Re: Wireless router

[Dan Sutter]

On 3/16/2013 11:22 AM, ���hw��f wrote:
> Dan Sutter wrote:
>> On 3/6/2013 3:19 PM, fsvi...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>>> I need some advice on what wireless router to purchase.
>>>
>> Well...
>> Maybe it is a good question after all.
>>

>> At work, (my job), during the same time period, We have had Netgear, Linksys and Cisco/Linksys.
>> Today at work, we are using a Cysco/Linksys 3200, for our WI-FI and the customers
>> complain almost every day that they cannot connect! So we reboot it.
>>
> Somethings fishy. How do they authenticate with your AP? Whitelist of MAC addys? OR whut?
>
>> PS. I don't have any experience with DLINK equipment.
>> Dan
> Me neither. But I haint done heard no bad things about em neither :)
���hw��f
>
Thank you ���hw��f.

I would like to pursue your "Somethings fishy" comment from above.
Let me tell you the parameters:
1.) It is in the back kitchen of a restaurant.
2.) It is on a dedicated circuit breaker.
3.) It is plugged into an expensive, one socket surge protector.
4.) It is installed 6 feet from the floor of an 8 foot space, in a corner on top a
small wire cornered shelf (for it's breathing space).
5.) The corner is situated so that is as close as we can get to the center of the building.
6.) It is an AT&T DSL 6MB connection.

We have to be PCI compliant, so that means our WI-FI network is isolated from our in house network, yet
they share the same internet connection.

What do you think?
Can routers be so sensitive to their environment?
I can tell you, that now in the cooler months, we don't even turn on the heat in the back kitchen.
When the waitstaff come in they complain "Man! It is FREEZING back here"!
Although, in the summer months I can loose a few pounds. :)

I will crosspost to:
comp.dcom.net-management
and
comp.dcom.net-analysis

but they don't get a lot of traffic. (What is dcom?)

TIA,
Dan Sutter

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[§ñühwö£f]

anyone wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:59:16 -0400, Dan Sutter wrote:

>
>> On 3/16/2013 11:22 AM, §ñühwö£f wrote:
>>> Dan Sutter wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/2013 3:19 PM, fsvi...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>>>>> I need some advice on what wireless router to purchase.
>>>>>
>>>> Well... Maybe it is a good question after all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At work, (my job), during the same time period, We have had
>>>> Netgear, Linksys and Cisco/Linksys. Today at work, we are using
>>>> a Cysco/Linksys 3200, for our WI-FI and the customers complain
>>>> almost every day that they cannot connect! So we reboot it.
>>>>
>>> Somethings fishy. How do they authenticate with your AP?
>>> Whitelist of MAC addys? OR whut?
>>>
>>>> PS. I don't have any experience with DLINK equipment. Dan
>>> Me neither. But I haint done heard no bad things about em neither
>>> :)

>> §ñühwö£f Thank you §ñühwö£f.

>>
>> I would like to pursue your "Somethings fishy" comment from above.
>> Let me tell you the parameters: 1.) It is in the back kitchen of a
>> restaurant. 2.) It is on a dedicated circuit breaker. 3.) It is
>> plugged into an expensive, one socket surge protector. 4.) It is
>> installed 6 feet from the floor of an 8 foot space, in a corner on
>> top a small wire cornered shelf (for it's breathing space). 5.) The
>> corner is situated so that is as close as we can get to the center
>> of the building. 6.) It is an AT&T DSL 6MB connection.
>

> Observation:
>
> If 'distance' were a problem, customers who sat nearest the kitchen
> would find fewer problems than those near the most distant wall.
> Does everyone have the same level of difficulty?
>
Exactly. Connect to the AP with a laptop and walk around while checking
the signal strength. Steel beams and wiring can interfere with signal.

> You don't mention configuration of the WAP, how does it get its IP
> address? Is the WAP otherwise configured as pass-through, to some
> controller/switch?
>
Bridge mode?

>> We have to be PCI compliant, so that means our WI-FI network is
>> isolated from our in house network,
>

> I don't follow you on that one... What do you believe is the
> implication of PCI compliance and WiFi?

>
>> yet they share the same internet connection.
>

> How are those boxes 'sharing' the same connection? Does the other
> box have Network Address Translation?
>
Should be sure to be using a different channel as well.

>> What do you think? Can routers be so sensitive to their
>> environment?
>

> Yes, that is -possible-. Depends on the kind and density of objects
> between the WAP and client, power level and antenna configuration on
> the client machine, and so on. '...cannot connect...' suggests a
> setup problem.
>
Or RF from some source. Again, gotta walk around and look for hotspots.
I have two AP's in my house. One has a tiny coverage area and the other
gets all the way out to the garage. I set the preamble on the 2nd one to
"long" for better linkup. Gotta dig down into the advanced settings a
bit & start tweakin em. Try a different channel, try setting the AP to
"open" then hide the BSSID and only give that to the clients. If that
dont work try WPA. But I'd bet its RF from a source and signal dropouts
in certain areas.

--
http://signon.org/sign/protect-americas-wolves
www.snuhwolf.9f.com|www.savewolves.org
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/___/_/|_/\____/_//_/ \_@_/ \__|\__|\____/\____\_\

[Dan Sutter]

On 3/20/2013 8:43 PM, anyone wrote in response to my post:

> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:59:16 -0400, Dan Sutter wrote:
>

>> On 3/16/2013 11:22 AM, §ñühwö£f wrote:
>>> Dan Sutter wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/2013 3:19 PM, fsvi...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>>>>> I need some advice on what wireless router to purchase.
>>>>>
>>>> Well...
>>>> Maybe it is a good question after all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At work, (my job), during the same time period, We have had Netgear,
>>>> Linksys and Cisco/Linksys.
>>>> Today at work, we are using a Cysco/Linksys 3200, for our WI-FI and
>>>> the customers complain almost every day that they cannot connect! So
>>>> we reboot it.
>>>>
>>> Somethings fishy. How do they authenticate with your AP? Whitelist of
>>> MAC addys? OR whut?
>>>
>>>> PS. I don't have any experience with DLINK equipment.
>>>> Dan
>>> Me neither. But I haint done heard no bad things about em neither :)

>> §ñühwö£f
>>>
>> Thank you §ñühwö£f.

>>
>> I would like to pursue your "Somethings fishy" comment from above.
>> Let me tell you the parameters:
>> 1.) It is in the back kitchen of a restaurant.
>> 2.) It is on a dedicated circuit breaker.
>> 3.) It is plugged into an expensive, one socket surge protector.
>> 4.) It is installed 6 feet from the floor of an 8 foot space, in a
>> corner on top a
>> small wire cornered shelf (for it's breathing space).
>> 5.) The corner is situated so that is as close as we can get to the
>> center of the building.
>> 6.) It is an AT&T DSL 6MB connection.
>

> Observation:
>
> If 'distance' were a problem, customers who sat nearest the kitchen would find fewer problems than those near the
> most distant wall. Does everyone have the same level of difficulty?
>

Yes. Nobody can connect to the WI-FI frequently.

> You don't mention configuration of the WAP, how does it get its IP address? Is the WAP otherwise configured as
> pass-through, to some controller/switch?

I Think so.
We have a DSL modem connected to a router.
The router has two other routers connected to it.
One router is our WAP, The other is our private office network.
Both second routers get their IP address from the the router connected to the modem.
See below...

>
>> We have to be PCI compliant, so that means our WI-FI network is isolated
>> from our in house network,
>

> I don't follow you on that one... What do you believe is the implication of PCI compliance and WiFi?
>

What I believe the implication of PCI Compliance is that our POS server cannot be compromised by our WI-FI users.
Just a few months ago, I called our POS MICROS techs to complain about this very same problem.
At that time, Our WI-FI router connected directly to our modem and our office network router connected to it...
so when the WI-FI failed, so did our entire office network, and so the MICROS server couldn't verify credit card
transactions without reverting to 54k modem access.

Their (our MICROS DEALER) answer was to add an additional router and the split the internet access between
our WI-FI and our office network.
But still... That D@#$%m WI-FI router fails while our office network continues to enjoy access.
That is why I consider the environment of the router.

>> yet they share the same internet connection.
>

> How are those boxes 'sharing' the same connection? Does the other box have Network Address Translation?
>

NAT? I don't know.

>> What do you think?
>> Can routers be so sensitive to their environment?
>

> Yes, that is -possible-. Depends on the kind and density of objects between the WAP and client, power level and
> antenna configuration on the client machine, and so on. '...cannot connect...' suggests a setup problem.
>

There really isn't any density problem(walls, coolers, storage), but heat, cold and "oil vapor"?

>> I can tell you, that now in the cooler months, we don't even turn on the
>> heat in the back kitchen. When the waitstaff come in they complain "Man!
>> It is FREEZING back here"!
>> Although, in the summer months I can loose a few pounds. :)
>>
>> I will crosspost to:
>> comp.dcom.net-management
>> and
>> comp.dcom.net-analysis
>>
>> but they don't get a lot of traffic. (What is dcom?)
>

> shorthand for "data communication," I expect.
>
Thanks for your questions,

[Dan Sutter]

Thanks again §ñühwö£f and anyone,

But you see, once we isolated the WI-FI from the office, the interruptions for our WI-FI clientele continue
even though our service remains intact. (ever since we split access with a third router at the helm.)
I had once proposed to management that we should cut a hole through the wall and put the WI-FI router right in
the dining room where there is a regulated temperature and less cooking vapors.
They said, "let's just see how the new arrangement (1 modem, 1 main router and 2 dependent routers) works.
[not so good]
Again, I ask, Can routers be so sensitive to their environment?

TIA,
Dan Sutter
PS. I do not see my posts in comp.dcom.net-management

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to 24hoursupport.helpdesk.]
On 2013-03-20, Dan Sutter <dsut...@tcSPAM3net.com> wrote:

> On 3/16/2013 11:22 AM, §ñühwö£f wrote:
>> Dan Sutter wrote:
>>> On 3/6/2013 3:19 PM, fsvi...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

[...]

> I would like to pursue your "Somethings fishy" comment from above.
> Let me tell you the parameters:
> 1.) It is in the back kitchen of a restaurant.
> 2.) It is on a dedicated circuit breaker.
> 3.) It is plugged into an expensive, one socket surge protector.
> 4.) It is installed 6 feet from the floor of an 8 foot space, in a
> corner on top a small wire cornered shelf (for it's breathing
> space).
> 5.) The corner is situated so that is as close as we can get to the
> center of the building.
> 6.) It is an AT&T DSL 6MB connection.

I'd try replacing the wire shelf with something non-metallic. Metal things
near any radio aerial can have strange effects on the signal. That goes
for reinforcing bars or steel framework inside the walls of a building,
too.

Some routers are designed so that they can be hung from one or two nails in
the wall, instead of being stood on a horizontal surface.

It is possible to increase the strength a radio signal in one direction by
putting a 'reflector' near the aerial; there are designs on-line for DIY,
or you can buy ready-made versions.

Make sure your wireless access point is not sharing a channel with any
other nearby routers. There are apps for smartphones that can show you
what channels all the routers within range are using. If there are many
routers within range, interference can be a problem on all channels.
Microwave ovens and cordless telephones can also interfere.

Are the access point and routers cabable of handling the number of people
who want to connect at the same time? Is the DHCP server set to allocate
enough local IP numbers? How quickly do allocations 'expire'?

You can ease congestion by installing more wireless access points, but the
router and internet connection might still be bottlenecks.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Wes Thom]

You are trying to solve a hardware and an IP problem simultaneously as if same. Simpler is to break the two into separate unknowns. And then solve each. For example, in similar situations, we would connect Wifi and hardwired networks to one POS server on separate Ethernet cards. Then known problems and other unforeseen problems mean one network always works no matter what happens to the other. It also makes security easier.

Second, electronics must work perfectly fine even in a 100 degree F room. Many will operate diagnostics overnight and call that stress testing. It is not. Stress testing is operating electronic hardware in all normal temperatures (including over 100 degree F and below 40 degree F) while running diagnostics (or normal operation). Use normal but extreme temperatures to identify defective hardware that works OK in a 70 degree room. Electronics that fail at those other normal temperatures will often fail months or years later at 70 degrees. Temperature is a toll to even eliminate defects that only cause failures months or a year later.

Third, a dedicated circuit is usually unnecessary. A simpler tool is an incandescent light bulb. Power the bulb from the same receptacle that powers hardware. Does the bulb remain constant intensity? Then power on that circuit is fine. Normal voltage for any electronics is even when that bulb dims to 50% intensity. That bulb is a superior tool for eliminating AC power problems from the suspect list.

Fourth, you have no idea what the Wifi is doing without a signal strength meter. For example, Dell provided one with Wifi software. Another package is Netstumbler. Five bars is useless. To establish WiFi integrity to all portable devices means software on a laptop (or a more expensive dedicated tool) to see the only useful numbers. dBs.

For example, in one building. the concrete wall was only on a lower floor. I could look across the building at the Wifi. And watch the signal diminish as I walked over that concrete wall. I look right at that Wifi and still could not get a useful signal until I walked back over that concrete wall (that was only downstairs). Radio waves at those frequencies have strange behavior.

Remember, leaking microwave ovens take out Wifi. Just another reason for a tool that provides numbers in dBs.

The tool must report tiniest changes in less than a second. Only then can walking around with the laptop report something useful. Again, a most useless tool is something with five bars.

Four examples of how to identify or solve hardware problems. IP problems are a completely different topic. Trying to solve both IP problems and hardware problems simultaneously only created multiple unknowns. As the unknowns (suspects) increase, then a problem's complexity increases 'exponentially'. Separate a hardwired network from the Wifi (using a router does not provide sufficient separation). Use above suggested hardware tools to first establish hardware integrity.

After hardware integrity is established, only then move on to possible IP problems. Above demonstrates how to break a problem into parts. Then solve one part at a time.

[Dan Sutter]

On 3/25/2013 1:53 PM, anyone wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 19:30:15 -0400, Dan Sutter wrote:
>
>> On 3/20/2013 8:43 PM, anyone wrote in response to my post:
>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:59:16 -0400, Dan Sutter wrote:
>>>

> [...]

>>> You don't mention configuration of the WAP, how does it get its IP
>>> address? Is the WAP otherwise configured as pass-through, to some
>>> controller/switch?
>>
>> I Think so.
>> We have a DSL modem connected to a router.
>> The router has two other routers connected to it.
>> One router is our WAP, The other is our private office network.
>> Both second routers get their IP address from the the router connected
>> to the modem.
>> See below...

> [...]
>
> On re-thinking the above, I suspect that and my other scheme won't work. The DSL modem can be operated in pass-
> through, so it doesn't need an IP address or net mask. Also -- should the question arise -- you cannot successfully
> use a switch between the DSL modem and R1, because the ISP leases you only one public IP address at a time.
> Some routers have 'static route' features, it isn't clear that will help you.
Exactly. A switch after the modem will effectively be useless.

>
> Next, unless there is some unusual feature built-in to them, it seems all of the other three routers must be on the
> same subnet; the "R2" and "R3" routers must connect to the primary router "R1" through their respective LAN ports,
> and you get 508 usable IP addresses. If you do nothing else, everything on 'Office' could 'see' everything on 'WiFi',
> and the reverse. To get separation between 'Office' and 'WiFi', you could:
>
> 1. Purchase a second IP address lease from your ISP; configure subnets through different addresses and masks
> 2. Purchase a second line and DSL modem
> 3. Go into the WAP setup, look for "Wireless Isolation". If the feature exists, it may restrict WiFi connections to
> "Internet only", precluding access to any other wired/wireless connection on your network (e.g., Netgear WNDR3700;
> see your user setup manual).
>

Thank you 'anyone' for your ideas.

I will answer all three post here to save text room.

No. I would say our modem is not in "pass-through" mode. It allows us to get a single IP address from
our AT&T DSL provider and supplies it to our first router, R1.

As I understand it, bridge mode would limit the router to a dumb switch (hub).
By using routers, each router wants to set up their own sub-net. They will take the IP address
they're given and "route" the signals (packets) to their own connections (sub-net).
So, Our modem is given an IP address, and R1 sub-nets (obfuscates?) that address to it's connections.
When you connect other routers that are NOT bridged, they will create their own sub nets from the
IP address they get from R1. Virtually creating NEW networks, unable to communicate directly (as a network).

If I didn't mention so before. The entire office network is hardwired and doesn't rely on
wireless.
The wireless is ONLY for our patrons.

The first line in the artical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subnetwork) you reffered to me is:

A subnetwork, or subnet, is a logically visible subdivision of an IP network.
The practice of dividing a network into two or more networks is called subnetting

(In the first sentence above, the word 'visible' is maybe a bad choice.)

Still disappointing our patrons but
thanks for your thoughts,

[Wes Thom]

On Monday, March 25, 2013 7:12:35 PM UTC-4, Dan Sutter wrote:
> If I didn't mention so before. The entire office network is hardwired
> and doesn't rely on wireless.
>
> The wireless is ONLY for our patrons.

If I understand those connections, well, I could walk into your store, put my WiFi in promiscuous mode, and collect all hardwired data transactions. Recommended not only to debug your problems. Also recommended for other unmentioned reasons. That Wifi network is best a separate network.

[Dan Sutter]

Thanks Wes,

Your posts gave me a lot of information and a practical approach.
Currently, My wife has gone back to school but had her laptop stolen.
So... She is using mine. It is tough to get a few minutes with it.
(she'll have her own soon, This project wiil begin then).

1st:
I do have MetaGeek's inSSIDer installed. I plan to use it to monitor the wireless
signal from my work's WIFI signal. I will find a standard early in the morning before anyone
is there. Run the microwave several times to check signal strength.
I thought I would have my laptop several feet away at that time.
To see what happens. inSSider has a time line graph without bars. The timeline starts at -100dBm
and goes up to 20dBm. (dBM?)
(To Check hardware issues 1st).

Then, I have already have downloaded "Wireshark" (but I haven't installed it yet).
(for "promiscuous mode" monitoring).
The download page claims:
"Each Windows package comes with the latest stable release of WinPcap, which is required for live packet capture.
If needed you can install the latest development release from the WinPcap download page."
I especially do not want that running while my wife is the primary user.
Even I am not sure I can keep the capture to a safe disk usage.
(I hope I find a hardware problem.)

AND, I still haven't researched the connection count(capacity) available with our current WI-FI router.
Could a router crap out if the demands on it surpassed its connection capacity?

Thanks for all your advise,