Job question
BiG BaD AL
For the past two years I have been working for a small games company,
unfortunately the company has hit hard times and has been unable to pay me
now for almost 6 months! Anyway the reason I am writing this is that I am
very serious about games programming and I would like to continue working in
this particular industry, however my problem is I haven't done a degree (I
only have an HND in software engineering) and so seek some expert advice,
put simply : Is it likely / possible to build up a career in the games
industry without a degree or should I give up the job hunt and go back to
uni?
Thanks for you time
Al.
www.btinternet.com\~allan.bentham
Paul Sinnett
working in the games industry for 2 years. The other real sweetener is
having published games to your name.
The only reason you might need a degree in games programming is to get your
start - you've already done that.
How long have you been looking for work?
BiG BaD AL wrote in message <7t89pe$h6o$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>...
BiG BaD AL
'thanks but no thanks' letters and I am beginning to think its just not
gonna happen.
Paul Sinnett <pa...@probe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:E3FF8239A075D311AF7...@probe-2.acclaim-euro.net...
Staggan
BiG BaD AL
Staggan <sta...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991003160917...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
> Do you have examples of your work to show ?
Just whats on my web site:
Kent Dahl
Cor-blimey! Dangerously addictive, that is!
Thanx for ruining my study-progress :-)
--
// =========================================================
/** @author Kent Dahl - stud.techn.; ind.øk. data, 2. år
* @url http://www.bigfoot.com/~MenThal/
*
* "To me, praying to 'God', is like pinging localhost."
* - agnostic computerfreak */
Paul Sinnett
off the ball 90% of the time. It probably comes down to the fact that most
companies can't or won't plan more than a few weeks ahead.
What tends to happen is that your application will languish in a pile on
somebody's desk until that fateful day when a manager will walk into the
recruiters office ranting about some game that *must* be completed. "We need
another 6 programmers NOW damn-it!"
At that point you can write out your own salary ;o)
I remember getting involved in some recruitment for a programmer for our
project about 4 months ago. We only got 3 candidates and *none* of them had
any previous games experience.
If I were you, I'd get in touch with an agency such as Pelican. They'll sort
you out.
BiG BaD AL wrote in message <7t8ch9$pv$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
Phil Drinkwater
>>this particular industry, however my problem is I haven't done a degree (I
>>only have an HND in software engineering) and so seek some expert advice,
>>put simply : Is it likely / possible to build up a career in the games
>>industry without a degree or should I give up the job hunt and go back to
>>uni?
Not having a degree isn't necessarily a problem. Maybe if I explain
why a degree is desirable, you'll understand why I say that. People
with degrees can often be said to have a background understanding of
software engineering processes, such as structure and development
methods, as well as a good, wide knowledge of computer science in
general eg. databases, some AI generally, algorithms - all of that
kind of thing. This helps to broaden their view. If you can get some
of that on your own, then great, you'll not need a degree. That said,
many companies will take people without degrees and mould them into
their way of working, so, as I say, it might not be necessary at all.
If I was you, I'd read some of the good development practice books,
like Code Complete from Microsoft, maybe learn something about
databases and C++ and object orientation - that kind of thing. Just
try and get yourself a grounding.
in the meantime, get some interviews and tell them you're doing this
kind of thing to increase your general knowledge of computer science.
It should impress them.
(All of this assumes you've not already done these things, obviously)
Best of luck!
Phil
Robin Green
says...
>
>for the past 6 - 8 weeks, i've had 1 interview (with acclaim) and a several
>'thanks but no thanks' letters and I am beginning to think its just not
>gonna happen.
Seriously, I'd suggest registering your name with one of the UK
games recruitment agencys. I can recommend Aardvark Swift, Pelican or
(for more general IT work) Datascope.
1. Aardvark Swift
Stephen Lloyd Davis on 01709 876877
http://www.ardswift.co.uk/
2. Pelican Consultants
0181 423 3400
http://www.pelican-consultants.com/
3. Datascope
0171 580 6018
If you do register, be serious about wanting to get a job and be
prepared to do 3-5 interviews around the country in a week. If
you're good you'll see a lot of people in a very short time and
you'll get the hang of interviewing the companys you're talking to
as well as presenting yourself.
Cold letters, although nice to recieve and do show a degree of
commitment, just don't fit into our recruitment plans unless you're
*really* lucky. We look for people to fill our vacancies, not for
talented people as they come along (whether or not that's right is
a different conversation). Agencies have the inside line on games
companys recruiting drives and they'll cost you nothing.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robin Green, Research & Development rgreen<at>ea.com
Bullfrog Productions. tel:+44 1483 482916 These opinions are my own
----------------------------------------------------------------------
medw...@krisalis.co.uk
(only joking honest)
Seriously, its a catch 22 industry.. you need experience to get a job,
but you need a job in the first place to get the experience.
I were one of the lucky ones getting a into the industry in 87 when
one had to develope using speccys and tape decks!
If you have that experience already then get applying, many companies
are screaming for people with experience so they can be stuck straight
into a project with serious deadlines!.
Mark Edwards - Computer Artist
Home - <mailto:Ma...@shafton.idps.co.uk> Work -
<mailto:Medw...@krisalis.co.uk>
ICQ: 31115258 / MSN Messenger: <mailto:rege...@hotmail.com>
On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 01:41:48 -0400, REMOVE_...@mindspring.com
(eric) wrote:
>In article <7t89pe$h6o$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com>,
>Allan....@btinternet.com says...
>
>> Is it likely / possible to build up a career in the games
>> industry without a degree or should I give up the job hunt and go back to
>> uni?
>
>Could be, I doubt its so much a degree anyone cares about, its experience
>and the knowledge that you have the knowledge you need. I think the major
>problem with most people in general is that if learning something new is
>work or a chore then they won't do it. My point is that your experience
>may be great but can it be put to different tasks and can it be increased
>as things change. With a degree it can be reasonably assumed that the
>person has a good foundation or at the least the ability to do what is
>needed to complete a class.
Link
news:7t89pe$h6o$1...@neptunium.btinternet.com...
> Hello guys,
>
> For the past two years I have been working for a small games company,
> unfortunately the company has hit hard times and has been unable to pay me
> now for almost 6 months! Anyway the reason I am writing this is that I am
> very serious about games programming and I would like to continue working
> this particular industry, however my problem is I haven't done a degree (I
> only have an HND in software engineering) and so seek some expert advice,
> industry without a degree or should I give up the job hunt and go back to
> uni?
It depends entirely on what you've been doing at this games company. If you
can show that you've got a firm grasp of all the stuff the degree graduates
normally come out with then there should be no problem. If, on the other
hand, you've been doing a load a donkey work and not learnt much then you
will have a hard time.
What I look for is a familiarity with mathematics, and a good understanding
of software design. The specifics of using these techniques for renderers,
collision systems or AI systems is pretty irrelevant if you're on the ball
with the fundamentals. The problem is, there are few people I've interviewed
without degrees that fill these requirements. Maybe you do though ?
I wouldn't say that you need to go back to college though - just buy a shit
load of books and get your head round all those 'hot topics' that float
around the indutry. Any interviewer who doesn't give you the chance to show
your abilities by having an in-depth chat is not interviewing correctly
anyway.
HTH
--
www.curlymonsters.com
GSF600Sx / 200SX / Scott Galena - Usual disclaimer applies
Be the change you want to see in the world - Ghandi
With all the margeritas we buy honey, I don't think we can afford children -
BHicks
Adam Shaikh
either don't use agencies, or prefer direct contact.
We are looking for programmers, artists and level designers, but would
prefer not to give large wedges of cash to recruitment companies, and will
therefore rarely use them.
Adam
--
Adam Shaikh
Game Designer
The Digital Village
ad...@tdv.com
www.tdv.com www.starshiptitanic.com
"Trying to win an argument with an irrational person is like trying to teach
a cat to snorkel by providing written instructions" - Scott Adams (The Joy
of Work)
Robin Green <rgr...@ea.NOT-THIS-BIT.com> wrote in message
news:37f89...@159.153.58.247...
Jax
<9M4K3.150$aK.2...@newsr2.u-net.net>:
>
>It depends entirely on what you've been doing at this games company. If you
>can show that you've got a firm grasp of all the stuff the degree graduates
>normally come out with then there should be no problem. If, on the other
>hand, you've been doing a load a donkey work and not learnt much then you
>will have a hard time.
>
Hmm... I've been in the industry since around 1988, and I've seen both sides of
this argument. I went to college, and then on to university. But it wasn't my
education that netted me my first post, it was experience. To be fair, the
company I started out with wasn;t up to much, and I could have blagged my way
into the job if my previous experience was as a painter and decorator (no
insult intended to people of that profession).
True, a lot of companies ask for 'high calibre' graduates nowadays, but I think
that's probably just to deter the 'gizza-jobs' and school-kids from wasting
company time by applying. Certainly a lot of the graduates who cam to places I
have worked were simply not up to the standard needed. Sure, they could talk
about a program and explain how things work, but a lot of that was just
straight from text-books or standard form question sheets (like the C++
filtering test in DDJ, circa. 1994!).
By far, the best thing to have is experience. Published work is always best,
but if that's not possible, try to put together a CD with examples of your
work. It's often worth including samples of your source - a lot can be gleaned
from that - and it's unlikely an established games developer will rip off your
source.
The point raised about agencies is also a good one, but do remember that when
your CV gets sent out to companies, it'll be alongside industry veterans with a
great deal more experience. The personal touch is nicer, but you have to make
sure the stuff you send actually reaches somebody who'll look at it. If you
have the facilities (or the money) to do it, try to knock up a little portfolio
of your work. If it looks nice and attracts somebody's attention, then the rest
will be down to the quality of the work therein.
Anyway, best of luck!
Jax, Team Leader, Red Lemon Studios, Glasgow
Kent Dahl
>. Certainly a lot of the graduates who cam to places I
>have worked were simply not up to the standard needed. Sure, they could
talk
>about a program and explain how things work, but a lot of that was just
>straight from text-books or standard form question sheets (like the C++
>filtering test in DDJ, circa. 1994!).
Cor... and I tried to memorize those answers... Dang!
On topic thou, I'm a 2. year student of a 5 year graduate engineering
course, and finding relevant summerjobs ain't easy. Makes me pissed at
myself for only finishing that crap Turbo Pascal game...
*grumble grumble*
Anyway, my current take on it is to put all my semi-finished projects and
doodlings on my home-page, and fill out a FAQ on just about everything I've
done, thats tech related(still in the works). Hopefully I'll atleast land a
summerjob punching data into a database :-P
Anyone got any pointers on how to land relevant work with only "hobby"
experience to show for? I'm sure Acing the Java course won't hurt, but
still...
jax
Kent Dahl <Men...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:7tdjsi$a67$1...@kopp.stud.ntnu.no...
>
> On topic thou, I'm a 2. year student of a 5 year graduate engineering
> course, and finding relevant summerjobs ain't easy. Makes me pissed at
> myself for only finishing that crap Turbo Pascal game...
>
Trouble with the games industry is that the projects involved are usually
long-scale, and as any developer will tell you, changing personnel
mid-project can have dire consequences (no matter what type of standards a
company imposes on programming style, etc.)
Therefore it's difficult to get a 'summer job' in the industry - at least
working on the games. I have been at places before where staff have been
taken on to assist in the creation of tools or artwork - these typically
have much shorter duration schedules than a game.
Jax
;)