CCIE Worth it?
Jeffrey Buddemeier
Hi Joel and this anonymous poster,
I would like to offer a different opinion than this anonymous poster.
We are constantly striving to keep the test current. I would be interested
to know where and when this poster took the CCIE exam since the combination
of networking protocols does NOT match any CCIE exam that Cisco gives.
I can't tell you what is on the lab test, but it is not what this poster
says and is way more current.
With that said, I'll agree that CCIE is not equivalent to "write your own
ticket". Nothing in life is. period. It does show that you can pass a
challenging, time-pressured, exam on a wide variety of networking protocols.
It's not easy and people in the networking community recognize it as a good
measure of one's capabilities. It does not prove that you know everything
about networking. It will show that you know a lot though. One cannot come
into the exam with little or no knowledge and pass. BTW, I strongly recommend
formal education too.
Lastly, I would like to refute the fact that this is a big money making venture.
In fact, it's tough to make money. Take into account the amount of equipment,
personnel, and time to run the exam. More importantly, look at the bandwidth
of the lab. Since it's a 2 day lab test we can only get a handful of people
through the lab each week. We physically cannot get enough people through the
lab for it to be a great revenue generator.
Later,
Jeff Buddemeier
CCIE Engineer
> Hi Joel,
> This may sound biased since I screwed-up my first attempt at the CCIE
> exam, but I hope this might at least help.
>
> I am both a certified Novell and a certified Solaris administrator,
> and now 2 years later, I really don't see a "Write your own ticket
> scenario", It reallys sucks all the money I laid out,all the studying I
> did, and now I think for what. I've been working on networks for 15 years
> and I've worked on over 1000 networks, and I really thought the CCIE would
> be more networking than what I got.
> The networking part of it I did find, however I got hit with a bunch
> of X.25 questions, now I know X.25 is out there, but I studied for
> ISDN, Frame, ATM, How many X.25 networks are out there, then I got hit with a
> bunch of Apollo,Decnet Phase V, CLNP questions, yes, they are out there,
> what was so funny was that there was 1 TCP question, ONE.. Then the
> classes I took , all the commands were in the form of "startup-config
> running-config", but on the test it was all like "config flash", Is that
> suppose to be cisco Version 9, I don't know, I studied 11.X, well again
> What really bothers me the most, the questions were just like that of
> Novell, it is a pure money maker for Cisco, the guys who have studied and
> past there CCIE, I give them credit, it took a lot of hard work, but now
> it seems like every company is certifying their products, and in 2 years
> the CCIE wouldn't be worth it, and certaintly not worth the $1000.00 lab,
> do a net search on certifications, you'll see what I mean. Do yuorself a
> favor, go for the formal education, A BS, MS or Ph.D
> will alays be in style, not a CNE,CSA or a CCIE
>
> good luck
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------
William Chops
The broad range of experience is more important than the CCIE, unless
you like working for dumb, but rich people. Personally, I prefer
working for smart (and rich is nice too) people.
The idea of a CCIE certification is that it is supposed to be evidence that
the holder DOES have that broad range of experience. Of course, (mere)
classes aimed specifically at passing the CCIE exams make something of a
mockery of this ideal. Then again, the same could be said for SAT-prep
classes or last-minute cramming for an exam...
Once "pass the exam" replaces the goal of "know the material", all is lost.
BillW
(In my personal opinion, of course.)
Bill Vance
>The idea of a CCIE certification is that it is supposed to be evidence that
>the holder DOES have that broad range of experience. Of course, (mere)
>classes aimed specifically at passing the CCIE exams make something of a
>mockery of this ideal. Then again, the same could be said for SAT-prep
>classes or last-minute cramming for an exam...
>
>Once "pass the exam" replaces the goal of "know the material", all is lost.
>
>BillW
>(In my personal opinion, of course.)
There are a number of CCIE's on this forum including myself and I am
beginning to wonder if it is worth it. The recertification notification
sent out recently about a May meeting in Nova Scotia is interesting but
disturbing. It states that this is part of the recertification process and
makes no mention as to what the entire process is. Why should we pay to go
to Nova Scotia and then have more to do. It is more expensive than just
going back to the lab?
**************************************************************************
* Bill M. Vance "The INS poltergeist" *
* 14160 Dallas Parkway Suite 200 *
* Dallas, TX 75240 *
* Network Systems Engineer *
* (800) INS-1-INS [(800) 467-1467] pager *
**************************************************************************
Imran Qureshi
The certification process will require attendance to one of these conferences
and a test. We'll be officially announcing the policy within a month.
Statistics show, very few people going through Boot Camps pass
CCIE, specially the LAB
Imran
Manager, CCIE Program
Mark Prior
>The idea of a CCIE certification is that it is supposed to be evidence that
>the holder DOES have that broad range of experience. Of course, (mere)
>classes aimed specifically at passing the CCIE exams make something of a
>mockery of this ideal. Then again, the same could be said for SAT-prep
>classes or last-minute cramming for an exam...
>
>Once "pass the exam" replaces the goal of "know the material", all is lost.
>
>BillW
>(In my personal opinion, of course.)
There are a number of CCIE's on this forum including myself and I am
beginning to wonder if it is worth it.
First off I'm not a CCIE and haven't investigated becoming one so I
don't have any idea if it's worth the effort or not but ... :-)
I'm quite happy knowing that I know the material I need to know to do
my job (and having a forum like this to ask question when RTFM isn't
enough :-) Maybe if there was an ISP CCIE I might be tempted as I
would know it would be (a) relevant to my job; and (b) hopefully
painless (ie major study of the material not required as I should know
it already :-)
Mark.
Sean Donelan
In article <8582398...@news.Colorado.EDU>, Jeffrey Buddemeier <jbud...@cisco.com> writes:
> With that said, I'll agree that CCIE is not equivalent to "write your own
> ticket". Nothing in life is. period. It does show that you can pass a
> challenging, time-pressured, exam on a wide variety of networking protocols.
, as implemented on cisco equipment. Some of the hairest problems have
little to do with the protocols, and a great deal knowing how a particular
vendor (and sometimes even a particular piece of hardware or software)
implements them. The perpetual confusion over the different switching
paths and caches in cisco routers is a good example.
> It's not easy and people in the networking community recognize it as a good
> measure of one's capabilities. It does not prove that you know everything
> about networking. It will show that you know a lot though. One cannot come
> into the exam with little or no knowledge and pass. BTW, I strongly recommend
> formal education too.
This I can agree with. Test makers are usually very careful about what a
test measures and does not measure. But sometimes the marketing hype
takes over, and everyone seems to forget about the limitations of any
test methodology. A low IQ test score does not always mean someone is
stupid. And remember idiot savants test very well in some areas. I assume
the CCIE test lab is ADA compliant.
A CCIE certificate, a high SAT score, or a college diploma are useful
information. But I wouldn't base my entire decision on just one of them.
--
Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
Affiliation given for identification not representation
Daniel J McDonald
Bill Vance wrote:
> There are a number of CCIE's on this forum including myself and I am
> beginning to wonder if it is worth it. The recertification notification
> sent out recently about a May meeting in Nova Scotia is interesting but
> disturbing. It states that this is part of the recertification process and
> makes no mention as to what the entire process is. Why should we pay to go
> to Nova Scotia and then have more to do. It is more expensive than just
> going back to the lab?
I took the lab in Nova Scotia just a few weeks ago (passed it, too).
The lab administrator said that the recertification process would be to
attend one of these seminars once every 2 years. That is, of course,
subject to change.
--
Daniel J. McDonald Intel Corporation
daniel_j...@ccm.ra.intel.com Hawthorn Farms Campus
1.503.696.4106 (voice) CCIE # pending...
Disclaimer: Not speaking for Intel Corporation
Brian C. Sawyers
On 16 Mar 1997 03:54:30 -0700, Imran Qureshi <qur...@cisco.com>
wrote:
>The certification process will require attendance to one of these conferences
>and a test. We'll be officially announcing the policy within a month.
>
>Statistics show, very few people going through Boot Camps pass
>CCIE, specially the LAB
Imran,
Having recently become a CCIE, I hope that recertification test will
not entail leaving town for an additional few days. If it is to be a
lab-type test, I would hope that it could be worked into the Halifax
two-day recertification event.
As to the help of boot camps in passing the CCIE lab, I attended a two
day class and found it to be helpful. The most valuable aspect was
the ability to work in a lab environment without the constant
interruption of phone and pager. We have quite a few routers in our
lab, but cannot escape the constant interruption.
Though I had only been working with Cisco products for a year at the
time, I believe I could have passed the lab without the lab prep
class--the year of experience involved a large (1500+) router network
that I assumed primary responsibility for, consisting of most every
protocol and platform supported by Cisco.
In a nutshell, if you have enough experience, not necessarily measured
by time, you will pass the CCIE lab. If you don't, no amount of "book
learning" or quick fix courses will get you through.
Later,
Brian--CCIE #2258
Petri Helenius
Bill Vance writes:
>
> There are a number of CCIE's on this forum including myself and I am
> beginning to wonder if it is worth it. The recertification notification
> sent out recently about a May meeting in Nova Scotia is interesting but
> disturbing. It states that this is part of the recertification process and
> makes no mention as to what the entire process is. Why should we pay to go
> to Nova Scotia and then have more to do. It is more expensive than just
> going back to the lab?
I think the major point here is that the people responsibe for this
within Cisco don't know themselves so they cannot tell you either :-)
Pete
William Chops
Well, given the discussion, I thought y'all might enjoy this story from the
"cisco Networkers 94" in Chicago. I've removed some of the names, since
they might be considered incrimating, and it's probably been long enough
that they don't matter anyway. This is part of one of my "trip reports",
which seem to have grown their own style - I hope it's not too casual...
The point of the story, of course, is that debugging "real" network problems
is a complex task - part art, part science, and part luck...
Enjoy
BillW
[begin story]
<snip>
Tuesday 6/29:
Woke up in time for the REQUIRED networkers briefing at 10am.
<snip>
Having nothing further to do until the reception that evening, I wandered
over to the NOC area, where CS (from some ISP?) and CM (from somewhere
popular at the time) were trying to get the T1 line back to cisco up. (It
was over this T1 line that the terminal room, the multicast demos, the ITR
broadcasts, and other high visibility events were scheduled to happen.)
This had been going on for about a day so far, and not a lot of progress was
being made. Mostly, this seemed to be [SomeTelco]'s fault (the provider of
the T1 line.) While they continued to claim that all the problems were our
equipments' fault, we had data to contradict that, and they weren't very
good at escalating the issue or getting us actual on-site technical
assistance. CM was going the political route with [SomeTelco] ("Do you know
who John Morgridge \IS/?", "Let's call <VP of internet services at
someTelco>!") While I tend to normally find such tactics somewhat
distasteful, it was rather amusing being on the yelling side. And
apparently this helped ("Hello. I'm XXX from [SomeTelco]. I've just
received phone calls from a lot of VPs who say I should talk to you.)
Meanwhile, CS, myself, various other cisco people who were difting by, and
apparently an [SomeTelco] guy who was a networkers attendee, were pursuing
the technical route ("Try swapping the wires - can't hurt"; "Power cycle the
CSU/DSU again"; "[SomeTelco] in SF has a loop in now, try pinging
yourself.")
Now, in truth, I don't know whether having this many people involved helped
or not. It's been a long time that I've been involved with a real T1 line,
so I doubt that I contributed much more than an ear on the phone, and some
innate primate button-pushing ability. But when nothing is going right,
it's nice to have friends to commiserate with. Not to mention keeping each
other amused with somewhat off-the-wall solutions ("We've got some wireles
modems, and there's a building not far from here connected to the U of
Chicago network, maybe...") I took off at about 5pm to get ready for the
reception that evening, but when I dropped back in at 6ish (decked out in
Suit and tie) not much progress had been made. Dino and I were reflecting
on how much different the real world can be. Every SW engineer at cisco
should try getting involved in a real network sometime - it's a lot
different than connecting two routers in the lab.
The reception was at Chicago's Shed Aquarium. This is a "way cool" place.
<snip>
Upon returning, people were still busy with the T1 link. By the time I had
changed and gotten back down there, the link was UP! (The problems turned
out to be due to at least a double failure. [SomeTelco] had the link messed
up in some unobvious way (they ended up tearing it down completely and
re-building it), and the chicago CSU/DSU was flakey in other strange ways.)
Tony and Dino were in evidence to help with setting up the rest of the
network, which was non-trivial. About this time we noticed that the
multicast demos needed the link to terminate inside the cisco firewalls (on
Cbone) and the user terminal room needed to have the link terminate outside
the cisco firewall. Oops. Tunnels and a spare router raced to the rescue,
and by the next morning, the link was fully operational (and perhaps even
secure!)
<more snip>
Rob Wolters
> Imran wrote:
>
> The certification process will require attendance to one of these conferences
> and a test. We'll be officially announcing the policy within a month.
>
> Statistics show, very few people going through Boot Camps pass
> CCIE, specially the LAB
>
> Imran
I certainly agree that the CCIE program has significant value.
Passing that &%$%! lab was one of the most rewarding and stressful
situations I can remember.
The certification reflects well on my company, and me. This is why
the gave me the opportunity to invest the time/$$ to get it.
However, I am cautiously awaiting to hear about the re-certification,
process conferences and courses fine, another test... ugh!
Also, could you combine the CCIE and Networkers events? It is going
to be hard to make both Halfix and Orlando.
Cheers,
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rob Wolters (CCIE #1759) Hewlett-Packard Company
Technical Consultant Operations Services Center
r...@atl.hp.com 20 Perimeter Summit Blvd.
(404) 648-5985 Atlanta, GA 30319
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Any opinions expressed her are my own.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Rob Wolters
> Imran wrote:
>
> The certification process will require attendance to one of these conferences
> and a test. We'll be officially announcing the policy within a month.
>
> Statistics show, very few people going through Boot Camps pass
> CCIE, specially the LAB
>
> Imran
> Manager, CCIE Program
I certainly agree that the CCIE program has significant value.
Passing that &%$%! lab was one of the most rewarding and stressful
situations I can remember.
The certification reflects well on my company, and me. This is why
the gave me the opportunity to invest the time/$$ to get it.
I am cautiously awaiting to hear about the re-certification process.
Conferences and courses fine, another test... ugh!
Also, could you combine the CCIE and Networkers events? It is going
to be very difficult to make both Halifax and Orlando.
Ted Mittelstaedt
This kind of comment strikes at the heart of this question. Instead of
asking "Is the CCIE Worth it" you have to ask "What is the CCIE worth
to you"
If the CCIE's sole purpose is to make sure that people are properly
educated, then you might want to look into it.
The problem, though, is when these kind of training programs are vendor
sponsored, it is difficult to avoid the idea that these programs are
sponsored for the self-interest of the vendor, such as to allow them to
claim that so-and-so many people are certified, or that they exist to
promote products. It makes it harder when the vendors use training
programs in their marketing, Novell is famous, for example, of claiming
500,000 CNE's out there, which makes you think that the whole point of
the CNE program is to sell NetWare, not to make people better
understand how to implement it.
When people from Cisco's training program make statements about how
hard the program is to pass, it makes me think that the whole point of
the CCIE is to set this difficult-to-pass hoop up so that Cisco can go
to their potential customers and say "See how hard the CCIE is to pass,
that means that if you buy Cisco routers from this here certified
reseller that has X number of CCIE's on staff that your going to get
really great service" Statements like this do nothing to promote the
idea that Cisco is really much more interested in pushing back the
frontiers of Routing Technology, instead of shoving product out the
door.
I don't want to put down the efforts of Cisco employees in the training
program, because I applaud the fact that Cisco even has any kind of
training program to begin with. I've also done work before on training
materials, and I understand the political pressures faced by any
company trainer. But, there is a lot to be said for technology
training when it comes from an unbiased third party like a University.
For example, I can go into the local school here and listen to a
professor in an advanced networking course point out all the problems
about NetWare, or Cisco. I know I won't hear about those things if I
go to both Cisco and Novell for my training, and it's the problems that
are what I'm hired to solve.
Ted
----------
From: Imran Qureshi[SMTP:qur...@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, March 14, 1997 1:26 PM
To: Bill Vance
Cc: ci...@spot.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Re: CCIE Worth it?
The certification process will require attendance to one of these conferences
and a test. We'll be officially announcing the policy within a month.
Statistics show, very few people going through Boot Camps pass
CCIE, specially the LAB
Imran
Manager, CCIE Program
At 07:54 AM 3/13/97 -0600, Bill Vance wrote:
>>The idea of a CCIE certification is that it is supposed to be evidence that
>>the holder DOES have that broad range of experience. Of course, (mere)
>>classes aimed specifically at passing the CCIE exams make something of a
>>mockery of this ideal. Then again, the same could be said for SAT-prep
>>classes or last-minute cramming for an exam...
>>
>>Once "pass the exam" replaces the goal of "know the material", all is lost.
>>
>>BillW
>>(In my personal opinion, of course.)
>
>There are a number of CCIE's on this forum including myself and I am
>beginning to wonder if it is worth it. The recertification notification
>sent out recently about a May meeting in Nova Scotia is interesting but
>disturbing. It states that this is part of the recertification process and
>makes no mention as to what the entire process is. Why should we pay to go
>to Nova Scotia and then have more to do. It is more expensive than just
>going back to the lab?
Heiko Blume
Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@portsoft.com> writes:
>
> This kind of comment strikes at the heart of this question. Instead of
> asking "Is the CCIE Worth it" you have to ask "What is the CCIE worth
> to you"
or "what does it cost me". AFAIK i would have to take
classes for $$$ that i probably would not take otherwise,
like DECnet and AppleTalk. i'd like the knowledge,
but those classes are expensive.
i also heard from independent sources that being from
a big-o company helps in passing the tests. like
Deutsche Telekom became instant Gold Partner by sending
in over 20 people en bloc AND ALL OF THEM PASSED.
give me a break.
hb
Robert Schaffner
They had special courses at a German Training Partner of Cisco
(all courses + special Labs to prepare)
They passed, but they had to invest a hell of money in education.
CCIE is the same like passing at university. If you learn enough
its not a big deal. You have to be prepared !
Robert Schaffner
Cisco Certified Trainer
CCIE
David Lott
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
[....]
>
> When people from Cisco's training program make statements about how
> hard the program is to pass, it makes me think that the whole point of
> the CCIE is to set this difficult-to-pass hoop up so that Cisco can go
> to their potential customers and say "See how hard the CCIE is to pass,
> that means that if you buy Cisco routers from this here certified
> reseller that has X number of CCIE's on staff that your going to get
> really great service" Statements like this do nothing to promote the
> idea that Cisco is really much more interested in pushing back the
> frontiers of Routing Technology, instead of shoving product out the
> door.
Allow me to take issue with these statements.
First, the CCIE exam IS hard to pass! But is hard to pass because there
is such a wide area that is covered by the test. Networking a large
network with mutipule protocols is not easy. If it were, there would be
a lot of resellers, consultants, and outsourcing companies out of work.
Also, Cisco has found that the VAST majority of network problems come
from mis-configuration, not bugs. In fact, Cisco purchased a company
that only made one product (NetSys) for the the software's ability to
find configuration bugs in router configurations.
In an attempt to redress these issues, the CCIE program was created as a
way of insuring a minimal level of knowledge in the reseller channel and
with independant consultants. Often, these resellers and consultants
sell Bay, 3Com, IBM and other vendors equipment as well. This allows
the customers to go to third parties and not rely just on what Cisco
says.
--
David Lott
Systems Engineer - CCIE #2024
Rockies Region
------------------------------------------------------------
Cisco Systems Inc. Voice: 303 220-6100
7951 E. Maplewood Ave. Direct: 303 220-6166
Suite 300 Fax: 303 689-9055
Englewood, CO 80111 Internet: dal...@cisco.com
------------------------------------------------------------
David Lott
Rob Wolters wrote:
> > Imran
> > Manager, CCIE Program
>
> Also, could you combine the CCIE and Networkers events? It is going
> to be very difficult to make both Halifax and Orlando.
>
Imran,
I think this is a great idea! A couple of days before could cover the
training and testing. And an awards dinner sometime during Networkers
would be Great! It would also get more VAR's and CCIEs to Networks.
Petri Helenius
jdan...@python.hhcomm.com writes:
>
> Are they as well qualified as people who are now taking their CCIE exam
> with no tools at their disposal ?
>
> I am wondering how people who have their CCIE's would feel if they were
> required to go back and re-take the Lab exam with today's new policy.
>
I personally had no accompanying 'notes' or 'information' or whatever
to the lab and didn't feel I needed any. Observing the people that had
the notes, I came into the conclusion that they spent most of the time
browsing their notes anyway. (thus having hard time to do the excersises)
Although I would find it irritating to have to go to the lab again
just to prove again that I can pass it, I would go but this time I
think Cisco would be better to pay for it...
Pete
Link Verstegen
Ted - I've watched this *long* thread with some interest and amusement,
but felt your comments deserved a response. I've put mine in-line.
At 02:15 PM 3/17/97 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>This kind of comment strikes at the heart of this question. Instead of
>asking "Is the CCIE Worth it" you have to ask "What is the CCIE worth
>to you"
>
>If the CCIE's sole purpose is to make sure that people are properly
>educated, then you might want to look into it.
>
>The problem, though, is when these kind of training programs are vendor
>sponsored, it is difficult to avoid the idea that these programs are
>sponsored for the self-interest of the vendor, such as to allow them to
>claim that so-and-so many people are certified, or that they exist to
*linkv* Please notice that there are few CCIEs compared to other programs.
*linkv* Also, realize that one of our primary goals in establishing the
*linkv* program was to help scale the TAC. To that end, there are benefits
*linkv* other than "second level" access for CCIE callers to the TAC. There
*linkv* are also monetary benefits in reduced SmartNet fees, as well indirect
*linkv* savings, i.e. your network is down less. We've also done such things
*linkv* as not allowing customers to use the NSA program unless they had "X"
*linkv* number of CCIEs on staff. Does it help Cisco? Of course. More
importantly,
*linkv* does it help make our customers more successful? I certainly
believe so.
>promote products. It makes it harder when the vendors use training
>programs in their marketing, Novell is famous, for example, of claiming
>500,000 CNE's out there, which makes you think that the whole point of
>the CNE program is to sell NetWare, not to make people better
>understand how to implement it.
>
>When people from Cisco's training program make statements about how
>hard the program is to pass, it makes me think that the whole point of
>the CCIE is to set this difficult-to-pass hoop up so that Cisco can go
>to their potential customers and say "See how hard the CCIE is to pass,
>that means that if you buy Cisco routers from this here certified
>reseller that has X number of CCIE's on staff that your going to get
*linkv* I'm speaking for myself here... I'd rather see CCIEs on the
end-user's
*linkv* staff than with our resellers. The closer highly skilled/educated
*linkv* are to the problem, the more likely they'll have a vested interest in
*linkv* solving it. Not only that, they're more likely to fix it without
even
*linkv* going to the vendor/reseller.
>really great service" Statements like this do nothing to promote the
>idea that Cisco is really much more interested in pushing back the
>frontiers of Routing Technology, instead of shoving product out the
>door.
>
>I don't want to put down the efforts of Cisco employees in the training
>program, because I applaud the fact that Cisco even has any kind of
>training program to begin with. I've also done work before on training
>materials, and I understand the political pressures faced by any
>company trainer. But, there is a lot to be said for technology
>training when it comes from an unbiased third party like a University.
*linkv* Hear, Hear!! Unfortunately, it's really tough for independent
*linkv* parties to stay on top of vendor specific implementations of
*linkv* technology, no matter how stringently those implementations adhere
*linkv* to published standards. Vendors just don't stand still (well, some
*linkv* do, but they don't last long...;-) There are a number of Cisco
*linkv* certified training organizations that also handle other vendors.
*linkv* One of these would probably be your best bet for that independent
*linkv* view you're looking for. Of course, we've always been very open
*linkv* about our bugs, both those found internally as well as customer
discovered.
>For example, I can go into the local school here and listen to a
>professor in an advanced networking course point out all the problems
>about NetWare, or Cisco. I know I won't hear about those things if I
>go to both Cisco and Novell for my training, and it's the problems that
>are what I'm hired to solve.
>
>Ted
>
*linkv* The bottom line: We developed the CCIE program to help our customers
*linkv* be successful. Our success depends on yours.
regards,
linkv
Consulting Engineer, Cisco Systems, Inc.
(303)220-6136 - Office
(303)810-0121 - Mobile
Link Verstegen
At 10:57 AM 3/20/97 -0800, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>I had a feeling that my comments might generate a response. Since I'm not
a CCIE I
>of course cannot comment on the value of the actual program, only on the
perception. I can say that I've helped on writing course materials for one
of Novell's CNE classes, and in my opinion the CNE is a joke - it's sole
purpose is to take people who know nothing about networking, and teach them
just enough so that they become dependent on Novell for their networking
needs.
* We are in violent agreement about the CNE. I was the TAC manager for
* Desktop Protocols, FDDI, and Network Management for 2 1/2 years.
* Whenever I saw CNE prominently displayed on a resume', I would think,
* "Boy, is he/she in for a shock..."
>
>In any case, basically I have to come from the old cost/value perspective.
I sit at home with the Universal CD, dial in to my organization's network,
and spend the time needed to read through it and experiment with the router
and become thoroughly familiar with the material. Do I need to spend
additional money on going to a vendor training program?
* Not at all required. Only requirements of the program are to pass the
* written ($100) at a Drake testing center (~1000 worldwide, the last time
* I checked) to obtain permission to take the lab ($1000). We do *not*
* make any money on the certification. In fact, you can't even in most
* cases take any classes from us. Not our line of business. We'll train
* the trainers, partners/distributors, and employees, but are no longer
* doing formal training for end customers. The lab costs us about $250K
* a year to maintain, plus the salaries of the Customer Support Engineers
* who rotate through to administer it.
>
>To my mindset, the question is really "does the individual need structured
training programs like a CCIE or a CNE at all", rather than "which is
better" I come from the old school where if you buy a machine you fix it
yourself - I repair my house, do my own wrenching on my cars, do my own
programming on my phone system, do my own hardware setup and configuration,
and I do my own server setup and configuration. To me the router is
nothing more than just another interesting hardware item with a big fat
manual that tells all about how it works - to unlock the key to the
interesting box you read the manual. I find it sad today that so many IS
people these days cannot even put together a PC without getting on the
phone and calling a vendor, and I feel that vendors have kind of encouraged
the "Oh, if you really want to know how our machine works you have to take
our training classes" attitude.
* Remember, no formal training required, just proving you can do it
* by passing the exams.
>
>Anyway, it disturbs me to hear you say that only CCIE people have
"second-level" access to the TAC. I know that you have to filter your
engineers from the dummies, but what about those of us who read the
instructions and follow them, run across a bona-fide bug or problem, know
that we have one, yet don't have the piece of paper on the wall saying that
we are smart enough to know when the equipment isin't following the
published behaviors in it's manuals? I hope that when you build this
empire that you still leave some doors for those of us who would rather get
our fingers into the hardware by ourselves and learn that way, then sit
through a class.
* Open for suggestions on how to improve! Yes, there are people to
* whom the CCIE exams would be a waste of time, but I think we could
* probably count them on one hand. The exams and their prep are a
* learning experience. An analogy: I've been a ski instructor for
* the past 7 years. There are several stages of certification to go
* through; not required, but certainly recommended - pay goes up with
* each level. I took and passed the first two a couple of years apart,
* then took the third level last spring. Even though I didn't even
* come that close to passing, I sure learned a lot, both in the training
* prep for the exam, *and* during the exam itself. I'm a better skier
* and teacher because of the process. Going to college didn't teach
* me what I needed to know to succeed in business, but it did help
* teach me how to learn.
* linkv
>
>Ted
>
>
>----------
<previous discussion deleted for brevity>
* ps - I've added spot back to this because I think this is a good
* discussion to share with the crowds.
David Coleman
Robert Schaffner wrote:
>
> Heiko Blume wrote:
> >
> > Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@portsoft.com> writes:
> >
> > >
> > > asking "Is the CCIE Worth it" you have to ask "What is the CCIE worth
> > > to you"
> >
> > classes for $$$ that i probably would not take otherwise,
> > like DECnet and AppleTalk. i'd like the knowledge,
> > but those classes are expensive.
> >
> > i also heard from independent sources that being from
> > a big-o company helps in passing the tests. like
> > Deutsche Telekom became instant Gold Partner by sending
> > in over 20 people en bloc AND ALL OF THEM PASSED.
> > give me a break.
> >
> > hb
>
> They had special courses at a German Training Partner of Cisco
> (all courses + special Labs to prepare)
> They passed, but they had to invest a hell of money in education.
> CCIE is the same like passing at university. If you learn enough
> its not a big deal. You have to be prepared !
If I'm not mistaken, this would be the group that issolated themselves
for 3 complete months of labs and studying exclusively for the CCIE
test. Three months of torturing your co-workers with router problems
would be quite good prep for the lab ("OK, let's see how good we can
get Joe on this one.....").
David
>
> Robert Schaffner
>
> Cisco Certified Trainer
> CCIE
--
+--------------------+---------------------+---------------------------+
+ || || + + David J. Coleman +
+ || || + Cisco Systems, Inc. + Customer Engineer +
+ |||| |||| + 170 West Tasman Dr + Phone: (408) 526-4757 +
+.:||||||:.:||||||:..+ San Jose, CA 95134 + Fax: (408) 232-2357 +
+ Cisco Systems Inc. + + Email: dcol...@cisco.com +
+--------------------+---------------------+---------------------------+
Wade Williams
At 2:15 PM -0800 3/17/97, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
>When people from Cisco's training program make statements about how
>hard the program is to pass, it makes me think that the whole point of
>the CCIE is to set this difficult-to-pass hoop up so that Cisco can go
>to their potential customers and say "See how hard the CCIE is to pass,
>that means that if you buy Cisco routers from this here certified
>reseller that has X number of CCIE's on staff that your going to get
>really great service"
As one who sells in the field, I can totally discount this theory. Not
only do we not do it, we'd kill ourselves if we did. Having a few CCIE's
on staff does not mean Cisco will run around promoting a resller as expert.
That does not mean there aren't some CCIE-laden resellers who aren't
expert, but to suggest Cisco uses the CCIE program as a simple sales tactic
is wrong.
>Statements like this do nothing to promote the
>idea that Cisco is really much more interested in pushing back the
>frontiers of Routing Technology, instead of shoving product out the
>door.
Hmm...I might suggest you read with a more critical mind. Don't believe
the conspiricy theories the press puts in front of you.
> But, there is a lot to be said for technology
>training when it comes from an unbiased third party like a University.
>For example, I can go into the local school here and listen to a
>professor in an advanced networking course point out all the problems
>about NetWare, or Cisco. I know I won't hear about those things if I
>go to both Cisco and Novell for my training, and it's the problems that
>are what I'm hired to solve.
You must have a different university than any I've ever seen. The advanced
networking course at one university I attended spent 8 weeks on SNA and 1
week on WANs and LANs because the professor said those weren't significant
in a business environment.
No, a CCIE won't teach you how to troubleshoot a T-1 or how to argue
effectively with your Telecommunications provider. Those are real skills
network managers need, but it's simply not realistic to expect the CCIE to
provide them. The CCIE ensures that you are at a reasonably-high
competance level on Cisco routers. Beyond that, experience is the only
decent teacher.
Wade
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wade Williams "Any escape might help to smooth the
Systems Engineer unattractive truth, but the suburbs
Cisco Systems, Inc. have no charms to soothe the restless
Brentwood, TN dreams of youth."
615-221-2918 - N. Peart
wwil...@cisco.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Sandow
> > Imran wrote:
> >
> > The certification process will require attendance to one of these conferences
> > and a test. We'll be officially announcing the policy within a month.
> process conferences and courses fine, another test... ugh!
>
> Also, could you combine the CCIE and Networkers events? It is going
I have to agree here. Cisco has always said that CCIE is not like CNE
or other certifications, because it does not just test Cisco-specific
skills that can be learned from a manual and classroom. Anyone who has
taken the lab can attest to the fact that CCIEs are tested on things that
they probably have not done before, and part of passing the test is to
apply general networking knowledge to solving these problems. If CCIE
is not so much a "vendor-proficiency" evaluation as it is a test of
ability to figure things out, then why the emphasis on re-certification?
I thought the point of CCIE certification was that in Cisco's opinion
a CCIE would have the skills to adapt to new IOS features etc. I can
understand the desire on Cisco's part to make sure Cisco employees who
are supposed to be the top engineers keep current on the technology, but
maybe they should figure out some way to do that outside the CCIE
program, so as not to burden their customers with recurring costs for
trips to conferences which many of our employers are not willing to pay for.
I, for one, would hate to have spent over $2,000 to pass the test just
last year, only to find out that I have to keep doing it over and over
again for life in order to maintain my CCIE status. Just my opinion...
Rob
---------------------------------------------------------------
Robert H. Sandow | CCIE#: 1878
Vice President | voice: 201-524-4053
Manager, Network Engineering | fax: 201-524-4349
Lehman Brothers, Inc | email: rsa...@lehman.com
101 Hudson Street | rsa...@webspan.net
28th Floor |
Jersey City, NJ 07302 |
jdan...@python.hhcomm.com
After reading all of the various emails concerning this subject matter, I
felt that it was time to respond with some issue's that will now face
existing CCIE's and ones that are pursuing their CCIE.
I am in the middle or coordinating individuals who are pursuing their CCIE
and was recently informed that now when you take the Lab, you cannot bring
any information or material into the Lab with you. This is quite different
from what or how the test used to be. You used to be able to bring
information with you as if you were on a customer premise. Whether this was
notes or email's from Spot you could use this information to assist you in
the Lab.
This is like walking around the woods looking for a bear, when the only
tool or weapon that you have is a toothpick and then hoping like hell you
can find something better to defend yourself or act like King Arthur in
search for the holy grail and "running away" when the bear finds you.
Since this has recently (relative term) changed I wonder if Cisco will be
requiring that all CCIE's who passed prior to this policy, re-certify in
the lab with no material other then what Cisco provides like everyone else
has to now. I am not taking anything away from people who have passed the
lab, I congratulate them on them passing the Lab.
Does this mean that people who took the CCIE in the past had an easier time
taking the test prior to the change in policy ?
Are they as well qualified as people who are now taking their CCIE exam
with no tools at their disposal ?
I am wondering how people who have their CCIE's would feel if they were
required to go back and re-take the Lab exam with today's new policy.
Flak Jacket On,
Just my 2 Cents,
Joe
***************************************************************************
The opinions expressed here are my own. No one owns then other then
myself. They do not reflect my employers opinions or views.
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pe...@sms.fi on 03/16/97 03:53:54 AM
To: Bill_...@ins.com
cc: bi...@cisco.com, ci...@spot.Colorado.EDU (bcc: Joe
Danrich/Chicago/DSI/US)
Subject: Re: CCIE Worth it?
Bill Vance writes:
>
> There are a number of CCIE's on this forum including myself and I am
> beginning to wonder if it is worth it. The recertification notification
> sent out recently about a May meeting in Nova Scotia is interesting but
> disturbing. It states that this is part of the recertification process
and > makes no mention as to what the entire process is. Why should we pay
to go > to Nova Scotia and then have more to do. It is more expensive than
just > going back to the lab?
I think the major point here is that the people responsibe for this