Sybrand Bakker
Neil Garner
My suspicion that using a newsgroup with highly educated/experienced
boffins, who look down on us mere mortals/learners/beginners with the
contempt, we obviously deserve, has once again been thoroughly confirmed.
Hth,
Norman Dunbar
Just a tad unkind.
Sybrand, like the rest of us, help out voluntarily.
He answers a whole load of queries on this NG, sometimes over and over
and over again - because people don't seem to want to check out the
archives, first - understandable when in a fix, but ...
And time and time again, someone asks a question which is specific to a
version of Oracle. Whoever answers the question needs to know the
version.
And time and time again, no error messages are posted, we get something
like 'blah doesn't work' - not much use to anyone that.
So eventually, the responders on this list get a bit/a lot/seriously
p*ss*d off and growl.
Some more than others.
Sybrand is highly respected amongst us regulars and has a very high
understanding of Oracle. If you want answers, give the correct info up
front when you ask, and at least try to find out if it has been answered
before.
Cheers,
Norman.
PS. I'm not a boffin !
I too am a mere mortal - compared with most of the 'big guns' on this
list.
I try to be helpful - but the quality of the reply is directly
proportional to the quality of the input information.
If I post a stupid question - that has been answered before - I expect a
bollocking.
It's not easy being a DBA.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Norman Dunbar EMail: Norman...@LFS.co.uk
Database/Unix administrator Phone: 0113 289 6265
Fax: 0113 289 3146
Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Michael G. Schneider
news:E2F6A70FE45242488C8...@lnewton.leeds.lfs.co.uk...
> He answers a whole load of queries on this NG, sometimes over and over
> and over again - because people don't seem to want to check out the
> archives, first - understandable when in a fix, but ...
How about simply ignoring those questions? There is no need to jump on each
and every question and get offending, if you can't stand it.
Michael G. Schneider
Greg Teets
You've hit on my thoughts exactly. If somebody doesn't want to answer
the question, he shouldn't,
However, a whole lot of Sybrand's replies sound like he is jumping on
the new guys. If a new person gets flamed right out of the box, it
would be kind of sad if he didn't come back because of it.
The group exists to help people. If people can't help them without
getting worked up, the "helpers" should find a new hobby.
Thanks.
Jason
disagree with greg and (here's a big surprise) michael. i say kudos to
norman for his well written, thoughtful commentary. all i have to add is if
you look at the original poster's question it is clear that he did
absolutely zero work on his own before posting the question. i mean, how
long do you have to spend on oracle's website before you find references to
the command line imp/exp programs? he didn't even know they EXIST let alone
how to use them.
furthermore, Sybrand answered the question! he didn't just flame the guy
and tell him to screw off. he answered the question and then he added a
very justifiable remark about how frustrating it is when so-called technical
people are often helpless without a big obnoxious GUI blinking the answer at
them in GIANT red letters.
while the poster did admit he's a newbie, he also implied that he is
responsible for 2 production oracle databases (unless he was posting on
someone else's behalf?!)... all i can say to that is heaven help the comany!
as for your comment that 'it would be kind of sad if he didn't come back
because of it'... you've got it backwards. this group may exist to help
people, but as the saying goes... the lord (and many mere mortals in this ng
too) helps those that help themselves. i can understand someone saying "i
can't find this in the manual..." or "where do i even find the manual?" but
when what they want to know is a topic discussed at length in all the online
docs they clearly haven't done their homework before asking for the extra
help that cannot be found in any book but which exists in the minds of those
with many years of hands on experience and is so generously offered here
when the poster demonstrates at least a modicum of effort.
what would be be truly sad, is if sybrand (or others of his ilk) were to
stop participating in these groups because of posters like this one. greg
goes so far as to suggest it as a viable alternative... while i think it's
the worst possible outcome. i'm continually amazed at the lengths to which
the respondents will go to help those of us with less knowledge/experience.
we should all be encouraging and considerate of their generosity.... and if
you aren't willing to eat a little crow when it's due, you're the one who
needs to find another hobby.
p.s. any reference to deities is purely for dramatic/comic effect and in
no way relates to the religious (dis)beliefs of the author.
"Greg Teets" <gte...@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3bdda80b...@news-server.cinci.rr.com...
jane
How does one access the archives ?
"Michael G. Schneider" <m...@mgs-software.de> wrote in message
news:9rk8v0$dco$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
Howard J. Rogers
Click the Groups link.
Click the Advanced Group Search link.
Enter comp.oracle.databases.server in the Newsgroup field.
Make a wild stab in the dark about the subject.
Click the Google Search button when ready.
Regards
HJR
--
Oracle Resources : http://www.geocities.com/howardjr2000
========================================
"jane" <jan...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:0ZmD7.41857$C7.12...@news02.optonline.net...
Sybrand Bakker
[snip]
>furthermore, Sybrand answered the question! he didn't just flame the guy
>and tell him to screw off. he answered the question and then he added a
>very justifiable remark about how frustrating it is when so-called technical
>people are often helpless without a big obnoxious GUI blinking the answer at
>them in GIANT red letters.
>
[snip]>
>what would be be truly sad, is if sybrand (or others of his ilk) were to
>stop participating in these groups because of posters like this one. greg
>goes so far as to suggest it as a viable alternative... while i think it's
>the worst possible outcome.
[snip]
That's exactly what I am now considering to do: to unsubscribe
completely, especially after the hostile comments of Michael
Schneider, and Greg Teets.
Comments like this would have been somewhat more justified if
*everyone* took their fair share responding to these FAQs.
Usually, I leave them rest for a while, and I try to respond only when
I see *they are not being answered at all*
If people would have me go, that's fine with me, I'm really not
waiting for answering the same old questions over and over again.
Aren't there FAQ resources enough? There shouldn't be a need for
anyone answering those boring questions.
Regards
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
Roel Toledo
I agree.
Realistically, nobody can stop a newbie from being lazy and whip his
questions right away without doing his own research. I know this is
frustrating for some people who hate to repeat an answer but you can't
forever say "This question has been answered many times already." If you
do, you will spend a great deal of your time, writing that statement over
and over to every newcomer who asks without looking at the archives. That's
what Sybrand is doing and he is wasting his own time by acting like a
policeman of this NG who scolds every newcomer who violates the so-called
rules. It is a totally futile effort on his part.
I believe the NG serves a dual purpose of being a venue for raising
questions and the unobvious but great purpose of being a venue for anybody
to become a teacher or a mentor. Being a teacher or mentor is a fulfilling
thing to a lot of people. I can't remember the exact words but there is a
dictum that says, one can only consider himself a truly learned person if he
can teach what he knows.
So if one is tired of repeating himself when somebody is asking about a
topic that has been answered in the past, he simply does not have to answer
and let somebody else do the task of being mentor or a teacher this time.
Roel
Howard J. Rogers
and down on people, if only to teach them that DBAing is not a walk in the
park, and that they must start to think for themselves.
I remember a training course where I asked 'what do you think will happen
if...', and one of the students piped up with 'can't you just tell us?'. To
which the obvious rejoinder was 'of course I can, but one day I won't be
there, and you'll need to think things out for yourself'. Actually, I
wasn't quite that polite, since I can't stand intellectual laziness like
that.
Sybrand rarely just yells at newbie posters, but points out that there are
methods and techniques for finding out the answers. That's a valid teaching
and mentoring exercise. He also then often includes the answer, for good
measure.
So, no, nobody can stop a newbie being lazy. But there's validity in trying
to get a newbie to think and act like an oldbie.
Regards
HJR
--
Oracle Resources : http://www.geocities.com/howardjr2000
========================================
"Roel Toledo" <dontsend...@bogusmail.com> wrote in message
news:JArD7.89822$WW.49...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Nuno Souto
frowned, dipped a thumb in soot and doodled:
>
>If people would have me go, that's fine with me, I'm really not
>waiting for answering the same old questions over and over again.
Please, Sy. Stay. Your contributions are much appreciated, even if
many people don't take the time to say so.
>Aren't there FAQ resources enough? There shouldn't be a need for
>anyone answering those boring questions.
>
I'd propose the example of another NG that I frequent: a "FAQ
location" post is sent EVERY week, by a volunteer or anyone who
notices it hasn't been done. All it needs is a standard place to keep
it and a few volunteers to send a post once a week. Not much to ask.
It works, and works good.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
nso...@optushome.com.au.nospam
S ICM
think of this:
There is a question and an oldbie doesn't know the answer.
What can the reason be:
1. He is an oldbie and doesn't know the newbie technologie
2. He has lost is ability to ask questions and he has lost his
ability to make errors.
I think the most important thing is, that you can ask questions.
If you answer in such a discouraging way, it is not a good
way to act, because you tell somebody to stop asking questions.
If you focus your mind on the questions arising in that
special technology you will find out the weakness of that
(oracle) technology. Than you can do a better job.
:-)
Just do it.
Volker
Roel Toledo
"Howard J. Rogers" <howa...@www.com> wrote in message
news:3bde4967$0$21541$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Teachers aren't just nice people, but. There is a valid role for jumping
up
> and down on people, if only to teach them that DBAing is not a walk in the
> park, and that they must start to think for themselves.
>
> I remember a training course where I asked 'what do you think will happen
> if...', and one of the students piped up with 'can't you just tell us?'.
To
> which the obvious rejoinder was 'of course I can, but one day I won't be
> there, and you'll need to think things out for yourself'. Actually, I
> wasn't quite that polite, since I can't stand intellectual laziness like
> that.
>
> Sybrand rarely just yells at newbie posters, but points out that there are
> methods and techniques for finding out the answers. That's a valid
teaching
> and mentoring exercise. He also then often includes the answer, for good
> measure.
>
> So, no, nobody can stop a newbie being lazy. But there's validity in
trying
> to get a newbie to think and act like an oldbie.
>
> Regards
> HJR
If you work as professional instructor probably in a classroom setup, you
have a direct responsibility for your student's learning therefore you maybe
"licensed" to be impolite if only to teach them that DBAing is not a walk in
the park. You are paid to teach the class therefore it is only fair that
you would be motivated to employ whatever learning methods and techniques
that you deem necessary.
However in teaching somebody on a newsgroup, do you really have the same
"license" to be stern or to yell (as you put it) at somebody you profess to
teach? I don't think so. In as much as Sybrand does not have direct
responsibility over the other poster's learning, his motivation for the way
he behaves towards newbies still puzzles me.
Roel
Norman Dunbar
I think because if everyone here did that, the NG would be full of
questions like 'I posted a query here 5 times today and no-one answered
- arn't you interested in helping me?'
I've seen it over on the C++ NGs that I lurk on.
Regards, Norman.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Norman Dunbar EMail: Norman...@LFS.co.uk
Database/Unix administrator Phone: 0113 289 6265
Fax: 0113 289 3146
Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael G. Schneider [mailto:m...@mgs-software.de]
Posted At: Monday, October 29, 2001 7:11 PM
Posted To: server
Conversation: Sybrand Bakker
George Barbour
shouting.
In newsgroups it is considered rude to ask a question without researching it
first,:-
in this group .....say :-
a) Your own Oracle documentation. (RTFM "Read The '*fine*' Manual").
b) The Google search area.
c) The previous live threads.
Metalink, for those who have access to it, is also pretty good.
Sybrand merely vocalises this, some one should, some one needs to.
There are world experts in this group I for one do not want anybody,
especially someone as knowledgeable as Sybrand castigated for pointing out
the wurd of the group to beginners.
George Barbour.
"Neil Garner" <J...@garner21.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9rgovd$edi$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Jim Kennedy
answers on a platter without some effort on the posters part. The search
for an answer has its own benefits. There is no benefit to the poster to
answer a question that they have not tried to first find the answer to. The
mere process of looking in the manuals or this NG for the answer is a
benefit to the poster even if they don't find the answer. Given the
complexity of the product it is quite possible that they will learn
something else besides what they were looking for. If nothing else they
gain familiarity with the structure of the documentation! I abhor the lazy
post which usually looks like : "MS SQLServer/Access does... How do I do ...
in Oracle?" Look at Thomas Kyte's site or his answers they basically are
structured in most cases around the scientific method; in a subtle way
pointing out "Why not try to dream up an example and see how it works?
Poke the software and see how it reacts.".
I would much prefer it if people put in their postings (when they are
searching for answers), I am trying to do X. I looked in the Blah Blah
manual at this and that and did not see anything on it. Also I searched the
newsgroup for x and y and still no joy. Any ideas. At least it shows your
trying to help yourself. For those who want to not make an effort to help
themselves there is always consulting...(they can pay for it)
Jim
"George Barbour" <gbar...@csc.com> wrote in message
news:3bde...@pull.gecm.com...
Michael G. Schneider
news:dcyD7.775$Fm5.3...@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com...
> I agree with George. I don't think the purpose of a NG is to hand out
> answers on a platter without some effort on the posters part. The search
> for an answer has its own benefits.
I totally agree with your statements. Not only those 3 lines that I copied
above.
However they do not allow, how the original poster has been treated. If
somebody gets told...
>>>
My suspicion that using a GUI interface destroys grey cells has now been
thoroughly confirmed.
<<<
which I would translate to "you are an idiot", this is not the way people
should be treated in a newsgroup. If somebody asks a silly question, and I
have the impression that he is just a little bit too lazy for finding the
answer himself, I will simply go to the next question.
Michael G. Schneider
Roel Toledo
> Sybrand merely vocalises this, some one should, some one needs to.
> There are world experts in this group I for one do not want anybody,
> especially someone as knowledgeable as Sybrand castigated for pointing out
> the wurd of the group to beginners.
I agree but I pity the newbies either for being castigated for acting the
way they would. Remember that they are newbies -- they are bound to commit
mistakes; they don't know where to look for previous discussions; they don't
know how to phrase their questions; they do not know the structure of the
documention or manual and they surely would ask stupid questions. But I
tend to be forgiving. Great DBA's do not bark nor frown at them at every
mistake they make.
Roel
Sybrand Bakker
You seem to be incapable of understanding my irony.
I frequently notice people do not learn a programming language anymore,
whether it be Visual Basic, or PL/SQL or SQL, or whatever, they only know
where to click.
That's bad because educated that way, they frequently also didn't learn to
program and to think logical.
You can guess who, in my case, is cleaning out the messes resulting from
that.
I think that is frustrating because those people also frequently think
programming is below their status, and they want to quit their job as soon
as possible to become Project Manager (anything that buys them a bigger car)
The OP clearly demonstrates this attitude: if there is no button for
something, he simply can't find it.
This is why I made the remark 'using a GUI destroys grey cells' (or makes
people lazy). I never intended to pun down the OP as an idiot.
If you can't understand my irony, there are two choices for both us:
either we both unsubscribe, or we put each other both in our respective kill
filter.
However I think you will be constantly at war here with every experienced
Oracle DBA (in your terms 'more than 5 years', for me more than 12)
Your choice...
Regards,
--
Sybrand Bakker
Senior Oracle DBA
to reply remove '-verwijderdit' from my e-mail address
Michael G. Schneider
news:tttglh7...@corp.supernews.com...
> You seem to be incapable of understanding my irony.
That is absolutely correct. Obviously neither me nor the original poster did
regard this as irony. And I still cannot understand it as such.
> I frequently notice people do not learn a programming language anymore,
> whether it be Visual Basic, or PL/SQL or SQL, or whatever, they only know
> where to click.
> [snipped]
Are you in any way frustrated by your job?
> If you can't understand my irony, there are two choices for both us:
> either we both unsubscribe, or we put each other both in our respective
kill
> filter.
I won't do anything from this. Actually I have never put anybody into a kill
file. I think this plonking is mad.
thinking ... maybe "plonking" is just a German short cut. I just do not
know. Here it means "putting into the kill file".
> However I think you will be constantly at war here with every
experienced
> Oracle DBA (in your terms 'more than 5 years', for me more than 12)
I am absolutely able to discuss even a long thread with patience. I have no
"bad emotions" about anybody here. This has been a duel with words, but no
war.
I did learn a lot, and I hope one or two of the other readers can also say
the same.
Michael G. Schneider
Mark Styles
<pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote:
>That's exactly what I am now considering to do: to unsubscribe
>completely, especially after the hostile comments of Michael
>Schneider, and Greg Teets.
I would say stay, you seem to be a valuable asset to the community,
but be careful with the flames. You flamed me a while ago for posting
what seemed to you to be a common question, however the eventual
solution had nothing to do with the answer you provided.
>Comments like this would have been somewhat more justified if
>*everyone* took their fair share responding to these FAQs.
Usually by the time I get to a question, it's already been answered by
you or someone else. If I do happen to find an unanswered question
that I can answer, then I will do so.
timkarnold
Tone down the attitude.
We are all in this together.
If you ever notice Thomas Kyte is never condescending, yet he always points
you the right direction.
Best,
Tim
"Sybrand Bakker" <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:tttglh7...@corp.supernews.com...
Nuno Souto
>"Sybrand Bakker" <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>news:tttglh7...@corp.supernews.com...
>
OK, you 2:
Agree to disagree and let's move on.
:-)
Just my (devalued) $0.02.
Cheers
Nuno Souto
nso...@optushome.com.au.nospam
Chris Boyle
offense if I skipped anybody) have all proven to be fantastic resources.
Occasionally yes, you will get a terse answer suggesting you might RTFM for
basic questions, but I have seen nothing but helpful responses when a person
has put forth some effort on their part to at least understand the question
they are asking. No one is being forced to contribute but these very
talented people are willing to help out others with less or different
experience. I have not seen any evidence of a prima donna complex, no one
comes across as treating you like a silly newbie if you show evidence of
some effort. They are not here to provide a free consulting service, the
focus is more on educating. As a matter of fact, I have included some of
these people in interview questions for developers. I ask where would you
find Sybrand, Howard, Tom... if you needed assistance. I want to know that
the person has enough of an interest in their work to want to keep expanding
their knowledge. If they aren't browsing the newsgroups these names won't
mean much to them, but if they do know, I count it as a plus. I know I
have been able to learn a great deal from reading their replies, even if it
doesn't relate to a problem I currently have. I have, more than once,
impressed my boss with knowledge I got from the newsgroups. I have also
learned that I should not post a question that is covered on page 2 of the
oracle documentation or ask a question without providing a platform and
version. Having gone through the material for 9i I was amazed at all the
changes that were made. Version 8 doesn't have Java support while 8i does.
There are so many differences that most of the answers will be version
specific (even to what is supported in SQL i.e. CASE, WITH). Miss Cleo
isn't posting on this board so unless the version is stated, no one can tell
which answer is needed. (oh the number of post I have seen asking how to
set up utl_ftp on a 7.3 or 8.0 instance). If you aren't willing to put
forth at least a little bit of effort you shouldn't be surprised or offended
by the type of response you get.
Norman Dunbar <Norman...@lfs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:E2F6A70FE45242488C8...@lnewton.leeds.lfs.co.uk...
koert54
newsgroup boys & girls - have some fun in life - or get a life
koert
"Roel Toledo" <dontsend...@bogusmail.com> wrote in message
news:REyD7.148122$3d2.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
FaheemRao
they should not be treated the way Sybrand treats them. If somebody
do not like the post, simply dont answer that.
Faheem Rao
"Jim Kennedy" <kennedy...@home.com> wrote in message news:<dcyD7.775$Fm5.3...@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>...
Neil Garner
likes being made a fool/idiot of in a public NG. To put the record straight
I thought I'd asked a legitimate question, and I had/have made every effort
to find the answer in books and other sources. As I stated in my original
post I am new to Oracle, and I thought this might cut me some slack. I
wasn't expecting a text book answer just a point in the right direction. I
have a great deal of respect for people with knowledge and experience, and
I'd like to think that if I was in that position that I would make every
effort to help someone out.
"Mark Styles" <ne...@lambic.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1oltttkm92e13uuf0...@4ax.com...
Schemrooster
When someone is answering 290 messages (just counted) that *is* his life. I
don't know anyone that patient to answer (sometimes totally trivial)
questions that much.
I'm glad that there are people on the *net willing to help others, that
saved me a lot of headache in the past.
Sybrand, keep up the good work. You're much appreciated among us *newbies*.
Newbie
"koert54" <koe...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:nqED7.2792$vL2...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
Howard J. Rogers
HJR
--
Oracle Resources : http://www.geocities.com/howardjr2000
========================================
"Roel Toledo" <dontsend...@bogusmail.com> wrote in message
news:2KtD7.89850$WW.49...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Crikey! People pay money to have me be impolite to them??? The idea I
like!!! But it's not that really. I have a duty to the students
themselves, and I also have a duty to their employers who are footing the
bill. If I let students off lightly, they might themselves be happy, but
their bosses won't be when they realise Sid still hasn't a clue about
anything, and they've just wasted X thousand dollars for apparently nothing.
That reflects badly on them, and on me.
Likewise, if I'm asked the astoundingly obvious question, I can either make
nice and answer it with a straight face (which gives the poster an answer,
but the bare minimm of 'survival' skills), or I can impress on them that
there is a bigger responsibility -to take control of the database for
yourself. The first approach is a cop-out, in my book. I owe them
something better than that. And I owe myself not to take the easy route.
>
> However in teaching somebody on a newsgroup, do you really have the same
> "license" to be stern or to yell (as you put it) at somebody you profess
to
> teach?
Well, if somebody gets me yelling at them for free, whereas some people get
me yelling at them for megabucks, the freebies are getting a good deal, are
they not?? ;-)
The point is, I don't draw a distinction -except that the medium is
different, and posters here can't see me perform gymnastics on the
whiteboard or stuff up my typing with monotonous regularity. If its good
for the paying customers, surely its good for the non-paying visitors here,
too. Leastways, that's how I see it. The point is, every newbie I see here
reminds me of me, not so very long ago, when all I knew about was Access.
If someone yelled at me for posting the bleedin' obvious, I could either run
away in shame and embarrasment, vowing never to return, or I could determine
that there were some basics I needed to learn first. I reckon the
determined approach is the right one for all DBAs to follow ('cause when the
database crashes, you can't afford to run away!).
>I don't think so. In as much as Sybrand does not have direct
> responsibility over the other poster's learning, his motivation for the
way
> he behaves towards newbies still puzzles me.
>
Look, I won't say that I don't think occasionally that various posters'
attitude is sometimes a little, er...shall we say "abrasive"? Mine too,
frequently. It's a community, after all... and all communities harbour the
bold, the beautiful, the sullen, the brilliant, the dumb and the <insert
adjective of choice here>. And we all have off-days, on-days and in-between
days. Yet we rub along (or should do). We can learn from everyone, even
newbies -who can remind us that that which we think is obvious may not be to
the uninitiated.
But however gruff the exterior, the last thing I want to see is the village
policeman declaring that so-and-so is too sulky/petulant/harsh to be a
community member. That way lies fascism.
Regards
HJR
> Roel
>
>
godmann
acting the
>>way they would. Remember that they are newbies -- they are bound to
commit
>>mistakes; they don't know where to look for previous discussions;
they don't
>>know how to phrase their questions; they do not know the structure
of the
>>documention or manual and they surely would ask stupid questions.
But I
>>tend to be forgiving. Great DBA's do not bark nor frown at them at
every
>>mistake they make.
I agree with the statements above. I think as Senior/Very-Senior
Oracle
Dba, one needs to *care* for the feeling of the new ones. Of course,
there
are always two sides to the truth in everything. If a new one keeps
coming
back with questions which obviously he does no homework on, he should
deserve
a little pointers with a little harsh words. On the other hand, people
like
Sybrand Bakker, Tom Kytes, Howard J Rogers, Nuno, Jim K., Koert54,
David F.
are all noble to me cuz they answer valuable questions. I don't know
how much
to say but I really think that missing any great names like those
listed above will be very sad for this ng (no offense if you are not
listed). All I want
to say is STAY Mr. Sybrand and at the same time be patient with the
newbies.
If they are really irritating, you may pass their questions by or if
they
are really INTELLECTUALLY LAZY (you need to discern), then one or two
torpedos is fine.
And to the newbies, do your homework!
Allan W. Tham
DBA (very NON-SENIOR)
FaheemRao
Faheem Rao
"Schemrooster" <WAG...@Microsoft.com> wrote in message news:<3bdf43ab$0$1509$e4fe...@newszilla.xs4all.nl>...
MarkyG
..........Group Hug...........
;-)
My TPW, some newbies are unaware of the portals and FAQ's out there.
If I undertook say, a DB2 assignment, i'll be a newbie in that field
and I *initially* wouldn't know if there is a DB2 equivalent of
MetaLink or a DB2 FAQ page.
Newbies: No harm asking for help on this newsgroup, just do some
digging sometimes before asking questions. We were all newbies at one
stage.
Sybrand: Keep up the good work, i've seen your name on this NG along
with the legend Tom Kyte around for years.
Everyone: Don't take things too personal.
M
"Schemrooster" <WAG...@Microsoft.com> wrote in message news:<3bdf43ab$0$1509$e4fe...@newszilla.xs4all.nl>...
<snip>
Galen Boyer
> How about simply ignoring those questions? There is no need to
> jump on each and every question and get offending, if you can't
> stand it.
Because then the poster would get the wrong idea of the
newsgroup. He/she would think that the newsgroup isn't
listening which is entirely false.
If one is truly in charge of something, dba, developer, designer
and the person directs questions to their boss or peers which
show they were too lazy to do any research, they would hear
something from their boss or peers. Why should that person get
off free here? The group is basically treating him/her like we
would our peers.
Most people that are answering questions are treating those
questions like they would treat them personally. It truly is a
professional answer.
Sybrand could be a little less harsh is all, but I bet he is
pretty much the same way if you tap him on the shoulder. I bet
his peers ask him an easily researched question and they get a
turt reply. But I also would bet that the exact wording of his
replies aren't exactly how they appear on this group. The RTFM
poster is taking advantage of the fact that some very helpful
people might exist on a worldwide newsgroup who might do his work
for him and Sybrand is probably taking advantage of the fact that
he doesn't have to answer to a worldwide newsgroup. But the RTFM
poster has alot more to apologize for.
--
Galen deForest Boyer
Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground.
Galen Boyer
> if you look at the original poster's question it is clear that
> he did absolutely zero work on his own before posting the
> question. i mean, how long do you have to spend on oracle's
> website before you find references to the command line imp/exp
> programs? he didn't even know they EXIST let alone how to use
> them.
When these type of posts hit the newsgroup, everybody reads them.
At times, the NG will ignore them, but if someone else answers a
particular post, the NG will then review it for accuracy. If the
answer is innaccurate, then someone from the NG will almost
certainly correct the answer to protect the integrity of the NG.
Then, a thread might ensue. ...
This is alot of work caused by someone who didn't take the time,
at all, to read anything and posted an easily researched
question.
Maybe if the people such as Sybrand didn't care that the correct
answers are posted to the requestors, then you wouldn't get his
replies. Its the fact that he doesn't want the wrong answers
posted which keep him reading and replying to the same questions
over and over.
Galen Boyer
> ... it's just a newsgroup boys & girls - have some fun in life
> - or get a life
That is the attitude across much of usenet. But the product that
this newsgroup discusses _is_ many people's lives. I think it is
a great thing that the time spent by these professionals is so
closely guarded by those answering it. RTFM posts waste time,
even if one is just ignoring the post.
Rene Nyffenegger
> questions like 'I posted a query here 5 times today and no-one answered
> - arn't you interested in helping me?'
> I've seen it over on the C++ NGs that I lurk on.
Good point!
Didn't consider this.
Rene
--
Ereignisse in der Geschichte des Computers:
http://www.adp-gmbh.ch/personal/histoire/histoire.html
Richard Q Woodland
Sybrand is THE MAN!
Richard Q Woodland
Paul Brewer
post a 'mee too'.
Paul
"Nuno Souto" <nso...@optushome.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3bde63b4.2475333@news...
<snip>
> Please, Sy. Stay. Your contributions are much appreciated, even if
> many people don't take the time to say so.
<snip>
Gerard H. Pille
>
> Thank you for your comments.
> My suspicion that using a newsgroup with highly educated/experienced
> boffins, who look down on us mere mortals/learners/beginners with the
> contempt, we obviously deserve, has once again been thoroughly confirmed.
>
> Hth,
Hello Neil (or Jim?),
You shouldn't complain, I had a look at your posting and Mr. Bakker's
answer, and for his way of answering, you have been treated rather
kindly, lots of people were treated a lot worse.
This thread will have pleased Mr. Bakker a lot, receiving so much
attention, he even had to join in himself, threatening to leave this
newsgroup. Can you imagine this newsgroup without Mr. Bakker? I do not
understand that my newspaper and the radio and television were paying so
much attention to what's happening in Afghanistan and Israel/Palestina,
while Mr. Bakker was actually threatening to leave this newsgroup. I
was totally unaware!
In joining this thread a second time, Mr. Bakker felt it necessary to
generalise: "However I think you will be constantly at war here with
every experienced Oracle DBA (in your terms 'more than 5 years', for me
more than 12)".
I assure you, this is not the case for me (as "experienced" but wishing
I was younger), and I would be astonished if it would be the case for
someone like, eg, Thomas Kyte, who puts Mr. Bakker in the shadow (which
he doesn't like) on both a professional and human (politeness) level.
I hope that you haven't been put off, and if you have a problem which
you can't solve, please put it to this newsgroup. Mr. Bakker, who may
be the one answering/solving most of the problems, still does not own
this newsgroup. His style may be breathtaking, certainly when you are
new here, but even I am regularly amazed by his reactions. It just
shows that intelligence and manners are two different things. Mr.
Bakker is better than most of us, and wants it to be felt and known.
Keep your questions coming, newsgroups are worth more than the best
service contract one can get. They only cost time ;-)
--
Gerard H. Pille
(denk even na voor je antwoordt)
koert54
;-)
"Gerard H. Pille" <g...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:3BE68642...@skynet.be...
John Darrah
day
to belittle people and pump up your ego. If you want to unsubscribe, that's
your
choice you've threatened to do this at least once before. If you are going to
stay
around could you *please* *stop* *using* "*" in your posts? Its very
***annoying***
"Sybrand Bakker" <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:9ufstt0o2rvv9fnrm...@4ax.com...
--
Posted from d225s240.hotbank.com [63.83.225.240]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Norman Dunbar
Isn't the use of '*' around a word standard netiquette to show bold or
emphasis when using a text only medium ?
Saves having that virus ridden HTML in every posting.
regrads,
Norman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Norman Dunbar EMail: Norman...@LFS.co.uk
Database/Unix administrator Phone: 0113 289 6265
Fax: 0113 289 3146
Lynx Financial Systems Ltd. URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
-----Original Message-----
From: John Darrah [mailto:jda...@veripost.net]
Posted At: Monday, November 05, 2001 5:02 PM
Posted To: server
Conversation: Sybrand Bakker
Subject: Re: Sybrand Bakker
<SNIP>
Connor McDonald
*Yes* I believe that is *correct* :-)
--
==============================
Connor McDonald
"Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue..."
Mark Styles
<Norman...@lfs.co.uk> wrote:
>Correct me if I'm wrong but :
>
>Isn't the use of '*' around a word standard netiquette to show bold or
>emphasis when using a text only medium ?
>Saves having that virus ridden HTML in every posting.
Depends who you talk to. I've always been taught to emphasise with
_underscores_ like _this_. Asterisks can do weird things if you're
processing messages in Unix.
Luis Nobre
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael G. Schneider" <m...@mgs-software.de>
> Newsgroups: comp.databases.oracle.server
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Sybrand Bakker
>
>
> > "Norman Dunbar" <Norman...@lfs.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > news:E2F6A70FE45242488C8...@lnewton.leeds.lfs.co.uk...
> >
> > > He answers a whole load of queries on this NG, sometimes over and over
> > > and over again - because people don't seem to want to check out the
> > > archives, first - understandable when in a fix, but ...
> >
> each
> > and every question and get offending, if you can't stand it.
> >
>
>
> I agree.
>
> Realistically, nobody can stop a newbie from being lazy and whip his
> questions right away without doing his own research. I know this is
> frustrating for some people who hate to repeat an answer but you can't
> forever say "This question has been answered many times already." If you
> do, you will spend a great deal of your time, writing that statement over
> and over to every newcomer who asks without looking at the archives. That's
> what Sybrand is doing and he is wasting his own time by acting like a
> policeman of this NG who scolds every newcomer who violates the so-called
> rules. It is a totally futile effort on his part.
>
> I believe the NG serves a dual purpose of being a venue for raising
> questions and the unobvious but great purpose of being a venue for anybody
> to become a teacher or a mentor. Being a teacher or mentor is a fulfilling
> thing to a lot of people. I can't remember the exact words but there is a
> dictum that says, one can only consider himself a truly learned person if he
> can teach what he knows.
>
> So if one is tired of repeating himself when somebody is asking about a
> topic that has been answered in the past, he simply does not have to answer
> and let somebody else do the task of being mentor or a teacher this time.
>
> Roel
Man, you said it all. I couldn't agree more.
lcnobre
Luis Nobre
You're sooooooo right!
Watch out folks! Stress kills more than cancer!
Best regards!