amiga emulator for PC?
MUR...@caedm.et.byu.edu
typical ftp sites with no luck.
Thanks,
Mike
Alan L.M. Buxey
: does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
thats because you would never_ever find one.
1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
real time.
2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
.. and those reasons are just for starters.
Maybe, when the Amiga is sold to its new owners, some hardware board
containing the chipset etc will be released....until then, NO CHANCE! :)
BTW, post your request onto c.s.a.advocacy to get _major_ email response
;)
alan
From Alan, replies appreciated!___ __ _ __ ___ _
.----------------------. ///\\ |\\ /| || // ` /\\ __ __ 32
| Alan Buxey | __ /// \\ | \\ /|| ||(( __ / \\ // ||\\
|kc...@uk.ac.susx.solx1| \\\///--- \\l \/ ll ll \\_ll/--- \\ \\_ ||//
`----------------------' \XX/Amiga - The Reason That God Created Silica!
mval...@draco.lnec.pt
: MUR...@caedm.et.byu.edu wrote:
: : does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
: : typical ftp sites with no luck.
: thats because you would never_ever find one.
WRONG.
: 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
: real time.
The C64 also uses custom chips but there are several PC emulators for it.
: 2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
: 3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
What does that have to do with it ? The Mac uses the same CPU and there's
Executor emulating a Mac on the PC.
The question if emulation speed is another issue :-)
C U!
Mario Valente
Erik Lundevall
>Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
>: 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
>: real time.
> The C64 also uses custom chips but there are several PC emulators for it.
A C64 != an Amiga, they do not use the same custom chips. The ability to
emulate a C64 on a PC have nothing to do with the ability to emulate an
Amiga. Commodore made both of them, but that is just about the only thing
in common.
--
-Erik Lundevall
WWW: http://www.nada.kth.se/~ludde/index.html
Your fault. Core dumped.
Paul J Hollander
>Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
>: MUR...@caedm.et.byu.edu wrote:
>: : does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
>: : typical ftp sites with no luck.
>
>: thats because you would never_ever find one.
>
> WRONG.
Never *is* a long time. AFAIK, there is no such emulator available at
the present time. Satisfactory?
Paul Hollander phol...@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
Alan L.M. Buxey
: Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
: : 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
: : real time.
: The C64 also uses custom chips but there are several PC emulators for it.
the C64 wasnt even running at 4Mhz though - and was only 8-bit...
: What does that have to do with it ? The Mac uses the same CPU and there's
: Executor emulating a Mac on the PC.
the Macs CPU does basically everything. This is not the same as the
Amiga. the CPU in an Amiga does calculations and memory addressing and
thats about all. In the A1200 alice does all graphics operations, paula
does the sound, lisa does the memory checking and IO operations etc etc.
- all are seperate and barely communicate.
: The question if emulation speed is another issue :-)
no, if the emulator cannot correlate the custom chips with the 680x0
chip at the _same time_ (THATS the Amigas power - the custom chips dont
care bugger all about the CPU...) then the whole machine goes down. If
you cant emulate the 680x0 in real time then its bye bye.
And another thing. the PC floppy cannot possibly read an Amiga's disk
->> the hardware is incapable of this.
Ronald Watkins
: : does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
: : typical ftp sites with no luck.
: thats because you would never_ever find one.
: 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
: real time.
: 2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
: 3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
Actually, the PowerPC emulates an '040 in real time. Because the
chips are well-designed and make sense, the Motorola 680x0 chips are
relatively easy to emulate at speed.
The graphics chips are tougher, admittedly... but not
impossible. The XF2 emulator does a bangup job of the ANTIC chip, which
is a predecessor to the Amiga chipset.
I'll bet the amiga would be emulatable by the end of '95...
'course, it'll take another year to work the bugs out. (at least. :) )
I loved my Amiga. I'd love to be able to run some of those games
again.... :)
--
Ron Watkins, aka <<MALOR>> | "In times of crisis, it is of utmost
All opinions are my own: | importance to keep one's head."
imbibe with sodium chloride! :) | -- M. Anoinette
Jason Tyler Davidson
: Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
: : MUR...@caedm.et.byu.edu wrote:
: : : does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
: : : typical ftp sites with no luck.
: : thats because you would never_ever find one.
: : 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
: : real time.
: : 2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
: : 3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
: Actually, the PowerPC emulates an '040 in real time. Because the
: chips are well-designed and make sense, the Motorola 680x0 chips are
: relatively easy to emulate at speed.
: The graphics chips are tougher, admittedly... but not
: impossible. The XF2 emulator does a bangup job of the ANTIC chip, which
: is a predecessor to the Amiga chipset.
: I'll bet the amiga would be emulatable by the end of '95...
: 'course, it'll take another year to work the bugs out. (at least. :) )
: I loved my Amiga. I'd love to be able to run some of those games
: again.... :)
Emulator is very possible for the PC. You would put the AGA chip on a
card and the ROMs on the card. Emulate the Amiga sound via Sound Blaster
and the Mottorola processor via software and the disks would be virtual
disks. So it would be part hardware, part software. PC Joystick = Amiga
Joystick, PC mouse = Amiga Mouse, PC modem = Amiga modem ports, PC
printer ports = Amiga Printer ports.
This is how you do it folks! Pop in a card in your PC with a buch of
custom Amiga chips and the rest of the emulation via software, this is
how its done!
:wq
: --
Alan L.M. Buxey
: The graphics chips are tougher, admittedly... but not
: impossible. The XF2 emulator does a bangup job of the ANTIC chip, which
: is a predecessor to the Amiga chipset.
the ANTIC chip? the Amiga chipset had no predecessor -> only what was
found in the A1000. And that is 4 custom chips -> not just one.
: I'll bet the amiga would be emulatable by the end of '95...
: 'course, it'll take another year to work the bugs out. (at least. :) )
i bet it wont be. The only chance on other computers running Amiga
software is if the Amiga licence is changed to allow clones to be made.
: I loved my Amiga. I'd love to be able to run some of those games
: again.... :)
then get an A1200. they only cost $300 :)
(and you'll be suprised by the difference that AGA and OS3.0 make to how
seriously the machine can be taken!!)
Alan L.M. Buxey
: Emulator is very possible for the PC. You would put the AGA chip on a
: card and the ROMs on the card. Emulate the Amiga sound via Sound Blaster
: and the Mottorola processor via software and the disks would be virtual
: disks. So it would be part hardware, part software. PC Joystick = Amiga
: Joystick, PC mouse = Amiga Mouse, PC modem = Amiga modem ports, PC
: printer ports = Amiga Printer ports.
: This is how you do it folks! Pop in a card in your PC with a buch of
: custom Amiga chips and the rest of the emulation via software, this is
: how its done!
1) the 68000 has to be exactly coordinated with the custom chips - there
is no wait state for them...
2) the PC disk drive is physically unable to read an Amiga floppy.
3) the joystick would have to be digital, NOT analogue.
4) (the most difficult) You cannot use the AGA chips. as they are copyright.
By the time you have your card, add the diskdrive, add the osund etc,
the bill would be big enough to buy at least 1.5 A1200s!! (not exactly
the idea for an emulator..
Vladimir Elberg
: I think it is senseless to put some custom Amiga chips on a PC board.
: They won't work without the rest of the Amiga hardware.
: But I think a complete software emulation of the Amiga should be
: possible similarly as a C64 can be emulated on a PC.
: Of course emulating an Amiga takes more cpu ressources than emulating
: a c64.
It will not work in software only, it will be too slow. I have also seen this
done on the Gemulator, so they guy is right, its the ONLY real inexpensive way
to do it, software only is crazy and too slow. Putting some hardware on a card
and some in software is the BEST way to do it....
Vladimir Elberg
: is no wait state for them...
: 2) the PC disk drive is physically unable to read an Amiga floppy.
: 3) the joystick would have to be digital, NOT analogue.
: 4) (the most difficult) You cannot use the AGA chips. as they are copyright.
: By the time you have your card, add the diskdrive, add the osund etc,
: the bill would be big enough to buy at least 1.5 A1200s!! (not exactly
: the idea for an emulator..
Have you ever used an emulator before? I have and I have seen emulators done
just like the above, one is called Gemulator and its an Atari 1040 ST Emulator
that is part hardware and part software I think this is what he is reffering
too. I have seen it done, put the AGA chips in hardware and emulate the 68000
using PC software (using the 486,P5,H6, etc...). The disk drive is in virtual
disks, do you know what one is? Its a file that is a file outside the
emulator, but a disk inside the emulator. Sound,Processor and mouse, Joysticks
and such could be used on the PC to emulate the Amiga, Like he said it could be
done and yes it is the most effecient way to do it....
It would cost about 90 bucks a pop and thats way less than a 1200 would cost
right now... The company that bought out the rights too all the amiga stuff
could put out this product and get a ton of money. Most Amiga users own a PC,
so this should be the way the new company should go. Then they can develop the
new things for Amiga, such as a Power PC Amiga.
Johan Forsberg
>: MUR...@caedm.et.byu.edu wrote:
>: : does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some
of the
>: : typical ftp sites with no luck.
>
>: thats because you would never_ever find one.
>
> WRONG.
emulator in the year 2010...
>
>: 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
>: real time.
>
> The C64 also uses custom chips but there are several PC emulators for
it.
The quote says: REAL TIME!!!
Even a pentium couldn't emulate the Amigas custom chip in anything
aproaching real time.
>: 2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little
endian)
>: 3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
> What does that have to do with it ? The Mac uses the same CPU and
there's
> Executor emulating a Mac on the PC.
Have you actually tried out Executor??
BW only, performance like a 10 year old Mac...
> Mario Valente
Johan Forsberg
Juergen Weber
> : I loved my Amiga. I'd love to be able to run some of those games
> : again.... :)
> Emulator is very possible for the PC. You would put the AGA chip on a
> card and the ROMs on the card. Emulate the Amiga sound via Sound Blaster
> and the Mottorola processor via software and the disks would be virtual
> disks. So it would be part hardware, part software. PC Joystick = Amiga
> Joystick, PC mouse = Amiga Mouse, PC modem = Amiga modem ports, PC
> printer ports = Amiga Printer ports.
>
> This is how you do it folks! Pop in a card in your PC with a buch of
> custom Amiga chips and the rest of the emulation via software, this is
> how its done!
>
I think it is senseless to put some custom Amiga chips on a PC board.
They won't work without the rest of the Amiga hardware.
But I think a complete software emulation of the Amiga should be
possible similarly as a C64 can be emulated on a PC.
Of course emulating an Amiga takes more cpu ressources than emulating
a c64.
--
Juergen G. Weber Imagine, the year is '94 and
Student of Computer Science there are still Dinos using
University of Stuttgart - Germany Dos and Windows instead of OS/2
Maxwell Daymon
: In <31nogr$3r...@cygnus.lnec.pt> mval...@draco.lnec.pt () writes:
: >Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
: >: 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
: >: real time.
: > The C64 also uses custom chips but there are several PC emulators for it.
: A C64 != an Amiga, they do not use the same custom chips. The ability to
: emulate a C64 on a PC have nothing to do with the ability to emulate an
: Amiga. Commodore made both of them, but that is just about the only thing
: in common.
1) It TAKES at least a 486DX266 to emulate a C64 at full speed with
decent compatibility (even it doesn't work all the time). That's a 1MHz
machine with VERY simple chips.
2) If you want to be very technical, Commodore didn't design the Amiga
custom chips, or even the Amiga. They sold it. Amiga, Inc. made the chips.
3) The Amiga chips are THOUSANDS of times more complex than the C64 chips.
--
// | "NEVER EVER mess with a PCB jumper you don't
// Maxwell Daymon | understand, even if it's labelled 'SEX AND
\\ // mda...@rmii.com | FREE BEER'."
\X/ | -- Dave Haynie
Vladimir Elberg
: 1) It TAKES at least a 486DX266 to emulate a C64 at full speed with
: decent compatibility (even it doesn't work all the time). That's a 1MHz
: machine with VERY simple chips.
: 2) If you want to be very technical, Commodore didn't design the Amiga
: custom chips, or even the Amiga. They sold it. Amiga, Inc. made the chips.
: 3) The Amiga chips are THOUSANDS of times more complex than the C64 chips.
What emulator do you run? A BASIC programmed one? I am using a commodore 64
emulator and it ran fine on my old 386 and works great on a 386-25, on a 486-33
that I have it will run too fast and I have to slow it down and put it on
original speed. An Amiga Emulator could be done as I have said a thousand
times, half hardware, half software, very simple....
Vladimir Elberg
: mval...@draco.lnec.pt () writes:
: It's a grave mistake to think of the Amiga as just a 68000 with a few
: custom chips attached. That's true enough, but ignores the fact that
: one of those chips, the Copper, is a CPU in its own right. Not a very
: powerful one (its instruction set is only four or five instructions),
: but a CPU anyhow - and the Copper can change the operation of the
: system, including the 68000, itself. As the 68000 can change the
: operation of the Copper itself. And both of those can be synched with
: the display in a manner which is nearly impossible to do on a PC.
: Without begin able to do all of those things, and to enforce the timing
: between Copper and 68000, you simply cannot do some of the things the
: Amiga is capable of.
: All of this is in addition to the fact that there are many things the
: Amiga can do, even leaving the Copper out of it, that no PC in existance
: can do, period, simply because the PC hardware does not allow it.
: You can't, for example, read an Amiga floppy on the PC, simply because
: the PC floppy hardware will not allow it.
I bet you $100 bucks it could be done, I have seen it done for the PC. A PC
Emulating the 1040 ST in REALTIME.
I dont want to flame anyone, but it seems that posts are going right over your
head. To emulate the Amiga's floppy drives all you need is a virtual disk, I
have used emulators before; Apple ][,Commdore 64, Atari 8-bit, and Atari ST
and as well as the Executor Mac emulator and they do really well, better than
the normal computers that they came off of as far as speed is conserned and yes
there are consessions, like the MAC is in B/W and such, but still.
I have seen it done, Commodore UK if they buy out the Amiga stuff, could
actually get tons of money, if they made a hybrid of software and hardware
emulation. Put the AGA,COPPER chips and such in hardware (NO EMULATION
NEEDED), EMULATE THE CPU AND SOUND IN SOFTWARE. ALLOW PC JOYSTICKS EMULATE
AMIGA JOYSTICKS, PC USE FOR AMIGA MOUSE, MODEM AND PRINTER SUPPORT ARE POSSIBLE
AS WELL. AMIGA FLOPPY DRIVES ARE VIRTUAL DISKS AND BINGO, YOU HAVE A AMIGA
EMULATOR THAT YOU COULD BUY FROM THE OWNER OF THE AMIGA AND THE CHIPS AND THEY
COULD GET ENOUGH MONEY FROM THE SALES OF THE EMULATOR TO MAKE ADVANCENMENTS
TOWARDS A POWER PC AMIGA. DO YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THIS, OR SHOULD I PUT IT IN
STONE.
IT CAN BE DONE IN SOFTWARE/HARDWARE, BUT IT IS IMPOSSBLE TO DO IN JUST SOFTWARE
ALONE AND TOO EXPENSIVE TO DO HARDWARE ALONE, BUT COMBINING THE BEST OF BOTH
COULD BE DONE EASILY AND WITH MORE COMPATABILITY AND LESS EXSPENSIVE. THIS IS
WHAT I WOULD START WORKING ON IF I WAS THE NEW OWNER OF THE AMIGA AND ITS
CHIPS.
Guru
> Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
> : MUR...@caedm.et.byu.edu wrote:
> : : does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
> : : typical ftp sites with no luck.
There is no such thing as an Amiga emulator for the PC.
>
> : 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
> : real time.
>
The custom chips are a major factor that prvents such an emulation from
taking form. Just the Copper Chip in the Amiga sends out blanking signals and
interupts that a Pentium would have trouble keeping up with.
>
> : 2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
> : 3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
It is possible for a Pentium to emulation a Motorola 680x0 processor
(see Macintosh emulation), but a Macintosh is basically just a CPU and a disk
drive controller & gfx card so it is easy to emulate.
To emulate an Amiga would require extra hardware, because much of the
Amiga's internal hardware operates in parallel, and no matter how fast of a
processor you get, it will be almost impossible to emulate a parallel
architecture.
---
Gene Ruebsamen
+ Computer Dept. Chair, ERA Champion Realty. +
Email: gdrue...@vmsa.is.csupomona.edu
The views that I express are not necessarily those of my employer.
Guru
> card and the ROMs on the card. Emulate the Amiga sound via Sound Blaster
> and the Mottorola processor via software and the disks would be virtual
> disks. So it would be part hardware, part software. PC Joystick = Amiga
> Joystick, PC mouse = Amiga Mouse, PC modem = Amiga modem ports, PC
> printer ports = Amiga Printer ports.
>
> This is how you do it folks! Pop in a card in your PC with a buch of
> custom Amiga chips and the rest of the emulation via software, this is
> how its done!
>
>
> :wq
>
>
> : --
> : Ron Watkins, aka <<MALOR>> | "In times of crisis, it is of utmost
> : All opinions are my own: | importance to keep one's head."
> : imbibe with sodium chloride! :) | -- M. Anoinette
Yes it will work, but it will never happen. The Amiga chipset is
patented.
A much eaiser way that is available now is to buy an Amiga (such as an
Amiga 4000), and get either a bridgeboard (486 @ 50mhz) or get a software
emualtion such as PC-Task.
Obviously the Bridgeboard will be more efficient, and much much faster.
And will use 0 CPU time on the amiga side all while multitasking seamlessly
with the Amiga.
If one must run both Amiga/IBM in the same box, the ONLY solution is to
buy an Amiga and get a PC emulator.
Erik Lundevall
>Ronald Watkins (rwat...@crl.com) wrote:
>: impossible. The XF2 emulator does a bangup job of the ANTIC chip, which
>: is a predecessor to the Amiga chipset.
>the ANTIC chip? the Amiga chipset had no predecessor -> only what was
>found in the A1000. And that is 4 custom chips -> not just one.
Guess what name the Amiga chips and the Atari chips have in common?
Jay Miner. Although there might be substantial differences, Jay proabaly
did have some ideas from the work he did for Atari.
Timo Haanp{{ UPR
>I bet you $100 bucks it could be done, I have seen it done for the PC. A PC
>Emulating the 1040 ST in REALTIME.
If it was real time, it must have been a hardware emulator.
With adequate hardware you can emulate a Silicon Graphics
Indy on a HP calculator. It might cost a few bucks, though.
>I dont want to flame anyone, but it seems that posts are going right over your
>head. To emulate the Amiga's floppy drives all you need is a virtual disk, I
>have used emulators before; Apple ][,Commdore 64, Atari 8-bit, and Atari ST
>and as well as the Executor Mac emulator and they do really well, better than
>the normal computers that they came off of as far as speed is conserned and yes
>there are consessions, like the MAC is in B/W and such, but still.
I think the disk drive problem was just an example. There are
lots of other restrictions, too, the biggest being the
impossibility of Copper emulation (even on hardware level).
I own a PC myself, but I have also programmed on Amiga, and
I can sure tell it is a lot more complex machine than any PC,
especially on the graphics field.
>ALONE AND TOO EXPENSIVE TO DO HARDWARE ALONE, BUT COMBINING THE BEST OF BOTH
>COULD BE DONE EASILY AND WITH MORE COMPATABILITY AND LESS EXSPENSIVE. THIS IS
>WHAT I WOULD START WORKING ON IF I WAS THE NEW OWNER OF THE AMIGA AND ITS
>CHIPS.
..not to mention that you always need a piece of software
to control the hardware emulator. :)
BTW, no need to shout.
--
Timo Haanpaa + "I'll always remember the chill of November; the noose
Finland + of the fall; the sounds in the hall; the clock on the
thaa...@aton.abo.fi + wall ticking away." (Dream Theater: A Change of Seasons)
Mike Farren
> The question if emulation speed is another issue :-)
No, the question of emulation speed is a *crucial* issue. The reason you
can't do an Amiga emulation on *any* PC, even a very fast RISC PC, is
very simple: the Amiga contains several processors, all of which
operate concurrently, and which can control each other in real time, and
often do exactly that. If you can't run two concurrent processes (and
I mean concurrent, not multitasked), then you can't emulate an Amiga,
period. You could get close, but you couldn't emulate it.
It's a grave mistake to think of the Amiga as just a 68000 with a few
custom chips attached. That's true enough, but ignores the fact that
one of those chips, the Copper, is a CPU in its own right. Not a very
powerful one (its instruction set is only four or five instructions),
but a CPU anyhow - and the Copper can change the operation of the
system, including the 68000, itself. As the 68000 can change the
operation of the Copper itself. And both of those can be synched with
the display in a manner which is nearly impossible to do on a PC.
Without begin able to do all of those things, and to enforce the timing
between Copper and 68000, you simply cannot do some of the things the
Amiga is capable of.
All of this is in addition to the fact that there are many things the
Amiga can do, even leaving the Copper out of it, that no PC in existance
can do, period, simply because the PC hardware does not allow it.
You can't, for example, read an Amiga floppy on the PC, simply because
the PC floppy hardware will not allow it.
--
Michael J. Farren far...@netcom.com
"Are we getting paid for this?"
"You don't."
Mike Farren
>I bet you $100 bucks it could be done, I have seen it done for the PC. A PC
>Emulating the 1040 ST in REALTIME.
So what? A 1040 ST is hardly an Amiga - it doesn't even come close, and
has none of the coprocessors that the Amiga does. If you're talking about
a software-only Amiga emulation, then I will take your bet - I'll even give
you 10-to-1 odds. Conditions: software only emulation, PC or PC clone
platform (can include RISC, but must be ISA/EISA/VLB/PCI bus), must
perform *all* Amiga functions and maintain a speed at least 10% of
native Amiga 1200 operation for all functions. The emulator must be
available before January 1, 2000. Wanna bet now? Hell, I'm not even
demanding realtime!
> I have seen it done, Commodore UK if they buy out the Amiga stuff, could
>actually get tons of money, if they made a hybrid of software and hardware
>emulation.
They wouldn't get anything near the cost of development. Do you seriously
think there's a big market for an Amiga emulator? If so, you're a loony :-)
>DO YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THIS, OR SHOULD I PUT IT IN STONE.
No, but how about in lower case? It seems to me that *you*, my friend,
are the one who's having trouble understanding things, here...
>COULD BE DONE EASILY AND WITH MORE COMPATABILITY AND LESS EXSPENSIVE.
I see - you *are* a loony :-) How are you going to get "less exspensive"
(sic) than the going price for an Amiga 1200, much less an Amiga 500?
Remember that the street price for a 1200 is only in the $300-$400
range...
The costs of development alone, along with the costs of marketing, and
the extremely small market for such a thing, would make it *more*
expensive, not less - this is the case for every hardware/software
emulator that I've ever seen.
You also don't understand very much about how the Amiga works, if you
think that simply putting the custom chips on a card and slapping it
into the PC would work - it wouldn't, those chips are designed for the
68000, and rely on very specific and non- reproducible 68000 traits to
function.
>THIS IS
>WHAT I WOULD START WORKING ON IF I WAS THE NEW OWNER OF THE AMIGA AND ITS
>CHIPS.
Then we'll give a silent prayer of thanks that you *aren't* the new owner.
I'd hate to see Amiga go down the tubes *twice*.
Vladimir Elberg
: Then we'll give a silent prayer of thanks that you *aren't* the new owner.
: I'd hate to see Amiga go down the tubes *twice*.
: --
: Michael J. Farren far...@netcom.com
Oh, you mean like whats happening now with Commodore UK buying out the Amiga.
Once is a farce, but twice, means you better check your head.
Vladimir Elberg
: v...@motel6.wustl.edu (Vladimir Elberg) writes:
: >I bet you $100 bucks it could be done, I have seen it done for the PC. A PC
: >Emulating the 1040 ST in REALTIME.
: So what? A 1040 ST is hardly an Amiga - it doesn't even come close, and
: has none of the coprocessors that the Amiga does. If you're talking about
: a software-only Amiga emulation, then I will take your bet - I'll even give
: you 10-to-1 odds. Conditions: software only emulation, PC or PC clone
: platform (can include RISC, but must be ISA/EISA/VLB/PCI bus), must
: perform *all* Amiga functions and maintain a speed at least 10% of
: native Amiga 1200 operation for all functions. The emulator must be
: available before January 1, 2000. Wanna bet now? Hell, I'm not even
: demanding realtime!
I am not saying software-only emulation because that is very slow and not worth
it. I have only said this 5 times already. The PC is already faster than the
Amiga is when you get to 486-33/66. The Emulator has to be put out by a
commmodore owners, the new ones, right now it looks like the UK division of
Commodore. It could be done way before 2000, if Commodore UK wanted quick
cash..... REALTIME..... I am talking about HARDWARE/SOFTWARE combination
period!
: > I have seen it done, Commodore UK if they buy out the Amiga stuff, could
: >actually get tons of money, if they made a hybrid of software and hardware
: >emulation.
: They wouldn't get anything near the cost of development. Do you seriously
: think there's a big market for an Amiga emulator? If so, you're a loony :-)
Whats $150.00 (US dollars) times 2 Million users? I would call this enough
money from the Amiga community. Remember the Amiga community also uses PC
clones as well. Dont you have one? This is smart thinking guy. If I was
Commodore UK, this is what I would do. All you have to do is advertise
throught the Internet and Amiga Mags, big deal. Commodore UK could use this
money for new Amiga computer such as a Power PC Amiga. Think about it! I dont
even own Amiga, but If I was Commodore UK, I would get you guys off the ground,
"quick like that!"
: >DO YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THIS, OR SHOULD I PUT IT IN STONE.
: No, but how about in lower case? It seems to me that *you*, my friend,
: are the one who's having trouble understanding things, here...
: >COULD BE DONE EASILY AND WITH MORE COMPATABILITY AND LESS EXSPENSIVE.
: I see - you *are* a loony :-) How are you going to get "less exspensive"
: (sic) than the going price for an Amiga 1200, much less an Amiga 500?
: Remember that the street price for a 1200 is only in the $300-$400
: range...
: The costs of development alone, along with the costs of marketing, and
: the extremely small market for such a thing, would make it *more*
: expensive, not less - this is the case for every hardware/software
: emulator that I've ever seen.
: You also don't understand very much about how the Amiga works, if you
: think that simply putting the custom chips on a card and slapping it
: into the PC would work - it wouldn't, those chips are designed for the
: 68000, and rely on very specific and non- reproducible 68000 traits to
: function.
You dont understand what I am saying do you? The Gemulator emulates the 68000
on the ST and the software is fooled into thinking the processor is a 68000
processor, when in fact its an Intel or Compatable chip.
I do know that the Amiga could be done and done cost effectivly and could make
money, dont be such a negative person. I have seen it done already and it
works, and it can be done using Amiga chips as well. No one person is going to
do a hardware/software combo, instead it would be Commodore UK (which I think
is the new owner of the Amiga and the chipsets at this point).
There is another way that most anyone that knows about programming on the
Amiga could do, write a converter to convert Amiga 68000 files into PC files,
this could be done as well converting sound to soundblaster/gus/etc and video
to PC video and joysticks to analoge pc joysticks. This could be done without
the chips and such but not everything could be converted over and would be at
best unreliable, but this could be done by any Amiga/PC programmer that knows
both machines really well in ASM. The Hardware/Software Emulator would have to
be put out by the owners of the commodore Amiga and its chipsets.
: >THIS IS
Ronald Watkins
: If it was real time, it must have been a hardware emulator.
: With adequate hardware you can emulate a Silicon Graphics
: Indy on a HP calculator. It might cost a few bucks, though.
GEMulator for the PC runs *faster* than a 1040ST on a 486-33.
: I think the disk drive problem was just an example. There are
: lots of other restrictions, too, the biggest being the
: impossibility of Copper emulation (even on hardware level).
: I own a PC myself, but I have also programmed on Amiga, and
: I can sure tell it is a lot more complex machine than any PC,
: especially on the graphics field.
Some of the newer Windows accelerators might be usable as
substitute Copper chips. The 64-bit Diamond Stealth is far faster than
any Amiga I've ever seen; it runs 1024x768x64K as fast as my 486-33 with
an Orchid Fahrenheit runs 640x480x256. I don't have access to
programming information on the S3 964 chip, but it wouldn't surprise me
if it could be used as a Copper.
With the advent of PCI bus, Pentiums, and windows accelerators of
this caliber, the PC has become a significantly better graphic hardware
platform than the Amiga. (I owned an Amiga, loved it dearly, but I'll
call a spade a spade). The software isn't yet as good, but it's coming.
An Amiga emulator would be worthwhile for Amiga owners, simply because
the machine is dying quickly now, and it would be nice to have an upgrade
path. (sigh).
It sucks to be orphaned. :(
Ronald Watkins
NOT MINE.
Guru (gdrue...@csupomona.edu) wrote:
: > Emulator is very possible for the PC. You would put the AGA chip on a
: ---
: Gene Ruebsamen
Again, the above has nothing to do with me.
Mike Farren
>: They wouldn't get anything near the cost of development. Do you seriously
>: think there's a big market for an Amiga emulator? If so, you're a loony :-)
>Whats $150.00 (US dollars) times 2 Million users?
Are you seriously saying that an Amiga emulator for the PC would sell
2 million units? You *ARE* a loony. You'd be lucky, *damned* lucky,
if you sold 10,000 of them, let alone 2 million. And if you sold it
for $150, you'd be losing about $150 on each one, so I don't think
that's a viable business proposition.
Point #1 - you have no understanding of business or the marketplace.
>You dont understand what I am saying do you? The Gemulator emulates the 68000
>on the ST and the software is fooled into thinking the processor is a 68000
>processor, when in fact its an Intel or Compatable chip.
So? The difference is in the custom chips, not the 68000. A 68000 emulator
alone is a piece of cake, no problem for any decent programmer. Since the
Atari has no custom chips to cloud the issue, an Atari ST emulator is also
a piece of cake. The presence of the custom chips makes an Amiga emulator
*much* more tricky.
Point #2 - you have no understanding of what emulating an Amiga would
really entail.
>I have seen it done already and it works, and it can be done using Amiga
>chips as well.
No, it cannot.
Point #3 - you have no understanding of how the Amiga actually operates.
Nor do you have any understanding of the actual implementation of a
system bus structure, and what's needed to interface to that bus, or
so it would seem.
>This could be done without
>the chips and such but not everything could be converted over and would be at
>best unreliable, but this could be done by any Amiga/PC programmer that knows
>both machines really well in ASM. The Hardware/Software Emulator would have to
>be put out by the owners of the commodore Amiga and its chipsets.
Point #4 - you REALLY have no understanding of how the Amiga actually
operates!
The combination of points #1, #2, #3, and #4 is very simple - you, my friend,
don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. I do - I've
worked with the Amiga for 10 years now, and PCs for a while longer than
that. I've been a hardware design engineer, and a software engineer as
well - at one point, working for Commodore. For what it's worth, I
consider myself one of those Amiga/PC programmers who knows both machines
really well in ASM (or anything else, for that matter), and have done
quite a bit of work with both - and I still say it's impossible.
I will tell you one more time: you *cannot* do a software-only emulation
of the Amiga. There are features of the Amiga hardware, even those
concerned only with processing, which are impossible to duplicate or
emulate on the PC. Not "difficult" - impossible.
And I will tell you one more time: you *cannot* do a hardware/software
emulation of the Amiga using the Intel CPU as the main CPU and simply
putting the Amiga custom chips on an interface card for the PC. The
chips will not work that way - they demand a 68000 interface, and they
demand that that interface operate in real time. The only possible
option would be to design a completely new set of chips, designed from
scratch to work with the PC bus rather than the Amiga bus - but since
much of the Amiga's software depends very directly on the small details
of the chipset implementation, that would *not* be an Amiga, but something
else entirely. And it's all even more impossible when you consider
that the Amiga's custom chips have the capability to interact with the
processor directly and in realtime, which is not possible on a PC.
The *only* way that you can do an Amiga "emulation" on a PC would be to
put an entire Amiga system, CPU, custom chips, memory, and all, on the
card. And what is the real point in that? Especially since the expense
of such a card would easily be equivalent, if not greater, than the cost
of an entire Amiga system. If you choose not to believe that this is so,
feel free - but you WILL be wrong if you do.
It's hardly "being so negative" to recognize when something is simply not
possible - but it's being an unthinking dweeb to refuse to acknowledge
when something is.
Peter McGavin
>: does anyone know of an amiga emulator for the PC. I've checked some of the
>: typical ftp sites with no luck.
>
Probably not today, anyway...
>1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
>real time.
True enough (assuming you meant "couldn't"), but there are different
levels of emulation.
A software emulator could run a range of serious Amiga apps without
emulating all the custom chips. Well-behaved Amiga programs that work
with RTG could be emulated this way. Much of the Amiga's OS is
written in C, for future portability, and could be compiled for the
target CPU (assuming one had the source code).
Getting back to the custom chips, the hardest part of an Amiga to
emulate would be the copper, followed by the blitter. They are fast,
programmable, parallel processors. The copper is intimately tied to
the video scanning hardware, with sub-microsecond timing constraints.
There are so many quirks, especially in timing, that many demos don't
even work on all Amigas. A real-time software emulator that runs all
Euro-demos is certainly impossible with today's technology. But with
the warp-speed parallel processors of tomorrow, it should eventually
become possible.
Often I've seen floppy hardware cited as a reason for the inability of
a PC to emulate an Amiga. Most PCs can't read/write Amiga tracks.
But that's not important really. An Amiga can't read/write most Mac
diskettes either, yet AMAX and Emplant emulate a Mac just fine. (Well
okay, some Amiga-owners can read/write Mac diskettes, by pulsing the
drive motor to adjust its speed).
>2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
That's no problem at all. Lots of emulators swap bytes around.
>3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
Why? It seems perfectly reasonable that a pentium could emulate a
68000 in real time to me. You need a speed ratio of about 10 times
for real time emulation to work, and Pentium/68000 easily gives you
that.
--
Peter McGavin. (pet...@maths.grace.cri.nz)
Henry Wertz
>v...@motel6.wustl.edu (Vladimir Elberg) writes:
>
>>: They wouldn't get anything near the cost of development. Do you seriously
>>: think there's a big market for an Amiga emulator? If so, you're a loony
:-)
>
>>Whats $150.00 (US dollars) times 2 Million users?
>
>
>Are you seriously saying that an Amiga emulator for the PC would sell
>2 million units? You *ARE* a loony. You'd be lucky, *damned* lucky,
>if you sold 10,000 of them, let alone 2 million. And if you sold it
>for $150, you'd be losing about $150 on each one, so I don't think
>that's a viable business proposition.
>
>Point #1 - you have no understanding of business or the marketplace.
a board 8-)
>of the Amiga. There are features of the Amiga hardware, even those
>concerned only with processing, which are impossible to duplicate or
>emulate on the PC. Not "difficult" - impossible.
>
>And I will tell you one more time: you *cannot* do a hardware/software
>emulation of the Amiga using the Intel CPU as the main CPU and simply
>putting the Amiga custom chips on an interface card for the PC. The
>chips will not work that way - they demand a 68000 interface, and they
>demand that that interface operate in real time. The only possible
>option would be to design a completely new set of chips, designed from
>scratch to work with the PC bus rather than the Amiga bus - but since
>much of the Amiga's software depends very directly on the small details
>of the chipset implementation, that would *not* be an Amiga, but something
>else entirely. And it's all even more impossible when you consider
>that the Amiga's custom chips have the capability to interact with the
>processor directly and in realtime, which is not possible on a PC.
do it, but it's been done. Why design them from scratch? Do what us IBMers
have done for years... if something isn't quite compatible, add in some little
converter. There isn't anything magical about the ISA bus.. there's 8mhz
signal clock, power, ground, and a bunch of IRQ and data lines... There ought
to be some way to get just about any chip functioning on that, although they
may need a little "help" 8-). If the Copper asks to stop the CPU, it can be
relayed to the emulator which can do exactly that. It should be easy enough
to put a couple on-off switches on a chip that the emulator can control. You
see? Then the request to turn off the CPU (in the form of some electrical
signal) would change one of these -- and the emulator would act accordingly.
It should be easy to do I think.
>The *only* way that you can do an Amiga "emulation" on a PC would be to
>put an entire Amiga system, CPU, custom chips, memory, and all, on the
>card. And what is the real point in that? Especially since the expense
>of such a card would easily be equivalent, if not greater, than the cost
>of an entire Amiga system. If you choose not to believe that this is so,
>feel free - but you WILL be wrong if you do.
Henry Wertz
came up with another insane idea now 8-). How about you put some el cheap-o
chips, like 286's or so, on a board.. These processors aren't *that* powerful,
are they? A 286 ought to be able to emulate a chip with (like someone said
way back in the mists of time..) 4 instructions... real time even! With DMA,
it ought to be able to pass data fast enough, especially with a PCI or Local
Bus.
>>2) the Amiga uses a 680x0 chip family (big endian instead of little endian)
>
>That's no problem at all. Lots of emulators swap bytes around.
> Yep... big endian does not mean it's in greek or something.. some byte
swap command only takes a clock or two..
>>3) even a pentium cannot emulate a 68000 in real time.
Yeah right...
Richard Maddocks
> Some of the newer Windows accelerators might be usable as
> substitute Copper chips. The 64-bit Diamond Stealth is far faster than
> any Amiga I've ever seen; it runs 1024x768x64K as fast as my 486-33 with
> an Orchid Fahrenheit runs 640x480x256. I don't have access to
> programming information on the S3 964 chip, but it wouldn't surprise me
> if it could be used as a Copper.
>
> With the advent of PCI bus, Pentiums, and windows accelerators of
> this caliber, the PC has become a significantly better graphic hardware
> platform than the Amiga. (I owned an Amiga, loved it dearly, but I'll
> call a spade a spade). The software isn't yet as good, but it's coming.
> An Amiga emulator would be worthwhile for Amiga owners, simply because
> the machine is dying quickly now, and it would be nice to have an upgrade
> path. (sigh).
It's not just a question of raw processing power its a question of design. The
Amiga is a set of chips designed to run in parallel each doing its own task
without significantly impacting (in most cases) on the rest of the system,
whereas the PC is a miss match of 3rd party products each one totally unaware
of what the rest of the system is doing and unable to change it relying totally
on its Intel heart. For Eg an Amiga game called widgets might be doing some of
the following
NOTE: this is not necessarily how it would be done but how it could be done.
The 68000 is waiting for something to do.
The Blitter is building up the next screen for display. When it finishes each
task it will generate an interrupt to tell the 68000 that it has finished. The
68000 can then give it a new task and away the blitter goes.
The Sound system is playing 4 channels of digital sound when each channel has
finished it will notify the 68000 by generating an interrupt, so the 68000 can
set it up for its next waveform.
The Copper is executing the program written for it by the 68000. First it is
going to load the address of the screen (anywhere in the 1st 2 megs on AGA chip
set machines) then it will set scroll values up and the load the colour regs.
Next it will set up the sprite regs. It is then told to wait for raster line
100 (and possibly an horizontal offset with up to 16 pixel accuracy) where it
will reload the colour regs and re-use sprite 1 which has become available
again. At line 200 it is going to split the screen and change the resolution
(it could do this on every scan line) followed by generating an interrupt to
tell the 68000 it has finished. Of course it could request help from the 68000
any time by generating an interrupt.
In the meantime the disk subsystem has been told to load the next chunk of data
that will be needed.
As you can see the Amiga can perform many tasks which even top of the line PCs
would have trouble with like multiple split screens.
No, the only way I can see to emulate an Amiga would be to slap the whole thing
on a card, which in fact (according to PC Format) is what is going to happen.
I'm not putting the PC down, I rarely use my Amiga whereas I use my PC
everyday, Its just that the Amiga is designed to be a games computer with fancy
graphics/sound hardware whereas the PC is a serious computer with lots of umph.
--
Richard Maddocks
Nic Gamble
I read in the August edition of PC Format that Commodore are making an plug-in
card for the PC that will let it run Amiga s/w. Now please note thta this is
from a magazine so don't flame me for it :)
The board is supposed to go on sale early next year. The specs for the board
are guessed at being aound the AAA chip-set. Also it will allow PC and Amiga
s/w to be running at the same time will little or no performance loss on
either platform.
Personally I think it sound a little like an Amiga motherboard which is
altered to give output to the PC bus. Still sounds good if it is real.
--
Nic Gamble | PGP 2.6 Key Available |
n...@cyclone.demon.co.uk | AKA on Btech: Ren O'Blade |
... Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
Eric J. Korpela
Richard Maddocks <ma...@civy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3237tp$1...@crl3.crl.com> rwat...@crl.com "Ronald Watkins" writes:
>
>The 68000 is waiting for something to do.
>The Blitter is building up the next screen for display.
No PC graphics cards has bitblt functions? That's news to me.
>The Sound system is playing 4 channels of digital sound when each channel has
>finished it will notify the 68000 by generating an interrupt, so the 68000 can
>set it up for its next waveform.
And my SoundBlaster 16 has to use the PCs CPU to toggle the speaker in
and out? Get real.
>In the meantime the disk subsystem has been told to load the next chunk of data
>that will be needed.
How I long for the day when PCs will have DMA. Its so unfortunate that
no one ever built a PC with a DMA controller. (Yeah, right!)
>The Copper is executing the program written for it by the 68000.
OK, so there is no PC hardware for this. But are you telling me that
a 100 Mhz pentium will not be enough horsepower to emulate a 7.6 Mhz
Copper/68000 pair? How about a 200 Mhz PPC or P6? Someday the Amiga
will be emulated.
--
Eric Korpela | New ERIC 2.0 offers increased
kor...@ssl.berkeley.edu | functionality with respect to
| workflow!
<a href="http://cs.indiana.edu/finger/mofo.ssl.berkeley.edu/korpela/w">Click here for more info.</a>
Alan L.M. Buxey
: I bet you $100 bucks it could be done, I have seen it done for the PC. A PC
: Emulating the 1040 ST in REALTIME.
didnt you read the part above <thats now been deleted>
Both the Mac and the ST use the CPU for virtually everything.
Not the Amiga.
I will state the following - for use to quote in the future..
" The Amiga was the only machine of the 20th
century that could not be emulated until a machine with the same
architecture design came out in the 21st century. "
Of course, each concurrent Amiga can emulate the A500 almsot perfectly ;)
alan
From Alan, replies appreciated!___ __ _ __ ___ _ WWW - soon
.----------------------. ///\\ |\\ /| || // ` /\\ __ __ 32
| Alan Buxey | __ /// \\ | \\ /|| ||(( __ / \\ // ||\\
|kc...@uk.ac.susx.solx1| \\\///--- \\| \/ || || \\_||/--- \\ \\_ ||//
`-I use PGP...do you??-' \XX/Amiga - The Reason That I Don't Own A PC.
Alan L.M. Buxey
: I have seen it done, Commodore UK if they buy out the Amiga stuff, could
: actually get tons of money, if they made a hybrid of software and hardware
: emulation. Put the AGA,COPPER chips and such in hardware (NO EMULATION
: NEEDED), EMULATE THE CPU AND SOUND IN SOFTWARE. ALLOW PC JOYSTICKS EMULATE
: AMIGA JOYSTICKS, PC USE FOR AMIGA MOUSE, MODEM AND PRINTER SUPPORT ARE POSSIBLE
: AS WELL. AMIGA FLOPPY DRIVES ARE VIRTUAL DISKS AND BINGO, YOU HAVE A AMIGA
: EMULATOR THAT YOU COULD BUY FROM THE OWNER OF THE AMIGA AND THE CHIPS AND THEY
: COULD GET ENOUGH MONEY FROM THE SALES OF THE EMULATOR TO MAKE ADVANCENMENTS
: TOWARDS A POWER PC AMIGA. DO YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND THIS, OR SHOULD I PUT IT IN
: STONE.
: IT CAN BE DONE IN SOFTWARE/HARDWARE, BUT IT IS IMPOSSBLE TO DO IN JUST SOFTWARE
: ALONE AND TOO EXPENSIVE TO DO HARDWARE ALONE, BUT COMBINING THE BEST OF BOTH
: COULD BE DONE EASILY AND WITH MORE COMPATABILITY AND LESS EXSPENSIVE. THIS IS
: WHAT I WOULD START WORKING ON IF I WAS THE NEW OWNER OF THE AMIGA AND ITS
: CHIPS.
ouch! my ears!all htis shouting! :)
Listen, the parallel and serial ports, yes. As the Amiga uses very basic
CIA chips to communicate to them.
As for the mouse - well, this is possible -> with a software patch.
And the joystick.
As for the diskdrive -> the virtual drive would be an _idea_ but how
would you put the amiga games and files onto a PC in the first place??
you would _need_ an Amiga to write everything onto a PC disk! hmmm.
Now for other things. The gfx and sound. The custom chips do not do one
job each. infact, paula - the sound chip - controls aspects of the
diskdrive and file loading.
By the time you have your hardware (all the custom chips) and software
combination, it wouldnt be cheap. the research would be phenominal .
And also, emulation on a pentium would be slower than a 68000 if it
could be done. Awful considering the base Amiga runs on an 68020!!
Of course, due to custom chips being able to control the CPU and vice
versa, the whole setup is unfeasable.
alan
Alan L.M. Buxey
: Whats $150.00 (US dollars) times 2 Million users? I would call this enough
: money from the Amiga community. Remember the Amiga community also uses PC
: clones as well. Dont you have one? This is smart thinking guy. If I was
: Commodore UK, this is what I would do. All you have to do is advertise
: throught the Internet and Amiga Mags, big deal. Commodore UK could use this
: money for new Amiga computer such as a Power PC Amiga. Think about it! I dont
: even own Amiga, but If I was Commodore UK, I would get you guys off the ground,
: "quick like that!"
Amiga community? Look, most of us Amiga owners _hate_ PC's.
they have awful architecture and cost way too much! - and thats not even
mentioning the crap OS's around!
Would an A1200 or A4000 owner really splash out for a $200 emulator that
has the performance of less than an A500 ?? NO!!!!
C=UK will invest in the PowerPC Amiga etc etc -> but on revenue from
real Amigas with decent horsepower (ie non-emulated).
If the average PC owner saw the crappy emulatored Amiga, then their Idea
of Amiga would go right down the pan..
show them an AGA demo on a real Amiga however, and suprise/intrgue etc
will come
alan
Henry Wertz
>The Sound system is playing 4 channels of digital sound when each channel has
>finished it will notify the 68000 by generating an interrupt, so the 68000
can
>set it up for its next waveform.
locked up, dead, kaput, no screen, no keyboard lights responding, etc., and
the Sound Blaster kept playing music until I hit the power switch about 5
minutes later 8-).
>The Copper is executing the program written for it by the 68000. First it is
>going to load the address of the screen (anywhere in the 1st 2 megs on AGA
chip
>set machines) then it will set scroll values up and the load the colour regs.
>Next it will set up the sprite regs. It is then told to wait for raster line
>100 (and possibly an horizontal offset with up to 16 pixel accuracy) where it
>will reload the colour regs and re-use sprite 1 which has become available
>again. At line 200 it is going to split the screen and change the resolution
>(it could do this on every scan line) followed by generating an interrupt to
>tell the 68000 it has finished. Of course it could request help from the
68000
>any time by generating an interrupt.
Well... I know most cards *have* a processor, but I'll give you that...
they aren't used usually on the IBM.
>In the meantime the disk subsystem has been told to load the next chunk of
data
>that will be needed.
Yep.. doesn't do it.
>As you can see the Amiga can perform many tasks which even top of the line
PCs
>would have trouble with like multiple split screens.
I agree here 8-).. jeez, my Atari 8 bit could do 256 color graphics with
split screens, back in 1980! I don't see why they don't put some nice chips
like on the Atari into a graphics adapter for the IBM... With Windoze being so
non-specific for graphics hardware, you could make something nice and
ANTIC-like for the PC and put it on a chip 8-).
Peter McGavin
>In note <PETERM.94...@whio.grace.cri.nz>, writes:
>>Getting back to the custom chips, the hardest part of an Amiga to
>>emulate would be the copper, followed by the blitter. They are fast,
>>programmable, parallel processors. The copper is intimately tied to
>>the video scanning hardware, with sub-microsecond timing constraints.
>>There are so many quirks, especially in timing, that many demos don't
>>even work on all Amigas. A real-time software emulator that runs all
>>Euro-demos is certainly impossible with today's technology. But with
>>the warp-speed parallel processors of tomorrow, it should eventually
>>become possible.
> You probably saw my post about the converter and using real chips.. I
>came up with another insane idea now 8-). How about you put some el cheap-o
>chips, like 286's or so, on a board.. These processors aren't *that* powerful,
>are they? A 286 ought to be able to emulate a chip with (like someone said
>way back in the mists of time..) 4 instructions... real time even! With DMA,
>it ought to be able to pass data fast enough, especially with a PCI or Local
>Bus.
Parallel processing is the right idea for best performance. But a 286
with DMA on any existing PC is almost certainly not sufficient for a
perfect real-time Amiga emulation at the hardware level with existing
PCs, IMHO.
Take a look at the (rather complicated) chip-bus timing chart in the
Amiga Hardware Reference Manual. A perfect Amiga emulator would have
to decide which Amiga subsystem (video-DMA, copper, blitter, audio,
CPU,...) gets every chip bus cycle, using exactly the same prioritised
scheme as a real Amiga. If anything is wrong, at least one Euro-demo
will fail, I reckon. What happens on a real Amiga depends on the
current display mode and whether any Amiga subsystem including the CPU
is waiting for a chip cycle. The latter depends on
CPU-(type,speed,cache), and fastmem-speed. This means that any
parallel processors in the emulator would have to synchronise with the
rest of the system at every emulation clock cycle.
Also, consider what the Amiga's copper is capable of. It can wait for
the video beam to reach any part of the display (8-lores pixel
resolution), then write a constant to any one of the Amiga's multitude
of hardware registers. So, at any point on the display, the copper
can, for examples:
o change the colour of a colour register
o change the current screen resolution
o cause the video DMA to start displaying from somewhere else
o trigger a software interrupt
o start the blitter
o start the audio
o start a new copper program (self-programming)
o re-use a sprite
o etc...
If the copper triggers a software interrupt, it synchronises the CPU
to with the video beam. Not only that, but the CPU can, at any time,
restart the copper program from somewhere else.
So any parallel processors would not only have to be intimately tied
together, but tied to the video beam as well. Precise timing
throughout is absolutely crucial.
Having said that, an existing computer with sufficient video
resolution could emulate the video beam (a sort of virtual video
beam). But it would almost certainly be too slow for real-time on
existing PCs. The day will come, however, when PCs are fast enough.
Such an emulator would be a pig/challenge to write (delete one).
--
Peter McGavin. (pet...@maths.grace.cri.nz)
Peter McGavin
>Also, consider what the Amiga's copper is capable of. It can wait for
>the video beam to reach any part of the display (8-lores pixel resolution)
Typo... This should be 4-lores pixel resolution.
--
Peter McGavin. (pet...@maths.grace.cri.nz)
Ross
>mval...@draco.lnec.pt () writes:
>
>> The question if emulation speed is another issue :-)
>
>No, the question of emulation speed is a *crucial* issue. The reason you
>can't do an Amiga emulation on *any* PC, even a very fast RISC PC, is
>very simple: the Amiga contains several processors, all of which
>operate concurrently, and which can control each other in real time, and
>often do exactly that. If you can't run two concurrent processes (and
>I mean concurrent, not multitasked), then you can't emulate an Amiga,
>period. You could get close, but you couldn't emulate it.
It's pretty easy to prove that any concurrent process can be executed
with the *exact* same output using a single process, given
unconstrained speed, storage, etc. Now this is for *any* process,
ie. proof for the worst case. It's even easier in general. Anyone who
wishes to claim that emulating an Amiga on the grounds that it is
impossible to simulate the multiple processes is talking out of where
the sun doesn't shine. The only limitations are processor speed and
physical constraints like a video memory that cannot be matched to an
Amiga video mode, or a disk drive that cannot read Amiga disks.
Twenty years ago, nobody would have believed it if you said that you
would be able to emulate an IBM S/360 on a computer the size of a
notebook, but it can (and has) been done. Now taht feat is, I would
say, of a pretty similar order of magnitude. Just have some patience,
and wait for the technology to catch up with the demands, and n the
meantime, for goodness sake, stop boring us to tears by arguing
amongst yourselves if it is even possible. Nobody really cares, and to
the observer it just seems like the juvenile, ten year old,m "my
computer is better than yours" wars.
Ross
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ross Hamilton ======= Department of Computer Science, University of Warwick
Office: CS102 == Phone: 0203 523523 x2350 === Email: ro...@dcs.warwick.ac.uk
Snail: Arthur Vick Hall 1, Rm 004, University of Warwick, Coventry, CV4 7AL
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik Lundevall
>Amiga community? Look, most of us Amiga owners _hate_ PC's.
>they have awful architecture and cost way too much! - and thats not even
>mentioning the crap OS's around!
"Hate" is a strong word. ANd whether they cost too much and have crappy OSes
depends on what you use them for. There are certainly other OSes than
the Windows/DOS combo (such as OS/2, Linux, NeXTStep etc).
I have used Amigas since 1986, but I am typing this on a PC running OS/2.
For some things an Amiga is the best chioce, for others there might be
some PC based system, or a Mac or something else.
But back to the original question, whether people would buy an Amiga
emulator. If there is a severe lack of desk space maybe, otherwise
at least I prefer to have the real thing.
>Would an A1200 or A4000 owner really splash out for a $200 emulator that
>has the performance of less than an A500 ?? NO!!!!
Of course not, but the question was rather if a PC owner would do it.
>C=UK will invest in the PowerPC Amiga etc etc -> but on revenue from
>real Amigas with decent horsepower (ie non-emulated).
Will they? That remains to be seen. They haven't even bought the Commodore
stuff yet AFAIK, just placed a bid.
MECHA INC.
>Erik Lundevall (lu...@adverts.nada.kth.se) wrote:
>: In <31nogr$3r...@cygnus.lnec.pt> mval...@draco.lnec.pt () writes:
>: >Alan L.M. Buxey (kc...@central.susx.ac.uk) wrote:
>: >: 1) The Amiga using custom chips that even a pentium could emulate in
>: >: real time.
>: > The C64 also uses custom chips but there are several PC emulators for it.
>: A C64 != an Amiga, they do not use the same custom chips. The ability to
>: emulate a C64 on a PC have nothing to do with the ability to emulate an
>: Amiga. Commodore made both of them, but that is just about the only thing
>: in common.
>1) It TAKES at least a 486DX266 to emulate a C64 at full speed with
>decent compatibility (even it doesn't work all the time). That's a 1MHz
>machine with VERY simple chips.
woah! DX2 66??? I still have my commie right next to my old 386dx40
and I find them to be nearly identical in "benckmarks"
sorry to be off the thread, but this one kinda threw me.
Miha's old c64s runs IMHO *alot* faster than the new version.
>2) If you want to be very technical, Commodore didn't design the Amiga
>custom chips, or even the Amiga. They sold it. Amiga, Inc. made the chips.
>3) The Amiga chips are THOUSANDS of times more complex than the C64 chips.
hehehehe.. now to piss everyone off and start another flame war [ like
they ever end]
THE BIGGEST reason, I think ppl didn't buy into Amiga is because
when the market was hot for it, they didn't have a C64 emulator!!!
I would have bought one right out if it did...
there is something to be said for compatibility. People knock the
80x86 arch, but I think staying with the user base was the greatest decision
ever made.
example of not staying: Commodore R.I.P, Mirco Channel Arch. R.I.P
Atari ANYTHING... R.I.P. Nintendo almost [ probasbly should have been ] R.I.P.
examples of staying: ISA Arch [ + VESA and PCI ], SEGA, etc...
ok ok ... I've babbled on enough time to go.... one final word in defence of
commodore:
more C64's have been sold in the world, than all models of Macs put
together, plus all the orgional IBM PC's XT's and AT's
-- Charles Hunter
Vladimir Elberg
You havent used many emulators before have you? You could transfer the Amiga
disks via a cable from the Amiga to the PC or you could use a modem and
download the stuff and put it on a virtual disk on the PC. The sound chip
"paula" would not be that hard, I am not into the tech part, because I dont own
an amiga, but to say its slow is wrong, it would be fast and cheap. I have
already seen it done, a pentium now costs $1600 for a full setup. I dont think
you would need a pentium to emulate the Amiga, remember you are using chips to
do the actual stuff as well. Not only am I right, but there is an emulator
thats comming out next year according to PC format.
You guys knew it was going to happen. I hate to say this, I was going to say
it in Setember if the Amiga has not been bought out by then, but Amiga is
history as far as a viable close to mainstream computer system goes. I
remember way back in 1991 when the PC demo groups had just a few groups and
most of the groups were on Amiga, but now most if not nearly all are for the
PC. Its a shift in power. The PC has the momentum now to take anything in its
path, including power pc. Its over for the Power PC as well, this is going to
be one of those chips that could have been but never were type chips. The
Power pc's ONLY purpose is to push todays PC to be faster and lower priced,
this is it. Enough of my rambling....
Vladimir Elberg
This is not true, but in your mind it is, its called BIAS my friend. Its like
Ford vs Chevy trucks, everyone has to take sides. If the Amiga was the worst
computer on the planet with no software support, and the hardware was crap,
crashing all the time, you would still say the above. Its not the acual truth,
but rose colored glasses and a big biased opinion get in the way.
It doesnt really matter now does it? I mean you are going down with a
sinking ship and you love it, two words for you guy, bias......
BTW, I like the Amiga, but its people like you that make it look bad, by
badmouthing everything else out there and having penis envy. I like the Amiga
and I like the PC and I do not hold a bias. I can do that because I am not
in a religion of computers nor do I were rose colored glasses.
Vladimir Elberg
simple minded or does not want to believe it.
Software Emulation cannot be done period, end of story.
Hardware/Software Emulation could be done, with alittle slowdown, but is
the cheapest way to go.
Full hardware Emulation/simulation is the best choice, most expensive, but most
compatablity and speed.
It can be done and will be done.
Most of the people say it cant be done, because they dont want it to be done.
Sorry, it can and will be done. PC Format says so! Check it out!
I may not know Amiga computers inside and out, but I do know computers and
what is realistic and what is not. It will not require a Pentium computer to
use Amiga software, sorry, not needed!
Its going to be an interesting 1995 as more Amiga companies consider to bail
out of the market. By 1996, most Amigans will have moved on to other
platforms. Windows 4.0 and Quake will make it harder for Amiga users to stay
on theri platforms and with PC prices dropping you will see a mass exodus to
the PC platform, this will already start this Christmas and will snowball in
Christmas of 96, most users will be on the PC or MAC. The Majority on the PC
by 1996, some will have went Power PC, but power PC is not going anywhere and
Apple is pumping more money to keep it afloat. By 1997 Power PC will be in its
last year and having problems from new advancements from Intel-HP as they
continue to dominate the chip market, by 1998, the world is turning to mostly
RISC made programs, fueled by the Intel-HP relationship and it becomes
standard. RISC goes mainstream in 1997. Amiga will only be a forgotten
computer. By 1999 none of this will matter, the US will be history, wiped out
by .............................
Mike Farren
>far...@netcom.com (Mike Farren) writes:
>>If you can't run two concurrent processes (and
>>I mean concurrent, not multitasked), then you can't emulate an Amiga,
>>period. You could get close, but you couldn't emulate it.
>It's pretty easy to prove that any concurrent process can be executed
>with the *exact* same output using a single process, given
>unconstrained speed, storage, etc.
Yes, but that's an awfully big constraint in the real world. "Unconstrained"
is not a word you can use when you're talking about real world systems,
*especially* PC-type systems, which have more contraints than anyone
really would wish.
>Nobody really cares, and to the observer it just seems like the juvenile,
>ten year old, "my computer is better than yours" wars.
Perhaps the observer should take a closer look, then. Nowhere in any of
my posts have I claimed any sort of superiority for the Amiga over the PC
in general terms (although I think there are any number of superior design
features in the Amiga over the equivalent in the PC, but that's a different
issue). Nor am I slamming PCs - I use them, I program them, I enjoy playing
games on them, no biggie. The only agenda I have here is to try and
stop the egregious spread of false ideas, based on a lack of knowledge of
how the Amiga really works.
Mike Farren
>Richard Maddocks <ma...@civy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>The Blitter is building up the next screen for display.
>No PC graphics cards has bitblt functions? That's news to me.
Not with the generality and functionality of the Amiga blitter, no.
Some have a bit more functionality, in some areas, but none approach
the overall functionality of the Amiga's (admittedly slow) blitter.
More to the point, *none* of them have the capability of operating on
memory outside of the video subsystem, which the Amiga's blitter
certainly has, and does, all the time.
>>The Sound system is playing 4 channels of digital sound when each channel has
>>finished it will notify the 68000 by generating an interrupt, so the 68000 can
>And my SoundBlaster 16 has to use the PCs CPU to toggle the speaker in
>and out? Get real.
Can your SoundBlaster automatically reload itself from system memory
without processor intervention? Can you automatically play a 2-meg
sample and only have to reload one register every 65K bytes of that
sample, triggered by an interrupt? (Actually, I don't know the answer
to this, although I suspect it's "no". But it might be "yes" - any
Soundblaster gurus around?) And can your SoundBlaster play a sample
generated by the CPU as it's being generated? While modulating it
with another sample generated by the Blitter - without processor
intervention?
>How I long for the day when PCs will have DMA. Its so unfortunate that
>no one ever built a PC with a DMA controller. (Yeah, right!)
It's unfortunate indeed that no one has ever built a PC with a *decent*
DMA controller, a truly general-purpose DMA controller, yes. It's
even more unfortunate that nobody has built a mainstream OS which
uses the funky DMA controller that the PC *does* have in any intelligent
manner - but that's another rant :-)
>>The Copper is executing the program written for it by the 68000.
>OK, so there is no PC hardware for this. But are you telling me that
>a 100 Mhz pentium will not be enough horsepower to emulate a 7.6 Mhz
>Copper/68000 pair? How about a 200 Mhz PPC or P6? Someday the Amiga
>will be emulated.
No, and no. What you don't seem to understand is the manner in which
the Copper, Blitter, and CPU can all work together, each affecting
the other on a microsecond-by-microsecond basis. This isn't a matter
of some "processors" that just sit out there and wait for the CPU to
tell them what to do - these are processors which can, and do, control
each other's operation in the most basic of ways - the blitter, for
example, can easily modify memory the CPU is using for executable code
*while* the CPU is executing that code, and do so under the direction
of the Copper, which is running code generated by the CPU at the same
time *that* is being executed. That same Copper can modify the operation
of any of the hardware subsystems, again in real time, at about a 1us
resolution level. And, in turn, that modification can go back and
affect the operations of the Blitter and CPU. The three chips are
very tightly interlinked, and there's simply no way to have a system
which is not as tightly interlinked and still be able to claim that
it's a real emulation of the Amiga.
Mike Farren
>THE BIGGEST reason, I think ppl didn't buy into Amiga is because
>when the market was hot for it, they didn't have a C64 emulator!!!
>I would have bought one right out if it did...
The first C64 emulator for the Amiga came out around 1986. Did you buy
one? :-)
Mike Farren
> Most of the people say it cant be done, because they dont want it to be done.
>Sorry, it can and will be done. PC Format says so! Check it out!
Wow. I never realized that PC Format was such an authority on the Amiga.
Or much of anything else, for that matter...
> I may not know Amiga computers inside and out, but I do know computers and
>what is realistic and what is not. It will not require a Pentium computer to
>use Amiga software, sorry, not needed!
You certainly don't know Amigas "inside and out". In fact, you know them
not at all. If you care to continue believing your fairy tale, then
good luck. As for me, I prefer to live in the real world, where real
knowledge can lead to real conclusions, not the ones one wants to believe.
Nic Percival
Full emulation of an Amiga is completely possible, but from what I've
gathered from Mike Farrens posts will take a lot of grunt - *if* you
want to keep synchronization of CPU/blitter/etc correct.
Some of you may well be aware that a colleague of mine, James Fidell
(jfid, same address) is working on a BBC Micro emulator. One of the problems
with fully emulating a BBC is many programs have a habit of changing the
screen mode halfway through a screen refresh so you can have monochrome
graphics at the top of the screen and say, colour text at the bottom.
This is achieved on a real Beeb by setting up a timer within a 6522VIA
chip which duly interrupts the processor at the appropriate moment which
then changes the screen mode.
Figuring out when the hell the appropriate moment is on an emulator
is a bit of a bastard, and as for correctly altering what your display stuff
does following this - uurgh!
The problems when emulating something much more complex than a simple timer
are nasty to say the least, but they can, without doubt, be handled.
At a decent speed on a PC? Not a chance.
The question is then, do complex timing critical interactions between the
CPU/blitter/sound chip occur very commonly, or can you fudge the emulator
so that it will work for most things at a decent speed? I suspect that this
is the case, and you will be able to run a good fraction - but not all -
of Amiga software on an emulated Amiga on a PC.
My tuppeny worth,
--
+-- Nic Percival ----------+------------------------------------------------+
| Micro Focus, Newbury. | Frankfort, Kentucky, makes it against the law |
| (0635) 32646 Ext 5336. | to shoot off a policeman's tie. |
+-- n...@mfltd.co.uk -------+------------------------------------------------+
Ross
>[...] The only agenda I have here is to try and
>stop the egregious spread of false ideas, based on a lack of knowledge of
>how the Amiga really works.
As they say, "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."
Fortunately some people have more faith in the future and a broader
background knowledge and don't let their emotions cloud their
judgement.
Please, if you want to continue discussing this, turn to email. I'm
sure most people are fed up with this topic.
Alan L.M. Buxey
: This is not true, but in your mind it is, its called BIAS my friend. Its like
: Ford vs Chevy trucks, everyone has to take sides. If the Amiga was the worst
: computer on the planet with no software support, and the hardware was crap,
: crashing all the time, you would still say the above. Its not the acual truth,
: but rose colored glasses and a big biased opinion get in the way.
I suppose that i am biased in _some_ way. But i do not wear
rose-coloured glasses when i look out on life.
I can see the PC's with their very fast speeds for comparatively low
speeds. I can see powerPC's and powerMacs dominating the skyline.
Its just when you start suggesting an Amiga emulator, i have to think
"has this guy thought about what he's saying". So i confront you with
facts and the next thing I know is that you are ranting away in more
than 10 lines of capital letters about how GREAT the emulator would be -
but it wouldnt be my friend, it wouldnt be. I could come up with great
ideas too - that i think everyone would LOVE to own, but i think things
through -> before letting my 1K idea become over 400K of internet
bandwidth and storage capacity removal.
: It doesnt really matter now does it? I mean you are going down with a
: sinking ship and you love it, two words for you guy, bias......
What sinking ship? If this was a snide comment about the Amigas future,
then you have more than a few newsgroups and press releases to read my
dear friend.
: BTW, I like the Amiga, but its people like you that make it look bad, by
: badmouthing everything else out there and having penis envy. I like the Amiga
Oh, theres no penis(?) envy here. I didnt bad-mouth anything. I simply
pointed out the problems. Sure, if i was given enough money, i wouldnt
buy a PC (even a 486dx4!!) simply because none of the OS's suit me at
all -> and before you start ranting away about Linux, you can forget it.
I've just installed the bloody thing on a Lab PC -> not all of the
operating system, just 120MB's worth...and it took many hours to do (and
still isnt complete) and all it is is a Un*x clone...
: and I like the PC and I do not hold a bias. I can do that because I am not
: in a religion of computers nor do I were rose colored glasses.
I dont class computers as a religion -> some do, but i dont. My .siggy
file may look fanatical, but if you look carefully, you will understand
it (not included with this post). I class computers like I class other
luxuries in life. If you cant use it naturally and comfortably then it
isnt YOU (so to speak) and you should try something else....
and as for the rose-coloured glasses, they aint in fashion this year. :)
alan
Alan L.M. Buxey
: Full hardware Emulation/simulation is the best choice, most expensive, but most
: compatablity and speed.
: It can be done and will be done.
: Most of the people say it cant be done, because they dont want it to be done.
: Sorry, it can and will be done. PC Format says so! Check it out!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So does Amiga Format.
Its called rumour, speculation or hype.
[rantings about the PC becoming the only platform deleted]
alan
Henry Wertz
DMA buffer, and tell the Sound Blaster to use that buffer. Not quite as
simple as changing one register, but pretty close 8-).
>>How I long for the day when PCs will have DMA. Its so unfortunate that
>>no one ever built a PC with a DMA controller. (Yeah, right!)
>
>It's unfortunate indeed that no one has ever built a PC with a *decent*
>DMA controller, a truly general-purpose DMA controller, yes. It's
>even more unfortunate that nobody has built a mainstream OS which
>uses the funky DMA controller that the PC *does* have in any intelligent
>manner - but that's another rant :-)
*more which I deleted*
Mike Farren
>The question is then, do complex timing critical interactions between the
>CPU/blitter/sound chip occur very commonly, or can you fudge the emulator
>so that it will work for most things at a decent speed? I suspect that this
>is the case, and you will be able to run a good fraction - but not all -
>of Amiga software on an emulated Amiga on a PC.
No, those interactions probably aren't very common. It's never been my
contention that you couldn't do an emulator for the Amiga OS, or at
least 99% of the Amiga OS. You just can't do that last 1% in any
reasonable fashion, and there are things which aren't covered by the OS
which you can't do at all. Certainly you could do an emulator that ran
a lot of Amiga software - particularly that which was "OS-friendly" and
programmed according to Commodore's guidelines. You'd only, then, have
problems with programs which relied on the Amiga-specific hardware
features like the split screen resolutions, shared palettes, that sort
of thing.
But who would want to? The only conceivable reason I can see for
anyone actually wanting an Amiga emulator would be to run Amiga games.
Certainly there are alternatives available for all of the "ordinary"
Amiga applications, and in most cases, the alternatives are, in fact,
somewhat superior to the Amiga's. The special cases where that isn't
true are special indeed, and I'd tend to think that most people who
wanted those particular apps already have Amigas. Likewise, those who
think that, all things considered, the Amiga is still the superior
platform (which, for the things I do, I do consider it to be) are going
to have Amigas, and have no interest in an emulator.
Bjoern Lindgren
<STuff deleted>
>IT CAN BE DONE IN SOFTWARE/HARDWARE, BUT IT IS IMPOSSBLE TO DO IN JUST SOFTWARE
>ALONE AND TOO EXPENSIVE TO DO HARDWARE ALONE, BUT COMBINING THE BEST OF BOTH
If you do it all in Hardware you'll get ..... an Amiga :-)
--
* Björn Lindgren | - Hey Amiga, the Sun is rising ! *
* ^o with dots above | She thoughtfully took a byte in her Apple. *
* Be...@Solace.mh.se | It had allmost gone a DECade since she heard that *
* A500 T | the first time.... *
Vladimir Elberg
: v...@motel6.wustl.edu (Vladimir Elberg) writes:
: >: They wouldn't get anything near the cost of development. Do you seriously
: >: think there's a big market for an Amiga emulator? If so, you're a loony :-)
: >Whats $150.00 (US dollars) times 2 Million users?
: Are you seriously saying that an Amiga emulator for the PC would sell
: 2 million units? You *ARE* a loony. You'd be lucky, *damned* lucky,
: if you sold 10,000 of them, let alone 2 million. And if you sold it
: for $150, you'd be losing about $150 on each one, so I don't think
: that's a viable business proposition.
: Point #1 - you have no understanding of business or the marketplace.
Well lets see, there are 5 Million Amiga users (or used to be 5 Million), this
is an estimate put out by Amiga user's themselves). I am saying 2 out of 5
Million of the current Amiga users would buy the Amiga Emulator for their PCs.
Most Amiga users usually own a few Amiga computers and at least one PC, this
makes sense. This will not sell Amigas by any means but that would give them
enough money to start "thinking" about a power PC Amiga. Now do you
understand. BTW, most of your post is flamage, so I deleted it. Dont flame,
just agree with me.... :-)
Björn Antonsson
You are contradicting yourself. If the Amiga users own an Amiga and a PC,
then why would they want to buy an Amiga emulator for their PC.
This makes sense. NOT.
Maybe Amiga users could buy an Amiga emulator for their PC-Bridgeboard.
This way they could have an Amiga runnig a PC that emulates an Amiga.
That's almost as good as the Power Mac's =)
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anton, d93...@nada.kth.se Computer Science, KTH, Stockholm, Sweden
\\\\ 'So throw it away, you don't have to take me.
(@ @) Make no mistakes I am what you make me.' - Let me drown / Soundgarden
oOO-(_)-OOo--------------------------------------------------------------------
Maxwell Daymon
: n...@mfltd.co.uk (Nic Percival) writes:
: >The question is then, do complex timing critical interactions between the
: >CPU/blitter/sound chip occur very commonly, or can you fudge the emulator
: >so that it will work for most things at a decent speed? I suspect that this
: >is the case, and you will be able to run a good fraction - but not all -
: >of Amiga software on an emulated Amiga on a PC.
: No, those interactions probably aren't very common. It's never been my
: contention that you couldn't do an emulator for the Amiga OS, or at
: least 99% of the Amiga OS. You just can't do that last 1% in any
: reasonable fashion, and there are things which aren't covered by the OS
: which you can't do at all. Certainly you could do an emulator that ran
: a lot of Amiga software - particularly that which was "OS-friendly" and
: programmed according to Commodore's guidelines. You'd only, then, have
Being the owner of an extended graphics board, I can say that there are
few programs that are so-called "OS-friendly" on the Amiga. Now, for a
dose of reality:
1) Most OS friendly programs are apps like word processors and spreadsheets
2) Clones have more and better word processors and spreadsheets
3) That leaves games
4) 99% of games aren't OS friendly, and MOST of them bypass the OS
completely and "hit the hardware"
: problems with programs which relied on the Amiga-specific hardware
: features like the split screen resolutions, shared palettes, that sort
: of thing.
And that fact that many games (which we've kind of decided as being the
only reason for an emulator) don't even use the OS to change a color -
they bang the hardware, sometimes in obscure ways.
: But who would want to? The only conceivable reason I can see for
: anyone actually wanting an Amiga emulator would be to run Amiga games.
: Certainly there are alternatives available for all of the "ordinary"
: Amiga applications, and in most cases, the alternatives are, in fact,
: somewhat superior to the Amiga's. The special cases where that isn't
: true are special indeed, and I'd tend to think that most people who
: wanted those particular apps already have Amigas. Likewise, those who
: think that, all things considered, the Amiga is still the superior
: platform (which, for the things I do, I do consider it to be) are going
: to have Amigas, and have no interest in an emulator.
Yep, I agree here too. Anyone "die-hard" enough to WANT to run Final
Writer or some such program is going to chose a real Amiga with a
Bridgeboard over a clone box with an Amiga emulator.
(An Amiga with Bridgeboard gives 100% clone compatibility and 100% Amiga
compatibility, while a clone would yeild 100% clone and about 10% Amiga)
--
// |
// Maxwell Daymon | Intel Inside:
\\ // mda...@rmii.com | It's not a trademark, it's a warning
\X/ |
Vladimir Elberg
christmas and it will be easier for them to move into a PC if they have thier
computer being emulated.
Secondly, Amiga users are so desperate now a days they will buy anything
that has the word Amiga on it. Trust me, read some of the Amiga areas and see
for yourself. They are not loyal to Commodore, but Loyal only to Amiga and its
cause. You could call Amiga a religion and you could not use any Amiga
computers in Government institutions. Church n State <Big Grin> ;-)
Erik Lundevall
>yes, but you see there are Amiga users that are going to buy a PC this
>christmas and it will be easier for them to move into a PC if they have thier
>computer being emulated.
I doubt that many Amiga users would do something like that. Either they keep
their Amiga or sell it because they need the money. Buying an emulator for
a lot of money a probably get worse performance than with the real thing
does not really seem like a viable option.
> Secondly, Amiga users are so desperate now a days they will buy anything
>that has the word Amiga on it. Trust me, read some of the Amiga areas and see
>for yourself. They are not loyal to Commodore, but Loyal only to Amiga and its
I read there regulary and I see no reason to trust you on that one.
A few people might behave like that, but there will always be some
with a bit fanatical attitude and not only with the Amiga (just
read in any .advocacy group).
Followups to comp.sys.amiga.advocacy.
Bernd Felsche
>yes, but you see there are Amiga users that are going to buy a PC this
>christmas and it will be easier for them to move into a PC if they have thier
>computer being emulated.
I can't see the logic in the Amiga users wanting the PC to emulate an Amiga.
They already have one.... they can transfer data back and forth, etc.
I actually have 2 Amigas, and old A2000 and an A4000. As a trade-in, the
2000 was worth more to me as a second machine than what was being offered.
--
Bernd Felsche, MetaPro Systems Pty Ltd
328 Albany Highway, Victoria Park, Western Australia
Phone: +61 9 362 9355 Fax: +61 9 472 3337