Octothorpe = Pound Sign: What Do You Call It?
TELECOM Digest Editor
on telephones came to be named whatever it is called. Some say
'hash mark', others say 'pound key', while still others including
myself call it 'octothorpe'.
Nearly seven years ago in TELECOM Digest the question was raised in an
article by Julian Macassey entitled 'Octothrope Source' and dated
November 19, 1988. Off and on for the rest of that month, replies
were collected and an issue of the Digest was devoted to the topic.
Here is what got it started:
To: tel...@bu-cs.bu.edu
Subject: Octothorpe source
Date: 19 Nov 88 15:25:08 PST (Sat)
From: ucla-an!bongo!jul...@ee.UCLA.EDU (julian macassey)
I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
OCTOTHORPE.
An octothorpe is an # , which is what is usually referred to
as "the pound sign" or "the hash mark", sometimes as "the number
symbol". I know the correct term is octothorpe, I have seen
references to it in some Bell docs, I have even seen a news
clipping years ago that mentioned it.
My problem is that every now and again, some smart Alec asks
me where it comes from. I have even been accused of making it
up. No dictionary I have seen has ever given me a definition.
Yes I have looked it up in the 24 Volume Oxford English
Dictionary. I have checked the encyc Brit and alleged
Telecommunications Dictionaries.
I do know that Octo means eight and Thorpe means beam. So the
word has some roots.
There is a good term paper here for someone.
Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
To: comp-dco...@ncar.ucar.edu
From: a...@ibiza.Miami.Edu (a.e.mossberg)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 21 Nov 88 14:52:27 GMT
In <telecom-v...@vector.UUCP>, <ucla-an!bongo!jul...@ee.UCLA.EDU>
wrote:
> An octothorpe is an # , which is what is usually referred to
>as "the pound sign" or "the hash mark", sometimes as "the number
>symbol". I know the correct term is octothorpe, I have seen
>references to it in some Bell docs, I have even seen a news
>clipping years ago that mentioned it.
Indeed, that's the same place I learned the term, but usually have to revert
to 'number sign' or 'pound sign'.
> My problem is that every now and again, some smart Alec asks
>me where it comes from. I have even been accused of making it
>up. No dictionary I have seen has ever given me a definition.
Yep, same here. I've never been able to find it in a dictionary, nor have
I been able to find the original reference from where I learned it. I was
beginning to think I made it up in some frenzied nightmare. Perhaps Bell
invented it, and then changed their collective mind.
aem
a.e.mossberg - a...@mthvax.miami.edu - a...@mthvax.span (3.91)
Man is here for the sake of other men. - Albert Einstein
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 88 09:19:28 PST
From: HECTOR MYERSTON <MYER...@KL.SRI.COM>
Subject: Octothorpe source
To: tel...@bu-cs.bu.edu
All my Bell System references call # The Number Sign (or Pound).
The only times I see it called an Octothrope is in Northern Telecom Inc
publications talking about Digipulse Dialing, "their name" for DTMF.
The Japanese routinely call it a "Sharp". Obscure to me, logical
to the musically inclined.
+HECTOR+
-------
To: tel...@bu-cs.bu.edu
From: westmark!da...@rutgers.edu (Dave Levenson)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 24 Nov 88 00:52:41 GMT
In article <telecom-v...@vector.UUCP>,(julian macassey) writes:
>
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
> OCTOTHORPE.
...
> I do know that Octo means eight and Thorpe means beam. So the
> word has some roots.
# #
# #
#######
# #
#######
# #
# #
Can't you see the eight beams here?
Dave Levenson
Westmark, Inc. The Man in the Mooney
Warren, NJ USA
{rutgers | att}!westmark!dave
------------------------------
TELECOM Digest Tue, 29 Nov 88 0:23:56 EST Volume 8 : Issue 187
Today's Topics:
Octothorpe
re: Octothorpe source
Re: Octothorpe source
From: 8...@cup.portal.com
To: telecom...@xx.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Octothorpe
Date: Sat, 26-Nov-88 09:52:20 PST
But...a # doesn't have eight beams...only 4...two really if you define
beam as being horizontal...just call it a pound sign...
which, I suppose, refers to some typewriter which have the British pound
sign over the 3...I just call it the number sign...I've also heard
it referred to as a ticktacktoe...
From: minow%thund...@decwrl.dec.com (Repent! Godot is coming soon!)
Date: 28 Nov 88 14:17
To: tel...@bu-cs.bu.edu, MINOW%thund...@decwrl.dec.com
Subject: re: Octothorpe source
According to legend, "octothorpe" is a name that the Bell people made
up for the # on the telephone keypad. I suspect that they couldn't
agree as to whether it was a "pound sign", "sharp", or "number sign"
and eventually compromised (making everyone equally miserable).
Martin Minow
minow%thund...@decwrl.dec.com
[Moderator's question: I am wondering if our correspondent is related to
Newton Minow, well known FCC executive. Just curious. P. Townson]
------------------------------
To: tel...@bu-cs.bu.edu
From: Henry Troup <bnr-fos!bnr-public!hwt>
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 22 Nov 88 15:57:48 GMT
In article <telecom-v...@vector.UUCP> ucla-an!bongo!jul...@ee.UCLA.
EDU (julian macassey) writes:
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
>OCTOTHORPE.
>Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
I believe AT&T named the little beastie. Anyone at AT&T wanted to
claim responsibility?
Henry Troup utgpu!bnr-vpa!bnr-fos!hwt%bnr-public | BNR is not
Bell-Northern Reseach hwt@bnr (BITNET/NETNORTH) | responsible for
Ottawa, Canada (613) 765-2337 (Voice) | my opinions
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 88 21:05:28 EST
From: The Moderator <Telecom...@bu-cs.BU.EDU>
Reply-To: TEL...@bu-cs.BU.EDU
Subject: TELECOM Digest V8 #190
To: TEL...@bu-cs.bu.edu
TELECOM Digest Thu, 1 Dec 88 21:05:28 EST Volume 8 : Issue 190
Today's Topics:
All You Ever Wanted To Know About Octothorpes
[Moderator's Note: This is a just-for-fun special issue of the Digest
with a random sampling of the mail received pertaining to your favorite
touch-pad key and mine, the lowly octothorpe, or #. As is our custom,
we have even provided a rebuttal message from someone who says the #
is not known as an octothorpe at all....
Now can we get this out of our systems once and for all please? Let's
call it quits on the subject of #, by whatever name. P. Townson]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lar...@nvuxr.UUCP (L Lang)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 22 Nov 88 15:36:53 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research
Lines: 24
When I count "thorpes" (the beams or lines),
I only see four, two vertical and two horizontal.
Perhaps it should be called the QUADROTHORPE.
And does that make the * a TRITHORPE?
Cheers,
Larry Lang
To: comp-dco...@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU
From: desn...@Apple.COM (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 30 Nov 88 23:20:40 GMT
Just to provide another point of view:
From CCITT recommendation E.161 (Arrangement of Figures, Letters and
Symbols of Telephones and other Devices that can be used for Gaining
Access to a Telephone Network) as revised for the Blue Book:
3.2.2 Symbols
...
[drawings, with angle between horiz. and vert. strokes, length of
strokes, and length of protruding nubbies labelled alpha, b, and a
respectively]
in Europe alpha = 90 degrees with a/b = 0.08 (looks funny to a N.A.ican)
in North America alpha = 80 deg. with a/b = 0.18
...
The symbol will be known as the square or the most commonly used
equivalent term in other languages.*
*... alternate term (e.g. "number sign") may be necessary...
I suppose it's useful to have a translatable term. That approach
worked for "star", but it seems to have failed here. Does anyone refer
to '#' as a "square"? Anywhere? Enquiring minds want to know...
Peter Desnoyers
To: tel...@bu-cs.bu.edurom: er...@Morgan.COM (Erik T. Mueller)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 1 Dec 88 19:28:06 GMT
The term "octothorpe" appears in issues of the journal -Telesis- from
the mid to late 1970's published by Bell Northern Research. (Sorry,
I don't have the actual issue numbers handy right now...) I don't know
its origin, but vaguely recall reading somewhere that it was a
Canadian telephony term. As far as I know, the term is/was never used
by AT&T.
-Erik
To: comp-dco...@decwrl.dec.com
From: avsd!childers (Richard Childers)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 25 Nov 88 21:25:03 GMT
In article <telecom-v...@vector.UUCP> ucla-an!bongo!jul...@ee.UCLA.
EDU (julian macassey) writes:
> I am looking for an authoritative reference for the term
>OCTOTHORPE. ... ( An octothorpe is an # ... )
Well, this isn't authoritative, it's intuitive, but I _think_ it refers
to the symbol as used on a complex organ's key, for a particular mode.
>Julian Macassey, n6are julian@bongo voice (213) 653-4495
-- richard
--
* Any excuse will serve a tyrant. -- Aesop *
* *
* ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho *
* AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D *
To: comp-dcom-telecom
From: see...@beach.cis.ufl.edu (F. L. Charles Seeger III)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe source
Date: 1 Dec 88 15:42:09 GMT
In article <telecom-v...@vector.UUCP> MYER...@KL.SRI.COM (HECTOR
MYERSTON) writes:
| All my Bell System references call # The Number Sign (or Pound).
|The only times I see it called an Octothrope is in Northern Telecom Inc
|publications talking about Digipulse Dialing, "their name" for DTMF.
| The Japanese routinely call it a "Sharp". Obscure to me, logical
|to the musically inclined.
I usually refer to as "sharp", but may change to octothorpe -- I sometimes
like to tilt at windmills. What are the names of the other ASCII special
symbols? For instance, "&" is an ampersand and "*" an asterisk. Are
there any fancy (preferrably single word) names for the others? I.e names
not of the form "* [sign|mark|symbol]". Does anyone have a reference on
these things, probably a typography reference?
The terms that I use, about which I'm fairly confident:
~ tilde
() [left|right|open|close] parenthesis
[] [left|right|open|close] bracket
{} [left|right|open|close] brace
<> [left|right|open|close] carat
^ circumflex
_ underscore
. period
, comma
; semi-colon
: colon
What about the following: ? ! @ $ % / \ | + = - ` ' "
If I get responses by Email, I'll summarize in a couple of weeks.
Also, feel free to suggest a more appropriate newsgroup.
Charles Seeger 216 Larsen Hall
Electrical Engineering University of Florida
see...@iec.ufl.edu Gainesville, FL 32611
[Moderator's inane comment: PUH-LEASE! write direct to Charlie on this; not
to me. I do not give an iota what those things are called! And now, here is
that rebuttal message...]
To: comp-dco...@rutgers.edu
From: r...@ron.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie)
Subject: Re: Octothorpe
Date: 1 Dec 88 22:15:50 GMT
Nope, # is called pound because it is used as a symbol for pounds
(weight). I really expect the brits would put the Pound Sterling
where the $ is on a typewriter keyboards.
-Ron
[And there you have it. All the questions you were embarrassed to ask your
Mother Company all nicely summarized for you by the Octothorpe Digest people
in simple, easy to read format you would not be reluctant to share with your
own children when they are old enough to ask the name of that 'funny looking
key below the nine.'
In issue 191, distributed early Friday morning, news of the increase in
network access fees which took effect 12-1-88, and the corresponding
decrease in rates by AT&T, Sprint, and MCI.]
------------------------------
End of TELECOM Digest
*********************
-------------------------------------------
(New notes as of September 8, 1995)
Now, if this does not come up again for another seven years, that will
be fine with me. Who knows, I may be retired by that time anyway and
someone else will get to deal with it.
It would appear, that contrary to what MSB claimed about it all being
'anecdotal', there is some basis for the Octothrope name as per the
Northern Telecom references cited; yet the Bell System called it the
'pound sign'.
Whatever ... have a nice weekend.
PAT