please help: entering animation field with unrelated background (long)
dbnyc
was hoping for some up-to-date answers, and specific advice for my
situation.
my bio:
i have a Bachelor of Science degree in MIS + Finance from an undergrad
Business school. by my last year of undergrad, i realized i was a
CompSci-wannabe, and wished that i had gone to the Arts + Sci division
to do a CS major instead. of course, it was "too late" by then, so i
went ahead + graduated with my Business degree.
after graduation (this was 3 years ago), i joined the workforce of
Fortune 100 Corporate America :( and became a sys admin (my first
jump to a somewhat unrelated field). i already have a glimpse of how
challenging it can be to go into a field when you don't have the
corresponding background to match it. people have often questioned
the fact that i do not have a Comp Sci degree, yet my job requires
heavy technical knowledge. i have learned a tremendous amount in the
workforce, and excel at my job... but my years as a sys admin have
completely burned me out, and i know now that this is not for me.
more specifically, the whole Corporate America thing just isn't
working out, i've been miserable in my job... so much so that it has
had a negative effect on my personal life and health.
the arts have always been a great love of mine, and i used to be very
active in music, dance, photography, drawing. all this was back in
the days of K-12 education though. my college years spent at a stuffy
B-school completely diverted me, and i am now more than a little rusty
in anything artistic.
to make a long story short(er), i've done a fair amount of research,
and of all the fields out there, animation is what i'm most interested
in... my "dream career" so to speak.
however, animation is _so far_ from my current background...
especially since i would like to approach it from an artistic route,
not the computer route. i completely understand and agree with the
necessity to have good visual and artistic talent, so i shy away from
the tech route (even though in the past i did wish i had a C.S.
degree... and perhaps jumping to the Computer Animation via tech is an
"easier" jump... but is it the best way?).
my questions:
how does someone like me go about "relearning" and/or acquiring the
artistic skills needed to do animation? art school?
if art school is the way to go, how can i possibly assemble a
portfolio which would get me into a good art school... when my current
skill level is so low due to lack of practice?
also, as far as art programs go, i'm pretty sure i don't have the
background to get into a graduate art program... but i already have a
Bachelor's degree and would not need to repeat liberal arts and basic
science requirements to get yet another Bachelor's degree. what
schools + programs would make the most sense for me?
i have financial concerns as well, as i've been independent of my
parents for 3 years and obviously would want to keep it that way. i
can't possibly burden them with the cost of a second degree, in a
field which they probably will not approve of. :( (they're
perfectly happy with my "successful" career... and don't understand
why i'm so miserable) so basically putting myself through school will
mean huge debt.
one more concern, related to the animation field in general. i
understand things are difficult in the field now, with many projects
being outsourced to other countries. does this mean the job market is
really bad now? also, being on the east coast, and my family being in
the northeast... i worry that in order to pursue animation, i will
need to relocate to California, where the bulk of the jobs seem to be.
is this necessarily true?
in any case, thanks to any of you who had the patience to hear my long
story, and your comments or advice would be greatly appreciated!
Sexy MF
>i've read a number of very old threads addressing similar topics, but
>was hoping for some up-to-date answers, and specific advice for my
>situation.
i'm not sure about this, but i think i read somewhere on the Vancouver
Film School site about somebody in the banking field joining their
animation program at age 31. Check it out, maybe it's still there -
www.vfs.com.
<SMF>
Sexy MF
(www.xnewmedia.com). and it was a pretty long time back, so you
wouldn't find the story there anymore. sorry! <heh heh> :}
<SMF>
the ARROW
their 50's.
Mature students may have more to unlearn, but they also tend to be more
disciplined.
Leanring this stuff is NOT always a game for the young.
--Ken
"Sexy MF" <sexymf...@flashmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c4684c9...@news.cis.dfn.de...
John E. M.
2. The school Full Sail is looking really serious.
www.fullsail.com
3. Get your work out to the public any way you can.
--
John E. Myers, AEC * "All things come
round to
3D Graphics/Animation * him who will but wait."
John_...@gactr.uga.edu * LONGFELLOW
http://www.gactr.uga.edu/tv/media/ * I have time. *
Anim8life
>i have a Bachelor of Science degree in MIS + Finance from an undergrad
>Business school.
Have you considered the bizness end of the FX industry? You would be utilizing
(not wasting) skills you already have....administrative type stuff...
>by my last year of undergrad, i realized i was a
>CompSci-wannabe, and wished that i had gone to the Arts + Sci division
>to do a CS major instead.
Ah yes...."I have a dream...."
becareful, the grass is always greener......
>of course, it was "too late" by then, so i
>went ahead + graduated with my Business degree.
>after graduation (this was 3 years ago), i joined the workforce of
>Fortune 100 Corporate America :( and became a sys admin (my first
>jump to a somewhat unrelated field). i already have a glimpse of how
>challenging it can be to go into a field when you don't have the
>corresponding background to match it. people have often questioned
>the fact that i do not have a Comp Sci degree, yet my job requires
>heavy technical knowledge. i have learned a tremendous amount in the
>workforce, and excel at my job... but my years as a sys admin have
>completely burned me out, and i know now that this is not for me.
>more specifically, the whole Corporate America thing just isn't
>working out, i've been miserable in my job... so much so that it has
>had a negative effect on my personal life and health.
>
Life has a way of beating you up, no matter the course you take....regrets lead
to "what-if's" and before you know it you've chased a rainbow leading back to
where you started...a vicious "circle"...
Be sure you understand the magnitude of what you are romancing yourself
towards. Become familiar with the sacrifices both practical and financial,
before following any pre-conceived notions about this kinda work you may
already have.
>the arts have always been a great love of mine, and i used to be very
>active in music, dance, photography, drawing. all this was back in
>the days of K-12 education though.
That's great...but where you any good? Could you have gone on to art school had
you chosen to?
How would you fair in a life drawing class today?
>my college years spent at a stuffy
>B-school completely diverted me, and i am now more than a little rusty
>in anything artistic.
>to make a long story short(er), i've done a fair amount of research,
>and of all the fields out there, animation is what i'm most interested
>in... my "dream career" so to speak.
>
I dream of being a rock star....should I sacrifice my life to that pursuit, or
should I establish the fact of whether "I can" first?
It's a personal question only you can answer. Honesty with ones self is the key
to tapping ones abilities and harnessing new ones.
>however, animation is _so far_ from my current background...
>especially since i would like to approach it from an artistic route,
>not the computer route. i completely understand and agree with the
>necessity to have good visual and artistic talent, so i shy away from
>the tech route (even though in the past i did wish i had a C.S.
>degree... and perhaps jumping to the Computer Animation via tech is an
>"easier" jump... but is it the best way?).
>
>
If you "specifically" seek an animation position, the tech route is the
absolute wrong route...
Invest your time in traditional animation methodology/terminology and
stop-motion and claymation....trust me.
THIS:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1. Get a piece of software and start working it.
2. The school Full Sail is looking really serious.
www.fullsail.com
3. Get your work out to the public any way you can.
--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
is a terrrible idea....BTW I have some issues with Fullsail....
>my questions:
>
>how does someone like me go about "relearning" and/or acquiring the
>artistic skills needed to do animation? art school?
>
Get on the Cel animation newsgroups and websites and head for all the hands-on
seminars you can go to....seek advice from the working professional cel
animators as to whom they look to...my pseudo mentor is Richard Williams...seek
him out.
>if art school is the way to go, how can i possibly assemble a
>portfolio which would get me into a good art school... when my current
>skill level is so low due to lack of practice?
>
Try drawing classes and seminars from your local art studios and community
colleges...affordable and directly applicable.
>also, as far as art programs go, i'm pretty sure i don't have the
>background to get into a graduate art program... but i already have a
>Bachelor's degree and would not need to repeat liberal arts and basic
>science requirements to get yet another Bachelor's degree. what
>schools + programs would make the most sense for me?
>
SKIP the formal indoctrination route...this is a skills based industry, not a
degree field....concentrate on your skills and don't waste your time chasing
worthless paper.
>i have financial concerns as well, as i've been independent of my
>parents for 3 years and obviously would want to keep it that way. i
>can't possibly burden them with the cost of a second degree, in a
>field which they probably will not approve of. :( (they're
>perfectly happy with my "successful" career... and don't understand
>why i'm so miserable) so basically putting myself through school will
>mean huge debt.
>
You can shoulder the cost of bringing yourself up to speed by yourself....again
do not pay tuition anywhere....and stay away from the computer as long as you
can....
>one more concern, related to the animation field in general. i
>understand things are difficult in the field now, with many projects
>being outsourced to other countries. does this mean the job market is
>really bad now? also, being on the east coast, and my family being in
>the northeast... i worry that in order to pursue animation, i will
>need to relocate to California, where the bulk of the jobs seem to be.
> is this necessarily true?
>
One of the core sacrifices you need to face up to is being mobile...and I don't
mean just for one job, I mean as a core career skill....that's part of the
deal. The whole world is a playground ....
The market may be soft right now...but it is by no means "bad"...life is good
if your a professional in the field right now....
Think long and hard....but invest with your sparetime....that's the safest
bet...re-build your foundation, and then branch out from there.
MSu1049321
you start to get a creative life outside of it. Spend your nights and weekends
working with clay and stop-motion software (there's free/cheap shareware apps
for the downloading). Go to the art museums or galleries on your lunch hour and
ogle, look at composition, form, light. Start subscribing to some of the
magazines out there. Force yourself to go sketch and shade some drawings
somewhere on a weekly basis. Download and play with fomr free/cheap apps like
Blender. All this you can do concurrently with your work, without much expense.
When you are ready for the next step, you will know.
Anim8life
>you start to get a creative life outside of it.
Very very apt....
>All this you can do concurrently with your work, without much
>expense.
>When you are ready for the next step, you will know.
excellent advice...
Ryan Greene
students whom have asked me the same question.
I agree with the last post.
So, you want to be a 3d artist or animator, but do not have an art
background?
First of all, ask yourself if you really have an interest in art, or do you
think it would just be a cool job? If you really don't like creating
artwork, don't fool yourself. You really wouldn't like being a production
artist. If you think that you really would like doing art, but just have not
had the opportunity, it would be a good idea to start building your basic
skillset, and to begin nurturing your undiscovered talent. This takes
discipline and desire in order to develop, but no more effort than it takes
when you are working as a production artist. If you cannot make yourself do
art on your own, how do you think an employer could get you to be creative?
Just learning some software will not make you an artist, which is what you
will need to be to get a job. I too made a major career switch to
animation, coming from a law enforcement background, so it is possible. But
I had always been doing art on the side, so that wasn't something that I had
to learn from the ground up. I quit work and did a nine month software
training course in Studio Max and Photoshop to get my computer skills up to
speed. This was really helpful in getting to know the software, but did not
help me improve my art skills too much. Luckily we also did a life drawing
class that helped keep my skills sharp as well. This is one way of going
about training, but is not a good way to learn to be an artist.
If I had to do it again, here is what I would do. Get a pencil and paper,
and draw for a minimum of one hour a day on weekdays, and 2 hours a day on
weekends. Draw from still life setups, photos, and from your imagination.
Take classes from the local junior colleges, art studios, adult ed, etc. Do
this for a minimum of six months religiously, or until the point when you
are extremely confident in your drawing skills.
Once you have reached this point, do not stop drawing, but begin focusing on
drawing objects and people that are in motion. Refer to the Sports
magazines, or pause video tapes or DVDs as people are in motion. Examine
their balance, posture, expressions, etc. Draw this type of stuff a lot.
Keep doing this.
Now try adding color. Whether with pencils, watercolors, inks, oils, it
doesn't matter. Experiment with different media, and go buy a book on color
theory. I have found these to be very helpful.
Also, begin trying traditional sculpture. Nothing fancy here, just take
eight bucks down to the local art store, and get a nice big lump of clay.
Make stuff. Do still life reconstructions, use photo references, and make
crazy stuff from your imagination. Do this every day, and if need be, take
a class to help you out.
At this point, begin working on the computer. Do not quit doing the
drawing, painting and sculpture. I highly advise at this point that take
two classes. These should be intensive classes that teach you the toolset
quickly, and will not take up years of your time and money. Take a
Photoshop (or similar paint program) class, and learn to use the software as
a paint package. Draw in it, paint in it, or scan in artwork that you have
drawn, then colorize and tweek it. After this, take a 3d class. The
package that you use does not really matter, but pick one that you could get
a job with. 3d Studio Max and Maya probably have the largest market share,
so you may want to take that into account.
While you are in the Photoshop and 3d classes, buy the educational versions
of the software at a heavily discounted price. After the class, you should
know enough to do the computer work on your own. Do a minimum of a tutorial
a day with the software, and also begin working on your own project. Do
tutorials that will teach you the skills that you will need for the project.
Take more advanced classes on the elements of the software that you are most
interested in if need be. This may be for modeling, lighting, texture
painting, character animation, or something else. Play to your strengths,
and expand your knowledge to shore up your weaknesses.
The project that you choose to do should be simple, but done will polish and
style. Use your drawing skills to sketch out characters, environments, and
storyboards for the project. Use your clay to mock up versions of the
objects that will be in the shots. You should have a solid idea of what the
finished project will look like before beginning any work on the computer,
otherwise you will just waste time on the box. Once you are ready, do it!
Ride yourself hard! Make yourself put in some time to the project every
day. Set yourself a schedule, and treat it like a normal work schedule.
Upon completion, you should have a nice demo reel/portfolio piece, and will
know what it is like to work through a project.
At this point, try to get creative work that will utilize any of the skills
that you have developed. This may be freelance work, work in animation, or
a job in a related field. Just get experience wherever you can, that will
help you hone your skillset and aid you in getting closer toward your dream
job.
Ryan Greene
Mesmer Animation Labs
Anim8life
>background?
Excellent post Mr Greene, and I would like to follow-up on a specific point
that I strongly believe must be addresses, or clarified...
Computer Artist and Animator are 2 different things...
Computer artist = a collection of skills that enable the artist to create
imagery with a computer for different mediums (digital and otherwise).
Animator = a collection of skills used to create MOTION, or performances...most
notably "charactor animation", which are an excerise in emoting feelings and
drama/acting...telling stories (long and short).
The reason I stress animation skills seperatly is that they are literally
different jobs with different pre-requisites...one does not equal the other by
default.
if "I" where to begin again from scratch, I would concentrate SOLEY on motion
and performance, rather than claw and scratch my way to that point, competing
with cel animators for heavy positions....though I began with classic acting
and art skills....but that's another story.
It is widley known that animators for feature films are recruited voraciously
from the cel and stop-motion arena and NOT from the software crowd...the
numbers are huge....but my point being MANY of these folks are set in front of
a CG environment for the first time and given training....
You see if you're an animator, they care little what you know of software
'cause chances are you've never seen their tools anyway...they are designed and
built for "animators", with flexible and easy to understand digital puppetts
provided to you....that's why the stop-motion skills "almost transparently
transfer onto the digital equivilant....
Cel animation is all about motion, in timing, weight and acting
performances...all the drawing skills are an extention of an inate ability to
understand forms in the round (through proportion and balance), giving you the
ability to translate/communicate the ideas of masses in motion...the visual
equivilant of physics...there is also a learned performance vocabulary that
only cel and stop motion experience can provide you with....the power of
key/passing frames.
So you see, I would gladly trade all my technical knowledge, aquired
programming skills, in-depth practical color theory, Sculpting/Modeling
prowess, and Technical Direction abilities to ONLY concern my mental cycles
with my motion and charactor performance abilities....even though I have an
abundance of each, I would rather leave my animation skills intact, and release
the rest....because I know there are oppourtunities in the industry to soley
concentrate on animation...I've had them.....and at that level you are part of
a larger produciton team with all the support mechanisms, allowing you to focus
on the task at hand; acting....these are the good paying animation jobs, but
the stakes are high, and the requirements are most times even higher...
Sexy MF
>if "I" where to begin again from scratch, I would concentrate SOLEY on motion
>and performance, rather than claw and scratch my way to that point, competing
>with cel animators for heavy positions....though I began with classic acting
>and art skills....but that's another story.
>
>It is widley known that animators for feature films are recruited voraciously
>from the cel and stop-motion arena and NOT from the software crowd...the
>numbers are huge....but my point being MANY of these folks are set in front of
>a CG environment for the first time and given training....
>
But aren't you missing the fact that when you're ON a computer, a lot
of the tweening is done by it? Maybe not all of it, a human being
running could hardly be done by a computer I think, but for example
when a spaceship flies across the screen, I don't think a human sits
and draws every frame in the middle, do you? In fact, this would be
the vital difference that SEPARATES cel from computer animation - what
do you think? Also not to forget Motion Capture, which I'd suspect is
playing an ever greater part in the whole animation process - I mean,
I don't think movies like Shrek could be made without it do you?
>So you see, I would gladly trade all my technical knowledge, aquired
>programming skills, in-depth practical color theory, Sculpting/Modeling
>prowess, and Technical Direction abilities to ONLY concern my mental cycles
>with my motion and charactor performance abilities....even though I have an
>abundance of each, I would rather leave my animation skills intact, and release
read above.
>the rest....because I know there are oppourtunities in the industry to soley
>concentrate on animation...I've had them.....and at that level you are part of
>a larger produciton team with all the support mechanisms, allowing you to focus
>on the task at hand; acting....these are the good paying animation jobs, but
>the stakes are high, and the requirements are most times even higher...
I'm another guy with tech skills looking to make the shift to computer
art, and looking for help on this newsgroup - nice to know there's so
many others in the same boat with me - nice talking to y'all! :)
<SMF>
Anim8life
>motion
>>and performance, rather than claw and scratch my way to that point,
>competing
>>with cel animators for heavy positions....though I began with classic acting
>>and art skills....but that's another story.
>>
>>It is widley known that animators for feature films are recruited
>voraciously
>>from the cel and stop-motion arena and NOT from the software crowd...the
>>numbers are huge....but my point being MANY of these folks are set in front
>of
>>a CG environment for the first time and given training....
>>
>
>But aren't you missing the fact that when you're ON a computer, a lot
>of the tweening is done by it?
I think you are missing the point entirely, or demonstrating how little you
know about basic animation (theory)
machines assist, and humans determine the parameters. Yes, they fill in the
gaps, but that's the grunt work, no the story of a particular animation....the
story is in te keyframes and passing frames....
>Maybe not all of it, a human being
>running could hardly be done by a computer I think
Again, this shows how little you know.
>, but for example
>when a spaceship flies across the screen, I don't think a human sits
>and draws every frame in the middle, do you?
No, but they determine path, banking, enertia and plenty of other things....
> In fact, this would be
>the vital difference that SEPARATES cel from computer animation - what
>do you think?
I think you don't know jack about animation, and perhaps watch too much tv.
>Also not to forget Motion Capture, which I'd suspect is
>playing an ever greater part in the whole animation process - I mean,
>I don't think movies like Shrek could be made without it do you?
1.) Motion Capture was originaly developed for sports medicine and analysis,
and then later adopted for animation production beacuse of practical production
concerns....it's still an intensive time suck on production, but helps susport
a team of skilled animators.
2.) Shrek was hardly (if at all) reliant on Motion Capture.
So yes, movies are made ALL THE TIME without it.
>
>
>>So you see, I would gladly trade all my technical knowledge, aquired
>>programming skills, in-depth practical color theory, Sculpting/Modeling
>>prowess, and Technical Direction abilities to ONLY concern my mental cycles
>>with my motion and charactor performance abilities....even though I have an
>>abundance of each, I would rather leave my animation skills intact, and
>release
>
>read above.
>
>>the rest....because I know there are oppourtunities in the industry to soley
>>concentrate on animation...I've had them.....and at that level you are part
>of
>>a larger produciton team with all the support mechanisms, allowing you to
>focus
>>on the task at hand; acting....these are the good paying animation jobs, but
>>the stakes are high, and the requirements are most times even higher...
>
>I'm another guy with tech skills looking to make the shift to computer
>art, and looking for help on this newsgroup - nice to know there's so
>many others in the same boat with me - nice talking to y'all! :)
Well I"m NOT a computer guy, I'm a 13 year veteran of the animation field....I
would suggest you keep your day job.
Cristin McKee
> playing an ever greater part in the whole animation process - I mean,
> I don't think movies like Shrek could be made without it do you?
I could be totally wrong on this but I don't think Pixar uses motion
capture. And their character animation far surpasses that of both
shrek and antz imho.
Anim8life
You're right-on sister, and appear to have a better "eye" than the last
person....a valuable trait
John Spain
> if "I" where to begin again from scratch, I would concentrate SOLEY on
motion
> and performance, rather than claw and scratch my way to that point,
competing
> with cel animators for heavy positions....though I began with classic
acting
> and art skills....but that's another story.
There's a recent thread on http://www.cg-char.com/ with a post from Keith
Lango pretty much saying the opposite. While he probably agrees with the
sentiment, he says the "raw animator" positions are rare and privileged
ones, so you *have* to be a jack-of all trades, pretty-goood-for-everything
in order to get at those positions in the first place.
And speaking for myself, I'd feel "cut off" as an animator if I did not have
the skills to model and set up my characters for myself...
--
John Spain
"Think of posterity they say, but what, I ask you, has posterity ever done
for us?"
http://www.dreamers.com/jspain
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Anim8life
>> if "I" where to begin again from scratch, I would concentrate SOLEY on
>motion
>> and performance, rather than claw and scratch my way to that point,
>competing
>> with cel animators for heavy positions....though I began with classic
>acting
>> and art skills....but that's another story.
>
>There's a recent thread on http://www.cg-char.com/ with a post from Keith
>Lango pretty much saying the opposite. While he probably agrees with the
>sentiment, he says the "raw animator" positions are rare and privileged
>ones, so you *have* to be a jack-of all trades, pretty-goood-for-everything
>in order to get at those positions in the first place.
>
>And speaking for myself, I'd feel "cut off" as an animator if I did not have
>the skills to model and set up my characters for myself...
Firstly, I don't recall every saying they were prevalent positions, only that
they were the prize I have sought and gained on several occasions...well worth
the investment.
Secondly, is as peice of advice for the person starting out from scratch, I
would advise coming in with strong animation skills and catch the technical
skills along the way...rather than cart before the horse, which is the way most
people start, and I have learned from experience it's easier to gain the tech
stuff, and apply it on top of the animation skills...instead of playing catch
up from a spoiled circumstance.
and I would say that "jack of all whatever" skills, play nothing into gaining
the primo positions, but rather fills the gap in the mean time....which from my
experience, I would rather start at the top, rather than the bottom....:0).
rick++
people now over 30 came into via other channels- traditional ink
animation,
art, computer graphics, etc.
(*Cameron's scifi movie The Abyss(1989) is often considered to have
the
first photo-realistic CGI creatures. This revived the F/X field that
almost went bankrupt in the 1980s from cheesy effects like Tron and
Last Starfighter.)
coosa
Pixar films at Siggraph(?) or some such presentation
some years back and asking specifically about how they
got such great character motion, and the reply was something
to the effect "we hired great animators, 'stole' a few from Disney".
So the key motion back then was completely human, no capture
or rotoscoping. And very well done at that.
"Cristin McKee" <star...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:16be6dbb.02011...@posting.google.com...