AppleWin's 5 F8 Monitor ROM versions?

[James Davis]

What are the version numbers and copyright dates of the five F8 Monitor ROMs in AppleWin 1.27.0.0? And, which Manuals did they come from? Or, where were their ROM binaries obtained.

For the purpose of comparing them for differences, I have BSAVEd them and, using CiderPress, converted them over to Windows readable texts of the CiderPress Disassemblies and Hex Dumps.

I would like to give the texts proper titles internally--so that readers and future newbies will know which is which.

These are the file names I am using (assuming how they match the originals):

Freeze's Mon: ?
- Apple II Freeze Monitor [AppleWin FRZMON]

Old Mon: ?
- Apple II System Monitor 1977 [AppleWin OLDMON]

New Mon: ?
- Apple II+ (AutoStart) Monitor II 1978 [AppleWin NEWMON]

A2e Mon: ?
- Apple IIe (AutoStart) Monitor II 1984 [AppleWin A2EMON], Unenhanced

E2e Mon: ?
- Apple IIe (AutoStart) Monitor II 1985 [AppleWin E2EMON], Enhanced Platinum

James Davis

[Nick Westgate]

On Tuesday, 20 March 2018 15:41:36 UTC+13, James Davis wrote:
> What are the version numbers and copyright dates of the five F8 Monitor ROMs in AppleWin 1.27.0.0? And, which Manuals did they come from? Or, where were their ROM binaries obtained.

I presume the //e ones would be from 81 and 84, but remember that these are no longer stand-alone ROMs. At least the enhanced one especially depends on the 80-column firmware (and interrupt handler etc) ROM at $C100-CFFF.

Cheers,
Nick.

[James Davis]

The AppleWin team should know exactly where and when the Monitor ROM code comes from? Is there an historical record that the team keeps?

Otherwise, I need to confirm that the BSAVEs match the code from the real machines and from the tech manuals that came with those machines. If I have to, I'll use the copyright date of the matching manual (or the listing in it) to date the code. The manuals I do have are from 1978 for the Apple II (the RED BOOK), 1979 for the Apple II Plus, 1985 for the Apple IIc, 1985 and 1986 for the Enhanced Apple IIe. I don't have a manual (or monitor listing) for the original Apple IIe, so I don't really know what year that was. You say 1981 for that one. I'll need to find a downloadable PDF for that one. I'll also need (to download) binaries that can be precisely matched to their respective machines/year (for the final confirmation comparison).

[Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev]

> The AppleWin team should know exactly where and when the Monitor ROM code comes from? Is there an historical record that the team keeps?

James, you _do_ realize that the current team that maintains AppleWin, Tom, Me, and Nick, is NOT the same team as the original author, Mike O'Brian, right?

When I joined back ~2005 those ROM's were _already_ there.

That said, yes, we "should" know when, where, what, etc. the Monitor ROMs come from. It sounds like you are volunteering? :-)
i.e. Who knows how many revisions of Freeze's ROM there are/were.

At some point I'll do a ROM dump of all my Apple 2's (][+, //e, //c, //c+, Laser 128, Laser 128 EX) so we have a byte-for-byte difference. But that is extremely low priority for the next few years.

[Steve Nickolas]

For what it's worth I have a dump (might not be accurate for the 256 bytes
that cannot be read by software) of my Platinum's ROM that I made probably
around 2004 or 2005.

-uso.

[Nick Westgate]

On Thursday, 22 March 2018 12:53:57 UTC+13, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> For what it's worth I have a dump (might not be accurate for the 256 bytes
> that cannot be read by software) of my Platinum's ROM that I made probably
> around 2004 or 2005.

Oh, is it not zeroes? The MAME apple2ee one has zeroes.

The ROM 4 //c one which I contributed to MESS had zeroes, but at least one other //c ROM has:
Peter Quinn, Rick Rice, Joe Ennis, J MacDougall, Ken Victor, E Beernink, JR Huston, RC Williams, S DesJardin, Randy Bleske, Rob Gemmell, Stan Robbins, Donna Keyes, Doug Farrar, Rich Jordan, Jerry Devlin, John Medica, B Etheredge, Dave Downey, Conrad Rogers

Cheers,
Nick.

[Nick Westgate]

On Thursday, 22 March 2018 12:53:57 UTC+13, Steve Nickolas wrote:

> For what it's worth I have a dump (might not be accurate for the 256 bytes
> that cannot be read by software) of my Platinum's ROM that I made probably
> around 2004 or 2005.

Ah, misread. You dumped it from inside the machine. ; - )

Cheers,
Nick.

[James Davis]

These are the candidates I have so far:

FRZMON.BIN = ?

OLDMON.BIN = Apple II - 341-0004 - Integer BASIC Monitor F800 - 2716.bin

NEWMON.BIN = Apple II+ - 341-0020 - Applesoft BASIC Autostart Monitor F800 - 2716.bin

________________________________ Apple IIe CD Unenhanced - 342-0135-B - 2764.bin
A2EMON.BIN = [? last quarter of] Apple IIe EF Unenhanced - 342-0134-A - 2764.bin

________________________________ Apple IIe CD Enhanced - 342-0304-A - 2764.bin
E2EMON.BIN = [? last quarter of] Apple IIe EF Enhanced - 342-0303-A - 2764.bin

________________________________ Apple IIe EF Enhanced Boot Mod - 342-0303-A - 2764.bin

Out of the:

APPLE Computer and Peripheral Card Roms Collection.zip

From:

ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/emulators/rom_images/

The AppleWin Apple II/II+ monitors are exact matches as indicated above.

I have not figured out how to separate the last quarter of the 8k binaries for a proper comparison yet, though. I will probably have to BSAVE the whole 8k (or 16k) from each of AppleWin's Apple IIe and Enhanced Apple IIe modes to make the comparison. I might as well compare all of the C,D,E,F ranges.

[James Davis]

Yes. I know. And, things get lost and forgotten. Sorry.

[James Davis]

It may be in the zip above. I think I read an Apple Tech Note about how to do it once. Doesn't it ($C000-$C0FF) get mapped to the other $D000-$DFFF bank (1 or 2), or something?

[Nick Westgate]

On Thursday, 22 March 2018 19:59:34 UTC+13, James Davis wrote:
> Doesn't it ($C000-$C0FF) get mapped to the other $D000-$DFFF bank (1 or 2), or something?

No, but in a //e LC Bank 1 accesses are mapped (internally) to a CXXX address in onboard RAM.

I reference it in my answer to this question:
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/6019/is-all-100-of-a-64k-apple-ii-memory-usable

Cheers,
Nick.

[James Davis]

Nice answer Nick. I read that Sather book, too. IIRC, $D000-$DFFF bank2 is the default bank when you power up, and bank1 is the bank that is hidden, right?

[James Davis]

To the AppleWin team:

These are the right sources:

FRZMON.BIN = Apple II+ - Freeze's Integer BASIC Non-Autostart F800 v1 - 2716.bin
-- or --
FRZMON.BIN = Apple II+ - Freeze's Integer BASIC Non-Autostart F800 v2 - 2716.bin

OLDMON.BIN = Apple II - 341-0004 - Integer BASIC Monitor F800 - 2716.bin

NEWMON.BIN = Apple II+ - 341-0020 - Applesoft BASIC Autostart Monitor F800 - 2716.bin

A2EMON.BIN = [last quarter of] Apple IIe EF Unenhanced - 342-0134-A - 2764.bin

E2EMON.BIN = [last quarter of] Apple IIe EF Enhanced - 342-0303-A - 2764.bin

Out of the:

APPLE Computer and Peripheral Card Roms Collection.zip

From:

ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/emulators/rom_images/

The AppleWin Apple II/II+/Freeze/IIe/E.IIe monitors are exact matches as indicated above.

> I have not figured out how to separate the last quarter of the 8k binaries for a proper comparison yet, though. I will probably have to BSAVE the whole 8k (or 16k) from each of AppleWin's Apple IIe and Enhanced Apple IIe modes to make the comparison. I might as well compare all of the C,D,E,F ranges.

Forget comparing $C100-$F7FF. There are too many things in there that change from disk to disk and session to session and with different (other people's) computers. Three or four parts of it don't change, but the stuff between them does. Besides, I am really only interested in the F8 monitors.

I will send my research to anyone on the AppleWin team that wants to see it. Just let me know your email address by responding privately to this post.

James Davis

[Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev]

Thanks for the doing the leg work and tracking these down James.

I already a 230 GB mirror of Asimov so I'm set with "APPLE Computer and Peripheral Card Roms Collection.zip" (I'm assuming it hasn't changed the 2010 upload date.)

I guess the next phase would be to file a GitHub Feature Request summarizing exactly what you would like to see in a future AppleWin version.

* Apple ][ with Applesoft pre-loaded into the LC at boot
* Apple ][+ with IntBasic pre-loaded into the LC at boot

Was that correct?

[Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev]

> $D000-$DFFF bank2 is the default bank when you power up, and bank1 is the bank that is hidden, right?

Does anyone have a source for that?

Just wanted to confirm that is exactly what the hardware is doing.

[James Davis]

Yes, that and the ability to load the language card with other languages, like Pascal, at bootup; and, to emulate the actual Integer and/or Applesoft BASIC slot 0 hardware ROM cards in the AppleWin Apple II+ and Apple II, respectively, for testing, just in case they have some anomalies that don't show up with the "80-column Extended (+64k) Language Card!"

[James Davis]

Yes, Apple IIe Technical Reference Manual (copyright © 1986), Chapter 4: Memory Organization, Section: Bank-switched Memory, Sub-section: Setting bank switches, page 83, paragraphs 5 & 6:

"When you turn power on or reset the Apple Ile, it initializes the bank
switches for reading the ROM and writing the RAM, using the
second bank of RAM. Note that this is different from the reset on the
Apple II Plus, which didn't affect the bank-switched memory (the
language card). On the Apple Ile, you can't use the reset vector to
return control to a program in bank-switched memory, as you could
on the Apple II Plus.

"* Reset with Integer BASIC: When you are using Integer BASIC
on the Apple IIe, reset works correctly, restarting BASIC with
your program intact. This happens because the reset vector
transfers control to DOS, and DOS resets the switches for the
current version of BASIC."

[Nick Westgate]

On Sunday, 25 March 2018 04:40:10 UTC+13, Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev wrote:
> > $D000-$DFFF bank2 is the default bank when you power up, and bank1 is the bank that is hidden, right?

Yes.

> Does anyone have a source for that?

Sather, //e, page 5-25 item 4.

Cheers,
Nick.

[Nick Westgate]

On Sunday, 25 March 2018 19:01:10 UTC+13, Nick Westgate wrote:
> Sather, //e, page 5-25 item 4.

Oops, page 5-23.

Cheers,
Nick.