legal question (music)
BSpider
I was wondering whether it is legal to do re-mixes of real _popular_ songs
and put them as background music (IT or XM format) in a freeware game. I'm
not a music composer, but I can always do re-mixes, modifying the notes and
using my own set of samples. I actually thought it would be the best way to
get some BGM for my game. The big question is whether it is legal to do so.
BTW sorry if this was already asked on this ng (it's my first post here :).
Erik Max Francis
> I was wondering whether it is legal to do re-mixes of real _popular_
> songs
> and put them as background music (IT or XM format) in a freeware game.
No, unfortunately it isn't.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ In principle I am against principles.
\__/ Tristan Tzara
username
"BSpider" <NOSPAMp...@o2.pl> wrote in message
news:bo0d9q$sgk$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
> Hi all,
> I was wondering whether it is legal to do re-mixes of real _popular_ songs
> and put them as background music (IT or XM format) in a freeware game. I'm
> not a music composer, but I can always do re-mixes, modifying the notes
and
> using my own set of samples. I actually thought it would be the best way
to
> get some BGM for my game. The big question is whether it is legal to do
so.
of course that is NOT legal!
--
PFF Software: Software that makes you think
www.pff-software.nl
Games for Windows, PocketPC and Web
BSpider
Użytkownik "username" <e-mail@adress> napisał w wiadomości
news:3fa43504$0$58697$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>
>
> of course that is NOT legal!
>
>
That's what I thought. I just had this idea because a lot of people make
remixes and submit them to various music related websites. By remixes I mean
something only resembling to the original song, where the same melody theme
is played faster/slower, with different instruments and slightly modified
notes. Anyway, I'll have to do it the hard way (come up with something
original) or start looking for amateur music websites and asking for
permissions to use a particulair song that I like.
Alfred
I believe it depends on the country. I am 99% sure that remix laws in India
are so screwed up that anyone can market a remix of some popular song
without paying any royalty to the original composer. You might find some
usenet discussions on this. Ofcourse, you would not want a "hindi" song for
your game.. but same thing might apply for the instrumental versions of some
catchy songs. :)
Gerry Quinn
>BSpider wrote:
>
>> I was wondering whether it is legal to do re-mixes of real _popular_
>> songs
>> and put them as background music (IT or XM format) in a freeware game.
>
>No, unfortunately it isn't.
Or to be exact:
No, fortunately it isn't.
- Gerry Quinn
Pete Taylor
news:bo0d9q$sgk$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl:
OK, so the consensous is "no", but... What about if you were to hook up
your midi-keyboard and play your favourite pop song in a cheesy midi
format? That way you have not used the original song as your basis.
I was sure this is what they do in Card shops in the UK (such as
Clintons) where you walk in and hear some very cheesy cover versions of
recent chart toppers. I was once told that these shops used this music
to avoid having to pay expensive royalties to record companies for using
the original music?
If anything, I'd say this is a very grey area. It's a bit like a local
band doing a live performance of another chart-topping band's music.
Will they be sued for it? Where is the line drawn between ripping-off
people's creativity and impinging on people's civil liberties?
It'd be interesting to see what the response to this would be in a
legal/music ng...
I'm not trying to start a debate here, I'm just interested myself
because sooner or later I'm going to want to include some music in my
own game.
Best regards,
Pete
Frecklefoot
> I was sure this is what they do in Card shops in the UK (such as
> Clintons) where you walk in and hear some very cheesy cover versions of
> recent chart toppers. I was once told that these shops used this music
> to avoid having to pay expensive royalties to record companies for using
> the original music?
I think what you're referring to here is what is commonly called
"elevator music" in the US. I think the Muzac corp (or something like
that) is responsible for a great deal of it. The band/group doing the
cover version does have to pay a licensing fee. But I don't think the
user of the EM has to pay any kind of fee for using it (it is just the
way the muzac company licenses their music to make it more
attractive--if they wanted to, they could require a fee everytime
their music is played). So the fee is paid at one point in time.
I suppose you could check with the original composer/producer of the
music and see what kind of fee they'd charge if you wanted to include
a cover of one of their songs in your game. But chances are, the fee
would be prohibitive.
BSpider
Użytkownik "Pete Taylor" <n...@this.address> napisał w wiadomości
news:Xns942873BE663A7pe...@130.139.56.200...
legal/music ng...
>
> I'm not trying to start a debate here, I'm just interested myself
> because sooner or later I'm going to want to include some music in my
> own game.
>
Considering that my game is going to be freeware I decided to adapt a very
simple strategy here. It's called "better safe than sorry". But there's
another interesting question. Is it true that songs older than 75 years can
be used for free without any written permissions? I don't remember where I
heard it, but it sounds reasonable enough to ask about it.
Erik Max Francis
> OK, so the consensous is "no", but... What about if you were to hook
> up
> your midi-keyboard and play your favourite pop song in a cheesy midi
> format? That way you have not used the original song as your basis.
Yes, you did. If it's the same song, you copied from the original,
whether you did so via another medium or not. Derivative works do not
require direct ancestry in terms of physical media to be derivative. If
I take a copyrighted short story and write it out longhand, do you not
think that's a copyright violation? If I recite it out loud in a public
place, do you think that's fair?
> I was sure this is what they do in Card shops in the UK (such as
> Clintons) where you walk in and hear some very cheesy cover versions
> of
> recent chart toppers. I was once told that these shops used this music
> to avoid having to pay expensive royalties to record companies for
> using
> the original music?
In the United States, this is called Muzak. It's properly licensed.
> If anything, I'd say this is a very grey area.
If you think this is a grey area, why did you ask about the legality of
it in the first place? At this point you are claiming to know better
than the people you asked. Why don't you hire an IP attorney and see
what he thinks?
> It's a bit like a local
> band doing a live performance of another chart-topping band's music.
> Will they be sued for it?
You are making the distinction between the legality/actionability of an
action and the likelihood that you will be caught in the act. Obviously
if there is no possible way you can be caught, then you are not going to
be get caught. Does that make it not legal/actionable? That's an
academic question.
> It'd be interesting to see what the response to this would be in a
> legal/music ng...
You will hear the same answers. Try it.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
__ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && &tSftDotIotE
/ \ Exercise is wonderful. I could sit and watch it all day.
\__/ Louis Wu
Timothy J. Bruce
Kosmic.org and ModArchive.com are great places to start.
HTH
</RANT>
Gerry Quinn
>
>Considering that my game is going to be freeware I decided to adapt a very
>simple strategy here. It's called "better safe than sorry". But there's
>another interesting question. Is it true that songs older than 75 years can
>be used for free without any written permissions? I don't remember where I
>heard it, but it sounds reasonable enough to ask about it.
I'm not sure of the exact number of years, but it looks about right -
you can probably look it up.
There is a potential 'gotcha' in that even if a piece like Beethoven's
Ninth is out of copyright, a certain published arrangement of it might
not be. However, it's unlikely that your 're-mix' of Beethoven has
anything to fear. That's not legal advice that you can do it, that's
just saying that I would not worry about being sued for it!
There's no point being too precious about these matters. In the current
climate a lot of people are trying to spread fear and uncertainty in
order to contaminate the whole notion of copyright law. Imagine if
there were a million web pages screaming that if you pick up a twig from
someone's lawn you can be hanged for theft, and what are we going to do
before the sky falls? Copyright is a bit like that at the moment.
Gerry Quinn
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Pete Taylor
news:3FA6BA3D...@alcyone.com:
> Pete Taylor wrote:
>
>> OK, so the consensous is "no", but... What about if you were to hook
>> up
>> your midi-keyboard and play your favourite pop song in a cheesy midi
>> format? That way you have not used the original song as your basis.
>
> Yes, you did. If it's the same song, you copied from the original,
> whether you did so via another medium or not. Derivative works do not
> require direct ancestry in terms of physical media to be derivative.
> If I take a copyrighted short story and write it out longhand, do you
> not think that's a copyright violation? If I recite it out loud in a
> public place, do you think that's fair?
Good point! I hadn't looked at it from that angle.
>> I was sure this is what they do in Card shops in the UK (such as
>> Clintons) where you walk in and hear some very cheesy cover versions
>> of
>> recent chart toppers. I was once told that these shops used this
>> music to avoid having to pay expensive royalties to record companies
>> for using
>> the original music?
>
> In the United States, this is called Muzak. It's properly licensed.
>
>> If anything, I'd say this is a very grey area.
>
> If you think this is a grey area, why did you ask about the legality
> of it in the first place? At this point you are claiming to know
> better than the people you asked. Why don't you hire an IP attorney
> and see what he thinks?
Sorry, perhaps I ought to have added "in my opinion" to that. I
apologise because I didn't mean to come across in that manner.
>> It's a bit like a local
>> band doing a live performance of another chart-topping band's music.
>> Will they be sued for it?
>
> You are making the distinction between the legality/actionability of
> an action and the likelihood that you will be caught in the act.
> Obviously if there is no possible way you can be caught, then you are
> not going to be get caught. Does that make it not legal/actionable?
> That's an academic question.
You're right, but I'm pretty sure that in the UK up until now it has
been perfectly legal for live bands in pubs to play cover versions of
"copyrighted" music. Again, this is just my belief and not fact, so I
would happily be corrected.
>> It'd be interesting to see what the response to this would be in a
>> legal/music ng...
>
> You will hear the same answers. Try it.
>
I don't doubt it!
I apologise if my post came across as arrogant or offensive, I can
assure you that it wasn't meant in that vein.
Best regards,
Pete
Olivier Pons
if your song has more than 5 notes in a row
that someone else has already done
it's considered as a "plagiarism" and
thus you can be sued for that.
Or if it's exacly the same song for let's
say 3 seconds (can't remember precisely)
it's the same thing.
"BSpider" <NOSPAMp...@o2.pl> a écrit dans le message de
news:bo1ebi$eok$1...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
BSpider
Użytkownik "Timothy J. Bruce" <uni...@hotmail.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:TUGpb.6299$Bv6.1...@news1.epix.net...
> BSpider:
>
> Kosmic.org and ModArchive.com are great places to start.
>
Thanks, I didn't know about the first website. Kosmic.org interface is
terrible though.
BSpider
news:RNLpb.4069$bD.1...@news.indigo.ie...
> In article <bo627q$t7a$2...@nemesis.news.tpi.pl>, "BSpider"
<NOSPAMp...@o2.pl> wrote:
> >
>
> There is a potential 'gotcha' in that even if a piece like Beethoven's
> Ninth is out of copyright, a certain published arrangement of it might
> not be. However, it's unlikely that your 're-mix' of Beethoven has
> anything to fear. That's not legal advice that you can do it, that's
> just saying that I would not worry about being sued for it!
>
LOL, that's of Beethoven, Tchaikovsky and Chopin that I thought when sending
this post. Anyway, doing a good modern remix of classical stuff is pretty
hard, so I think I'd rather concentrate on searching music created by
amateurs.
Frecklefoot
> Is it true that songs older than 75 years can
> be used for free without any written permissions?
IANAL, but if I remember correctly, that is 80 years AFTER the
author's death. That is how the copyright is applied to written texts,
at least, but it should be identical for music as well. You might want
to throw this question up on a legal NG somewhere.
Timothy J. Bruce
I just took a look at Kosmic and it seems they are not into the tracking
scene as they used to; just a lot of MP3s now. Dangit! Where have all the
trackers gone?
</RANT>