Which font to buy?

Thomas Lotze

unread,

Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00

to

Hi,

I'm using TeX for all my printed stuff, which includes
scientific documents (with a lot of maths) as well as "normal"
texts which consist of prose only, and have non-scientific
content. TeX comes with its own, very rich family of Computer
Modern fonts which are ideally suitable for most things I do,
but not all.

I consider buying some font for use in some of my texts,
e.g. lyric texts don't go too well with the same fonts that
are appropriate for mathematical documents. I thought about
Garamond or Janson, but I'm still open to suggestions. What
font would you recommend that has a very rich set of glyphs,
special characters (ornaments, but also math symbols), maybe
alternate glyphs, good expert character sets (small caps,
oldstyle figures) etc? Also, there should be possible a
combination with a sans-serif and a typewriter font that have
similar properties (I want to buy the serif font first as it's
most important.)

Of course, I wouldn't mind if there was a free solution, but
I don't think so...

As for Garamond: There are a lot of, say, implemetations, even
Adobe's Garamond collection alone is confusing enough (to me).
Which Garamond is the richest in glyphs, and which one is
closest to the original?

Thanks and greetings, Thomas

--
Thomas Lotze - thomas.lotze@gmx.<CUT-IT>.net

http://www.thomas-lotze.de http://www.bannertausch-b150.de
http://thestories.cjb.net

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00

to

"Thomas Lotze" <T.L...@tpi.uni-jena.de> wrote in message
news:3A2F66...@tpi.uni-jena.de...

>
> I consider buying some font for use in some of my texts,
> e.g. lyric texts don't go too well with the same fonts that
> are appropriate for mathematical documents. I thought about
> Garamond or Janson, but I'm still open to suggestions. What
> font would you recommend that has a very rich set of glyphs,
> special characters (ornaments, but also math symbols), maybe
> alternate glyphs, good expert character sets (small caps,
> oldstyle figures) etc? Also, there should be possible a
> combination with a sans-serif and a typewriter font that have
> similar properties (I want to buy the serif font first as it's
> most important.)

For the serif, take a look at the Plantin family from Monotype.
Personally I think it's gorgeous, and it's been more than perfect for me
in book and newspaper layouts. The family is huge and contains
everything you mention, and then some.
http://studio.agfamonotype.com/fonts/index.html
Type Plantin in the search box there.
Note that this is not the same Plantin sold by Adobe. The family sold at
Adobe is much smaller and lacks in many aspects compared to the real
Monotype package.

For a sans, check out the 52-font Univers pack from Linotype. It is very
nice, and it certainly is a sans workhorse that trots non-stop.
http://www.fonts.de/shop/shop_un_newun1.html

> As for Garamond: There are a lot of, say, implemetations, even
> Adobe's Garamond collection alone is confusing enough (to me).
> Which Garamond is the richest in glyphs, and which one is
> closest to the original?

Here are the ones I remember off the bat:
- Stempel Garamond: the mainstream closest you will find to the
original. Not much variety there though: 8 fonts at Lino/Adobe, include
bold, italic, bold italic, OsF across the board, and roman small caps,
but that's about it.
- Adobe Garamond: a lot of variety there, but while the main weights
were based on Garamond's punches, the italics were based on Granjon's
work (so they're not true Garamond).
- Monotype's Garamond: great fonts there. Based on Jannon's work, mind
you, not Garamond's. Very nice expert sets and swashes.
- ITC Garamond: also based on Jannon's stuff, but I don't recommend it
at all. It's umm, say, quirky in many respects. Adobe has a multiple
master version of it too.
- Berthold Garamond: good set with some variety, but also based on
Jannon's copies of Garamond's types.
- Granjon: just 6 fonts at Lino/Adobe, based on Granjon's work, which is
very similar to Garamond (those two were contemporaries, if I remember
correctly).
- Sabon: 8 fonts, romans based on original Garamond, italics based on
Granjon's work.
- Garamond 3: 8 fonts at Lino/Adobe, based on Jannon's work (as copied
by Benton at ATF, I think). Not much variety there.
- Simoncini Garamond: authentic enough, but no variety at all. A bit
lighter than the rest too. 3 fonts at Lino/Adobe.
- 1530 Garamond, by Ross Mills at Tiro: this one is certainly based on
Garamond's work, but the design turned out to be good for only display,
and really bad for text (the c and e are too closed for 14 and under,
for instance).

And of course, my favourite of all digital Garamonds is called Augereau
(named after Claude Garamond's teacher). It is the most authentic
digitization I have ever seen of Garamond's work, and it's full of
variety. 28 weights of sheer beauty. Unfortunately, it is too expensive
to buy and available for purchase only from George Abrahms himself (the
guy who digitized it), who happens to now be a very old man in upstate
New York. If you want his snail-mail information, email me.

Happy hunting.

'
--
Tinker bells.
L'ab: http://members.home.net/apostrophe
L'ist: http://labcat.listbot.com/

SuperCat

unread,

Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00

to

>And of course, my favourite of all digital Garamonds is called Augereau
>(named after Claude Garamond's teacher). It is the most authentic
>digitization I have ever seen of Garamond's work, and it's full of
>variety. 28 weights of sheer beauty. Unfortunately, it is too expensive
>to buy and available for purchase only from George Abrahms himself (the
>guy who digitized it), who happens to now be a very old man in upstate
>New York. If you want his snail-mail information, email me.
>

Just curious...about how much is it? Are there sample gifs available?

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM12/7/00

to

"SuperCat" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:900356DFFy...@207.217.77.24...

>
> Just curious...about how much is it? Are there sample gifs available?

It's over 2000 USD, the price of a good used car, for 28 fonts.
There are no samples online that I know of.

'
--

Thierry Bouche

unread,

Dec 7, 2000, 1:19:51 PM12/7/00

to

"Apostrophe $'$" <apos...@mail.com> writes:

> "Thomas Lotze" <T.L...@tpi.uni-jena.de> wrote in message
> news:3A2F66...@tpi.uni-jena.de...
> >
> > I consider buying some font for use in some of my texts,
> > e.g. lyric texts don't go too well with the same fonts that
> > are appropriate for mathematical documents. I thought about
> > Garamond or Janson, but I'm still open to suggestions. What
> > font would you recommend that has a very rich set of glyphs,
> > special characters (ornaments, but also math symbols), maybe
> > alternate glyphs, good expert character sets (small caps,
> > oldstyle figures) etc? Also, there should be possible a
> > combination with a sans-serif and a typewriter font that have
> > similar properties (I want to buy the serif font first as it's
> > most important.)

well, if you look for math symbols, you're out of luck. You'd need
optical sizes for subscripts, etc. and matching symbols, greek, etc.

this restricts quite the possibilities! But if you're OK for having a
good text font and making maths fonts from that + honestly matching
math glyphs (from MathTime or CM depending on your font weight),
you've some choice. What makes me uncomfortable in your request is
both lyric & scientific with the same font. It seems very difficult to
achieve, because scientific publishing requires a more or less
impersonnal font, with individual letters easily recognizable by
themselves (when used as variables, e.g.) and not too idiosyncatics
(for instance the long tail of a Q may collide with a subscript, a
greek face will be harder to find, etc.); whereas you can go much
further if only text is on the scope.

The recent Opentype fonts shipped by adobe have quite some interesting
glyph set (Minion has greek, cyrillic, expert glyphs, the Minion
Optical has moreover optical sizes, I guess), it's quite fit for a
touch of class in scientific publications, but too asepticized for
fancy texts, imho. I know however of no tex implementation that could
use OTFs now...

For the more technical part of your question, a font like Bulmer,
Kepler could fit.

I would not advise Jenson for maths, but it's nice for text.

> For the serif, take a look at the Plantin family from Monotype.

Yes Plantin is a good compromise between garamonds and Times or such
(Minion is another one, more humane-oriented), its short descenders
make it work pretty well with subscripts, its large x-height makes it
relatively legible at small sizes... Less elegant than a true
Renaissance text font, though...

> For a sans, check out the 52-font Univers pack from Linotype.

Gill sans does it well with plantin. Syntax is my best choice as a
companion to some garamond.

> > Which Garamond is the richest in glyphs, and which one is
> > closest to the original?

in the first place, there a many originals!

Sabon claims to be very close to some punches that ended up in Germany
for some reason (beware, the digital version keeped all stupid design
distortions imposed by the linotype technology, its italic should be
avoided but the roman is pretty nice). Imho, the most faithful to the
punches in Plantin museum at Antwerp is Adobe Garamond -- the spacing
was tightened, though).

> - Stempel Garamond: the mainstream closest you will find to the
> original.

I read that often, but I don't agree with it! the weight is somehow
too heavy, the f too short, it's less curly than garamont's fonts, it
is also limited by linotype low typographic abilities...

> - Adobe Garamond: a lot of variety there, but while the main weights
> were based on Garamond's punches, the italics were based on Granjon's
> work (so they're not true Garamond).

yes, and they fit rather well, though the lower contrast of the
italics modify the colour if you use it too extensively.

> - Monotype's Garamond: great fonts there. Based on Jannon's work, mind
> you, not Garamond's. Very nice expert sets and swashes.

sure, but soooo light (goes back to this period where monotype used to
do the digital versions after the punches, not taking into account the
ink spread in the actual print process)

> - ITC Garamond: also based on Jannon's stuff, but I don't recommend it
> at all. It's umm, say, quirky in many respects.

it's a funny display font, accidentally called a garamond...

> - Berthold Garamond: good set with some variety, but also based on
> Jannon's copies of Garamond's types.

I like that one. Less grace than Adobe's, but really efficient for
long texts readings. Rather bold in contrast to the others listed
here. I don't believe the Jannon heritage, it's quite close to Sabon,
the italics don't have the baroque aspects of Jannon's (very wide x,
different slopes between letters, caps almost verticals...)

> - Granjon: just 6 fonts at Lino/Adobe, based on Granjon's work, which is
> very similar to Garamond (those two were contemporaries, if I remember
> correctly).

Someone quite knowledgeable said here that Granjon was some
interpolation between Garamond and Caslon : it has more a transitional
contrast and weight, and wider width than legacy garamonds. I think
the italic is quite near to Granjon's, but the roman is a recent invention.

> - 1530 Garamond, by Ross Mills at Tiro: this one is certainly based on
> Garamond's work, but the design turned out to be good for only display,
> and really bad for text (the c and e are too closed for 14 and under,
> for instance).

agreed, this one is perfect baroque music flyers or theater posters,
not much for text.

[A pitty i never saw that Augereau !]

--
Thierry Bouche
__
« Ils vivent pour vivre, et nous, hélas ! nous vivons pour savoir. »
Charles Baudelaire, Paris.

Paul Neubauer

unread,

Dec 8, 2000, 10:18:29 AM12/8/00

to

In comp.fonts, Thierry...@ujf-grenoble.fr wrote...
>This done, it's a matter of taste between AJenson, Janson Text, Bembo,
>AGaramond, Garamond BE and maybe GaramondMT, Centaur... (imho,
>Agaramond and Minion tend to be overseen)

I guess that what you see a lot of will depend greatly on the field. I
see comparatively little Minion (other than what I do myself, that
is:-). I use Minion in an academic journal that I do the prepress
work for and find it extremely well suited for that purpose. Elegant
is one of the last adjectives I would apply to Minion, however. It's
highly utilitarian, sets very economically, clean, clear, unobtrusive,
contemporary without being trendy, but certainly not elegant.
Agaramond is much closer to being elegant, but I do see a lot more of
it than Minion.

Jenson and Bembo are both candidates for elegant. Depending on the
"feel" and "period" you want to project, Monotype Bulmer can be pretty
good too. Bulmer is a pretty condensed transitional with a lot of
height for its width. It can look very classy for the right kinds of
projects. Janson Text is also very nice. It's much less condensed
than Bulmer or Minion and gives a much more expansive feel.

A lot is going to depend on the sorts of projects that you have in
mind. Faces like Bulmer or Minion are sufficiently condensed that you
cannot sensibly use them in longish lines, as in letters or reports
with a single column on letter size or A4 paper. They go well in
multiple columns. For letters and single column reports, something
like Janson Text or Utopia works much better. For literature, I'd be
much more tempted to go with Adobe Jenson or Bembo of the more
"humanist" faces or Baskerville or Bulmer in the "transitional" line.
"Modern" faces like Didot or Bodoni are good for horror stories, but
I'd stay away from them for anything of a "warmer" nature.

I actually have a section of my web site that is nowhere near as well-
known as the monospace font site where I try to illustrate the "feel"
of different types of faces. I discuss only a limited number of faces
there and for reasons of accessibility, I discuss only free fonts, but
I try for a decent variety and the principles are applicable much more
widely. The fonts I do use in the illustrative examples are not likely
to be the ones you will want to use because they generally lack the
niceties like text figures, small caps, f-ligatures, decorative
ligatures, etc. but if you have an idea of what kinds of material you
intend to use it for, you can get something of a feel for what kinds
of fonts might work. Take a look at http://home.bsu.edu/prn/fontfx/
for a fuller explanation. You will probably want to download the fonts
I discuss (at least the ones you don't have already), but they are all
free and I give download links. You may well disagree with some of my
comments or judgements, but that's fine. The most important thing is
to look and think about what you see.

Paul
--
Paul Neubauer p...@bsu.edu
http://home.bsu.edu/prn/
PGP Public Key at http://home.bsu.edu/prn/key.html

Thierry Bouche

unread,

Dec 8, 2000, 10:45:25 AM12/8/00

to

Paul Neubauer <p...@bsu.edu> writes:

> I guess that what you see a lot of will depend greatly on the field. I
> see comparatively little Minion

Well, since Bringhurst used Minion, it is almost the default font for
many typography related books & brochures. It is also somwhat overused
by adobe, being its corporate design...

moreover, a growing part of magazines and newspapers switch to Minion,
here in France, when they go for a new layout. the probable
explanation for this is that it is as economical as Times, but adds a
touch of class and distinction. (an other one could be that it's
almost free, being bundled with so many adobe software...)

> I use Minion in an academic journal that I do the prepress
> work for and find it extremely well suited for that purpose.

agreed.

> highly utilitarian, sets very economically, clean, clear, unobtrusive,

the italic is not as nice, though: a bit pedantic with its
pseudo-calligraphic shape, and relatively hard to read.

> "Modern" faces like Didot or Bodoni are good for horror stories, but
> I'd stay away from them for anything of a "warmer" nature.

Amazing to think that one century ago, almost anything was typeset
that way... I think ITC Bodoni is somewhat elegant and warmer than
what you're refering to.

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 8, 2000, 6:58:05 PM12/8/00

to

"Paul Neubauer" <p...@bsu.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.149ac5cfb...@news.bsu.edu...
> In comp.fonts, Thierry...@ujf-grenoble.fr wrote...

>
> I guess that what you see a lot of will depend greatly on the field. I
> see comparatively little Minion (other than what I do myself, that
> is:-).

Actually, Minion is being used as the main body type for 4 newspapers
that I know of in the US and a couple academic newsletters that go out
of University of Toronto. I think it's popular enough and has proven its
worth to those who want a classic-but-not-overly-so look.

> The fonts I do use in the illustrative examples are not likely
> to be the ones you will want to use because they generally lack the
> niceties like text figures, small caps, f-ligatures, decorative
> ligatures, etc.

Ah, so you DO think that Times is the death of it! Hrmmmph! TRAITOR :o)

Andreas Höfeld

unread,

Dec 9, 2000, 3:13:59 AM12/9/00

to

"Apostrophe (')" <apos...@mail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:hAeY5.44962$_5.93...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...

> Ah, so you DO think that Times is the death of it! Hrmmmph! TRAITOR :o)

There are lots of fonts that can do without a fi-ligature. TNR
is not one of them. I HATE IT - Oops, sorry!

Andreas

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 9, 2000, 6:20:12 AM12/9/00

to

"Andreas Höfeld" <a.ho...@firemail.de> wrote in message
news:3a31f79b$0$8786$4dbe...@businessnews.de.uu.net...

>
> There are lots of fonts that can do without a fi-ligature. TNR
> is not one of them. I HATE IT - Oops, sorry!

Not sure which or whose version you're looking at, but all the Adobe and
Monotype Times fonts do have both the fi and fl ligatures. The italics
could certainly use ff ligs though.

Charles Hedrick

unread,

Dec 9, 2000, 6:39:55 PM12/9/00

to

Paul Neubauer <p...@bsu.edu> writes:

>Elegant
>is one of the last adjectives I would apply to Minion, however. It's
>highly utilitarian, sets very economically, clean, clear, unobtrusive,
>contemporary without being trendy, but certainly not elegant.
>Agaramond is much closer to being elegant, but I do see a lot more of
>it than Minion.

Actually, I think being clean, clear, unobtrusive, and contemporary
without being trendy is one pretty good way of being elegant.
Obviously different people find different things elegant. I agree
about Bembo, though more about the hand-set, hot metal version. (In
hot metal, I'd also look at Centaur.) For computer setting, one of
the most elegant fonts I know is Simoncini Garmond, in the Scangraphic
version (because that's the only version with SC/OSF). But for most
of the things I do I'll take clean and unobtrusive. (My preferred
implementation of that ideal is DTL Documenta, though Minion is not
bad.)

Paul Neubauer

unread,

Dec 11, 2000, 12:15:35 PM12/11/00

to

In comp.fonts, "Apostrophe $'$" <apos...@mail.com> wrote...

>"Paul Neubauer" <p...@bsu.edu> wrote in message
>news:MPG.149ac5cfb...@news.bsu.edu...

>> I guess that what you see a lot of will depend greatly on the field. I
>> see comparatively little Minion (other than what I do myself, that
>> is:-).
>
>Actually, Minion is being used as the main body type for 4 newspapers

Very good! Shows good taste, I think. :-) Minion ought to be an
excellent choice for a newspaper face. I think it fulfills all the
design criteria for a newspaper face very well. I was just saying that
*I* haven't seen it used in that sort of application. The papers in my
area are all owned by Dan Quayle's family. (Just to give you a clue
about what my expectations of them are. :-( )

>that I know of in the US and a couple academic newsletters that go out
>of University of Toronto. I think it's popular enough and has proven its
>worth to those who want a classic-but-not-overly-so look.

And as I said, I use it in an academic journal myself. I agree 100%
with your last sentence. It is classic but fresh enough not to look
tired. Whether this particular way of looking classic but fresh meets
the original poster's design criteria is less clear, though.

>> The fonts I do use in the illustrative examples are not likely
>> to be the ones you will want to use because they generally lack the
>> niceties like text figures, small caps, f-ligatures, decorative
>> ligatures, etc.
>
>Ah, so you DO think that Times is the death of it! Hrmmmph! TRAITOR :o)

I must be particularly dense today. It's clear that you are being
witty, but my wits seem to have taken leave of me. The death of what?
Typography? I don't think that. I do find Times inferior to some
other face for just about every use I can think of. I know that you
can purchase at least OSF/SC for Times, but the free version of TNR
that comes with Windows (9x at least) doesn't have them and the
examples on my site refer to the free fonts. I'd almost always
consider Minion, for example, at least as good as Times (NR or
otherwise) for just about anything that Times might be good for and
much else besides.

Andreas Höfeld

unread,

Dec 11, 2000, 5:23:33 PM12/11/00

to

"Apostrophe (')" <apos...@mail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

news:MzoY5.48329$_5.10...@news4.rdc1.on.home.com...

> "Andreas Höfeld" <a.ho...@firemail.de> wrote in message
> news:3a31f79b$0$8786$4dbe...@businessnews.de.uu.net...
> >
> > There are lots of fonts that can do without a fi-ligature. TNR
> > is not one of them. I HATE IT - Oops, sorry!
>
> Not sure which or whose version you're looking at, but all the Adobe and
> Monotype Times fonts do have both the fi and fl ligatures. The italics
> could certainly use ff ligs though.

I was speaking of Times New Roman the Windows core font which
badly needs a fi ligature, only under Windows you cannot use it in
a standard wordprocessor.

Andreas

Thomas Lotze

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 5:04:25 AM12/12/00

to

Hi all,

first let me thanks you for all the responses so far.

Paul Neubauer wrote:
>
> >I think it's popular enough and has proven its
> >worth to those who want a classic-but-not-overly-so look.
>
> And as I said, I use it in an academic journal myself. I agree 100%
> with your last sentence. It is classic but fresh enough not to look
> tired. Whether this particular way of looking classic but fresh meets
> the original poster's design criteria is less clear, though.

I think it does, in it's way ;o) I have Bringhurst's book myself, and
thus having seen Minion "in action", I quite like it.

By "in it's way", I mean that I actually was looking for something
really close to Garamond though it is only one of several typefaces
I like, Minion being among them.

As for the decision about what font to buy, I'm confused now -
I think among the Garamond's, Adobe Garamond would be my choice,
but do I still insist on a strictly Garamond-like one?? ;o)

> I do find Times inferior to some
> other face for just about every use I can think of.

Agreed.

BTW, Paul, your typography pages are very good. Congratulations!

Greetings, Thomas

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 7:46:58 AM12/12/00

to

"Paul Neubauer" <p...@bsu.edu> wrote in message

news:MPG.149ed5c63...@news.bsu.edu...

>
> *I* haven't seen it used in that sort of application. The papers in my
> area are all owned by Dan Quayle's family. (Just to give you a clue
> about what my expectations of them are. :-( )

All Microgamma for body? :o)

> >Ah, so you DO think that Times is the death of it! Hrmmmph! TRAITOR
:o)
>
> I must be particularly dense today. It's clear that you are being
> witty, but my wits seem to have taken leave of me. The death of what?
> Typography?

Yep, there's been an anti-tech streak going around with something to
that effect (meaning that typography died the day Times was first
digitized). Times is a great font, but it was everyone's punching bag
for the longest time. Font designers studied it too much. Then almost
every Times-like font out there became a proposed mistake elimination.
Personally, I like Times a lot, because it's still one solid credible
piece of history. Font design nowadays is so different than the old
typography. The only charm left from back then is the use of the words
"typography", "foundry" and "type". My cynical opinion anyhow.

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 7:56:15 AM12/12/00

to

"Thomas Lotze" <T.L...@tpi.uni-jena.de> wrote in message

news:3A35F8...@tpi.uni-jena.de...

>
> As for the decision about what font to buy, I'm confused now -
> I think among the Garamond's, Adobe Garamond would be my choice,
> but do I still insist on a strictly Garamond-like one?? ;o)

Realistically speaking, no. Most versions that were developed with the
original outlines in mind were ones where the font designer was too
consumed with their task of faith to worry about the functionality of
the type. Stempel Garamond is not bad in functionality AND faith to a
certain extent, but it lacks all the extras.

I'd tell you to pick Berthold's Garamond over Adobe's, but Berthold's
licensing is very restrictive.

Quanta

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 11:41:12 AM12/12/00

to

I an not sure what you mean by "... only under Windows you cannot use it
in a standard wordprocessor...."

With MS WinWord 2000, the fi ligature can be inserted using 'insert
symbol'. Autocorrect can be set up to insert it. e.g. I have fi/ set to
be replaced by that ligature fo that fi/sh gives fish with the fi
ligature. This process is complicated by the fact that it its location
differs and some fonts do not have the ligature at al.

-Tom

"Andreas Höfeld" <a.ho...@firemail.de> wrote in message

news:3a355b71$0$8789$4dbe...@businessnews.de.uu.net...
: "Apostrophe (')" <apos...@mail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag

:

T. Lotze

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 12:47:45 PM12/12/00

to

"Apostrophe (')" wrote:
> I'd tell you to pick Berthold's Garamond over Adobe's, but Berthold's
> licensing is very restrictive.

Somehow I must have missed out on that one during my earlier
searches for Garamond based faces :o(

What puzzles me about it is that it is referred to as an Adobe
Berthold font; since it is not to be found at Adobe's site,
what does it have to do with Adobe? Is it in some way based on
Adobe Garamond?

Another thing: Berthold's site ( http://www.berthold.de and
http://www.bertholdtypes.com ) don't give complete samples of
the font. Where can I find out about its whole set of glyphs?

Cheers,

RSD99

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 2:24:10 PM12/12/00

to

Re: "... What puzzles me about it is that it is referred to as an Adobe

Berthold font; since it is not to be found at Adobe's site,
what does it have to do with Adobe? Is it in some way based on

Adobe Garamond? ..."

FWIW: See the 'article' about Berthold on Apostrophe(')'s site
L'ab: http://members.home.net/apostrophe

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 3:33:55 PM12/12/00

to

"RSD99" <rsdwla...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:uXuZ5.580$Lo2.1...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...

That whole section is gone from my site. Took it down to accomodate
space/structure, plus I didn't have much time to be opinionated anymore
:o)

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 12, 2000, 3:49:54 PM12/12/00

to

"T. Lotze" <p...@tpi.uni-jena.de> wrote in message
news:3A3664C1...@tpi.uni-jena.de...

>
> Somehow I must have missed out on that one during my earlier
> searches for Garamond based faces :o(

It's a good one too, if only because it was Lange's work. He's an old
master typographer and he's been through it all.

> What puzzles me about it is that it is referred to as an Adobe
> Berthold font; since it is not to be found at Adobe's site,
> what does it have to do with Adobe? Is it in some way based on
> Adobe Garamond?

Not at all. But the old Berthold in Germany had an arrangement with
Adobe to exchange technical expertise for licensing programs. So it was
Adobe's technical work on Lange's letters. Berthold also had quite a few
licensing deals with Agfa and a few other outfits. But after the old
Berthold got sold, the new owners (Harvey and Melissa Hunt in Chicago)
went on a legal rampage, sued a few companies (Melissa Hunt is an
attorney), stopped licensing to outside distributors, and adopted
exclusivity (I still have a hard time believing that they have the nerve
to display the old Adobe package numbers on the fonts they're marketing
at their site). They also revamped their user licensing to an
insultingly restrictive point.

I used to love Berthold fonts. Now I cringe at the mention of their
name. They just released a 23-font Futura pack. Anyone remembers that
yack we had here about Futura and how many places have knocked it off?

> Another thing: Berthold's site ( http://www.berthold.de and
> http://www.bertholdtypes.com ) don't give complete samples of
> the font. Where can I find out about its whole set of glyphs?

unread,

Dec 13, 2000, 1:11:16 PM12/13/00

to

"RSD99" <rsdwla...@gte.net> wrote in message

news:GxwZ5.706$Lo2.1...@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...

> Pity - it was a good article!
>
> How about posting a copy to this thread?
>

I'm pasting from an html back-up, so pardon the html inclusion here.

Also note that around the end of May it was communicated to me that when
the original Berthold were sinking, the owners tried to "make the most
of it" by selling the same assets to three different companies. The
Hunts were one entity, Primafonts were another. The third entity is a
German company whose name I will not enclose here. That German spot is
still displaying and availing a lot of the original Berthold fonts for
sale.

April 11, 2000 - Berthold Goes Bonkers
The good news is that they brought Günter Gerhard Lange on board again,
as artistic consultant. This can be read about in press releases on the
Berthold web site (which has been finally updated after about a year of
silence - but watch out; it's still full of errors).

The bad news is that the Berthold folks continue with their legal action
threats and intimidation. Their latest targets were Agfa and PrimaFonts.
This has resulted in the elimination of Berthold offerings by Agfa
Monotype and the Creative Alliance.

The Agfa story was first reported online by Fontzone's Clive Bruton (all
links to Fontzone have been removed, because Mr. Bruton has been
reversing them):
"Agfa Monotype is to cease distribution of the Berthold library after
litigation from the trademark owner, Berthold Types." writes Fontzone's
Clive Bruton in his publicly-available article. "A press release from
Berthold Types indicates that a 'court enforced' judgement lead to the
pull-out by Agfa-Monotype stated to be in force from 31 December, 1999.
However Monotype sources have privately been telling customers, since
early summer, that the company would no longer be distributing that part
of the Berthold collection contained within the Adobe Library
distribution - approximately 360 fonts out of the 800 strong Berthold
catalogue. Shipping versions of Monotype CD collections have been devoid
of the Berthold fonts for some time. It would seem that they welcome
this final cutting of ties between the two companies. Berthold Types
cites 'breach of contract, trademark infringement, unfair competition
and deceptive trade practices', but does not divulge any instances of
these claims. This apparent victory by Berthold Types is tainted by its
ever decreasing distribution channel. Earlier this year the company also
took action against partnership Freydank Koerbis Pillich Talke GbR. The
once highly regarded Berthold name has been through several changes of
hands in the last few years, and has been in decline since the
elimination of its world class typesetting hardware due to the rise of
desktop workstations."

The press release from Berthold about PrimaFont was:
Chicago, Illinois (January 25, 2000) - As a result of legal action taken
by Berthold Types Limited, PrimaFont International of Germany agreed to
immediately cease the unauthorized sales of more than 300 Berthold
typefaces from the PrimaFont CD-ROM, which also includes typefaces from
other type foundries including Adobe, Agfa, Bauer Types, Bitstream, ITC,
Letraset, Linotype and Monotype. PrimaFont infringed upon the trademark
rights of Berthold Types by employing a "compatibility list" to identify
the true names of the typefaces that PrimaFont sold using false names.
"Berthold Types actively seeks to prevent the use of compatibility lists
as such use has gone unchecked in the type industry," stated Melissa
Hunt, Vice President & General Counsel for Berthold Types. Adding: "The
use of compatibility lists causes as much damage in the type industry as
any other form of font piracy." This most recent success in Berthold
Types' continued aggressive anti-piracy efforts means that PrimaFont
must remove the Berthold typefaces from the PrimaFont CD-ROM. In
addition, PrimaFont agreed never to sell or deal in any products that
contain Berthold's typefaces and to pay Berthold an undisclosed sum.

As far as anyone knew, PrimaFont had purchased, and were the rightful
owners of Berthold types. The above press release sounds like a coverup
of legal intimidation based on long-term financial projections. And the
logic of compatibility lists being a problem is quite flawed. By
applying that logic, one can assume that if Berthold were to manufacture
industry-standard incadescent light bulbs, they would sue anyone who
dared to compare the output of their lightbulb to the BQ wattage. And if
they were a dairy, they just wouldn't sit still for anyone suggesting
that you could use margarine instead of butter. One would presume that
they would want to educate consumers as to the superiority of their
products instead of censuring and suing.

The latest example of the Hunts' attitude towards their customer base
and their intelligence is in the so called 'new' release of the Standard
set. To call this a 'new' release and to issue it and charge prior
customers money for it is insulting at best, not to mention a knockoff
of their own library. Standard was the name Berthold used for Akzidenz
Grotesk when it was marketed as metal type in english speaking
countries. There were no other differences. In this case, they have
added a Euro symbol and changed the name, so that users will hopefully
be lulled into paying $249 for what amounts to an added glyph that every
other major foundry offers at no charge. For some, this is an indicator
of how low the new Berthold will stoop for a dollar.

They also go way over the line in their legal notice section here, which
proceeds to say that if you communicate to them an idea that has
anything to do with Berthold fonts, they have all the rights to the
idea:
"Viewer Feedback and Suggestions - All information, feedback, data,
questions, comments or suggestions regarding the content of this
publication or other publication of H. Berthold and made by you or any
viewer of this publication will not be considered confidential. You
agree that H. Berthold will have all rights to reproduce, disclose,
distribute and otherwise use any such response for any purpose
whatsoever including, but not limited to, developing, manufacturing and
marketing products based upon any such responses."

In their rather bizarre licensing scheme here they have some other
unusual statements and claims that are highly restrictive:
1) The license is non-exclusive & non-transferable, so you cannot
re-sell it or donate it as with 99% of computer software (assuming you
destroy any copies you have).
2) You cannot embed the font in ANY document - so no postscript file to
the printer.
3) This one is really nuts: "YOU may use the PRODUCT only at the address
stated in the payment information you will complete to process your
order". Better not move, Better not have an office address different
from your credit card info, and better chain your laptop to a desk at
the address cited on your credit card. If that's not insulting, I don't
know what is.
4) Although they are not alone, here's one that always cracks me up.
Even if you buy from them, agree to all of these conditions, and receive
your fonts from them, you still have to snail-mail or email them a
registration if you want any upgrade offer. Haven't these companies ever
heard of customer service? Apparently not.
5) And after you go through the exquisitely satisfying experience of
buying from them, they proceed to really top off the sale with this
statement (which is sort of like flipping you off for buying from them):
"The entire risk with respect to the quality and performance of the
PRODUCT rests upon YOU."

Burning bridges, whether with industry or customers, can't be good. It's
only a matter of time before the numbers speak for themselves.

RSD99

unread,

Dec 13, 2000, 1:27:04 PM12/13/00

to

unread,

Dec 15, 2000, 3:37:24 AM12/15/00

to

x...@example.com (John Jordan) writes:

> Have you looked at Adobe's new font, Warnock Pro

what about Hoefler text?

Thierry Bouche

unread,

Dec 15, 2000, 3:50:12 AM12/15/00

to

"Apostrophe $'$" <apos...@mail.com> writes:

> 2000 pairs is way too revealing about how bad the spacing is.

sure. This number of pairs is usually computer-generated, so there is
no reason for which they should enhance the quality of the font...

Good side-bearings in the first place, and kerns to correct few
discrepancies, but in fact, with computer typesetting, there is no
reason not to suppress the notion of side-bearing, and only use
relative spacing on a charachter-charachter basis. This is what does
Indy's optical kerning option in some sense. I feel that it may
improve drastically essentially non-kerned fonts like linotype's, but
sometimes loosen well spaced fonts.

It's funny how many font suppliers insist on the number of kerns as a
quality indicator. It's often a proof that the design was not properly
achieved. On an other hand, the 700-800 pairs per fonts in Utopia or
Minion would jump to something near to 2000 if all the included
charachters were taken into consideration (especially foreign
ones...) -- they should.

> Adobe and Monotype, for instance, never kerned an
> accented character in their whole library,

Shame on them for that!

> but things still look decent
> because of the great spacing

in fact, not kerning è is better than kern it as if it were an e (an
idea that many programmers seem to have had or even implemented). But
sometimes, è should be kerned out where e is kerned in (Te vs Tè, fi
vs fî, etc.) I claim that font vendors that don't do this are stealing
the sheeps!

> And of course, some good fonts don't need kerning at all.

especially monospace fonts ;-)

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 15, 2000, 9:47:46 AM12/15/00

to

"John Jordan" <x...@example.com> wrote in message
news:3ab735d9....@news.spiretech.com...

>
> Have you looked at Adobe's new font, Warnock Pro (named after Adobe's
> CEO, John Warnock)? That's what I'm going to buy and use for my next
> project, I think. It will probably be some months before my that
> happens, though.

Warnock Pro seems alright, though I'm not crazy about the F (too
straight-up), Q (tail stroke's awkward) and S (bottom looks all wrong).
Also its overall appearance seems like a very conscious effort at
"modern typography" (mixing slabs, serifs and humanist ends), which
would stand out to the reader. It would certainly not be a good
replacement for, say, a Garamond or anything of the Garalde style. Also
the italic characters seem too edgy and lacking in curve when compared
with the non-italic fonts.

Apostrophe (')

unread,

Dec 15, 2000, 9:57:28 AM12/15/00

to

"Thierry Bouche" <Thierry...@ujf-grenoble.fr> wrote in message

news:sk66km2...@mozart.ujf-grenoble.Fr...

> x...@example.com (John Jordan) writes:
>
> > Have you looked at Adobe's new font, Warnock Pro
>
> what about Hoefler text?

Too dark for print, I think. And too Times-like to be a good replacement
for any Garamond.

margare...@my-deja.com

unread,

Dec 15, 2000, 10:29:30 AM12/15/00

to

In article <3A2F66...@tpi.uni-jena.de>,
Thomas Lotze <T.L...@tpi.uni-jena.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm using TeX for all my printed stuff, which includes
> scientific documents (with a lot of maths) as well as "normal"
> texts which consist of prose only, and have non-scientific
> content. TeX comes with its own, very rich family of Computer
> Modern fonts which are ideally suitable for most things I do,
> but not all.
>
> I consider buying some font for use in some of my texts,
> e.g. lyric texts don't go too well with the same fonts that
> are appropriate for mathematical documents. I thought about
> Garamond or Janson, but I'm still open to suggestions. What
> font would you recommend that has a very rich set of glyphs,
> special characters (ornaments, but also math symbols), maybe
> alternate glyphs, good expert character sets (small caps,
> oldstyle figures) etc? Also, there should be possible a
> combination with a sans-serif and a typewriter font that have
> similar properties (I want to buy the serif font first as it's
> most important.)
>
> Of course, I wouldn't mind if there was a free solution, but
> I don't think so...
>
> As for Garamond: There are a lot of, say, implemetations, even
> Adobe's Garamond collection alone is confusing enough (to me).
> Which Garamond is the richest in glyphs, and which one is
> closest to the original?
>
> Thanks and greetings, Thomas

>
> --
> Thomas Lotze - thomas.lotze@gmx.<CUT-IT>.net
>
> http://www.thomas-lotze.de http://www.bannertausch-b150.de
> http://thestories.cjb.net
>

Thanks for that.

Mags

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

Charles Hedrick

unread,

Dec 19, 2000, 8:28:38 PM12/19/00

to

Thierry Bouche <Thierry...@ujf-grenoble.fr> writes:

>what about Hoefler text?

I started out to order it and stopped because of some problem with the
license. Since I can't see any way to show the license without
actually doing an order, I can't confirm it, but I believe they
prohibited embedding the font in PDF. I can't use fonts with that
restriction, since PDF is the main way I distribute documents.

louisvo...@my-deja.com

unread,

Dec 31, 2000, 11:09:31 AM12/31/00

to

There are clear alternatives to CM these days, complete with math fonts.

For a comparison of some of these, see

http://www.yandy.com/options.htm

Regards, Louis.

In article <3A30C84B...@gmx.net>,
Thomas Lotze <thomas...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Thierry Bouche wrote:
>
> > But if you're OK for having a
> > good text font and making maths fonts from that + honestly matching
> > math glyphs (from MathTime or CM depending on your font weight),
> > you've some choice.
>
> I think that's ok as the CM fonts are so rich for maths display, being
> designed for the purpose, that other fonts will have a hard time matching
> CM with respect to maths anyway (well, I don't know too much about
> MathTime, maybe that comes close).
>
> > What makes me uncomfortable in your request is
> > both lyric & scientific with the same font.
>
> Hm, that's not exacly the intention. Only, I probably can't afford to buy
> several families at once, so I wanted to have one that fits well in as many
> situations as possible. But then, I'll probably use CM for most scientific
> texts anyway. I just didn't want to buy a font that doesn't work for maths
> at all.
>
> > [Plantin] ... Less elegant than a true Renaissance text font, though...
>
> Exactly my impression. Having to choose, I'd tend to the more elegant
> one; as said before, lyric texts are what I want that font for while the
> scientific stuff still goes well with CM.
>
> > [discussion on Garamond]
>
> Hm, many to choose from... I'll take another look at them. Probably I have
> to decide which looks most elegant to me, in the end. To what degree is
> this a question of taste, anyway? I mean, are there good (typographical)
> reasons to choose one version over the other?
>
> Thanks for the long and extensive answers so far.
>
> Cheers, Thomas

Charles Hedrick

unread,

Jan 1, 2001, 1:21:19 PM1/1/01

to

>>> > [Plantin] ... Less elegant than a true Renaissance text font, though...

If you like Plantin, but want something more elegant, consider Galliard.
It is based on the same Granjon originals, but is closer to the original
and a lot more elegant. I think it requires a high resolution output
device however.