OpenGL and S3's Virge chip

[Elis Pomales]

Hi!

Does anyone know if there will in fact be an OpenGL implementation on
the S3Virge chip? S3's web pages all make it sound as though they support
OpenGL? Anyone know for a fact? If its available anyone know how I can get
it?

Thanks,
Elis Pomales

[Mark K Vallevand]

It seems to be a myth at this point. The closest thing to a
commitment to OpenGL is from Number Nine. The are 'evalutating'
APIs like OpenGL for their Virge-based adapters.

--
Regards.
Mark K Vallevand mar...@rsvl.unisys.com
(c)"Live fats. Die yo gnu."

[er...@gis.net]

In article <32DA5A...@rsvl.unisys.com>,

mar...@rsvl.unisys.com wrote:
>
> Elis Pomales wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Does anyone know if there will in fact be an OpenGL implementation on
> > the S3Virge chip? S3's web pages all make it sound as though they support
> > OpenGL? Anyone know for a fact? If its available anyone know how I can get
> > it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Elis Pomales
>
> It seems to be a myth at this point. The closest thing to a
> commitment to OpenGL is from Number Nine. The are 'evalutating'
> APIs like OpenGL for their Virge-based adapters.

No myth. Diamond is working on OpenGL drivers for their Stealth 3D boards.
Check their website for more info.
As for how it will run GLQuake, I'm not expecting much, especially since
whatever it does in hardware with the Virge is lacking, imagine how slow it will
be in software...Ugh.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

[Raoul Said]

Their OpenGL support is a lie -- specifically the STB Velocity 3D. I
believe the ATI 3D Pro Turbo PC2TV is the same exact setup. Both of these
boards boast OpenGL support. If you aren't aware of their marketing
practices you could get burned. Here is how it works:

They claim on the boxes of the STB Velocity 3D (S3 Virge VX) and ATI 3D Pro
Turbo PC2TV (Rage 2) that OpenGL is supported under Windows NT. If you
install these cards and run anything that can report which driver is
running (a few demos will do this, also samples from the OpenGL SuperBible
do this) you will find that the generic GDI renderer is running. Aparently
they don't directly support OpenGL. They make their claim based on the
fact that Microsoft will someday place OpenGL on top of Direct3D. At that
point their card will support OpenGL! Hard to believe but true.

Hopefully the 3DFX Rush boards will appear soon so we won't have to put up
with this BS.

Raoul Said

Elis Pomales <el...@ziplink.net> wrote in article
<01bbfffe$6abbf6e0$de68c4d0@elishome>...

[Mark K Vallevand]

er...@gis.net wrote:
>
> In article <32DA5A...@rsvl.unisys.com>,
> mar...@rsvl.unisys.com wrote:
> >
> > Elis Pomales wrote:
> > >

> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Does anyone know if there will in fact be an OpenGL implementation on
> > > the S3Virge chip? S3's web pages all make it sound as though they support
> > > OpenGL? Anyone know for a fact? If its available anyone know how I can get
> > > it?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Elis Pomales
> >

> > It seems to be a myth at this point. The closest thing to a
> > commitment to OpenGL is from Number Nine. The are 'evalutating'
> > APIs like OpenGL for their Virge-based adapters.
>
> No myth. Diamond is working on OpenGL drivers for their Stealth 3D boards.
> Check their website for more info.
> As for how it will run GLQuake, I'm not expecting much, especially since
> whatever it does in hardware with the Virge is lacking, imagine how slow it will
> be in software...Ugh.
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

OK. I checked their website. Here is a quote:

"What 3D API's will be supported by the Stealth 3D 2000?
The latest Windows 95 drivers now support Microsoft's Direct3D API.
Other 3D
API's such as OpenGL, etc. are currently being evaluated."

Maybe you are thinking of the Diamond FireGL adapter, which is
GLint-based.

I am not aware of any OpenGL for S3 Virge.

[Stephen H. Wright]

I'd like to invite anyone aware of OpenGL support claims like this to let
me know. I'm aware of several board manufacturers who are in fact working
on MCD drivers for OpenGL, but I gave this information under NDA and can't
broadcast it here without the IHV's prior approval.

Thanks for your help,

Steve Wright
OpenGL Program Manager
Microsoft Corporation

Raoul Said <rs...@wolfenet.com> wrote in article
<01bc018d$79c484f0$4e8342cf@rsp133>...

> Their OpenGL support is a lie -- specifically the STB Velocity 3D. I
> believe the ATI 3D Pro Turbo PC2TV is the same exact setup. Both of
these
> boards boast OpenGL support. If you aren't aware of their marketing
> practices you could get burned. Here is how it works:
>
> They claim on the boxes of the STB Velocity 3D (S3 Virge VX) and ATI 3D
Pro
> Turbo PC2TV (Rage 2) that OpenGL is supported under Windows NT. If you
> install these cards and run anything that can report which driver is
> running (a few demos will do this, also samples from the OpenGL
SuperBible
> do this) you will find that the generic GDI renderer is running.
Aparently
> they don't directly support OpenGL. They make their claim based on the
> fact that Microsoft will someday place OpenGL on top of Direct3D. At
that
> point their card will support OpenGL! Hard to believe but true.
>
> Hopefully the 3DFX Rush boards will appear soon so we won't have to put
up
> with this BS.
>
> Raoul Said
>
>
> Elis Pomales <el...@ziplink.net> wrote in article
> <01bbfffe$6abbf6e0$de68c4d0@elishome>...

[er...@gis.net]

In article <32DBA4...@rsvl.unisys.com>,

>
> OK. I checked their website. Here is a quote:
>
> "What 3D API's will be supported by the Stealth 3D 2000?
> The latest Windows 95 drivers now support Microsoft's Direct3D API.
> Other 3D
> API's such as OpenGL, etc. are currently being evaluated."
>
> Maybe you are thinking of the Diamond FireGL adapter, which is
> GLint-based.
>
> I am not aware of any OpenGL for S3 Virge.

No. Somewhere on their website (I think in the tech specs for the 2000) it
says "OpenGL Supported by Software" and on the PC Gamer website they reported
that Diamond is working on it.
No matter, it's still gonna suck for GLQuake. Still, for Dos Quake, I doubt
any of the other standard cards run it much faster.
I'm really waiting for the combo/3dfx cards to come out (Herc is releasing
one at $300) and hoping that that will drive the prices of the standalone 3dfx
cards to below $200.

[Mark K Vallevand]

er...@gis.net wrote:
>
> In article <32DBA4...@rsvl.unisys.com>,
> >
> > OK. I checked their website. Here is a quote:
> >
> > "What 3D API's will be supported by the Stealth 3D 2000?
> > The latest Windows 95 drivers now support Microsoft's Direct3D API.
> > Other 3D
> > API's such as OpenGL, etc. are currently being evaluated."
> >
> > Maybe you are thinking of the Diamond FireGL adapter, which is
> > GLint-based.
> >
> > I am not aware of any OpenGL for S3 Virge.
>
> No. Somewhere on their website (I think in the tech specs for the 2000) it
> says "OpenGL Supported by Software" and on the PC Gamer website they reported
> that Diamond is working on it.

That would be nice, but I searched their website, and the above quote is
the
closest thing I could find.

> No matter, it's still gonna suck for GLQuake. Still, for Dos Quake, I doubt
> any of the other standard cards run it much faster.

Why? Is the S3 Virge a real poor performer? It does run Window95 and
NT real fast.
I have no idea how fast its 3D performance is.

> I'm really waiting for the combo/3dfx cards to come out (Herc is releasing
> one at $300) and hoping that that will drive the prices of the standalone 3dfx
> cards to below $200.

*sigh* One more gizmo to buy... I think Diamond has a 3dfx-based
adapter in
the works, too. Probably Number Nine as well.

> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

--

[er...@gis.net]

In article <32DCF0...@rsvl.unisys.com>,

mar...@rsvl.unisys.com wrote:
>
> er...@gis.net wrote:
> >
> > In article <32DBA4...@rsvl.unisys.com>,
> > >
> > > OK. I checked their website. Here is a quote:
> > >
> > > "What 3D API's will be supported by the Stealth 3D 2000?
> > > The latest Windows 95 drivers now support Microsoft's Direct3D API.
> > > Other 3D
> > > API's such as OpenGL, etc. are currently being evaluated."
> > >
> > > Maybe you are thinking of the Diamond FireGL adapter, which is
> > > GLint-based.
> > >
> > > I am not aware of any OpenGL for S3 Virge.
> >
> > No. Somewhere on their website (I think in the tech specs for the 2000)
it
> > says "OpenGL Supported by Software" and on the PC Gamer website they
reported
> > that Diamond is working on it.
>
> That would be nice, but I searched their website, and the above quote is
> the
> closest thing I could find.

It's there, trust me on this. It took me a very long time to find. Like
you stated, you found another comment on the same subject, so if they changed it
from definate to "tentative" I wouldn't be suprised.

> > No matter, it's still gonna suck for GLQuake. Still, for Dos Quake, I
doubt
> > any of the other standard cards run it much faster.
>
> Why? Is the S3 Virge a real poor performer? It does run Window95 and
> NT real fast.
> I have no idea how fast its 3D performance is.

Yes, the 1st gen. Virge chips suck for 3D. You get about half what the
Rendition cards get in framerate, plus it doesn't look quite as nice. The "3D"
label Diamond tacked onto the 2000 is clearly deceptive (or maybe wishful
thinking). Still, it's one of the best Windows/Dos cards out there.
Anyways, the OpenGL drivers will be better suited to the next generation
of Virge chips like the Dx/Vx or whatever it's called.

> > I'm really waiting for the combo/3dfx cards to come out (Herc is
releasing
> > one at $300) and hoping that that will drive the prices of the standalone
3dfx
> > cards to below $200.
>
> *sigh* One more gizmo to buy... I think Diamond has a 3dfx-based
> adapter in
> the works, too. Probably Number Nine as well.

I know how you feel, being I only bought my P6 2 mos. ago. I didn't want
to get it with the 2000, but I had no choice (package deal). For gaming (3d)
the 2000 isn't the ideal card.
But then again, it's really too soon to say which 3d system will be widely
accepted. No matter what anyone says, 1 showcase game (Tomb Raider) for the
3dfx does not a standard make.
Oh yeah, the Diamond 3dfx card is the "Monster-3D" and it's been out for a
few months now. Rates at $300...

[Norman W. Schaeffler]

"Elis Pomales" <el...@ziplink.net> wrote:

>Hi!
>
> Does anyone know if there will in fact be an OpenGL implementation on
>the S3Virge chip? S3's web pages all make it sound as though they support
>OpenGL? Anyone know for a fact? If its available anyone know how I can get
>it?
>
> Thanks,
> Elis Pomales

The Hercules Terminator 3D is based on the S3 ViRGE. Hercules' web
site claims that OpenGL is supported. The make it a big point that all
major 3D API's are supported by this board. Anyone have one of these?

Norm

************

Norman W. Schaeffler --- norman.w....@vt.edu

Fluid Mechanics Laboratory Assistant to the Editor
ESM Department -- Virginia Tech ASME Journal of Fluids Engineering
(540)231-4102
http://fluids.esm.vt.edu

[Bernie Thompson]

S3's ViRGE, ViRGE DX/GX and follow-on chips will all have full OpenGL
acceleration for Win NT and Win 95 starting with Win NT SP3 and the next
release of Windows 95 ("Memphis"). S3 and Microsoft are collaborating
on this effort.

Bernie Thompson

[j...@acsu.buffalo.edu]

Thanks for that. We've been wondering what the official word was. However,
I've seen no hard facts about whether S3's ViRGE chips are actually
designed in such a way as to be an effective OpenGL accelerator. Direct3D
was the consuming focus of this chip family until just now. Can someone
from S3 sketch out what we can expect, OGL performance-wise, from the
different ViRGE chips?

Bernie Thompson <btho...@s3.com> wrote in article
<32E0C7...@s3.com>...

[Brian Hook]

> I've seen no hard facts about whether S3's ViRGE chips are actually
> designed in such a way as to be an effective OpenGL accelerator.

Fundamentally Direct3D and OpenGL rasterization capabilities are very
similar. A good Direct3D accelerator will probably make a good OpenGL
accelerator. As a matter of fact Direct3D has some interesting features
that are a little better than current OpenGL, such as a separate
specular color at each vertex, so I would imagine that at a MINIMUM a
good Direct3D accelerator would be a decent OpenGL accelerator.

When you get down to it, a texture mapped triangle is going to be the
same no matter what API is calling it.

Brian

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
+ Brian Hook, b...@wksoftware.com +
+ WK Software, http://www.wksoftware.com +
+ Consultants specializing in 3D graphics hardware and software +
+ --------------------------------------------------------------- +
+ For a list of publications on 3D graphics programming, +
+ including Direct3D, OpenGL, and book reviews: +
+ http://www.wksoftware.com/publications.html +
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[Mark K Vallevand]

Bernie Thompson wrote:
>
> S3's ViRGE, ViRGE DX/GX and follow-on chips will all have full OpenGL
> acceleration for Win NT and Win 95 starting with Win NT SP3 and the next
> release of Windows 95 ("Memphis"). S3 and Microsoft are collaborating
> on this effort.
>
> Bernie Thompson

Good news.

[Stephen H. Wright]

Bernie - Thanks for mentioning this here. S3 was one of the parties I
didn't feel at liberty to discuss in my earlier posting in this thread.

JTK - The ViRGE family was, in fact, designed with OpenGL and an earlier
Microsoft DDI in mind, namely 3DDDI. 3DDDI was an early attempt to provide
a commodity 3D hardware DDI suited to both OpenGL and 3rd party API's prior
to Microsoft's acquisition of RenderMorphics. S3 was doing work on 3DDDI
drivers in 1H'95, so this design pre-dates Direct3D.

The ViRGE is slower than some of the other commodity parts available today
at pixel-pushing, and that may limit it's value to you as either a Direct3D
or OpenGL accelerator.

Steve Wright
OpenGL Program Manager
Microsoft Corporation

j...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote in article
<01bc0890$532c5b60$0df7cd80@myrtle>...

> Thanks for that. We've been wondering what the official word was.
However,

> I've seen no hard facts about whether S3's ViRGE chips are actually

> designed in such a way as to be an effective OpenGL accelerator. Direct3D
> was the consuming focus of this chip family until just now. Can someone
> from S3 sketch out what we can expect, OGL performance-wise, from the
> different ViRGE chips?
>
> Bernie Thompson <btho...@s3.com> wrote in article
> <32E0C7...@s3.com>...

[PPGOrulZ]

Bernie Thompson wrote:
>
> S3's ViRGE, ViRGE DX/GX and follow-on chips will all have full OpenGL
> acceleration for Win NT and Win 95 starting with Win NT SP3 and the next
> release of Windows 95 ("Memphis"). S3 and Microsoft are collaborating
> on this effort.
>
> Bernie Thompson

Doh! I thought that my chip would support OpenGL for GL Quake. Doh.
Guess I just got too optimistic, thinking that what I got was actually
worth as much as I paid. Dream on. Who was I kidding? I would need to
get a $300 board like the Orchid Righteous for something like that. All
I can dream of is S3 providing a "reasonable" upgrade path from S3 ViRGE
normal to DX or GX or whatever will support it. Diamond comes through
again in the drivers department, I suppose.

-Owen