie: build it
> like a skirt, it'll act like a skirt.) To simulate and it'll do a great job.

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Nov 21, 2001, 9:21:24 AM11/21/01

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Nobody kisses my backside or sucks up to me and I'll happily disagree if I
feel I have good reason to, if someone gives a good argument against what I
think and proves my way of thinking wrong then I'll shut up, as for Max I've
never once heard a good enough reason to warrant me rethinking my views on
it. Max is and always will be crap and I stand by that, and yes I do know
how to use it, granted, Maya, Lightwave, Softimage; they could all be
better, but they've got the basics right, a simple thing should be simple to
do, not overly complex as Max is, sure, its got some nice features and the
odd plugin that would be neat to have for Lightwave, and the games industry
has taken it onboard as its flagship 3D app, but lets be honest, Max isn't
what it could be, in their attempt to pull away from the normal way of doing
things the makers came up with a way of working that is just not very user
friendly, even for a professional. It has options in queer places, its
confusing to understand, users are faced instantly with far too many
options, most of which are unusable at that point unless the user does
something else first, but faced with all those extra options straight off
will just cause confusion, its use of icons does nothing for making it
simpler to use, its cumbersome, no wonder people who move onto Lightwave
from Max have a hard time understanding the program, their faced suddenly
with sensibly named tools, logical workflow (to a point;-) and a lack of
lame icons. Now I'm not saying Lightwave is perfect, as great a program as
it might be its got a long way to go before its perfect, its got problems of
its own, but it has never been and never could be as lame to use as Max. To
me Max has always been since version 1, an expensive plaything, of the
Console generation. All hype and nothing else. More a toy than a
professional program, the makers must have some clue how bad it really is,
or why else would they make it so difficult to offload to some other poor
sap once you've bought it. Though saying that, most of the time people who
straight away accuse something of being crap -don't- know how to use it
correctly, I've done it before, I'm sure many have done it before excluding
you of course Geoff since you like to be excused from everything I say.
Honestly Geoff, you are beginning to sound like the kid in the school yard
who's sat in the corner sulking cause he's not invited to play in Dave's
gang. Well boo hoo, get over it, your supposed to be an Adult. Nobody here
is attacked for negative comments if they back them up with sensible
reasoning, in which case it'll end up being a discussion about whatever it
is, for example recent Monsters Inc. or Final Fantasy threads, a few would
say they hated both movies, they gave sound reasons, the people you
insinuate do the attacking may have disagreed or may have agreed, but the
point is they'd give sensible reasoning themselves, and so on, no problems
until someone takes some comment too seriously, or someone came along and
says something or other is crap really crap and should be avoided but
without any reason for that, people will obviously ask why they think that.
Or someone doesn't see a smiley at the end of a post and gets into a tizz
over it at which point everyone starts fighting.

Sorry to everyone for the Rant, had to get that off my chest
Do you wish to be excluded from the apology also Geoff? :-P

--

Sincerely

C. BriZon

=========================================
Freelance Biomechanic + Surrealist Artist
Founder & Director of VFX: DarkICE fx Ltd
www.lexxpark.co.uk -- www.darkicefx.co.uk
Work: SMS +44 (0) 771 9859450 9am/5pm GMT
Home: SMS +44 (0) 786 6039358 5pm/9am GMT
Work mail: bri...@darkicefx.co.uk
Home mail: ch...@biomechanics.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 124947563 ------------ MSN: Lexxpark
=========================================

Geoff (LondonUK) <gsimmonds@[NOSPAM]sasdesign.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9tg5ip$m28$1...@reader-00.news.insnet.cw.net...

mitch

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Nov 21, 2001, 9:51:54 AM11/21/01

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On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 14:21:24 -0000, "Brizon"
<Bri...@darkicefxiaboutasfunnyasastevemartinsketch.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

Heh

Geoff (LondonUK)

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Nov 21, 2001, 10:10:38 AM11/21/01

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Well well, (right on queue) the gothboy writes....Are you learning about
paragraphs at school? You should try them, it makes what you write (in a
very minor way) a little more interesting.

Still following the herd I see Brizon, leaping to the defence of people you
probably think might give you a job in the future, fellating egos here and
there with replies to "witty" posts with a sycophantic "lol!" and "hehe".
Lets not forget about when you join in with the pack whenever possible to
have a go at someone like Jin as well right?

It's the biggest joke when you try to get a point across.....You should have
a look at some of the crap you've been writing over the last year.....Google
has it all recorded for posterity for the world to see what a little small
minded little prick you are. Remember advocating wiping out the whole of the
Middle East? Wanting millions of people to find out what it's like to burn
to death. Stains like that never wear off.....As if you could ever speak
with any credibility.

I see a lot of development time has gone into your "website", must be all
those people you "employ", cos you are an "employer" right? Were you saying
this an attempt to get some lips on *your* backside for a change?

Nice try anyway.

Now go back to your room and listen to your goth music or whatever it is you
do up there.

"Brizon" <Bri...@darkicefxiaboutasfunnyasastevemartinsketch.co.uk> wrote in
message news:9tgdmd$han$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

Dave Adams

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Nov 21, 2001, 2:30:17 PM11/21/01

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"Tesselator" <jimb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:9tg32o$5lj$1...@catv02.starcat.ne.jp...

Yeah...the unbreakable copy protection guy too.
Bwaa ha ha.

Tesselator

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Nov 21, 2001, 10:54:42 PM11/21/01

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hehe

> hoho

> > haha

Tesselator

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Nov 21, 2001, 11:28:25 PM11/21/01

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"Dave Adams" <LightwaveDave*@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:dhTK7.249$J27.27...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...

Hey! Quit giving away my secrets!

Tesselator

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Nov 21, 2001, 11:22:11 PM11/21/01

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> " Also true for the guy who said Maya Cloth sucks..."
>
> That would be me, kind of....Although I didnt use such inflammatory
> language.

I know, I did. O :-)

> Well, maybe it's got better since I last (tried to) use it. But I object to
> the notion that just because you think something isn't very good it's
> automatically because you don't know how to use it properly.

True...

> In which case, the same has to be applied to other software apps no? Max
> isn't rubbish, it's *great* right? I just don't know how to use it properly.

Very true! I've seen some video tapes made by "Maxperts" that are awesome!
Obviously, you can't gain that kind of market share with crap.

[ Shutup Briz... O :-) ]

I think the guys putting it down are doing so as kind of a running joke.
2 of the 3 people who put it down the most have also recently purchased
it if that tells you anything. ;)

[ Shutup Briz... O :-) ]

> Seems like it's a crime to state a negative point of view around here,

Yeah, it's pretty sad to be negative in an industry where there's so
much to be positive about. I'm constantly stoked!

> unless you're one of a few people who don't get criticised because people
> are too busy kissing your backside until it's crispy white.

Yeah but the buttkissers get no respect. not even from those they are
kissing up to. But I almost never see any. There's no advantage to it
here. Here you are judged by your tallents and abilities. Maybe some
work in environments were brown-noseing is advantageous but I don't
see it carring over to the news group.

> In which case you get congratulated for your wit.

I donno... I think you're reading more than's there. I don't see much
kissing in the first place and when I do I read it more like a genuine
effort to get along and make friends. Ya gotta admit there a hell of a
lot more people takeing those BOLD stances out on a limb than there are
kissing up for a position in que for something thst will never happen.

Brizon

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Nov 21, 2001, 8:53:05 PM11/21/01

to

Ooh before I forget, cheers for the name Goth-Boy, after talking to a few
guys here, we now have a name for our main character in our first short
film, so you'll be happy to know you've had a part in making me even richer,
thanks Geoff, much appreciate your assistance :-)

..........and now the main feature, Briz gets nasty hehe

Pot calling the Kettle black don't you think Geoff?, afterall your well
known for jumping into threads, attacking people with your snide remarks on
many occasion, why not use your little google search to prove that huh?. I
know we had a set to some time ago because you took offence to something I
said, the something in question nobody else seemed to care about, which I
also publicly apologised for just for little sensitive you, since
then I have on quite a few occasions tried to be civil with you, but nope
you just weren't having it, there's taking things seriously Geoff and then
there's taking things too seriously, you'll do yourself an injury getting so
worked up. But well you just seem to want to have a problem with me, which
is exactly that, your problem, not mine, if you don't like me, hard luck.
Course lets not forget that whenever your shown up for the fool you are you
bleet and act like your the victim. Oh and yeah, I did say bomb the bastards
for what they did, and I still stand by it, oh look, surprise surprise the
majority thought that was the best thing to do too and they went and did it,
it must feel great in your little world Geoff being the only person who's
ever right while the rest of the planet is wrong minus your Taliban friends,
who might I add would have shot you for your beliefs years ago, your parents
must be soo proud of their son Geoff, Mr cry like a baby if things don't go
his way. As for your personal attack on me, kid, atleast try and make it
hurt, instead of giving me a good chuckle at your expense, I've had better
people than you use my punctuation and spelling against me, atleast try,
hell Gordon put up a better fight than you and he had just about everyone
against him. Since you've got a problem with me, come out and say so, your
doing nothing for your image acting like the poor victim, I thought you
had balls Geoff, or did your boyfriend prefer you without? See Geoff, I can
be nasty too, now if you wanna start something make it worthwhile or don't
bother and crawl back to your pansy pit in Soho. As for Jin, I only ever
have a problem with the weird monthly OT posts when they go way off topic
and never make any sense to begin with, if you actually bother to read the
posts here you'd see that I don't have a problem with Jin as a person and
I've never taken my gripes into other conversations, we've replied to each
others posts and been perfectly fine with each other, regardless how we
might conduct ourselves in the OT threads, I've only once actually asked him
to shut up after a very long and infuriating thread which I had posted
replies to aswell and so was partly to blame, in which case for your
information I also apologised for being rude asking him to shut up like that
a little while
after. As for my "hehe" replies, so now are you telling me I can't laugh at
something that I find funny? Is this another attempt of yours to get
everyone thinking your way, I wasn't aware you'd elected yourself "leader of
the Newsgroup" should we all drop to our knee's and pray to our new god? or
would that be just too tempting for you?. Honestly, you have a major problem
with anyone taking sides on this NG, which is ironic really considering your
beef was about people not being able to have a negative thought here, and
yet your the first one to scream bloody murder if someone says anything you
don't like, and strangely its always because they don't take your side,
doesn't that strike you as interesting Geoff, the majority don't agree with
you? Doesn't that perhaps give you a clue as to how your seen on this NG,
you obviously sit there waiting for a chance to start a fight, popping your
little comments in where ever you can until someone bites and gives you a
chance to let off a barrage of nonsensical replies in some vain attempt to
hurt people's feelings, you take things far too seriously, where as others
can argue and bitch about each other in one thread until we're blue in the
face, they'll be perfectly civil in another, in person, nobody here would
have a problem with anyone else, apart from you, always the exception to the
rule aren't you, always wanting to be different, to be the odd one out, you
would still be holding a grudge and sit at the corner table holding your
pint glaring at everyone over the head, like a little, well like a little
troll actually. So Geoff, the next time you try and cause a fight, get your
facts straight and stop contradicting yourself with your own arguments, it
makes taking you seriously very difficult. As for trying to hurt me by
calling me Gothboy, oh puh-leeease I used to be a fan of Lexx, if you had
any brains you'd know hardcore fans of that show are often Gothic in nature
or Bi-sexual or Wiccan or fans of blood letting or Vampirism, I've been to
underground clubs that would terrify you into pissing down your leg, calling
me a
Gothboy is more likely to be seen as a compliment than an insult, in which
case awww I'm touched, such a sweet thing to say to me Geoff, how lovely of
you. And here I was thinking you were just a jealous arsehole with nothing
better to do with his time but hate the world and anything that doesn't
comply to his way of thinking, maybe if I buy you a bunch of posies you'll
forgive me for being so rude. Hmm, I kinda like the nick Goth-Boy though,
cheers, I wonder what I could call you, the possibilities are endless with
that one. Oops no paragraphs either, that must really get your back up. Oh
and btw, you have an unhealthy fascination
with backsides and references to kissing butt cheek, your preference might
be kissing some guys ass but you don't have to force your point down other
people's throats... no pun intended of course.

On a lighter note, if your going to the LW event in Uxbridge next Wednesday,
perhaps I'll see you there, and maybe we might try to get along like adults
yes? Or will you insist on being like this in person too?
--

Sincerely

C. BriZon

=========================================
Freelance Biomechanic + Surrealist Artist
Founder & Director of VFX: DarkICE fx Ltd
www.lexxpark.co.uk -- www.darkicefx.co.uk
Work: SMS +44 (0) 771 9859450 9am/5pm GMT
Home: SMS +44 (0) 786 6039358 5pm/9am GMT
Work mail: bri...@darkicefx.co.uk
Home mail: ch...@biomechanics.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 124947563 ------------ MSN: Lexxpark
=========================================

Geoff (LondonUK) <gsimmonds@[NOSPAM]sasdesign.co.uk> wrote in message

news:9tgg29$n9m$1...@reader-00.news.insnet.cw.net...

Brizon

unread,

Nov 22, 2001, 4:57:49 AM11/22/01

to

meee? as if I would ;-)

--

Sincerely

C. BriZon

=========================================
Freelance Biomechanic + Surrealist Artist
Founder & Director of VFX: DarkICE fx Ltd
www.lexxpark.co.uk -- www.darkicefx.co.uk
Work: SMS +44 (0) 771 9859450 9am/5pm GMT
Home: SMS +44 (0) 786 6039358 5pm/9am GMT
Work mail: bri...@darkicefx.co.uk
Home mail: ch...@biomechanics.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 124947563 ------------ MSN: Lexxpark
=========================================

Tesselator <jimb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:9thugo$qnj$1...@catv02.starcat.ne.jp...

Tesselator

unread,

Nov 22, 2001, 9:05:01 AM11/22/01

to

> meee? as if I would ;-)

Hehehe... you mean you have seen virtue in Max now?

Brizon

unread,

Nov 22, 2001, 2:18:03 PM11/22/01

to

is that some kind of plugin?

;-)

I will say though I did like 3D studio 4 a lot, even if it was only Dos at
the time, I was forced to learn it within a week and was quite impressed,
course that might have been cause some agency woman thought what I'd done in
it were photo's (how she thought that I'll never know.. 256 grayscale
320x240 rather bland images of a lobby in some game heh) though back then
(mid 93) I don't think there was much else to choose from, and since thats
the only 3D program they had at the place I was at I didn't have much
choice. I did get a few funny looks when I mentioned Real3D to them though
:-) I think if Max had kept closer to 3DS I just might have gone that way,
but I went with LW in the end and glad I did

I still don't like Max though :-P

--

Sincerely

C. BriZon

=========================================
Freelance Biomechanic + Surrealist Artist
Founder & Director of VFX: DarkICE fx Ltd
www.lexxpark.co.uk -- www.darkicefx.co.uk
Work: SMS +44 (0) 771 9859450 9am/5pm GMT
Home: SMS +44 (0) 786 6039358 5pm/9am GMT
Work mail: bri...@darkicefx.co.uk
Home mail: ch...@biomechanics.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 124947563 ------------ MSN: Lexxpark
=========================================

Tesselator <jimb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:9tj0lg$afp$1...@catv02.starcat.ne.jp...

Dave Adams

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 9:48:55 AM11/23/01

to

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff (LondonUK)" <gsimmonds@[NOSPAM]sasdesign.co.uk>

> " Also true for the guy who said Maya Cloth sucks..."
>
> That would be me, kind of....Although I didnt use such inflammatory
> language.
> Well, maybe it's got better since I last (tried to) use it. But I object
to
> the notion that just because you think something isn't very good it's
> automatically because you don't know how to use it properly.
> In which case, the same has to be applied to other software apps no? Max
> isn't rubbish, it's *great* right? I just don't know how to use it
properly.

I've seen some pretty amazing stuff done in Max. It's usually
about the artists and their abilities. In the case of "the notion that

just because you think something isn't very good it's automatically

because you don't know how to use it properly" , I don't see that
happening very often, although it does seem to follow Motion Desiger
around more than other features. I guess the real test is whether others
have made good use of it while part of the crowd yells that it "sucks".
I have noticed that when people say something like "I don't think this
feature is very good" they get a completely different reaction then when
they
vent bile like "IT SUCKS! IT'S UNUSABLE!"

> Seems like it's a crime to state a negative point of view around here,
> unless you're one of a few people who don't get criticised because people
> are too busy kissing your backside until it's crispy white.

Judging from your reply it might be said that it seems like a crime to
point out the usefulness and capabilities of a feature after it's been
maligned
by someone who didn't invest the time to learn it. Having learned the
feature, one opens themselves to playground insults like "unless you're one

of a few people who don't get criticised because people are too busy kissing

your backside until it's crispy white", which seems highly overwrought
for a darn public software newsgroup.

Dave Adams

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 9:50:44 AM11/23/01

to

"Brizon" <Bri...@darkicefxiaboutasfunnyasastevemartinsketch.co.uk> wrote in
message news:9tlbhj$6o1$4...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

> is that some kind of plugin?
>
> ;-)
>
> I will say though I did like 3D studio 4 a lot, even if it was only Dos at
> the time, I was forced to learn it within a week and was quite impressed,
> course that might have been cause some agency woman thought what I'd done
in
> it were photo's (how she thought that I'll never know.. 256 grayscale
> 320x240 rather bland images of a lobby in some game heh) though back then
> (mid 93) I don't think there was much else to choose from, and since thats
> the only 3D program they had at the place I was at I didn't have much
> choice. I did get a few funny looks when I mentioned Real3D to them though
> :-) I think if Max had kept closer to 3DS I just might have gone that way,
> but I went with LW in the end and glad I did
>
>
> I still don't like Max though :-P
>

I stopped at Blizzard's booth at Siggraph and man when you see
the cinematics they did there in Max, you have to give it it's due.
They did some amazing stuff with it.

Brizon

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 10:16:41 AM11/23/01

to

I haven't seen Blizzards other games, I waste too much of my life with
Starcraft as it is, I thought the cut scenes in that were pretty neat, I
think the only thing I didn't like about them were the explosions, but being
an old game now I guess they only had Max v1 to work with and what was it,
combustion? I think it was called for the explosion effects, infact those
same explosions also let down season 3 of Lexx's effects too, now if they'd
used LW...... ;-)

--

Sincerely

C. BriZon

=========================================
Freelance Biomechanic + Surrealist Artist
Founder & Director of VFX: DarkICE fx Ltd
www.lexxpark.co.uk -- www.darkicefx.co.uk
Work: SMS +44 (0) 771 9859450 9am/5pm GMT
Home: SMS +44 (0) 786 6039358 5pm/9am GMT
Work mail: bri...@darkicefx.co.uk
Home mail: ch...@biomechanics.fsnet.co.uk
ICQ: 124947563 ------------ MSN: Lexxpark
=========================================

Dave Adams <LightwaveDave*@prodigy.net> wrote in message

news:8ntL7.29$jE2.9...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

Geoff (LondonUK)

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 10:20:56 AM11/23/01

to

> I've seen some pretty amazing stuff done in Max. It's usually
> about the artists and their abilities. In the case of "the notion that
> just because you think something isn't very good it's automatically
> because you don't know how to use it properly" , I don't see that
> happening very often, although it does seem to follow Motion Desiger
> around more than other features. I guess the real test is whether others
> have made good use of it while part of the crowd yells that it "sucks".
> I have noticed that when people say something like "I don't think this
> feature is very good" they get a completely different reaction then when
> they
> vent bile like "IT SUCKS! IT'S UNUSABLE!"

Yup, that's why I *didn't* say it sucked, I just said it was unsatisfactory
in my view and didn't do the job properly.....It always looks kind of
rubbery and stretchy, rather than like real cloth.

>
> > Seems like it's a crime to state a negative point of view around here,
> > unless you're one of a few people who don't get criticised because
people
> > are too busy kissing your backside until it's crispy white.
>
> Judging from your reply it might be said that it seems like a crime to
> point out the usefulness and capabilities of a feature after it's been
> maligned
> by someone who didn't invest the time to learn it. Having learned the
> feature, one opens themselves to playground insults like "unless you're
one
> of a few people who don't get criticised because people are too busy
kissing
> your backside until it's crispy white", which seems highly overwrought
> for a darn public software newsgroup.

No, I wasn't referring to Skeleton Man's very helpful contributions to the
thread, I was referring to the rather trite "In other words you don't know
how to use it" remark, which then spawned lot's of "here here" type
noises......I didn't think it was helpful. Not only that, it lead to my
comments being included and magnified (I didn't say anything
sucked).....That's when I started to feel "overwrought" as you put it.

I was actually almost able to feel Mike's pain went he originally posted
this, not to mention having a slight chuckle at the venting that was
happening as I know what it feels like to hit a brick wall, to hit that
button and have your cloth turn into Nuked Polys that don't look like
anything but a mess.

Anyway, I really am bored of this thread, even these little spats that I get
into from time to time.....I really need to let my work do the talking some
more, and that's the truth......In a couple of months time there should be
something for everyone here who desires, to look at and say:

"Man, that animated short Geoff did really sucked!"

There's no cloth simulation in it though so you'll have to find other things
to pick at instead..

>
>
>

Dave Adams

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 11:04:07 AM11/23/01

to

"Geoff (LondonUK)" <gsimmonds@[NOSPAM]sasdesign.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9tlpdg$gmv$1...@reader-00.news.insnet.cw.net...

>
> No, I wasn't referring to Skeleton Man's very helpful contributions to the
> thread, I was referring to the rather trite "In other words you don't know
> how to use it" remark, which then spawned lot's of "here here" type
> noises......I didn't think it was helpful. Not only that, it lead to my
> comments being included and magnified (I didn't say anything
> sucked).....That's when I started to feel "overwrought" as you put it.

That "rather trite" as you put it, remark was more on the money
than the "it's useless" comments. Probably why it garnered the
apparently offensive "here heres". I think the truth is always more
helpful than a cheap shot done out of frustration. I don't understand
the angst really. I understand the frustration when you struggle with
an aspect of the software. What I don't understand is the very
public venting and mischaracterization of the software's capabilities.
When I need to vent vicious bile (not pointing to any particular comment
just in general) I try not to do it in public, this isn't Romper Room, it's
supposed to be an adult forum of software users.

> Anyway, I really am bored of this thread, even these little spats that I
get
> into from time to time.....I really need to let my work do the talking
some
> more, and that's the truth......In a couple of months time there should be
> something for everyone here who desires, to look at and say:
> "Man, that animated short Geoff did really sucked!"
> There's no cloth simulation in it though so you'll have to find other
things
> to pick at instead..

With that attitude you can only create great stuff!
(:-D

Geoff (LondonUK)

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 11:57:19 AM11/23/01

to

> That "rather trite" as you put it, remark was more on the money
> than the "it's useless" comments.

We disagree, let's just leave it at that......I've got to get on.

Dave Adams

unread,

Nov 23, 2001, 11:58:57 AM11/23/01

to

"Geoff (LondonUK)" <gsimmonds@[NOSPAM]sasdesign.co.uk> wrote in message

news:9tlv28$hb6$1...@reader-00.news.insnet.cw.net...

>
> > That "rather trite" as you put it, remark was more on the money
> > than the "it's useless" comments.
>
> We disagree, let's just leave it at that......I've got to get on.
>

No problem, as it would difficult to convince me that calling something
useless that people find useful is in any way accurate. Have a good one.

Alexander Ibrahim

unread,

Nov 27, 2001, 3:01:12 AM11/27/01

to

Damn I missed it....I always miss the good stuff<sigh>

--
Alexander Ibrahim
http://www.zenera.com
Wanna quote me ?
http://www.zenera.com/aibrahim/quoteme.html
-------
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"Dave Adams" <LightwaveDave*@prodigy.net> wrote in message

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