Union or Non-union, who does what?
E. H. Krieter
everyone to see what reality might actually be. So, here goes...
1. In the closets with networking equipment in your facilities, are
non-IBEW workers denied access to them?
2. How do you determine what is Union or Non-union work?
3. Where can I find out what the rules are in regards to Union work?
4. Is it justifiable to claim that patch cables are not the province
of the union because they do not require a tool in ones hand?
Thanks!
Dale Farmer
It all depends on what the language are in the various labor
union contracts in effect at the site, and the willingness of the
union folks to do vandalism and bodily harm to those folks that
are perceived as "anti-union" or "scabs". It also depends on who's
property the cables/patch panels are.
From the way you are phrasing the questions, the union(s)
are already at the site, and there is some dispute as to whether
you will have to hire the union hands to do tasks X, Y, and Z.
The legal jurisdiction is determined by the language of the
labor contract and the policies of the property owner. There
should be some arbitration or resolution process spelled out
in the labor contract for handling disputes. I suggest getting an
opinion from the corporate counsel on the legal aspects, and
proceeding from there.
The real issue is how much are you willing to risk the
possibility if vandalism and/or sabotage to the site by
disgruntled union workers. The adverse publicity of a picket
line in front of the site. Vandalism to your own personal
property by 'anonymous vandals'. Threats of bodily harm to you,
your non-union employees, and family members. While most unions
do not use these measures anymore, there are enough of them that
have that you should consider the possibility.
In practice, a particular company will be either all union
or no union at all. Outside contractors may or may not be covered
in the collective bargaining agreements.
--Dale
te...@toybox.placo.com
>"E. H. Krieter" wrote:
>>
>> I have some questions that I thought I would throw out to
>> everyone to see what reality might actually be. So, here goes...
>>
>> 1. In the closets with networking equipment in your facilities, are
>> non-IBEW workers denied access to them?
>>
>possibility if vandalism and/or sabotage to the site by
>disgruntled union workers. The adverse publicity of a picket
About 10 years back I belonged to IBEW for a couple of summers. (temporary
employment)
I have to say that while you might find the Teamsters (or even teachers unions
for that matter) doing that shit, when I was a member I've never heard of an IBEW
union worker doing anything like that, and if anyone did they wouldn't be on the
jobsite for long. Remember IBEW alone of all the unions has never gone on strike.
Now, the one thing I'll say that if you do have a wiring closet that is set up in
a particular manner according to a particular plan, and you bring in a third
contractor to do something that doesn't follow the plan, then don't be surprised
if the next time that the IBEW worker goes in there you find all the work torn
out. If you want to class this as vandalism then so be it - but I've been in enough
wiring closets that were literal hairballs because of johnny-on-the-street just
"running a few additional drops" to think of it more as "cleaning up the mess"
Ted
Joe Golan, RCDD
ekri...@mcs.net (E. H. Krieter) wrote:
> I have some questions that I thought I would throw out to
> everyone to see what reality might actually be. So, here goes...
>
> 1. In the closets with networking equipment in your facilities, are
> non-IBEW workers denied access to them?
>
>
> 3. Where can I find out what the rules are in regards to Union work?
>
> 4. Is it justifiable to claim that patch cables are not the province
> of the union because they do not require a tool in ones hand?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
You did not identify what part of the country you are talking about and
the working rules and electrical codes differ around the country. But
in general here are the answers to your questions.
1. How can you restrict access to the wiring closet if you need work
performed in there, generally this answer is NO...they are allowed
access.
2. This needs to be addressed locally and different parts of the
country have different working rules.....my advise is contact the
Business Manager of the local IBEW hall for information. BTW there is
actual definition of "non-union" work that I have ever run across.
3. This also needs to addressed locally to the Business Manager of the
IBEW for your jurisdiction.
4. Tool requirements are not the guideline here. You need to speak to
the local business manager of the IBEW on this also to see what applies
in your area.
Besides the local union rules and agreements, your area may also
require licensing for low voltage work which the IBEW contractor may
offer as part of his package in addition to a trained work force.
--
Best regards,
Joe Golan, RCDD
Director of Telecommunications - Petrocelli
Communications - LIC, NY
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Dale Farmer
>
> In <3750D401...@cybercom.net>, Dale Farmer <da...@cybercom.net> writes:
> >>
> >> I have some questions that I thought I would throw out to
> >> everyone to see what reality might actually be. So, here goes...
> >>
> >> 1. In the closets with networking equipment in your facilities, are
> >> non-IBEW workers denied access to them?
> >>
> >possibility if vandalism and/or sabotage to the site by
> >disgruntled union workers. The adverse publicity of a picket
>
> About 10 years back I belonged to IBEW for a couple of summers. (temporary
> employment)
>
> I have to say that while you might find the Teamsters (or even teachers unions
> for that matter) doing that shit, when I was a member I've never heard of an IBEW
> union worker doing anything like that, and if anyone did they wouldn't be on the
> jobsite for long. Remember IBEW alone of all the unions has never gone on strike.
>
> Now, the one thing I'll say that if you do have a wiring closet that is set up in
> a particular manner according to a particular plan, and you bring in a third
> contractor to do something that doesn't follow the plan, then don't be surprised
> if the next time that the IBEW worker goes in there you find all the work torn
> out. If you want to class this as vandalism then so be it - but I've been in enough
> wiring closets that were literal hairballs because of johnny-on-the-street just
> "running a few additional drops" to think of it more as "cleaning up the mess"
>
> Ted
I have seen both IBEW and CWA go on strike, and during that strike
something like
half a million dollars worth of damage done and shots fired at the
building.
And this was just the site I was at, I heard stories that this was not
that
unusual. (This was during the last general strike against AT&T,
pre-breakup)
and that the incidents were not to be talked about to the police, or
reported
to anybody in writing. Watching the hatred and viciousness of that
strike
turned me against big unions in a big way. I don't want any part of
that kind
of organized hate.
--Dale
Terry Kennedy
> I have seen both IBEW and CWA go on strike, and during that strike
> something like
> half a million dollars worth of damage done and shots fired at the
> building.
> And this was just the site I was at, I heard stories that this was not
> that
> unusual.
Ahh yes, CWA strikes. You know how you compute the age of a tree by counting
the rings? Well, you can count the number of strikes by counting the number of
splices in one particular 200-pair drop cable near my office.
I also observed a pickup truck pull up to a pedestal box, run a chain through
the eye rings on the box and around the trailer hitch on the bumper, and take
off with the pedestal in tow. The next time I walked past it, the ripped-out
cable ends (600-pair and up) had "Screw 'em blue in '92" stickers plastered
all over them.
Terry Kennedy Operations Manager, Academic Computing
te...@spcvxa.spc.edu St. Peter's College, Jersey City, NJ USA
+1 201 915 9381 (voice) +1 201 435-3662 (FAX)
NO SPAM
> I have some questions that I thought I would throw out to
> everyone to see what reality might actually be. So, here goes...
> 1. In the closets with networking equipment in your facilities, are
> non-IBEW workers denied access to them?
> 2. How do you determine what is Union or Non-union work?
> 3. Where can I find out what the rules are in regards to Union work?
> 4. Is it justifiable to claim that patch cables are not the province
> of the union because they do not require a tool in ones hand?
I'm a member of the union, but it's CSEA, California State Educators
Association. They're not affiliated with anything, AFAIK. We can't
even strike. So what's the point? Just another way of taking our
money, I guess.
In any case, talk to the local union reps at the local of the union.
The Pac Bell employess that I make contact with are CWA, not IBEW, so
I can't help much.
> Thanks!
Ted Mittelstaedt
Dale Farmer wrote in message <37534CBA...@cybercom.net>...
>
>I have seen both IBEW and CWA go on strike, and during that strike
>something like
>half a million dollars worth of damage done and shots fired at the
>building.
>And this was just the site I was at, I heard stories that this was not
>that
I would suspect that CWA initiated it - pre-breakup would put it late 70's I
think. It was pretty usual around that time for unions to support each
other during a strike, although they don't seem to do so much anymore.
I'd be interested to know what set them off.
>pre-breakup)
>and that the incidents were not to be talked about to the police, or
>reported
>to anybody in writing.
Watching the hatred and viciousness of that
>strike
>turned me against big unions in a big way. I don't want any part of
>that kind
>of organized hate.
>
It's no different than what goes on in the boardroom - witness all of the
e-mails that have been produced from Microsoft where the big bill was
telling people he wanted to crush so-and-so.
I personally don't care much for the unions these days either. What I see
going on is the union organizations are all out there attempting to organize
groups like doctors and IT people, in other words they are attempting to
organize the groups of people that make a lot of money. However, you take a
look at agriculture, or fast food, or groups of workers that would really
benefit from unionization, and you have to look long and hard for a union
organizer, and your never going to see the kind of money poured into
organizing those groups that is put into the others. This is as far and
away from the roots of organized labor as you can get.
The state I live in, Oregon, has this huge Mexican migrant population that
moves in to pick berries and fruit during the season, and I can't see as how
the FarmWorkers Union has done diddly squat for those poor folks. Instead,
it's like there's this huge conspircy to let the illegals in to do the
seasonal work, then boot them out as fast as possible when it's over. Of
course this does nothing at all to help raise the average wage for farm
workers. Yet, yesterday I read how there is this huge fight to let some
doctor group organize in the city - it's like they don't already have enough
money. Geeze.
Ted
E. H. Krieter
1. I work in the mid-west.
2. The IS department provides all materials. Patch panel and cords,
horizontal cabling, wire minders, everything.
3. I don't really have any problem with the Union guys doing our
cabling. But it seems that we can't share the closet space. To wit, I
want my non-union LAN admins to be able to go into the closet on
occasion to patch thru a connection, check for link lights, sniff the
network and so on. The Union guys assert that ONLY they can move patch
cables. I have a big problem with that!
4. Now, they think they can move Ethernet cards (in the chassis)
around when they want! Actually, they did without my approval!
5. Right now the HIS department has no keys to the closets.
Personally, I find this unacceptable.
6. I am the Network Manager and untimately responsible for the entire
network. The telco guys work for a different department.
On Sun, 30 May 1999 02:52:59 GMT, ekri...@mcs.net (E. H. Krieter)
wrote:
> I have some questions that I thought I would throw out to
>everyone to see what reality might actually be. So, here goes...
>
>1. In the closets with networking equipment in your facilities, are
>non-IBEW workers denied access to them?
>
>2. How do you determine what is Union or Non-union work?
>
>3. Where can I find out what the rules are in regards to Union work?
>
>4. Is it justifiable to claim that patch cables are not the province
>of the union because they do not require a tool in ones hand?
>
>Thanks!
>
>
wbro...@my-deja.com
Step 1. Get together with the telephone group and write a joint company
policy on access to the closets and the roles each group fills.
Step 2. Send a copy to the errant union stating they have one week (5
working days) to comply.
Step 3. Send a letter to the union stating they are not in compliance
with published company procedures after the 5 day period. Demand they
return all keys and relinquish control of the closets within an
additional 5 working days.
Step 4. Change the locks on the closets and hire a different company to
perform your cabling. (In other words, lock the union out.) To the
best of my knowledge there are no states or cities that require you to
use only union help as most now have right to work laws allowing YOU
the owner/customer to hire whomever you desire. I'm not a union
buster, but when someone forgets who actually pays their salaries and
what customer service actually means, I tend to get fiesty.
---
William "Bill" Brownlow
"While my employer has their opinions, I have
mine. Occasionally they
converge"
NO SPAM
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
[snip]
> workers. Yet, yesterday I read how there is this huge fight to let some
> doctor group organize in the city - it's like they don't already have enough
> money. Geeze.
> Ted
I think the reason for the health providers organizing is that they're
under pressure from the HMOs to control costs, and so have lost
ground. There's a difference between not having much to begin with
and not losing anything, compared to having something and then losing
it. Not that I'm trying to justify what's happening to the farm
laborers or anything.
Alfredo De La Fé
Our shop is part of CWA local 1101 in New York. As far as union labor goes,
either CWA or IBEW can perform low voltage work, as well as a couple of
other unions (I believe that the Teamsters have a cabling division)
What determines whether the work has to be union or non-union is really the
building management and the owner of the business. In either case, if a
tool is involved then you probably would have a union issue.
-Alfred
E. H. Krieter wrote in message <3750a508....@news.mcs.net>...
te...@toybox.placo.com
>
>I think the reason for the health providers organizing is that they're
>under pressure from the HMOs to control costs, and so have lost
>ground. There's a difference between not having much to begin with
>and not losing anything, compared to having something and then losing
>it. Not that I'm trying to justify what's happening to the farm
Well, the HMOs can get away with pushing around doctors because frankly there
are too many of them, the med schools are graduating them in record numbers.
They know that if the doctors get mad and leave there are always lots of
younger/cheaper ones ready to take their place. It's the same with the teaching
profession.
Ted
NO SPAM
> Ted
Well, it's the same with the whole work force, which has been aging.
As far as the HMOs pushing around anyone, I guess they're being
pressured by govt also. Not that this is a justification for what
they may be doing. In any case, I believe that professionals like
doctors have been exempted from the labor laws.
William G. Lamm
personally, this IBEW Communications Tech only lets IBEW members work on the
work specked in the bid contract, if the client wants to come in and do work in
the closet that is not covered in the contract I am fulfilling then I don't see
any room to argue unless the work is being done too soon and may inhibit my
crews progress. If a non-Union contracter has been hired to ??? hook up hubs and
servers and I am only doing the Premise cabling then they are usualy comming in
as I leave and I just give them a rundown of the lay out before I head to the
next job... we are all just trying to pay the bills??? arent we??