[TELECOM] Do rate centers cross state lines? Excluding portability, do unique NPA/NXX combinations cross state or county boundaries?
Steve Stone
Excluding portability, do wired (not wireless) unique NPA/NXX
combinations cross state or county boundaries?
Why?
I'm working on a couple of databases used to send the right tech to the
right location based on
the callers NPA/NXX and zipcode, but if the NPA/NXX combo is used in
other zipcodes besides the one the tech services,
I have flag the call as going to the other tech. If NPA/NXX combinations
do not cross state lines (or perhaps even county lines) it makes my
coding alot easier. If NPA/NXX combos do cross state lines I have to
compare the source data to 3.5 plus million possible combinations of
NPA,NXX, and zipcodes.
Thanks
Steve
73 de N2UBP
Rupa Schomaker
> Do rate centers cross state lines?
>
> Excluding portability, do wired (not wireless) unique NPA/NXX
> combinations cross state or county boundaries?
Portability still uses the original rate center as far as I know. Same
with wireless. The # assigned has a specified ratecenter which is used to
compute ld charges for wireline customers.
NPA/ratecenter:
select npa, ratecenter, count(state)
from (select distinct npa, ratecenter, state from npa_nxx_company_ocn) as s
group by npa, ratecenter
having count(state) > 1;
npa | ratecenter | count
-----+------------+-------
(0 rows)
My database shows that there are no cases of a npa/ratecenter that crosses
state lines.
NPA only:
select npa, count(state)
from (select distinct npa, state from npa_nxx_company_ocn) as s
group by npa
having count(state) > 1;
npa | count
-----+-------
(0 rows)
No NPA crosses state lines either.
> Why?
> I'm working on a couple of databases used to send the right tech to
> the right location based on the callers NPA/NXX and zipcode, but if
> the NPA/NXX combo is used in other zipcodes besides the one the tech
> services, I have flag the call as going to the other tech. If
> NPA/NXX combinations do not cross state lines (or perhaps even
> county lines) it makes my coding alot easier. If NPA/NXX combos do
> cross state lines I have to compare the source data to 3.5 plus
> million possible combinations of NPA,NXX, and zipcodes.
Thats what a database is for. Mine is kinda small (164,900 entries) 'cause
it has only resolution to the lata at the NPA/NXX level. I suppose if I
loaded a lata->zip table it would expand out to 3.5M.
My database doesn't have county so I can't verify that though a zip->county
table (or lata->counties if it existed) could also handle that.
Thanks
--
-Rupa
GlowingBlueMist
border areas between Massachusetts and Rhode Island there were Rhode
Island houses being assigned Massachusetts area codes and numbers due to
their distance from Rhode Island phone exchanges.
You might need to contact the public service people who service those
two states and see if they still have this or no longer do it.
Fred Goldstein
>Do rate centers cross state lines?
As a general rule, no. Rate centers (actually exchange areas, the
polygons corresponding to a rate center point) are state-regulated
constructs. There are some semi-exceptions, "localities" where a
border area is served across the state line, but most of these are
treated as two rate centers nowadays, even if they have the same
local calling area, etc.
>Excluding portability, do wired (not wireless) unique NPA/NXX
>combinations cross state or county boundaries?
>
>Why?
Not state boundaries. An NPA/NXX combination is always assigned to a
single rate center. It may be shared by multiple carriers, who may
even home their switches on different tandems (ATT and Q allow that
on their tandems; VZ does not), but it's one rate center, which is one state.
Counties have no telecom-specific meaning. Rate center areas cross
them all the time.
>I'm working on a couple of databases used to send the right tech to the
>right location based on
>the callers NPA/NXX and zipcode, but if the NPA/NXX combo is used in
>other zipcodes besides the one the tech services,
>I have flag the call as going to the other tech. If NPA/NXX combinations
>do not cross state lines (or perhaps even county lines) it makes my
>coding alot easier. If NPA/NXX combos do cross state lines I have to
>compare the source data to 3.5 plus million possible combinations of
>NPA,NXX, and zipcodes.
Rate center area boundaries and ZIP code boundaries do not line up.
Also bear in mind that mobile phone rate center assignments are
sometimes rather arbitrary and do not necessarily align with where a
customer lives, let alone where they are at the time. There's all
sorts of ugly history behind that but let's not dwell on it here.
--
Fred Goldstein k1io fgoldstein "at" ionary.com
ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/
+1 617 795 2701
John Levine
>combinations cross state or county boundaries?
Rate centers certainly cross county lines. My rate center Trumansburg
NY (see prefix 607-387) covers parts of three different counties.
There certainly used to be rural places where a telco in one state
picked up a few customers in another state, but I don't know if they
still do that. Just to deal with the regulators it'd be a lot easier
for the telcos to make them different rate centers, even if they're
still wired from the other state.
R's,
John
jsw
>combinations cross state or county boundaries?
In the Omaha area, the rate center spans two counties, Douglas
and Sarpy, and if you count one little burg on the very edge,
yes, part of Washington County as well.
Two of the major COs here are on Harrison Street, the county
line, and are only a few feet into Sarpy County. The NPA/NXX
boundaries extend well into both counties.
The rate centers around here do not, however, straddle state
lines. One geographic oddity which is discussed occasionally
here is that of Carter Lake, Iowa. This is politically in
Iowa, but geographically on the Iowa side of the river. Carter
Lake is served primarily by a downtown Omaha CO, but in the
712 area code and a different rate center.
A good write-up of this situation is here:
http://omahatelephonehistory.blogspot.com/2010/01/carter-lake.html
Some of the CLECs which serve Council Bluffs, Iowa, host
their services out of switches on the Nebraska side of the
river as well, but the NPA-NXXs are indeed in the Council
Bluffs rate center.
Carl Navarro
wrote:
>>Excluding portability, do wired (not wireless) unique NPA/NXX
>>combinations cross state or county boundaries?
>
>In the Omaha area, the rate center spans two counties, Douglas
>and Sarpy, and if you count one little burg on the very edge,
>yes, part of Washington County as well.They are
The little town I lived in (419-483) happens to be divided in half by
a county line, and there are 2 other counties North and South, so the
physical exchange straddles FOUR counties.
http://www.puc.state.oh.us/pucogis/easmaps/BLLV.pdf
Sensibly, we have an area code overlay (567) and it didn't destroy the
419 NW Ohio area code scheme.
The odd exchange boundary I'm familiar with is 419-885 and 734-888.
Sylvania OH and North Sylvania, MI. They are served by the same
switch in Sylvania OH, so 419-888 is unavailable and 734-885 is
unavailable in MI. For billing purposes, each has a different LATA,
but the PUCO map shows the bump on the state line to cover the
community. http://www.puc.state.oh.us/pucogis/easmaps/SYVN.pdf
Carl
Lisa or Jeff
> Do rate centers cross state lines?
>
> Excluding portability, do wired (not wireless) unique NPA/NXX
> combinations cross state or county boundaries?
>
> Why?
> I'm working on a couple of databases used to send the right tech to the
> right location based on
> the callers NPA/NXX and zipcode, but if the NPA/NXX combo is used in
> other zipcodes besides the one the tech services,
As others answered, rate centers certainly cross county boundaries and
are NOT correlated with municipalities, postal names, nor zip codes.
As to assigning a worker based on a caller's NPA/NXX, keep in mind
that callers for service work often are not calling from the location
where service is desired. First, many people use their cellphone
which may be assigned to a distant rate center. Secondly, many people
call from their job location to request service work at their home.
Steve Stone
> that callers for service work often are not calling from the location
> where service is desired.
Thanks to everyone for the great information.
The NPA/NXX data from ANI is being used to send service requests to
sub groups of dispatchers. The dispatchers then send a trouble ticket
to the tech who covers the customers specific area. They are using
ANI to route calls to different dispatching groups.
Steve
David Kaye
>In the Omaha area, the rate center spans two counties, Douglas
>and Sarpy, and if you count one little burg on the very edge,
>yes, part of Washington County as well.
There is an assumption among some people that counties are some special
miracle land. While in California it's true that cities don't span counties,
in Oregon they do. Portland, for instance, is in parts of 3 counties.
As to NPA/NXX spanning, there are rural areas where it's easier to service one
state from another. I seem to remember a small area of northern California
serviced from Oregon. I'm trying to find the actual communities but can't at
the moment. I believe this is also true between California and Nevada.
***** Moderator's Note *****
When I was a computer programmer at NYNEX, we had to make a lot of
exceptions in our code for a town in the far North of Maine which was
served from an exchange in Canada.
Bill Horne
Moderator
David Lesher
>There is an assumption among some people that counties are some special
>miracle land. While in California it's true that cities don't span counties,
>in Oregon they do. Portland, for instance, is in parts of 3 counties.
Laurel MD is split between 3 counties, 2 or 3 cable co's and two
NPA/LATA's.
There are multiple cases of small border communities served by
the adjacent state. Some of these are being undone because of
Verizontal's fire sale to Frontier. [But it's LOTS easier to put
in a tiny CO than it was in step era.] Others will remain. (Is
South Bags CO still served from their northern neighbor's CO?)
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Wes...@aol.com
In a message dated 8/1/2010 9:49:19 AM Central Daylight Time,
sfdavi...@yahoo.com writes:
> There is an assumption among some people that counties are some
> special miracle land. While in California it's true that cities don't
> span counties, in Oregon they do. Portland, for instance, is in parts
> of 3 counties.
Oklahoma City is in parts of five counties. Tulsa, I believe, is in
three. There is a small town in south central Oklahoma that sits astride a
county line. The newspaper is in one county, the post office a block away in
the other county. It required legislative action to decide which county the
newspaper was the legal newspaper for.
Many exchanges in Kansas extend into Oklahoma because of the way the state
was settled--by runs. So there are many towns that extended to near the
Oklahoma border before the state was opened to nom-Indian settlement and
they naturally extended into Oklahoma when the state was settled. They have
to have different NPA~NNXs to identify calls as interstate or intrastate.
LATAs can cross state lines. But that doesn't move the state
boundary--just the LATA boundary.
The Oklahoma Panhandle is in the Amarillo LATA. A town which crosses the
state line has the elementary school in one state, the high school in the
other. That took an act of the legislatures in both states.
The Fort Smith LATA extends into several suburbs on Oklahoma. But
exchanges (and rate centers) have the NPA-NNX corresponding to the state they're
in. There is EAS between them, across the state line.
As to NPA/NXX spanning, there are rural areas where it's easier to
service one state from another. I seem to remember a small area of
northern California serviced from Oregon. I'm trying to find the
actual communities but can't at the moment. I believe this is also
true between California and Nevada.
Wes Leatherock
wes...@aol.com
wlea...@yahoo.com
jsw
>as interstate or intrastate.
Prior to the Great ESS Invasion <g> there were several cases
of towns on the Nebraska/South Dakota border which shared not
only a physical CO but a set of XXXX numbers as well, with
separate but totally interchangeable NPA-NXXs.
The towns would be something like Dorking, NE and North Dorking,
SD and between the two they would typically have only a couple
hundred subscriber lines, if that. You would see listed numbers
such as 402-569 for Dorking, NE and 605-436 for North Dorking,
SD. The two would share (part of) a thousands level, with some
of them aliased to the 9000 level as well to serve the 1-2 pay
phones in the area.
These would typically be AE step offices.
Phone 'enthusiasts' often picked up the fact that the two
NPA-NXXs were aliased to each other, and that a subscriber
served by the office, on either side of the fence, could be
dialed equally well using either NPA-NXX. A subscriber listed
in Dorking, NE at 402-569-7635, for example, could also be
dialed using 605-436-7635.
I'm quite sure that numerous folks figured out that there was
a possibility of some game-playing to get around those extortive
intrastate rates which prevailed during the Step Days. I'm also
sure that the PTB at TPC and the PSCs knew it as well, but saw
the revenue loss as minimal.
Of course, dialing quirks such as this disappeared as those
offices 'went ESS' one by one.
I'm sure there were countless examples of similar schemes in
other areas as well.
>LATAs can cross state lines. But that doesn't move the state
>boundary--just the LATA boundary.
The Omaha LATA, 644, extends westward from west central Iowa
all the way to Valentine, NE, in the northwest part of the
state. IIRC there are a couple 'fingers' of 644 which extend
into South Dakota as well.
John David Galt
> As to NPA/NXX spanning, there are rural areas where it's easier to service one
> state from another. I seem to remember a small area of northern California
> serviced from Oregon. I'm trying to find the actual communities but can't at
> the moment. I believe this is also true between California and Nevada.
I've found only one case: a "Verdi, CA" exchange in 530 is served by a switch in
Verdi, NV. There is no town of Verdi in CA; the nearest town in CA is Farad
(exit 201 on I-80). Most of the terrain in between is inaccessible mountains
(that stretch of I-80 runs along the narrow Truckee River canyon), so whoever is
on the "Verdi, CA" exchange must be awfully hard to get to.
danny burstein
We've had two in the larger NYC area.
First is Fisher's Island, in Long Island Sound. Legally
it's part of Suffolk County, an eastern NYC suburb.
Per the Wiki writeup, though, it's "2 miles (3 km) off the
southeastern coast of Connecticut across Fishers Island Sound.
It is approx. 11 miles (18 km) from the tip of Long Island (NY)..."
The physical phone lines are run from Ct. central offices.
The other is the community of Marble Hill in Northern Manhattan.
The physical phone cables run through a Bronx central office,
and during the breakup of the (212) area code, these folk,
despite being in Manhattan, were assigned into the new (718) one.
(With the more modern carrier trunks and switches that don't
care about distance, I wouldn't make any bets on the
current arrangement).
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
The Kaminsky Family
> In <i38t25$ed7$1...@blue.rahul.net> John David Galt <j...@diogenes.sacramento.ca.us> writes:
> The other is the community of Marble Hill in Northern Manhattan.
> The physical phone cables run through a Bronx central office,
> and during the breakup of the (212) area code, these folk,
> despite being in Manhattan, were assigned into the new (718) one.
A little background on Marble Hill. The border between the island
of Manhattan and the mainland (the Bronx) was (until the early 1900's)
Spuyten Duyvil Creek (don't trust me on the spelling; it means "in
spite of the devil" in Dutch [1]). In 1909 (as I remember it, but don't
bet on the date), the Harlem River Ship Canal was built to connect
the Harlem River to the Hudson River, enabling navigation around
what was left of Manhattan Island. Marble Hill is the portion of
the old island north of the canal. It is now on the mainland,
and every couple of years when I was growing up there the borough
president of the Bronx would come to Marble Hill and try to claim
it for the Bronx - to no avail. The neighborhood is served by
the Bronx Post Office, [ob telecom] Bronx central offices (I am
guessing more than one, but do not know for certain), and Bronx schools,
but votes in New York County with Manhattan Island.
No surprise that they went to 718 with the Bronx.
Mark
[1] In the time before the English took over New Amsterdam (memory
says that was 1664 - but it has been many years since grade school),
a Dutch colonist had to cross the creek on an urgent errand (I've
forgotten what, but it was a matter of life and death). Now the
tides go up the Hudson well past this point, and when the creek
was high, the water at the junction of the creek and the river
was pretty wild. So the colonist said, "in spite of the devil"
and swam across. I cannot remember whether he survived, but
I suspect the creek would have been named after him if he perished.
I have never understood why he didn't try to cross further upstream,
where it had to be smoother.
John Levine
>it's part of Suffolk County, an eastern NYC suburb.
Right, it's always been connected to New London, which is much closer
than Long Island where the rest of Suffolk County is. I recall some
articles a while ago about the complicated stuff they had to do to
route 911 calls through AT&T and two ILECs to get them back to the
center in Long Island.
>The other is the community of Marble Hill in Northern Manhattan.
>The physical phone cables run through a Bronx central office,
>and during the breakup of the (212) area code, these folk,
>despite being in Manhattan, were assigned into the new (718) one.
Marble Hill is physically part of the Bronx. When they blasted out
the Harlem River, which separates the Bronx from Manhattan, to make it
more navigable in the 1800s, they rerouted it from north of Marble
Hill to south. The residents feel very strongly that they are
Manhattanites and have objected to attempts to give them area codes or
zip codes that suggest otherwise.
R's,
John
Mark J. Cuccia
> As to NPA/NXX spanning, there are rural areas where it's easier to
> service one state from another. I seem to remember a small area of
> northern California serviced from Oregon. I'm trying to find the
> actual communities but can't at the moment. I believe this is also
> true between California and Nevada.
John David Galt replied:
> I've found only one case: a "Verdi, CA" exchange in 530 is served by
> a switch in Verdi, NV. There is no town of Verdi in CA; the nearest
> town in CA is Farad (exit 201 on I-80). Most of the terrain in
> between is inaccessible mountains (that stretch of I-80 runs along
> the narrow Truckee River canyon), so whoever is on the "Verdi, CA"
> exchange must be awfully hard to get to.
While the Verdi CA side is served with dial-tone from the Verdi NV
side, each side has its own unique state/area code based NPA-NXX code:
VERDNV11RS2 is the switch, a REMOTE at that, owned by at&t/SBC/
Nevada*Bell, located in Verdi NV in the Reno NV (northern Nevada)
LATA.
775-345 Verdi NV
530-479 Verdi CA
Danny Burstein replied:
> We've had two in the larger NYC area.
>
> First is Fisher's Island, in Long Island Sound. Legally it's part of
> Suffolk County, an eastern NYC suburb.
>
> Per the Wiki write-up, though, it's "2 miles (3 km) off the
> southeastern coast of Connecticut across Fishers Island Sound. It
> is approx. 11 miles (18 km) from the tip of Long Island (NY)..."
So far, true.
> The physical phone lines are run from Ct. central offices.
NOT true. Someone is fooling someone and using Wikipedia to do it.
Fishers' Island NY is its own telephone company, with its own
c.o.switch, and is also its own LATA due to the demands of the NY
State PSC back in the early/mid-1980s. The original plans drafted by
pre-divestiture AT&T was to have Fishers' Island NY to be a part of
the (semi-BOC) SNET Connecticut LATA, since Fishers' Island "homed" on
the AT&T-LL/SNET tandem in New London CT. However, the NY State PSC
objected to having any NY State-based customers, rate-centers,
c.o.switches, etc. associated with any outside state's LATAs. I don't
know offhand if there are any NY State customers getting dial-tone
from any PA or NJ or CT or MA or VT (or Quebec or Ontario) central
offices, but IF any do, they would be associated with a NY State-based
LATA. However, there are several NY State-based LATAs which serve
adjacent-state customers which have their own state/NPA-based
c.o.codes, although they could get their dial-tone from their own
switch as well as from the NY side. Of course, with CLECs and wireless
these days, the ILEC trunking and such does not necessarily have to be
the same as the competitors' network configurations.
Fishers' Island NY, FSISNYXF788, is based on Fishers' island, owned by
the Fishers' Island Telephone Company (OCN 0095), and its own LATA
#921. The NPA-NXX is 631-788, the 631 area code being for Suffolk
County since the 516/631 NPA split of 1999/2000, 516 being retained by
Nassau County. Prior to that split, Fishers' Island was 516-788.
Fishers' Island NY is still "homed" on Connecticut, homing on an
AT&T-LL 4ESS in New Haven CT for quite some time post-divestiture, the
trunks still passing through New London CT. All competitive carriers
which trunk to Fishers' Island do need to pass through AT&T- LL, even
before SBC/SNET bought AT&T to become at&t. However, wireless provider
cell towers on the CT side might serve Fishers' Island NY customers,
and there might be some CLECs/etc. who now have their own microwave
links to Fishers' Island NY. But the incumbent landline service does
have their own c.o.switch on the Island, NOT served out of CT, even
though they do "home" on CT for toll.
> The other is the community of Marble Hill in Northern Manhattan. The
> physical phone cables run through a Bronx central office, and during
> the breakup of the (212) area code, these folk, despite being in
> Manhattan, were assigned into the new (718) one.
>
> (With the more modern carrier trunks and switches that don't care
> about distance, I wouldn't make any bets on the current arrangement).
Marble Hill is still jurisdictionally a part of Manhattan. Until about
100 years ago (or so), they were geographically a "bump" on the
northernmost tip of (northwestern) Manhattan, the Harlem River's
course swinging around this Marble Hill tip of Manhattan. But a new
channel was dredged just to the south of the Marble Hill area, so that
the Harlem River would be aligned with the course just to the west and
east of Marble Hill, cutting off Marble Hill from the rest of
Manhattan geographically (but not jurisdictionally). The original
channel segment to the north of Marble Hill seems to have been filled
up, thus making Marble Hill geographically a part of the Bronx, though
it was never changed to being jurisdictionally a part of the
Bronx. However, I understand that many borough/county-based services
(NY City is a single municipal jurisdiction spread over five
individual counties/boroughs) for Marble Hill are handled out of the
Bronx, even though Marble Hill is still a jurisdictional part of
Manhattan Borough/New York County.
Thus, it was easier to provide dial-tone from a Bronx-based
c.o.switch, and the c.o.codes remained with Bronx (718) when Bronx
migrated from 212 to 718 back in 1992/93 (the rest of 718 for
Brooklyn/Queens/Staten Isl. split form 212 back in 1984). Offhand, I
don't know if the 718-NXX c.o.codes that serve Marble Hill also serve
other Bronx points though.
But note that so far, nobody has shown an actual example of an NPA-NXX
code that crossed a state line, at least not in the modern "DDD" era,
other than the "aliased" situation where one could use either sides'
uniquely defined NPA-NXX codes to reach each side, although telco
officially defined the NPA-NXX for each jurisdictional side. Of
course, this worked in the SXS days, but not in the ESS/Digital days.
"Officially", area codes are NOT to cover more than one state. Canada
on the other hand, has had examples of area codes covering all or part
of adjacent provinces or territories. And 809 used to cover numerous
countries/territories/etc. in the +1 NANP-Caribbean area, until they
all split into their own unique area codes during the 1995-99 period.
St. Kitts and Nevis is a single jurisdictional entity, with +1-869,
but there had been talk about ten years ago that they were considering
splitting into their own island countries. I wonder if Nevis would
have wanted to split off from +1-869 into a different +1 area code?
Sint Maarten in the (soon to be politically dissolved) Netherlands
Antilles is at some future (postponed) date to join the NANP as
+1-721, splitting off from the Netherlands Antilles +599 country
code. Other soon-to-be "ex" Netherlands Antilles (yet still associated
with Holland to some degree) islands might also consider joining the
NANP. It is still unclear if they will be requested to also be
associated with +1-721, or if they would be assigned their own +1-NPA
codes.
In the case of Nevis and in the (soon to be dissolved Netherlands
Antilles), there are unique NXX c.o.codes, so if there was still NPA
code sharing, things would still be defined by the NXX code. If there
were a change in any area codes, it would also be "smooth" as far as
the c.o.codes, as well. The same also "mostly" applies to Canada where
there are area codes that cross province/territorial boundaries, as
far as c.o.codes being "uniquely" associated with a rate-center in a
particular province or territory.
But there are obviously going to be "undocumented" cases of an NPA-NXX
in a rural area near a state line which crosses over into the adjacent
state! And I'm not referring to special "FX" (Foreign Exchange)
service.
Some of these have been documented:
Sandy Valley NV in Clark County, SDVYNV11RS2, 702-723, also used to
cover the handful of customers on the California side, also known as
Sandy Valley (CA). I forget the actual political aspects that took
place about ten years ago, with the California PUC, but SBC/
Nevada*Bell had to eventually register the CA-side as a unique
rate-center of Sandy Valley CA with the CA-PUC, and have a CA-based
c.o.code assigned, 760-657, thus renumbering these CA-side
customers. They still have the same local (EAS) calling areas.
Hyder AK USA not only gets its dial-tone from Stewart BC Canada, but
it still is numbered as part of the Canada-side, 250-636. Not only the
BC 250 area code, but also the 636 c.o.code for Stewart BC (Canada)
also serves customers in Hyder AK (USA). Prior to 2006, all of BC was
area code 604 though, so back then the code was 604-636.
Prior to 2000, GTE-of-Alaska was the "official" ILEC for the Hyder AK
USA side, but since GTE owned BC-Tel, or by now the BC-side of Telus
was still owned in part by GTE. But in 2000, either GTE or VeriZon
chose to exit Alaska, selling off their service areas in the state
(about twelve or thirteen total) to about six different local "home
grown" Alaskan independent telcos. This also included the Hyder AK USA
side. Since then, (OCN 3017) "Alaska Telephone Company" is the
official service provider for the Alaska/USA (Hyder) side customers,
billed in US$. However, all they are really doing is re-selling
dial-tone from the Telus Stewart BC Canada side switch, STWTBC01DS1. I
don't know if the Stewart BC Canada vs. Hyder AK USA side customers
are differentiated by thousands or hundreds blocks in the line-numbers
though.
While there might be some special considerations regarding to 907
Alaska customers calling 250-636 customers, and vice-versa, for the
most part, a call to/from ALL of 250-636, including the Hyder AK USA
side with the "rest of the world" is considered a call to/from Stewart
BC Canada, and billed as such.
Finally, as to "dial-tone" that crosses political boundaries,
including state, province, territory, and even country/national
boundaries within the NANP, this has been rather common for
decades. However, NUMBERING and CODE resources crossing that level of
political boundary, while not unknown, as been rare. But Codes (NXX
and even area codes) crossing county/parish/township/municipal/etc.
boundaries is VERY common. And with VoIP and wireless, numbering and
geography/jurisdictions are becoming very disassociated!
Mark J. Cuccia
markjcuccia at yahoo dot com
Lafayette LA, formerly of New Orleans LA pre-Katrina
jsw
>cover the handful of customers on the California side,
Hmmmm ... This reminds me of a situation in the same general
area.
The community known as Primm, NV, is right on the state line
between Nevada and California. The Nevada side has three
casinos and a shopping mall.
IIRC, Primm is served from the Jean, NV CO, a few miles up
the highway.
There is, however, a small bodega or convenience store just
a few feet across the California line, whose main business
is selling California Lottery tickets. I'm sure this place
has wireline phone service. IIRC it's only reachable, road
wise, from Nevada and there's no civilization of anything
meaningful on the California side for miles, except for
ranches and such.
I'm curious if they have a Nevada phone number, or if some
kind of arrangements have been made for a California number.
Next time I'm in the area I'll stop in and see if I can
find out.
Steven
few miles up the road in California, there are also a few businesses
located off the highway you can't see from 15. I seem to remember
seeing some a remote hut near the Caltrans service site, it could be a
telephone remote or an old AT&T site, but it is clearly telecom.
--
The only good spammer is a dead one!! Have you hunted one down today?
(c) 2010 I Kill Spammers, Inc. A Rot in Hell Co.
Fred Goldstein
> >Sandy Valley NV in Clark County, SDVYNV11RS2, 702-723, also used to
> >cover the handful of customers on the California side,
>
>Hmmmm ... This reminds me of a situation in the same general
>area.
>
>The community known as Primm, NV, is right on the state line
>between Nevada and California. The Nevada side has three
>casinos and a shopping mall.
>
>IIRC, Primm is served from the Jean, NV CO, a few miles up
>the highway.
>
>There is, however, a small bodega or convenience store just
>a few feet across the California line, whose main business
>is selling California Lottery tickets. I'm sure this place
>has wireline phone service. IIRC it's only reachable, road
>wise, from Nevada and there's no civilization of anything
>meaningful on the California side for miles, except for
>ranches and such.
>
>I'm curious if they have a Nevada phone number, or if some
>kind of arrangements have been made for a California number.
>
>Next time I'm in the area I'll stop in and see if I can
>find out.
From Yelp:
Primm Valley Lotto Store
31900 S Las Vegas Blvd
Primm, NV 89019
(702) 679-5402
So it's a Nevada number and postal address. Per the Google map,
Lotto Store Road is entirely in Nevada, with the state line along one
side. The store is on the California side.
I suggest, however, that the store's Nevada telephone number is not
an example of a rate center crossing state lines. The Califunny side
of the line is pretty remote and is probably not part of any ILEC's
certificated territory. The Mountain Pass rate center is nearby but
it just touches Nevada at a point (I think Nipton) and this appears
to be outside of that area.
A customer has the right to deliver their own phone service wherever
they want it, even if it crosses state lines. The classic case on
point here happened when Jim 'n' Tammy Faye Bakker opened up their
theme park, Heritage USA, near Fort Mill, SC, with the property
straddling the state line. Most of the park was in SC but they
ordered phone service from BellSouth to be delivered to a hut on the
NC side. (This made it a local call to Charlotte.) They then used
an inside-the-park PBX to connect their buildings. The local ILEC in
SC objected, but lost, since the customer demarcation was within
BellSouth's NC territory.
The Carowinds amusement park, very close to the former Heritage USA
site, straddles the state line; it has a North Carolina street
address and telephone number. Some of the businesses now occupying
the Heritage USA site have SC phone numbers, but it appears that The
Broadcast Group, which produces a religious-themed TV show from an
office less than a mile into SC, has an NC phone number.
So the Primm Valley Lotto Store probably gets its phone service from
a demarc at the road side (in NV), and claims ownership of the wire
into the building. Hence no "Primm, CA" rate center is needed.
HOWEVER, the official California PUC rate center map does show a
couple of places where the "Nevada LATA" crosses into
California. One is Sandy Valley, which counts as a California rate
center in LATA 721. Dial tone there comes from the Sandy Valley
remote off of the Pahrump host, on the Las Vegas tandem. ATT
(PacBell/Nevada Bell) is the ILEC.
But another is Pahrump, a Nevada city along the state line. There is
no Pahrump, CA rate center. A handful of buildings are on the
California side of the line, nearby, and not near any other
California towns. (The nearest California rate centers are Sandy
Valley, Shoshone and Death Valley.) So it may well be that the
states have agreed to treat the California sites as if they were in
Nevada, for rating purposes at least. Or perhaps they get Sandy
Valley numbers, though that's not what the map shows. Since Sandy
Valley is served out of the Pahrump host, it would be no effort at
all to have Sandy Valley numbers there.
Howard Sanders
------------------------------
On Fri, 06 Aug 2010 22:49:04 -0400, Fred Goldstein wrote:
> A customer has the right to deliver their own phone service wherever
> they want it, even if it crosses state lines.
Then there is the exchange of "North Peninsular, Mi" which is served
Out of the Toledo, OH CO and Rate Center unless I am mistaken.
Steven
customers handled their service needs and problems under the old Bell
System. In the 60's RCA Defense Systems along with Warwick Electronics;
(RCA parts for Sears) located in Van Nuys, Calif. They wanted a special
system and Pacific Telephone would not install it, so they had the
telephone plant placed on the North end of the plant which was in
California Water & Telephone's service area, they did what RCA wanted
and for many years as the plant expanded CWT handled all of their
service needs and did a very good job of it.
Sam Spade
> On 8/8/10 10:03 AM, Howard Sanders wrote:
>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> On Fri, 06 Aug 2010 22:49:04 -0400, Fred Goldstein wrote:
>>
>>> A customer has the right to deliver their own phone service wherever
>>> they want it, even if it crosses state lines.
>>
>>
>> Then there is the exchange of "North Peninsular, Mi" which is served
>> Out of the Toledo, OH CO and Rate Center unless I am mistaken.
>>
> Though the following is not a direct reply, it has to do with how
> customers handled their service needs and problems under the old Bell
> System. In the 60's RCA Defense Systems along with Warwick Electronics;
> (RCA parts for Sears) located in Van Nuys, Calif. They wanted a special
> system and Pacific Telephone would not install it, so they had the
> telephone plant placed on the North end of the plant which was in
> California Water & Telephone's service area, they did what RCA wanted
> and for many years as the plant expanded CWT handled all of their
> service needs and did a very good job of it.
>
side of Pasadena, California. The main building was in GTE terriotry,
formerly CWT territory. GTE built a new C.O. close by hopping to get
Zerox to buy their SxS "centrex" system. This was mid-1970s when Pacific
Bell, that served most of Pasadena had cut over to 1ESS several office
codes, which served a smaller part of Zerox's facility on the west side
of the street across from the main building. Zerox subscribed to
Pacific Bell Centrex, which terminated in the little building. Zerox
then shipped it under the street in a cable vault used for lots of
company stuff. GTE took Zerox before the California PUC and lost.
Bruce Bergman
> >
> customers handled their service needs and problems under the old Bell
> System. In the 60's RCA Defense Systems along with Warwick Electronics;
> (RCA parts for Sears) located in Van Nuys, Calif. They wanted a special
> system and Pacific Telephone would not install it, so they had the
> telephone plant placed on the North end of the plant which was in
> California Water & Telephone's service area, they did what RCA wanted
> and for many years as the plant expanded CWT handled all of their
> service needs and did a very good job of it.
>
And there is also Around The Clock Answering Service strategically located
in a small office building (South side of Roscoe, East side of Sepulveda)
that was built straddling the border between CWT/GTE/Verizon Sepulveda CO
and PacBell/at&t Van Nuys Cedros CO.
The GTE Demarc was on the North side of the building, and the PacBell Demarc
on the south, and their switchboards right in the middle - that way they
didn't have to get the OPX's for the customer lines done as an expensive
foreign exchange from either side, and complicated by crossing between
companies.
Nowadays, it's a moot point - just use Call Forwarding. In the forties,
however, you had to do it the hard way - and I don't think either side
wanted the hassles involved...
--<< Bruce >>--
jsw
>system and Pacific Telephone would not install it,
(Admittedly wandering a bit off topic, but ...)
In the early 1960s, when I was first becoming fascinated
with 'fone stuph' <bfg>, my aunt worked for a business in
Pico Rivera, just outside of El-Lay proper.
IIRC, their office and warehouse was RIGHT on the border.
At the time they had a mixture of RAymond lines, local to
LA and I assume Pac Bell, and OXford lines, local to Pico
Rivera, and GTE I assume. I was vaguely aware of the
situation in the area, with gerrymandered service areas
of Ma Bell and GTE and the Indies.
What fascinated me was that they had a key system in the
office with buttons for both the RAymond and OXford lines.
I can't recall, maybe didn't even pay that much attention
at the time, if the key system was WECO or AE, but there
was either some degree of cooperation between the two
telcos, or else some kind of a 'cowboy' arrangement in
order to get both sets of lines on one key system.
Fred Goldstein
>On Fri, 06 Aug 2010 22:49:04 -0400, Fred Goldstein wrote:
>
> > A customer has the right to deliver their own phone service wherever
> > they want it, even if it crosses state lines.
>
>Then there is the exchange of "North Peninsular, Mi" which is served
>Out of the Toledo, OH CO and Rate Center unless I am mistaken.
You may be thinking of the North Sylvania, MI exchange. It is a
separate rate center, assigned to Michigan, but ILEC-served out of
the Sylvania, OH wire center (now Frontier, was Verizon). This type
of "locality" is fairly common.
There's also Lost Peninsula, a bit of Michigan attached to land only
via Ohio. But it gets its telephone service from its own wire center,
a Frontier remote off of its Temperance, MI host. The nearby land
area in Michigan is the Erie rate center, also hosted off of Temperance.
Steven
>
>>
> On the other side of that coin Zerox had a major facility on the east
> side of Pasadena, California. The main building was in GTE terriotry,
> formerly CWT territory. GTE built a new C.O. close by hopping to get
> Zerox to buy their SxS "centrex" system. This was mid-1970s when Pacific
> Bell, that served most of Pasadena had cut over to 1ESS several office
> codes, which served a smaller part of Zerox's facility on the west side
> of the street across from the main building. Zerox subscribed to Pacific
> Bell Centrex, which terminated in the little building. Zerox then
> shipped it under the street in a cable vault used for lots of company
> stuff. GTE took Zerox before the California PUC and lost.
>
I remember that, I helped build the Hastings Ranch CO which was built
for Zerox Electrical Optical Systems, it was built to Zerox Specs and
paid for mostly by them. A few years after that Zerox close the rather
large office building and now it is a bunch of offices. That was a
really strange office and had a switch that I had never seen before,
isle after isle of Centrx switches. I spent almost a year on that
project. There were condos on the hill above the CO and one real nasty
old lady keep calling the police because as she put it, there was noise
24/7. GTE tried to settle with her, but in the end it went to court and
GTE took here down to her panties.
David Kaye
>While the Verdi CA side is served with dial-tone from the Verdi NV
>side, each side has its own unique state/area code based NPA-NXX code:
Gosh! How do you folks find out this stuff? I can't find anything like that.
Adam H. Kerman
>So far, true.
How bizarre. There are three LATAs that cross the Illinois-Wisconsin
state line due to how communities are wired up. Two are mostly Wisconsin
with a finger into Illinois. The third is just North Antioch, Wisconsin,
an unincorporated area wired to the switch in Antioch, Illinois.
The state used LATA boundaries but called the in-state LATAs and Illinois
portion of interstate LATAs "market service areas", assigned numbers unique
to Illinois because we didn't want to use the national numbering scheme,
and regulated away. Two separate numbering schemes is pointless but at
least the boundaries are the same.
For regulatory purposes, the New York public service commission had exactly
the same authority regardless of a LATA's interstate nature.
Sam Spade
I didn't know they had bought most of that gear. Perhaps they used it
until the advent of Pasadena Pacific Bell ESS Centrex. I recall that
Pac Bell was fairly conservative in deploying the 1ESS until they had
Centrex working quite well.
BTW, two friend of mine (brothers) built several of those GTE CO
building including Hastings as I recall. I know they built the
replacement building after the Sylmar earthquake.
Sam Spade
Foreign Exchange service was always available. In California a business
could pull dial tone from a contiguous or non-contiguous exchange. A
residential customer was limited to a contiguous exchange. In the 1970s
I lived in GTE's Azusa-Glendora exchange and had residential dial tone
from Pacific Bell's El Monte exchange. (It got me on an early 1ESS
instead of GTE's problem-laden (at least for toll) SxS with its balky
toll mangement device called, I believe, the Call Director.
Steven
> Steven wrote:
>> On 8/9/10 3:30 PM, Sam Spade wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>> On the other side of that coin Zerox had a major facility on the east
>>> side of Pasadena, California. The main building was in GTE terriotry,
>>> formerly CWT territory. GTE built a new C.O. close by hopping to get
>>> Zerox to buy their SxS "centrex" system. This was mid-1970s when Pacific
>>> Bell, that served most of Pasadena had cut over to 1ESS several office
>>> codes, which served a smaller part of Zerox's facility on the west side
>>> of the street across from the main building. Zerox subscribed to Pacific
>
> I didn't know they had bought most of that gear. Perhaps they used it
> until the advent of Pasadena Pacific Bell ESS Centrex. I recall that Pac
> Bell was fairly conservative in deploying the 1ESS until they had
> Centrex working quite well.
>
> BTW, two friend of mine (brothers) built several of those GTE CO
> building including Hastings as I recall. I know they built the
> replacement building after the Sylmar earthquake.
>
What buildings did they build. The Sylmar CO was intact and they just
put some really large poles in the ground. I started with CWT in 1967
as the merger was completed. I was on the force that rebuilt the CO.
We used the Pacoima CO to wire the equipment and placed them on
transporters and sent to Sylmar. I have a VHS of it that I moved to DVD
a few years ago, it shows how it was done and an over view of the
damage, it was done by GTE, looking at the DVD and seeing me at age 22
years. I was leading a bunch of temps so I was seen in a lot of the tape.
Al Gillis
news:20100809224040.5403930722@mailout.easydns.com...
Snip, snip, snip...
>
> There's also Lost Peninsula, a bit of Michigan attached to land only via
> Ohio. But it gets its telephone service from its own wire center, a
> Frontier remote off of its Temperance, MI host. The nearby land area in
> Michigan is the Erie rate center, also hosted off of Temperance.
So Fred - Using Google maps to look at Lost Peninsula I noticed a lot of
"blurred out" territory there. Any idea what's so important to make Google
blur it? Some major concentration of communications equipment? A major DOD
installation? Or just a bunch of rich guys yachts they don't want us
looking at?
***** Moderator's Note *****
It's the home of the Last Testman: a place sacred to all who labored
at the shrine of the great Wheatstone.
Bill Horne
Moderator
Sam Spade
It's been a long time. They built a few, perhaps including the Hastings
C.O.
Gary
news:4c6609f5$0$86441$39ce...@news.twtelecom.net...
> So Fred - Using Google maps to look at Lost Peninsula I noticed a
> lot of "blurred out" territory there. Any idea what's so important
> to make Google blur it? Some major concentration of communications
> equipment? A major DOD installation? Or just a bunch of rich guys
> yachts they don't want us looking at?
Look at it through another mapping site. Using "bing," it isn't blurred
out. It's a bunch of boat slips.
However, judging by the shape of the "harbor," it appears to be man made and
may have served larger ships or even subs at some point. Maybe that's why
Google blurred it. But that's just my wild guess.
-Gary
Fred Goldstein
>...
>So Fred - Using Google maps to look at Lost Peninsula I noticed a lot of
>"blurred out" territory there. Any idea what's so important to make Google
>blur it? Some major concentration of communications equipment? A major DOD
>installation? Or just a bunch of rich guys yachts they don't want us
>looking at?
>
>
>***** Moderator's Note *****
>
>It's the home of the Last Testman: a place sacred to all who labored
>at the shrine of the great Wheatstone.
I don't know why Google blurred it; I wondered too. But I looked on
Bing and it was in focus. It looks like some kind of parking lot for
small boats, a big marina or something.
Lisa or Jeff
interesting. It's amazing the basic issues that we take for granted
today all had to be carefully worked out.
The July 1963 issue of the Bell Labs Technical Journal contains
multiple articles on the pioneer satellite. They explain the
background of the satellite and ground systems used and the results to
date of publication. Things such as power, bandwidth, antenna gain,
radio path loss, stability, beam focus, Van Allen belts, and orbit
parameters are covered in technical detial.
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol42-1963/bstj-vol42-issue04.html
J.
Lisa or Jeff
digest.org> wrote:
> Knowing of your interest in radio, you might find the following
> interesting. It's amazing the basic issues that we take for granted
> today all had to be carefully worked out.
Going back earlier, two articles on overseas shortwave radio:
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol09-1930/articles/bstj9-2-258.pdf
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol09-1930/articles/bstj9-2-270.pdf
Ship to shore radiotelephone:
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol09-1930/articles/bstj9-3-407.pdf
lilc...@gmail.com
> > As to NPA/NXX spanning, there are rural areas where it's easier to service one
> > state from another. I seem to remember a small area of northern California
> > serviced from Oregon. I'm trying to find the actual communities but can't at
> > the moment. I believe this is also true between California and Nevada.
>
> Verdi, NV. There is no town of Verdi in CA; the nearest town in CA is Farad
> (exit 201 on I-80). Most of the terrain in between is inaccessible mountains
> (that stretch of I-80 runs along the narrow Truckee River canyon), so whoever is
> on the "Verdi, CA" exchange must be awfully hard to get to.
[moderator pro tem's note: In general a rate center does not cross a state line. But if an area is served by a switch across the state line, it's called a locality, and gets its own NPA-NXX codes. The Vermont-New Hampshire border is full of localities crossing the river. But when Verizon sold the states to FairPoint, the locality arrangements with Massachusetts, in both directions, had to be rewired to stay within each carrier's network. -fg]
David Lesher
>Yep, Del Norte County, California, in the northeast corner of
>it, is served by 541-596 (O'Brien, OR)
>[moderator pro tem's note: In general a rate center does not
>cross a state line. But if an area is served by a switch
>across the state line, it's called a locality, and gets its
>own NPA-NXX codes. The Vermont-New Hampshire border is full
>of localities crossing the river. But when Verizon sold
>the states to FairPoint, the locality arrangements with
>Massachusetts, in both directions, had to be rewired to stay
>within each carrier's network. -fg]
cases where a CO in the one state served subscribers in the
other. This was made easier with the evolution of small remotes
eliminating the need for a new CO building.
Another one I recall was on the WY-CO border, but the name
escapes me.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Neal McLain
A few months ago Clint Gilliland, of Menlo Park, CA, posted the
following message on the TCI listserv:
> [West] Wendover, Nevada and Wendover, UT were adjacent cities
> sharing the same SxS CO (in 1971). The Utah numbers were
> 801-665-2NNN and the Nevada numbers were 702-668-2NNN. The 665 and
> 668 homed on the same final switch train. It looks like it would
> be possible to make out of state rate calls from Utah to a
> Wendover, UT 665-2NNN number just by dialing 702-668-2NNN. And
> vice-versa. This would save money when in-state rates were always
> higher than out of state calls.
>
> I scanned the WHOLE Mountain Bell Wendover directory - a whole
> four pages. The full range of numbers was -22NN, -23NN, -28NN and
> -98NN. I believe the -98NN numbers could also be reached by -28NN.
>
> These must have been coin phones as the two gas stations
> listed -98NN numbers.
Gilliland did indeed scan the entire directory -- all four pages.
A PDF is posted here:
http://www.annsgarden.com/telecom/Directory-1971.pdf
I note that there were no long distance dialing instructions for
Nevada subscribers. I wonder if the procedure for calls within
Utah also worked for calls from Nevada -- for example, a call from
West Wendover Nevada to Ogden Utah?. And how did Nevada customers
make calls within Nevada?
As Gilliland noted, there are 665-98xx and 668-98xx numbers --
probably coin phones. On further investigation I note:
- On the Utah side, these numbers are all gas stations.
- On the Nevada side, another type of business is evident: Jim's
Casino and the Hide Away Club.
Gracious! Gambling and drinking in Nevada but not Utah!
Well, some things never change.
Neal McLain
Andrew Kaser
I do not think regulators ever really worried about it. The volume through these rate centers was so small, that the cost of "fixing" the situation would far outweigh the loss revenues.
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 19:16:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Neal McLain <nmclain.r...@and-this-too.annsgarden.com>
To: telecomdigestmode...@and-this-too.telecom-digest.org.
Subject: Re: Do rate centers cross state lines?
Message-ID: <895ceaa2-f6ff-447b...@googlegroups.com>