Can ISDN replace home analog line?
Eric Patrizi
Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
ISDN modem and connect, at the demarc, my house's existing analog
telephone wiring to the analog port on the ISDN modem. All of the ISDN
modems I am aware of do not provide enough power on the analog ports to
drive multiple phones in multiple rooms. I wish to replace my analog
phone line with the ISDN box and drive the whole house off of one analog
port. Actually I wish to drive one analog port to one half of the house
and drive the other analog port to the other half. I am looking for
some device that can plug into the analog port on the ISDN modem that
would boost the drive capability to allow me to drive the current analog
telephones.
David Lesher
Eric Patrizi <epat...@dnaent.com> writes:
>Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
>me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
>of my ISDN modem.
Well, if you JUST want ringer boosters, Viking sells same.
An alternative is an inexpensive PBX, such as the Panasonic KXT's.
It will work with your POTS phones, give you lots of features,
and goes in easily....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Art Prufer
Eric Patrizi wrote:
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
> me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
> ISDN modem and connect, at the demarc, my house's existing analog
> telephone wiring to the analog port on the ISDN modem.
Eric,
Try the 3com ImpactIQ. I'm driving three phones
off of one POTS port with no problem (one phone has no ringer).
Long live ISDN,
Art
Mike Gawdun
On Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:58:24 -0500, Eric Patrizi <epat...@dnaent.com>
wrote:
>Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
>me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
>of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
>ISDN modem and connect, at the demarc, my house's existing analog
>telephone wiring to the analog port on the ISDN modem. All of the ISDN
>modems I am aware of do not provide enough power on the analog ports to
>drive multiple phones in multiple rooms. I wish to replace my analog
>phone line with the ISDN box and drive the whole house off of one analog
>port. Actually I wish to drive one analog port to one half of the house
>and drive the other analog port to the other half. I am looking for
>some device that can plug into the analog port on the ISDN modem that
>would boost the drive capability to allow me to drive the current analog
>telephones.
So am I, and I bought a P-75 router from Ascend to be able to extend
the analog ports to other phones in the house because I have a very
large UPS for my PC and extra jacks to accommodate two more devices.
Unfortunately, the analog ports on the Ascend seem to be merely
cosmetic because they don't work very well for directly connected
devices either. It frustrating to have a device that works great for
the data and is a joke for the voice stuff. I am shopping around for
other routers but am not optimistic.
I don't want a terminal adapter because the connections stay up unless
you manually turn them off. With a router, you can setup time
thresholds to disconnect, dynamically add a second B-channel for file
transfers (and then release it when file is downloaded), and the
faster connect times.
I think the router vendors need to rethink the design of the analog
ports and beef them up quite a bit more. The tradeoff is being forced
to have separate POTS line for all the voice lines and keep the RBOC
coffers full with money they don't really need.
>
Stan Goodman
In message <33B96F70...@dnaent.com> - Eric Patrizi
<epat...@dnaent.com>Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:58:24 -0500 writes:
:>
:>Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
:>me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
:>of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
:>ISDN modem and connect, at the demarc, my house's existing analog
:>telephone wiring to the analog port on the ISDN modem. All of the ISDN
:>modems I am aware of do not provide enough power on the analog ports to
:>drive multiple phones in multiple rooms. I wish to replace my analog
:>phone line with the ISDN box and drive the whole house off of one analog
:>port. Actually I wish to drive one analog port to one half of the house
:>and drive the other analog port to the other half. I am looking for
:>some device that can plug into the analog port on the ISDN modem that
:>would boost the drive capability to allow me to drive the current analog
:>telephones.
I haven't done this yet, but I intend to do what you have done as soon as the
telephone company installs ISDN in this town.
As you say, the problem is the ringer-equivalent capacity of the ISDN adapter
(note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and doesn't
DEModulate).
The first thing you have to do is determine how many ringer-equivalents you
have on your analog system. Typically, telephone systems have been able to
carry five ringer equivalents; a ringer equivalent is the ringer load of a
single telephone, but modern electronic telephones do not require nearly as
much juice to ring as the pre-electonic ones did (these often have ringer
equivalents of about 0.1 or 0.15). Next, examine how many ringer equivalents
your ISDN adapter will carry; you may already be home free.
Your telephone company can surely steer you to a manufacturer of a device
which will ring your telephones if the calculation shows that you need one.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Stan Goodman %
% Qiryat Tiv'on %
% ISRAEL %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
(Remove xx to email)
mike....@mindspring.com (Mike Gawdun) wrote:
>
>So am I, and I bought a P-75 router from Ascend to be able to extend
>the analog ports to other phones in the house because I have a very
>large UPS for my PC and extra jacks to accommodate two more devices.
>Unfortunately, the analog ports on the Ascend seem to be merely
>cosmetic because they don't work very well for directly connected
>devices either. It frustrating to have a device that works great for
>the data and is a joke for the voice stuff. I am shopping around for
>other routers but am not optimistic.
Check out the Congo Line from ACC
at www.acc.com
They offer some nice routers with POTS ports w/CallerID to the port
too. (Big feature need for me, I live & die for CallerID). Anyway, it
seems like a good product. I don't know if it will meet your needs.
Has a 10BaseT connection unfortunately, I wish they made one with a
Coax connection since I use ThinNet, oh well.
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Henry Baker
In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il
wrote:
> (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and doesn't
> DEModulate).
Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_ modulate and demodulate.
I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one of 4 'symbols', and
they must have to do some equalization & echo cancellation in order to
work over such long lines.
---
I'm curious as to why an ISDN box is distinct and separate from an 'analog'
DSP-based modem. Why can't the DSP handle both kinds of operations with
different software?
David Lesher
mike....@mindspring.com (Mike Gawdun) writes:
>So am I, and I bought a P-75 router from Ascend to be able to extend
>the analog ports to other phones in the house because I have a very
>large UPS for my PC and extra jacks to accommodate two more devices.
>Unfortunately, the analog ports on the Ascend seem to be merely
>cosmetic because they don't work very well for directly connected
>devices either. It frustrating to have a device that works great for
>the data and is a joke for the voice stuff. I am shopping around for
>other routers but am not optimistic.
Strange, I've been very happy with the POTS ports on my 75. Early
on, I know some people had grief with specific units, and Ascend
replaced those.
What specific grief have you had?
Fred R. Goldstein
In article <hbaker-0207...@10.0.2.1>, hba...@netcom.com says...
>> (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and
doesn't
>> DEModulate).
>Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_ modulate and
demodulate.
>I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one of 4 'symbols', and
>they must have to do some equalization & echo cancellation in order to
>work over such long lines.
Semantic nit: A MODEM is by convention a device which maps digital payload
onto an analog channel. ISDN uses a *line driver* because the channel is
already being treated as carrying a digital payload, not "analagous" to
audio waveforms as in an "alalog" POTS line.
>I'm curious as to why an ISDN box is distinct and separate from an 'analog'
>DSP-based modem. Why can't the DSP handle both kinds of operations with
>different software?
I think the Waverunner PCI card does that; you switch dongles for POTS or
ISDN and use different loadable firmware. Remember the line interface
hardware is different too, and the Waverunner uses an external NT1.
--
Fred R. Goldstein k1io fgoldstein"at"bbn.com
BBN Corp., Cambridge MA USA +1 617 873 3850
Opinions are mine alone; sharing requires permission.
Dale Frye
I've been thinking about similar things. Something at COMDEX that caught
my eye that I think would make the POTS output of a ISDN router really
usable is something called the Concero Switchboard. Basically it's a
small PBX designed for the SOHO crowd. It is a 2x4 switch that uses
regular POTS phones. Here's a pointer http://www.ctrpoint.com to their
web page. I'm still trying to talk my wife into getting a second phone
line (and then from there argue "Why not ISDN instead?") but she's
concerned about ease of use. This switch looked like it might actually
be easy enough to use so that she wouldn't freak out trying to use it.
Basically she wants the phone to act like a phone, without all the fancy
buttons and features. If anyone out there has installed one of these
things I'd love to hear about how well it works. Especially if it's
hooked to an ISDN router or TA. I need all the ammo I can get to
convince her to spend the $500 for the switch and $600 for an ISDN
router.
What I was thinking of doing was to hook all the phones on each floor to
one of the internal lines on the switch. Each line can handle 5
telphonic devices (from their spec sheets). One line would be used for
the answering machine. This would allow all the phones to ring but when
someone picked up a phone they would only use one line and free up the
other lines to handle additional incoming or outgoing calls. I would
hope that the only thing needed to place a call would be to pick up the
phone and dial. The switch should automatically give an outside line.
Dale Frye
chris...@momnet.com
I've used the Ascend P-75 to drive at least three phones (on one the
pots ports) before with no problems. Since I'm now working full-time
from my home office, I use my P-75 mostly for data now and moved on
the JetStream's Front Desk product (http://www.jetstream.com) for
handling my voice needs (not cheap, though, at about $1400, but it's a
hell of a product for the home office user).
I'd just point out that you should probably invest in a UPS to support
the ISDN router or TA as well; after all, you don't want to be without
phone service while your power is out (or while your router reboots
and reestablishes communications with the phone company because the
power blipped for less than a second).
Dale Frye <df...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>I've been thinking about similar things. Something at COMDEX that caught
>my eye that I think would make the POTS output of a ISDN router really
>usable is something called the Concero Switchboard. Basically it's a
>small PBX designed for the SOHO crowd. It is a 2x4 switch that uses
>regular POTS phones. Here's a pointer http://www.ctrpoint.com to their
>web page. I'm still trying to talk my wife into getting a second phone
<SNIP>
>Dale Frye
>
>Eric Patrizi wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
>> me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
>> of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
<SNIP>
--
Chris Resch
Cincinnati, OH
Chris...@momnet.com
Mark Cooperstein
You might consider the 3COM Impact IQ external TA. Each POTS port has a
ringer equivalence rating of 3 (meaning it can drive three analog phone
devices per port). The 3Com has excellent support for POTS, and if you want
something with router functionality so you can hook up multiple PC's, get
Wingate (www.deerfield.com) proxy server. I currently have two PC's hooked up
to one ISDN line using Wingate and my 3Com Impact IQ, an answering machine and
phone on one POTS, and a modem/fax on the other POTS. Its been working great,
and didnt cost an arm and a leg. The 3COM cost me $208.00 (US), and Wingate
is free for a two user system (one proxy user hooked up to Wingate, and one
natively connected user). The license fee to upgrade users for Wingate is
reasonable, and its pretty rock solid IMHO.
Mark
In article <33BB2D...@sprintmail.com>, df...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>I've been thinking about similar things. Something at COMDEX that caught
>my eye that I think would make the POTS output of a ISDN router really
>usable is something called the Concero Switchboard. Basically it's a
>small PBX designed for the SOHO crowd. It is a 2x4 switch that uses
>regular POTS phones. Here's a pointer http://www.ctrpoint.com to their
>web page. I'm still trying to talk my wife into getting a second phone
>line (and then from there argue "Why not ISDN instead?") but she's
>concerned about ease of use. This switch looked like it might actually
>be easy enough to use so that she wouldn't freak out trying to use it.
>Basically she wants the phone to act like a phone, without all the fancy
>buttons and features. If anyone out there has installed one of these
>things I'd love to hear about how well it works. Especially if it's
>hooked to an ISDN router or TA. I need all the ammo I can get to
>convince her to spend the $500 for the switch and $600 for an ISDN
>router.
>
>What I was thinking of doing was to hook all the phones on each floor to
>one of the internal lines on the switch. Each line can handle 5
>telphonic devices (from their spec sheets). One line would be used for
>the answering machine. This would allow all the phones to ring but when
>someone picked up a phone they would only use one line and free up the
>other lines to handle additional incoming or outgoing calls. I would
>hope that the only thing needed to place a call would be to pick up the
>phone and dial. The switch should automatically give an outside line.
>
>Dale Frye
>
>Eric Patrizi wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
>> me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog jack
>> of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
Stan Goodman
In message <hbaker-0207...@10.0.2.1> - hba...@netcom.com (Henry
Baker) writes:
:>
:>In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il
:>wrote:
:>
:>> (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and doesn't
:>> DEModulate).
:>
:>Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_ modulate and demodulate.
:>I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one of 4 'symbols', and
:>they must have to do some equalization & echo cancellation in order to
:>work over such long lines.
Actually, you are wrong. In engineering disciplines, words almost always have
meaning. The meaning of "modulate", "demodulate", and by extension "modem",
excludes the ISDN TA, for the simple reason that none of the actions you
enumerate *modulates* (see any dictionary) any characteristic of a carrier.
Stephen Baker
Stan Goodman wrote:
> In message <33B96F70...@dnaent.com> - Eric Patrizi
> <epat...@dnaent.com>Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:58:24 -0500 writes:
> :>
> :>Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would
> allow
> :>me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog
> jack
> :>of my ISDN modem....
>
> The first thing you have to do is determine how many
> ringer-equivalents you have on your analog system. Typically,
> telephone systems have been able to carry five ringer equivalents; a
> ringer equivalent is the ringer load of a single telephone, but modern
> electronic telephones do not require nearly as much juice to ring as
> the pre-electonic ones did (these often have ringer equivalents of
> about 0.1 or 0.15). Next, examine how many ringer equivalents your
> ISDN adapter will carry; you may already be home free.
I have actually done what you are considering. Of course I did not check
the ringer-equivalents before I started, but it worked out ok. I am
using a P-75 as the only interface to the telco. The documentation says,
"Whenever possible, only connect one device to each phone port. The sum
of the REN values of the devices connected to a single port should not
exceed 3". For me, it supports 4 'modern' devices (all on Cat5 wire).
There are only three problems that I have run into. The first is wanting
3 circuits. The second is the local telco's inability to get the dial
plan correct. There are neighbors that cannot call me because the telco
cannot build the circuit. They always get a busy signal. The third is
that CallerID is not propagated to the POTS lines. I have been told that
this will be fixed in a future rev of the firmware. I wait patiently to
be informed.
For SWBT there are some gotchas that the sales people will not tell you
about. My number is located in a CO two calling zones away from
neighboring POTS numbers. This means that calling next door could be a
toll call. It all depends if the receiving party has extended area
service.
Steve
David Lesher
> The first thing you have to do is determine how many
> ringer-equivalents you have on your analog system.
Nope. The first thing to check is your tariffs.
If you are in a "every call is by the minute", do not pass Go,
do not waste $200.00......
Henry Baker
In article <5pijka$4g0$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il
wrote:
You seem very prickly about this. Do you have a patent problem???
I hardly think that 'any' dictionary provide proper guidance for this. I
think that this is a technical term, and I think that there is a continuum
of meaning here.
Dan
Mike Gawdun wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jul 1997 15:58:24 -0500, Eric Patrizi <epat...@dnaent.com>
>
> wrote:
>
> >Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would
> allow
> >me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog
> jack
> >of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
>
> >ISDN modem and connect, at the demarc, my house's existing analog
> >telephone wiring to the analog port on the ISDN modem. All of the
> ISDN
> >modems I am aware of do not provide enough power on the analog ports
> to
> >drive multiple phones in multiple rooms. I wish to replace my analog
>
> >phone line with the ISDN box and drive the whole house off of one
> analog
> >port. Actually I wish to drive one analog port to one half of the
> house
> >and drive the other analog port to the other half. I am looking for
> >some device that can plug into the analog port on the ISDN modem that
>
> >would boost the drive capability to allow me to drive the current
> analog
> >telephones.
>
> So am I, and I bought a P-75 router from Ascend to be able to extend
> the analog ports to other phones in the house because I have a very
> large UPS for my PC and extra jacks to accommodate two more devices.
> Unfortunately, the analog ports on the Ascend seem to be merely
> cosmetic because they don't work very well for directly connected
> devices either. It frustrating to have a device that works great for
> the data and is a joke for the voice stuff. I am shopping around for
> other routers but am not optimistic.
>
> I don't want a terminal adapter because the connections stay up unless
>
> you manually turn them off. With a router, you can setup time
> thresholds to disconnect, dynamically add a second B-channel for file
> transfers (and then release it when file is downloaded), and the
> faster connect times.
>
> I think the router vendors need to rethink the design of the analog
> ports and beef them up quite a bit more. The tradeoff is being forced
> to have separate POTS line for all the voice lines and keep the RBOC
> coffers full with money they don't really need.
> >
Terminal adapters for home use were never designed to drive existing
analog home service.The pots ports are great for a fax machine and a
phone while your at your computer but with analog service reasonably
priced and you don't have to worry about power failures my advice is to
keep your regular service .
Helge Oldach
In <hbaker-0207...@10.0.2.1> hba...@netcom.com (Henry Baker) writes:
| In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il wrote:
| > (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and doesn't
| > DEModulate).
| Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_ modulate and demodulate.
| I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one of 4 'symbols', and
| they must have to do some equalization & echo cancellation in order to
| work over such long lines.
You're referring to an NT1 device which always (except in the U.S.) is a
distinct piece of hardware but an "ISDN adapter".
Helge
Laurence V. Marks
In <5pijka$4g0$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il (Stan Goodman) writes:
>In message <hbaker-0207...@10.0.2.1> - hba...@netcom.com (Henry
>Baker) writes:
>Actually, you are wrong. In engineering disciplines, words almost always have
>meaning. The meaning of "modulate", "demodulate", and by extension "modem",
>excludes the ISDN TA, for the simple reason that none of the actions you
>enumerate *modulates* (see any dictionary) any characteristic of a carrier.
>
was introduced in the United States, the digital pulse trains have been
referred to as Pulse Code Modulation, or PCM. (Probably named so by engineers
who were used to referring to any multiplexing of multiple signals onto a
single medium as modulation; T-carrier predecessors were Frequency Modulated.)
Since ISDN signals appear the same as PCM-encoded voice on a T-carrier
(particularly when the ISDN device is performing modem or fax emulation), it's
perfectly legitimate to call it modulation.
Laurence V. Marks
IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC
Laurence V. Marks
In <hbaker-0207...@10.0.2.1>, hba...@netcom.com (Henry Baker) writes:
>In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il
>wrote:
>
>> (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and doesn't
>> DEModulate).
>
>Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_ modulate and demodulate.
>I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one of 4 'symbols', and
>they must have to do some equalization & echo cancellation in order to
>work over such long lines.
>
who call TAs modems would even refer to an S/T interface TA that way.
However, there is historical justification for calling all of them modems,
described in another post I just made on this topic.
>I'm curious as to why an ISDN box is distinct and separate from an 'analog'
>DSP-based modem. Why can't the DSP handle both kinds of operations with
>different software?
Almost five years ago, IBM introduced the WaveRunner line of ISDN internal TAs,
built exactly that way. The only active device on the card is an Mwave DSP,
along with SRAM, and ISDN front-end. If you call an ISDN device, the DSP is
used to form PPP packets, with flags and HDLC bit-stuffing and CRC, etc. If
you call a modem or fax machine, the DSP does V.17 or V.32bis as appropriate.
Code overlays are loaded on the DSP on the fly, just as you suggest.
In fact, on incoming calls, the DSP can dynamically detect the call-type
(by Bearer Capability or DN, your choice), and load the right code.
Great if you want to run a modem/V.120 BBS (very popular in Tennessee).
These devices are still sold; see http://www.isdnwave.com/.
Laurence V. Marks
In <5pdtsn$9lf$1...@daily.bbnplanet.com>, fgoldstein@bbn.|nospam.|com (Fred R. Goldstein) writes:
>In article <hbaker-0207...@10.0.2.1>, hba...@netcom.com says...
>
>onto an analog channel. ISDN uses a *line driver* because the channel is
>already being treated as carrying a digital payload, not "analagous" to
>audio waveforms as in an "alalog" POTS line.
>
>>I'm curious as to why an ISDN box is distinct and separate from an 'analog'
>>DSP-based modem. Why can't the DSP handle both kinds of operations with
>>different software?
>
>I think the Waverunner PCI card does that; you switch dongles for POTS or
>ISDN and use different loadable firmware. Remember the line interface
>hardware is different too, and the Waverunner uses an external NT1.
Err, that's PCMCIA. PCI is the industry answer to MicroChannel.
Actually all the members of the WaveRunner family use the DSP for
formulating HDLC (PPP or V.120 or whatever) on digital connections, and for
modulating/demodulating V.32bis or V.17 or whatever if the far end target is
analog.
What distinguishes the PCMCIA unit is that not only can it do fax/modem
emulation over ISDN, but if you happen to be on the road with it, and there is
no ISDN, but there is POTS, you can switch dongles and use the POTS at V.34.
The DSP also performs V.42 error correction, and V.42bis compression. The
compression is used not only with modem connections, but also with V.120, per
the ITU recommendation.
John M. Hunt
hba...@netcom.com (Henry Baker) wrote:
>In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il
>wrote:
>
>> (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't MODulate and doesn't
>> DEModulate).
>
>Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_ modulate and demodulate.
>I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one of 4 'symbols', and
>they must have to do some equalization & echo cancellation in order to
>work over such long lines.
I think that this semantic distinction arises from the fact that an ac
carrier in not modulated in the 2B1Q encoding scheme to which you
refer. The single twisted pair line from the subscriber to the Telco
central office in ISDN installations in the US (the so-called U
interface) uses 2B1Q encoding, with two bits represented by a symbol
which has four possible voltage levels. There is no actual carrier in
this process.
The U interface certainly does us echo cancellation in an extremely
exotic manner. The seemingly impossible witchcraft of permitting a
full 64 kilobit per second channel data stream simultaneously in both
directions (full duplex) requires very sophisticated circuitry to
separate the signals but provides the very important advantage of
using the existing subscriber line installed base without requiring
two independent twisted pairs.
As far as I know, the ISDN U interface is the only instance, other
than the vastly more common simple voice audio lines from central
office to subscriber, in which bi-directional service on a single
twisted pair or physical transmission channel is or ever has been used
in the world's telephone systems. Everything else is separate
channels for each direction.
There are, of course, single channel one-way services which
essentially broadcast to a very large number of listeners. I am
referring to aviation weather teletype service, the old stock market
tickers, and news wire services like AP and Reuters.
-
-
John M. Hunt
john...@ipa.net
Keith G. Murphy
Henry Baker <hba...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<hbaker-0407...@10.0.2.1>...> > :>
> > :>In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>,
sgoo...@netvision.net.il
> > :>wrote:
> > :>
> > :>> (note: it is incorrect to call it a modem -- it doesn't
MODulate and
> doesn't
> > :>> DEModulate).
> > :>
> > :>Actually, I think that ISDN adapters technically _do_
modulate and
> demodulate.
> > :>I seem to recall that they map 2-bit sequences into one
of 4 'symbols', and
> > :>they must have to do some equalization & echo
cancellation in order to
> > :>work over such long lines.
> >
> >
almost always have
> > meaning. The meaning of "modulate", "demodulate", and by
extension "modem",
> > excludes the ISDN TA, for the simple reason that none of
the actions you
> > enumerate *modulates* (see any dictionary) any
characteristic of a carrier.
>
problem???
>
> I hardly think that 'any' dictionary provide proper guidance
for this. I
> think that this is a technical term, and I think that there
is a continuum
> of meaning here.
>
several months ago, I'll quote from "The Network Press
Encyclopedia of Networking", by Werner Feibel (2nd edition):
"A modem (from modulation-demodulation) is a communications
device that converts binary electrical signals into acoustic
signals for transmission over telephone lines and converts
these acoustic signals back into binary form at the receiving
end."
Neatly leaves out TAs.
Interestingly, his definitions of modulation and demodulation
are more general, but there's this quote from the definition of
modulation:
"For example, a modem converts a binary value (communicated as
an electrical signal) into acoustic form for transmission over
a telephone line."
"For example" there is key: the modem is a SPECIFIC CASE of
modulation-demodulation.
In other words, the word modem does come from the terms
modulation and demodulation, but is more narrowly defined to
involve binary-to/from-acoustic conversions.
Hope that sheds some light. (If you don't accept my cited
authority, all bets are off, of course!)
Chris Gray
In article <01bc8ad4$74c37e40$6564a8c0@kmurphy> "Keith G. Murphy"
<keit...@concentric.net> writes:
Funny how some topics just seem to keep popping up. As I did
several months ago, I'll quote from "The Network Press
Encyclopedia of Networking", by Werner Feibel (2nd edition):
"A modem (from modulation-demodulation) is a communications
device that converts binary electrical signals into acoustic
signals for transmission over telephone lines and converts
these acoustic signals back into binary form at the receiving
end."
So the telephone lines don't carry electrical signals, they carry
acoustic ones? Hey, that's what I thought until my mother told me
different. So I should be able to throw out my telephone and just
use a cocoa tin, right?
[...]
Hope that sheds some light. (If you don't accept my cited
authority, all bets are off, of course!)
Let's just say that I'm a little worried about Werner. ;>
--
________________________________________________________________________
Chris Gray
Daniel Kao
On 7 Jul 1997, Chris Gray wrote:
> "A modem (from modulation-demodulation) is a communications
> device that converts binary electrical signals into acoustic
> signals for transmission over telephone lines and converts
> these acoustic signals back into binary form at the receiving
> end."
>
> So the telephone lines don't carry electrical signals, they carry
> acoustic ones? Hey, that's what I thought until my mother told me
> different. So I should be able to throw out my telephone and just
> use a cocoa tin, right?
My definition of a modem was a device which converts analog signals to
digital signals and vice versa. Analog sine-waves to digital square-waves
and vice versa. I don't consider ISDN TA's to be an ISDN modem. But the
term "modem" is more of an accepted misnomer like "bps" and "baud".
Warmest Regards,
--Dan
.............................................................................
- Daniel Kao E-mail: k...@u.washington.edu
University of Washington Web: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kao
Home/VoiceMail: (360) 866-2993 Mobile/VoiceMail: (206) 605-1245
.............................................................................
Jay R. Ashworth
Daniel Kao (k...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: On 7 Jul 1997, Chris Gray wrote:
: > "A modem (from modulation-demodulation) is a communications
: > device that converts binary electrical signals into acoustic
: > signals for transmission over telephone lines and converts
: > these acoustic signals back into binary form at the receiving
: > end."
: >
: > So the telephone lines don't carry electrical signals, they carry
: > acoustic ones? Hey, that's what I thought until my mother told me
: > different. So I should be able to throw out my telephone and just
: > use a cocoa tin, right?
: My definition of a modem was a device which converts analog signals to
: digital signals and vice versa. Analog sine-waves to digital square-waves
: and vice versa. I don't consider ISDN TA's to be an ISDN modem. But the
: term "modem" is more of an accepted misnomer like "bps" and "baud".
No, Floyd...
Let's not start the "what's analog/what's digital" topic again.
:-)
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth j...@baylink.com
Member of the Technical Staff Unsolicited Commercial Emailers Sued
The Suncoast Freenet "People propose, science studies, technology
Tampa Bay, Florida conforms." -- Dr. Don Norman +1 813 790 7592
Henry Baker
In article <01bc8ad4$74c37e40$6564a8c0@kmurphy>, "Keith G. Murphy"
<keit...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Funny how some topics just seem to keep popping up. As I did
> several months ago, I'll quote from "The Network Press
> Encyclopedia of Networking", by Werner Feibel (2nd edition):
>
> "A modem (from modulation-demodulation) is a communications
> device that converts binary electrical signals into acoustic
> signals for transmission over telephone lines and converts
> these acoustic signals back into binary form at the receiving
> end."
>
> Neatly leaves out TAs.
>
> Interestingly, his definitions of modulation and demodulation
> are more general, but there's this quote from the definition of
> modulation:
>
> "For example, a modem converts a binary value (communicated as
> an electrical signal) into acoustic form for transmission over
> a telephone line."
>
> "For example" there is key: the modem is a SPECIFIC CASE of
> modulation-demodulation.
>
> In other words, the word modem does come from the terms
> modulation and demodulation, but is more narrowly defined to
> involve binary-to/from-acoustic conversions.
>
> Hope that sheds some light. (If you don't accept my cited
> authority, all bets are off, of course!)
Well, I hope any other EE's out there are also picking themselves up
off the floor after laughing so hard.
Modulation is far more generic than _acoustic_ modulation. In particular,
none of the computer modems I've seen in the past 20 years or so emit acoustic
signals that travel anywhere but to the operator's ears, unless there is
something seriously wrong with them. They
convert electrical signals in one format to electrical signals in
another format. The first format ("digital") is optimized for short-haul
trivial decoding, while the second format ("analog") is optimized for
long-haul more complex decoding. Assuming that all goes well, both formats
carry the same "information".
In fact, "electrical" isn't a necessary factor at all, and some complex
modems may have some portion of the processing in non-electrical form -- e.g.,
filters which involve acoustic waves such as SAW filters. Other comm
systems involve modulating and demodulating light beams.
Laurence V. Marks
In <33BC7DF5...@nacs.net>, Dan <f...@nacs.net> writes:
>
>Terminal adapters for home use were never designed to drive existing
>analog home service.The pots ports are great for a fax machine and a
>phone while your at your computer but with analog service reasonably
>priced and you don't have to worry about power failures my advice is to
>keep your regular service .
>
http://www.isdnwave.com) was designed to backdrive your entire house. The
first 30 pages or so of the manual are dedicated to showing you how to get
red/green (inside pair) disconnected at the demarcation point, and U-interface
on yellow/black (outside pair). Then you leave your phones plugged in, and use
a Line1/Line2 Y-jack included with the NT-1 to connect U-interface to the NT-1
and backfeed the house.
Its lead-acid gell cell is designed to power the NT-1 and the attached POTS
phones for up to 18 hours with no phone usage, going down to six hours with
continuous phone usage. I don't believe I have ever heard a customer complain
about not being able to ring a number of phones with it.
Aubrey
In article <5q9c13$402$4...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, lma...@vnet.ibm.com says...
>
>In <33BC7DF5...@nacs.net>, Dan <f...@nacs.net> writes:
>>
>Some were; some weren't. The WaveRunner NT-1 (formerly 7845 NT-1, see
>http://www.isdnwave.com) was designed to backdrive your entire house. The
>
>IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC
>
>
This web page clearly mentions OS/2 compatable drivers, yet is strangely
silent regarding NT. Do NT drivers exist?
--
A prudent parent neither ignores nor disturbs suprisingly quiet children.
1-512-374-0144 (d) \0145 (v) / isdn:Guest / BitSurfr
Try to connect, report what happens...
W. R. Stewart
>Does anyone know where I can find a piece of hardware that would allow
>me to drive my house's existing analog phone wiring from the analog
jack
>of my ISDN modem. Assume I am going to bring in the ISDN line to the
>ISDN modem and connect, at the demarc, my house's existing analog
>telephone wiring to the analog port on the ISDN modem. All of the ISDN
>modems I am aware of do not provide enough power on the analog ports to
>drive multiple phones in multiple rooms. I wish to replace my analog
>phone line with the ISDN box and drive the whole house off of one
analog
>port. Actually I wish to drive one analog port to one half of the
house
>and drive the other analog port to the other half. I am looking for
>some device that can plug into the analog port on the ISDN modem that
>would boost the drive capability to allow me to drive the current
analog
>telephones.
I'm in a similar situation, though I am going to be in a
grid-interactive solar photovoltaic home, where all electrical use is
minimized as much as possible to acheive a zero-balance electrical
energy consumption. The reason I'm mentioning this is because my
computer will only be on when in use. Is there a TA that can operate
the voice lines easily enough so that my wife doesn't fret about
complexity or line quality, and still operate with the computer off?
BTW, we have a cell phone and will have power backup in the form of a
battery bank, so power outages are not a problem.
Thanks,
Will Stewart
AcromaTech Group, Inc
http://www.patriot.net/users/wstewart/first.htm
Al Varney
In article <33bfc10f...@news.ipa.net>,
John M. Hunt <john...@ipa.net> wrote:
>hba...@netcom.com (Henry Baker) wrote:
>>In article <5pcvr9$8kq$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il
>>wrote:
>As far as I know, the ISDN U interface is the only instance, other
>than the vastly more common simple voice audio lines from central
>office to subscriber, in which bi-directional service on a single
>twisted pair or physical transmission channel is or ever has been used
>in the world's telephone systems. Everything else is separate
>channels for each direction.
Well, almost. Before digital loop carrier (a DLC like SLC(tm)-96),
before SLM (an early 80-subscriber-to-24-channels DLC using delta modulation),
before SLC-40 (a non-concentrated DLC using T1 to carry 40 full-time
voice channels), there was ANALOG LOOP CARRIER. Guess what? Many of
those systems (like the SLC-1) provided a second line over the existing
single pair. The SLC-1 provided two lines over 1 pair up to 18000 feet.
[Like the U-interface, it couldn't stand loaded lines.] It used simple
frequency-division multiplexing for one line over the the other line's
baseband operation.
Al Varney
Al Varney
In article <5pmq0d$1b3s$4...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>,
Laurence V. Marks <lma...@vnet.ibm.com> wrote:
>In <5pijka$4g0$1...@news.NetVision.net.il>, sgoo...@netvision.net.il (Stan Goodman) writes:
>>Baker) writes:
>>Actually, you are wrong. In engineering disciplines, words almost always have
>>meaning. The meaning of "modulate", "demodulate", and by extension "modem",
>>excludes the ISDN TA, for the simple reason that none of the actions you
>>enumerate *modulates* (see any dictionary) any characteristic of a carrier.
>>
>was introduced in the United States, the digital pulse trains have been
>referred to as Pulse Code Modulation, or PCM. (Probably named so by engineers
>who were used to referring to any multiplexing of multiple signals onto a
>single medium as modulation; T-carrier predecessors were Frequency Modulated.)
Based on BSTJ documentation, I assure you the Bell System engineers
involved in PCM did not confuse modulation and multiplexing. Modulation
could occur as a means of enabling multiplexing (as when single-sideband
modulation is used to convert voice-band to sideband and then modulate a
particular carrier frequency in frequency-division multiplexing).
Or to transmit a multiplexed signal (as when frequency modulation [FM]
is used to convert a 3 MHz FDM signal to 6 GHz for microwave transmission
-- the 3 MHz ANALOG signal FM modulates the 6 GHz carrier). Or as a means
of transmitting baseband digital data over analog channels (QAM and FSK).
Or as a means of sending voice over digital channels (PCM, Delta modulation
and phase-shift keying for PCM over microwave).
For PCM in particular, the "modulation" refers to the conversion of
analog baseband signals to digital signals -- in this case, a binary
representation of the voice samples. Other such sampling schemes use PAM
(pulse amplitude modulation) and PPM (pulse position modulation), etc.,
neither of which need to convert voltage to a binary code. The ability
to multiplex PCM is NOT a part of PCM (it's time-division multiplexing).
So even here, the modulation (converting baseband/low-frequency analog
to digital) is not multiplexing (time-division merging of channels).
>Since ISDN signals appear the same as PCM-encoded voice on a T-carrier
>(particularly when the ISDN device is performing modem or fax emulation), it's
>perfectly legitimate to call it modulation.
ISDN signals appear as 8-bit fields on a T-carrier. Sending digital
data end-to-end through a typical digital transmission system does NOT
involve PCM. It MIGHT involve modulation, if the transmission system
had to convert digital to 11 GHz for microwave, for example. But the
modulation on ISDN typically only occurs when converting analog voice
to PCM in an ISDN telephone, TA-with-POTS-ports or NT1-with-POTS-ports.
Or in a computer with a sound board. Is a sound board a modem when it's
handling PCM?
(I DON'T want to extend the "what's a modem" thread. I've defended
the meaning of Modulation, not MODEM.)
Al Varney - just my opinion
Laurence V. Marks
In <7d7cd$a2fc...@vima.austin.tx.us>, mcin...@vima.austin.tx.us (Aubrey) writes:
>In article <5q9c13$402$4...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, lma...@vnet.ibm.com says...
>>
>>In <33BC7DF5...@nacs.net>, Dan <f...@nacs.net> writes:
>>>
>>Some were; some weren't. The WaveRunner NT-1 (formerly 7845 NT-1, see
>>http://www.isdnwave.com) was designed to backdrive your entire house. The
>>
>>Laurence V. Marks
>>IBM Corp. - Research Triangle Park, NC
>>
>>
>
>This web page clearly mentions OS/2 compatable drivers, yet is strangely
>silent regarding NT. Do NT drivers exist?
>
The NT-1, about which I was writing, is entirely OS-independent, and is
programmed only via a POTS phone.
The same web page carries information regarding the WaveRunner ISDN TAs
(internal cards for ISA, Microchannel, and PCMCIA), which do require drivers.
Drivers are available for Win 3.1, Win 95, and OS/2. Win NT Drivers are in
progress.
Aubrey, I can't tell whether your question was about the NT-1 or the TA.
David Lesher
var...@ihgp2.ih.lucent.com (Al Varney) writes:
> Well, almost. Before digital loop carrier (a DLC like SLC(tm)-96),
>before SLM (an early 80-subscriber-to-24-channels DLC using delta modulation),
>before SLC-40 (a non-concentrated DLC using T1 to carry 40 full-time
>voice channels), there was ANALOG LOOP CARRIER.
Jeeze Al... I suppose you are the type guy that says
"Beetle_[liquid] three times, too....
Did you HAVE the mention this particular form of subscriber torture?
My fear is some MBA @ Titantic will be reading this and say "Wow,
we can save a nickle with this..."
In rural and I mean rural, Wisc 15 years ago, I needed 4-wire 1200
bps leased line multipoint. "Gee, no GTE", bumped a bunch of farmers
up onto ALC to get up copper. We sure heard about THAT......
Aubrey
In article <5qrnan$16g2$2...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, lma...@vnet.ibm.com
says...
>
>The NT-1, about which I was writing, is entirely OS-independent, and is
>programmed only via a POTS phone.
>
>The same web page carries information regarding the WaveRunner ISDN TAs
>(internal cards for ISA, Microchannel, and PCMCIA), which do require drivers.
>Drivers are available for Win 3.1, Win 95, and OS/2. Win NT Drivers are in
>progress.
>
>Aubrey, I can't tell whether your question was about the NT-1 or the TA.
>
I'm interested in an NT1, POTS for the house, and a TA for the computer.
Have a BitSurfr, but a new roommate suggests the idea of a NT1, additional
directory numbers, and ISDN phone.
stj...@topnet.net
In Article<7157cd$b21b...@vima.austin.tx.us>, <mcin...@vima.austin.tx.us>
writes:
> I'm interested in an NT1, POTS for the house, and a TA for the computer.
> Have a BitSurfr, but a new roommate suggests the idea of a NT1, additional
> directory numbers, and ISDN phone.
>
> --
That's definitely the way to go and IS doable. Make sure the line is
provisioned for multiple call appearance so that while you are on the
computer, your roommate can receive calls on the ISDN phone. You should be
able to provision the line so that he can get his own phone number.
Michael
Laurence V. Marks
In <7157cd$b21b...@vima.austin.tx.us>, mcin...@vima.austin.tx.us (Aubrey) writes:
>In article <5qrnan$16g2$2...@rtpnews.raleigh.ibm.com>, lma...@vnet.ibm.com
>says...
>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Have a BitSurfr, but a new roommate suggests the idea of a NT1, additional
>directory numbers, and ISDN phone.
>
Well, as noted, the NT-1 + POTS is OS-independent. The TAs are not.
Be careful what you design, if you are served by a DMS-100 switch. Unlike all
the real ISDN switches, the DMS-100 will only let two TEs hang on the line at
once, and the POTS port counts as one. If you want to use two computers, or
one computer at 128K, it's not enough to just not be using the POTS port, you
have to disable it (by dialing *#0 on any attached POTS phone), and re-enable
it afterwards (by dialing *#9).
Patrick Arnoux
Laurence V. Marks (lma...@vnet.ibm.com) wrote:
: Be careful what you design, if you are served by a DMS-100 switch. Unlike all
: once, and the POTS port counts as one. If you want to use two computers, or
: one computer at 128K, it's not enough to just not be using the POTS port, you
: have to disable it (by dialing *#0 on any attached POTS phone), and re-enable
: it afterwards (by dialing *#9).
Is there any way to find out what kind of switch hangs off the other end
of the line ?. i.e. DMS, ESS. Or does the 7845 need to be told the switch
is an ESS-5 instead of NI-1 ? and thereby have access to the second B
channel without having to disable/enable it on the 7845.
Thanks
Patrick Arnoux
David Lesher
par...@access4.digex.net (Patrick Arnoux) writes:
>Is there any way to find out what kind of switch hangs off the other end
>of the line ?. i.e. DMS, ESS.
Yes. Obvious is to ask the RBOC. There's also a test with
when dialtone breaks while dialing. Fred?
>Or does the 7845 need to be told the switch
>is an ESS-5 instead of NI-1 ?
No.
Fred R. Goldstein
In article <wb8fozEE...@netcom.com>, wb8...@netcom.com says...
>Yes. Obvious is to ask the RBOC. There's also a test with
>when dialtone breaks while dialing. Fred?
On an analog line, a DMS100 breaks dialtone after you release the first
digit, while the 5E breaks dialtone shortly into the first digit.
But your telco usually will tell you if you say you're contemplating ISDN.
--
Fred R. Goldstein k1io fgoldstein"at"bbn.com
BBN Corp., Cambridge MA USA +1 617 873 3850
Opinions are mine alone; sharing requires permission.
Patrick Arnoux
Fred R. Goldstein (fgoldstein@bbn.|nospam.|com) wrote:
: In article <wb8fozEE...@netcom.com>, wb8...@netcom.com says...
:
: >Yes. Obvious is to ask the RBOC. There's also a test with
: >when dialtone breaks while dialing. Fred?
:
: On an analog line, a DMS100 breaks dialtone after you release the first
: digit, while the 5E breaks dialtone shortly into the first digit.
:
: But your telco usually will tell you if you say you're contemplating ISDN.
: --
Thanks, but I seem to have conflicting information:
a) I was told that in NYC all switches are ESSs.
b) My POTS and ISDN lines are on different exchanges, but the analog line
will break dialtone into the first digit. ESS??
c) I can't bring up the second B channel unless I disable the POTS port
on the 7845. DMS??
Should I just conclude, in view of c) above the switch must be a DMS ?
Any Ideas ? Or is there any way to discern the switch by looking at the
Q921/Q931 debug info?
Would appreciate any and all inputs.
Thanks again
Patrick Arnoux
David Lesher
par...@access4.digex.net (Patrick Arnoux) writes:
>Thanks, but I seem to have conflicting information:
> a) I was told that in NYC all switches are ESSs.
Could be...
> b) My POTS and ISDN lines are on different exchanges, but the analog line
> will break dialtone into the first digit. ESS??
Only the 5ESS hosts ISDN. NoNuts has many 1AESS's -- analog switches
with digital controls.
> c) I can't bring up the second B channel unless I disable the POTS port
> on the 7845. DMS??
Not necessarily. You need three SPIDs. On a DMS, you can not get
same. On a 5E, you gotta ask/pay/bluster NoNuts to get same.
Patrick Arnoux
David Lesher (wb8...@netcom.com) wrote:
: > c) I can't bring up the second B channel unless I disable the POTS port
: > on the 7845. DMS??
:
: Not necessarily. You need three SPIDs. On a DMS, you can not get
: same. On a 5E, you gotta ask/pay/bluster NoNuts to get same.
: --
AAaaahhhhhh! Says he, as the light slowly glows brighter.
Thank You
Patrick Arnoux
David Lesher
lma...@vnet.ibm.com (Laurence V. Marks) writes:
>You would normally think that if you ordered a third SPID, that they would
>automatically set MTERM (Maximum number of concurrent TERMinals) appropriately,
>but we have seen instances where this was not the case. Took a long time to
>figure out, too.
You can say THAT again.....
It took MAJOR bitching at Bell Awful to even get them
to admit there was such a parameter, much less change same.
Laurence V. Marks
In <5ri1jj$ntr$1...@news2.digex.net>, par...@access4.digex.net (Patrick Arnoux) writes:
>:
>Is there any way to find out what kind of switch hangs off the other end
>is an ESS-5 instead of NI-1 ? and thereby have access to the second B
>channel without having to disable/enable it on the 7845.
>
to lie. Regardless of which switch you tell the 7845 it is connected to, about
two minutes after the third TE comes on line (e.g., the POTS port is active and
you bring up a TE with two B-channels), the DMS-100 will deactivate one TEI--
usually the 7845's port--and not reactivate it. The symptom is that the 7845
POTS port cannot make outgoing calls and will not make incoming calls until
it's reset.
This isn't a 7845 flaw; it's a shortcoming of the DMS-100.
Laurence V. Marks
In <5rouu2$n3h$1...@news2.digex.net>, par...@access4.digex.net (Patrick Arnoux) writes:
>: Not necessarily. You need three SPIDs. On a DMS, you can not get
>: same. On a 5E, you gotta ask/pay/bluster NoNuts to get same.
>: --
>
That's not all. It should be automatic, but you also need to have a 5ESS
parameter called MTERM set to a number higher than two. Three would work, but
you could set any number up through eight. I don't think there's a charge for
it.
You would normally think that if you ordered a third SPID, that they would
automatically set MTERM (Maximum number of concurrent TERMinals) appropriately,
but we have seen instances where this was not the case. Took a long time to
figure out, too.
Laurence V. Marks
David Lesher
lma...@vnet.ibm.com (Laurence V. Marks) writes:
>simply ask for a printout of your current provisioning to be
>made, directly from the switch console, and faxed to you.
Bell Titanic claims the printout is proprietary.
Yes, we both know it's BS.
My solution is the phone # for the Tier II Support Guru.....
Laurence V. Marks
In <wb8fozEE...@netcom.com>, wb8...@netcom.com (David Lesher) writes:
>lma...@vnet.ibm.com (Laurence V. Marks) writes:
>
>to admit there was such a parameter, much less change same.
>
getting provisioning straightened out, and believe there is a communication
problem between you and the guy who actually puts parameters into the switch
(e.g., three service reps in between), then simply ask for a printout of your
you.