Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?
Don Burleson
I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
"The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
Testing Center."
Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
more worthless than before.
Comments?
Paul Brewer
"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
You can't devalue something which was worthless in the first place.
Regards,
Paul
DA Morgan
What do you mean "worthless"?
They're paying for Larry's America's Cup challenge boat aren't they?
Dan Morgan
Steve Jorgensen
Worthless to whom?
I'm someone with extensive background in MS SQL Server. In my case,
shouldn't Oracle certification show that I've learned the specifics of
Oracle, and thus be of great value in conjunction with my long
background in relational databases when I apply for a job using
Oracle? To me, the Oracle exam as it has stood until now sounded
worthwhile, and this unproctored thing is bothersome to me as I have
yet to take the exams and obtain my certification.
Nuno Souto
> practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
> more worthless than before.
Narh! That's a physical impossibility!
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam
Howard J. Rogers
"Steve Jorgensen" <nos...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:ccll0v8og5jvhv9e6...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:23:41 -0000, "Paul Brewer"
> <pa...@paul.brewers.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
> >news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
> >> Greetings,
> >>
> >> I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
> >>
> >> "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
> >> unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
> >> access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
> >> at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
> >> Testing Center."
> >>
> >> Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
> >> same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
> >> practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
> >> more worthless than before.
> >>
> >> Comments?
> >
> >You can't devalue something which was worthless in the first place.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Paul
> >
> >
>
> Worthless to whom?
To the industry.
Employers worth working for know it's a heap of doo-dah. Employers who think
it means something aren't worth working for.
Regards
HJR
Rauf Sarwar
>
> They're paying for Larry's America's Cup challenge boat aren't they?
>
> Dan Morgan
Micro$oft shoves a revenue pipe up everyone's @#$% for every worthless
product they can come up with.
On the other hand, Oracle let's you "Test" their software for free so
Larry atleast deserves a revenue pipe of some sort....no matter the
end result is OCP.
/Rauf Sarwar
michael ngong
contributors in this forum are trying to paint it.
I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
one who has been working for a while.Some need a lot of training but
others seem to be ready to go.But the bottom line is you know at least
on a theoretical bases ( assuming
you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
useful information about Oracle.
"Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
Michael Tubuo Ngong
DA Morgan
Exactly. Just like the Microsoft exams. People that pass the exams can't
necessarily do the job. And people that can do the job can't necessarily pass
the exams (because too often the official answers are wrong or not mutually
exclusive or test complete irrelevancies).
Daniel Morgan
DA Morgan
I expect the OCP to be the equivalent in Oracle to the medical exam taken
by a physician or the State Bar exam taken by attorney's or the pharmacy
board exams taken by pharmacists. I expect them to be capable of
distinguishing between those with book knowledge (no actual or practical
experience) and those that can actually do that job.
From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
to verify that they've ever heard your name before.
And the above is why, at the University of Washington, our curriculum is
intentionally not basedon the OCP but rather is based on actual
application development using applications built for AT&T and Boeing as
models. We want our students to be able to do the work ... not just
answer multiple choice questions about obscure things that no-one
actually uses or does.
Daniel Morgan
Steve Jorgensen
Right, but my statement was about certification in the projuct along
with experience in the industry. I expect my experience to show I
know what I'm doing and my certification to show that I've learned the
specifics of Oracle as well. I wouldn't expect Oracle certification
to be useful by itself, but I would have thought it would go a long
way when combined with industry experience. It should at least show I
had to study the material myself without the question that I could
easily have cheated.
Sybrand Bakker
<nos...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>I'm someone with extensive background in MS SQL Server. In my case,
>shouldn't Oracle certification show that I've learned the specifics of
>Oracle, and thus be of great value in conjunction with my long
>background in relational databases when I apply for a job using
>Oracle?
It shows you can read a book and English is your first language.
Also, the OCP material is usually fraught with errors and in some
cases the approved answers to some questions are debatable
Sybrand Bakker, Senior Oracle DBA
To reply remove -verwijderdit from my e-mail address
Svend Jensen
Seem a bit odd, taking an exam, but without proof of who did it.
I disagree with those who say OCP is worthless.
A drivers license doesn't make you a formula pilot.
It is true OCP doesn't make you master in anything.
It proofs that you were able to answer ~60% right on ~60 odd and
sometimes theoretical questions.
*but* study for OCP gives anybody the opportunity to come out of the
dba-cave/application and take a tour around in most of the features and
corners of the huge product.
And *that* has value. A better overall understanding and knowledge has
value.
It is easy to be a critic. It is harder to make it better.
Some of those that say OCP is worthless and are not OCP's
- either they cant handle/take it (now I get flamed).
- or cant get their employer to pay for it or cant afford it.
- or think they are masters in their own right.
rgds
/Svend Jensen OCP
dev@null
<howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > >> practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
> > >> more worthless than before.
> > >>
> > >> Comments?
> > >
> > >You can't devalue something which was worthless in the first place.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Worthless to whom?
>
> To the industry.
>
> Employers worth working for know it's a heap of doo-dah. Employers who think
> it means something aren't worth working for.
>
In an ideal world, perhaps.
OK, I'll fez up. I'm doing the OCP (DBA) and have a couple of exams to go.
It has the following value:
- @#$%! personel departments (or whatever huggy-bunny name they are giving
themselves these days) are dumb animals. When organisations (esp. guvmint) are
recruiting, they go through HR and HR go to the recruitment manual (written by a
committee of dumb animals) which says; degree, OPC, pick a meaningless
qualification. As these are the people that will do the first scruitiny on an
application / resume, these are the qualifications that get you to the people
who have a clue. I wouldn't expect the clued-up to make much of my OCP but at
least I get a chance of showing them my experience. The OCP gets me in front of
the people I want to talk to.
- I'm not a DBA and have no real ambitions to be one. I do, however, develop
data warehouses and performance is right up there. The OCP at least gives me a
common vocabulary with the DBAs I'm working with and some insight into what they
do and their concerns. Perhaps experience should give me all that but it is not
always the case. It would depend on specific individual experience. The OCP
makes me better at my job.
In conclusion, the OCP is about money. My money. As far as I'm concerned, the
'people worth working for' are the ones who are going to pay me well regardless
of how they are set up or their attitude towards formal qualifications.
As for a newcommer, I reckon it's a pretty good starting point. The OCP gives a
good broad basic understanding of how Oracle works and is not a bad
pre-requisite to getting down and dirty with the docs, lurking here, running
google searches and, of course, playing with the engine.
IMHO, of course.
Steve Roach
Joe
I think the process is very worthwhile. At least I got a feeling what
Oracle 9i will provide other than 8i. My coworkers who did not try to study
for the OCP does not even have the clue what else Oracle 9i can offer, and
how it will improve our work, not because they cann't read English, because
they do not have to. Your boss will not blame you for not using something
he himself does not even know that exists.
One of my friend is working with a middle size company which has three DBAs.
Every time they do a upgrade, they will take an outrage, I asked them why
not using standby database, none of them even know such thing exists.
Another case, everytime they found that one or a few SQLs is not using the
right path, they have to call their software company to send them an
application patch, which of course means downtime and extra cost. I asked
them why not using Outline Stabilty, they said they never heard of it.
"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
DA Morgan
There is no excuse for someone in our industry not staying current any more
than you'd want to go to hospital and have them send in a surgeon that hadn't
studied more since graduating 32 years ago.
But I have been on both sides of the interview table. Both being interviewed
and more often conducting interview. And to be perfectly honest I have never
been asked if I have an OCP, never asked someone if they did, and if they did I
would have been more suspicious of their credentials than someone that did not.
The reason I'd be more suspicious would be that I would know that they might
have book knowedge without practical knowledge. Here are a few sample questions
I routinely ask those I interview. If you think an OCP will help you through
them let me know.
1. You have just been given a CD for the latest release of an Oracle product.
What steps do you go through to install it?
2. You have two tables, A and B. Identical columns in both name and data type.
Some percentage of the records in table A are also in table B. In a single SQL
statement give me an answer set that contains the records that are only in
table A (not in B) and identify them as coming from table A and those records
in table B (not in A) and identify them as coming from table B.
3. You have a call from a user that says "the database is running slower today
than it was last week". What things are definitely not the problem and can be
ignored?
Daniel Morgan
Nuno Souto
> I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
> solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
Would be fun if for once a few of them could actually get ANY problem
solved or one question answered...
> Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
> without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
> one who has been working for a while.
So because the "other walks of life" are blatantly wrong, we should
perpetuate the same mistake with OCP?
> But the bottom line is you know at least
> on a theoretical bases ( assuming
> you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
> useful information about Oracle.
No you don't. The OCP is an exam with multiple choice answers, mostly
unrelated to any real life situations. Many of the questions are more
related to you knowing the marketing flavour of the month (release)
rather than you knowing anything about databases. You know jack about
running a real installation after completing it. The whole thing is
bogus, always was, always will be.
> "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
It is an appropriate word. The only organisation for which it is not
worthless is Oracle and the multiple "examiners" who have made a motza
out of something that is fundamentally flawed and was never asked for by
the user community.
Nuno Souto
>
> A drivers license doesn't make you a formula pilot.
> It is true OCP doesn't make you master in anything.
> It proofs that you were able to answer ~60% right on ~60 odd and
> sometimes theoretical questions.
And that *is* value? :(
>
> *but* study for OCP gives anybody the opportunity to come out of the
> dba-cave/application and take a tour around in most of the features and
> corners of the huge product.
You can do that without any OCP whatever. Pick up a good book and go for
it. OCP is just a way for Oracle and a multitude of other organisations
of zero (0) credibility to make a quick buck out of "education". A-la
Microsoft.
>
> And *that* has value. A better overall understanding and knowledge has
> value.
No. You are not gaining one bit of better understanding about anything
with an OCP. You are being "trained" by rote in the SPECIFICS of one
particular version of Oracle.
That is not under the umbrella and classification of a "professional"
qualification in anyone's book.
But that is EXACTLY what it is being sold as.
Ergo: it has no value whatsoever.
>
> It is easy to be a critic. It is harder to make it better.
No one wants to make it better. It was never needed. Simple.
>
> Some of those that say OCP is worthless and are not OCP's
> - either they cant handle/take it (now I get flamed).
Why? It is a perfectly valid conclusion.
> - or cant get their employer to pay for it or cant afford it.
Quite true. Mostly because they see no value in it. Their employers as
well.
> - or think they are masters in their own right.
And some of them even train the people that take OCP. And get them
through with 95%+ certification...
> /Svend Jensen OCP
Which version? HAve you beenn taking the updates liek they told you?
See any value in them? Me neither.
Nuno Souto
> I think the process is very worthwhile. At least I got a feeling what
> Oracle 9i will provide other than 8i.
What exactly does it provide? The two examples you quoted are also
available in 8i...
See? This is what I mean by being trained for the specifics of one
particular version.
You are not learning ANYTHING to do with relational database or its use.
You are learning the specifics of one version of a piece of software.
And assuming that what you have been told is part of 9i is the be-all-
and-end-all of Oracle.
Wrong.
> they do not have to. Your boss will not blame you for not using something
> he himself does not even know that exists.
Your boss will never blame you for anything technical. It has *nothing*
to do with the relative value of OCP or any other technical
"certification".
And if he/she thinks that it's good value to send you on a 9i OCP to
learn the specifics of 9i instead of just putting you through one of
Oracle's "Differences" courses...
Joe
What I took is Oracle 8i to 9i upgrade exam. During this process, I forced
myself to go through 9i new feature, a tedious process, which on the other
case you will never do if you do not want to get certified.
Even though my two examples are for 8i, I just want to point out that those
people, who has been working with Oracle for several years, did not spend
any time to read 8i new features. I did not have any chance to talk to any
people about 9i yet.
And I am sure soon I will be providing people who did not, does not and will
not study 9i, with advice about 9i new features and my knowledge through
studying 9i upgrade exam.
Honestly, many sites just upgrade their Oracle version for supporting
purpose. They never pay attention to how to take advantage of some new
feature they are paying for. I think DBAs, whether certified or not, makes
a lot of difference.
"Nuno Souto" <nso...@optushome.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:3e0bdedd$0$7811$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Sybrand Bakker
>Honestly, many sites just upgrade their Oracle version for supporting
>purpose. They never pay attention to how to take advantage of some new
>feature they are paying for.
Most third party sw (originally developed for sqlserver) doesn't use
any feature beyond 7.3.4 and still relies on the rule based optimizer.
So, apart from administrative features as LMT, chances are you are
never going to use any 8i specific feature.
If you continue to upgrade though (to 10i) you will get a very
unpleasant surprise as RBO is now gone.
We are administering many sites that have upgraded to 8.1.7, just
because we forced them to, because our policies don't allow
unsupported software. But 0 new features are being used, unless (LMT
again) implemented by my firm. This is not because we don't want to
use new features, but because the third party vendor never certified
their sw for 8.1.7
michael ngong
> 26 Dec 2002 06:39:15 -0800, michael ngong said (and I quote):
>
> > I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
> > solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
>
>
> Would be fun if for once a few of them could actually get ANY problem
> solved or one question answered...
???One question answered I thought that is what the exam is all about?
It is interesting to note that the OCP,s you know cannnot turn on
archiving . I am not trying to back any one here but there could be
students of yours who will be found wanting once you deviate the
least from the curriculum so why do you expect OCP,s to be different.
You still have a right to take your stand
>
>
> > Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
> > without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
> > one who has been working for a while.
>
>
> So because the "other walks of life" are blatantly wrong, we should
> perpetuate the same mistake with OCP?
OCP should be the exception to life Right?Just as it is not possible
to correct other works of life I would think it is not possible to
correct OCP,s
>
>
> > But the bottom line is you know at least
> > on a theoretical bases ( assuming
> > you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
> > useful information about Oracle.
>
>
> No you don't. The OCP is an exam with multiple choice answers, mostly
> unrelated to any real life situations. Many of the questions are more
> related to you knowing the marketing flavour of the month (release)
> rather than you knowing anything about databases. You know jack about
> running a real installation after completing it. The whole thing is
> bogus, always was, always will be.
Have you written any exam?I had a while ago and do not remember any
questions on version, may be things have changed with the years
(cannot say).
Did you compare OCP exam to board exams somewhere?That seems a little
out of line comparism .I am sure Oracle will accept recommendations
for the exam but the comparism at least IMHO is a not a good one
I cannot guarantee but you still produce students who are wanting once
you step on anything the least deviant from your curriculum.Once more
OCP should not be expected to be an exception
>
>
> > "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
>
> It is an appropriate word. The only organisation for which it is not
> worthless is Oracle and the multiple "examiners" who have made a motza
> out of something that is fundamentally flawed and was never asked for by
> the user community.
Once more as much as OCP is far from ideal, it could enjoy a lot of
improvement but it is not "worthless"
My opnion
Michael Tubuo Ngong(DBA)
Rauf Sarwar
>
> OK, I'll fez up. I'm doing the OCP (DBA) and have a couple of exams to go.
>
> It has the following value:
>
> - @#$%! personel departments (or whatever huggy-bunny name they are giving
> themselves these days) are dumb animals. When organisations (esp. guvmint) are
> recruiting, they go through HR and HR go to the recruitment manual (written by a
> committee of dumb animals) which says; degree, OPC, pick a meaningless
> qualification. As these are the people that will do the first scruitiny on an
> application / resume, these are the qualifications that get you to the people
> who have a clue. I wouldn't expect the clued-up to make much of my OCP but at
> least I get a chance of showing them my experience. The OCP gets me in front of
> the people I want to talk to.
I think the buzz word here is "Companies that are serious about their
database". "guvmint" as you put it, and some big corporations are
nothing but big bureacracies. They are more into "filling" a position
according to some set criteria rather then actually seeing what
skillsets are required for a particular job. e.g. Could FedEx live
with a few hours downtime where customers cannot track their packages?
I guess not.
>
> - I'm not a DBA and have no real ambitions to be one. I do, however, develop
> data warehouses and performance is right up there. The OCP at least gives me a
> common vocabulary with the DBAs I'm working with and some insight into what they
> do and their concerns. Perhaps experience should give me all that but it is not
> always the case. It would depend on specific individual experience. The OCP
> makes me better at my job.
Oracle database is like a 2 year old child. Sometimes unpredictable
and requires constant attention. Just like a parent cannot become a
"Good parent" by just reading Dr. Spock's books, a DBA cannot become a
good DBA just by reading thru an exam cram and passing an exam. You
have to touch it and feel it and learn it's intricacies.
>
> In conclusion, the OCP is about money. My money. As far as I'm concerned, the
> 'people worth working for' are the ones who are going to pay me well regardless
> of how they are set up or their attitude towards formal qualifications.
>
This attitude by techies and companies that hire them is saturating
the market with candidates that have all sort's of engravings on their
resumes but not much else.
> As for a newcommer, I reckon it's a pretty good starting point. The OCP gives a
> good broad basic understanding of how Oracle works and is not a bad
> pre-requisite to getting down and dirty with the docs, lurking here, running
> google searches and, of course, playing with the engine.
Yes it does give you theoretic broad perspective but you have to back
it up with some practical knowledge.
Regards
/Rauf Sarwar
Bert Bear
Plus there are fewer exams with the Oracle 9i exam sequence (verses the 8i
OCP).
Sigh.
Bertram Moshier
Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
Wanderley M Ceschim
It's not just about features directly used by your application. Oracle8i
(and newer) have several features your DBA will love and your users even
more (such as online table reorg and automatic rollback management in
Oracle 9i).
I understand application vendors want to build on a stable platform, but
when I worked for a software house we made a constant effort to keep up
with newer versions, being at most two years "late" to the punch.
My 2 cents, anyway. Guess a bit off-topic though.
Nuno Souto
>
> Honestly, many sites just upgrade their Oracle version for supporting
> purpose. They never pay attention to how to take advantage of some new
> feature they are paying for.
And in what way does this prove that OCP is good value?
> I think DBAs, whether certified or not, makes
> a lot of difference.
>
As I said: while laudable, it has nothing to do with OCP being of any
value to anyone except Larry's and the "educator's" pockets.
Nuno Souto
>
> It is interesting to note that the OCP,s you know cannnot turn on
> archiving .
Er? Where did I say that?
> I am not trying to back any one here but there could be
> students of yours who will be found wanting once you deviate the
> least from the curriculum so why do you expect OCP,s to be different.
There is no such thing as a "student of mine". I think you got me
confused with someone else?
>
> OCP should be the exception to life Right?Just as it is not possible
> to correct other works of life I would think it is not possible to
> correct OCP,s
Good. Let's scrap the thing then. I think that's what Oracle is
starting to do with this measure.
> I cannot guarantee but you still produce students who are wanting once
> you step on anything the least deviant from your curriculum.Once more
> OCP should not be expected to be an exception
I do not produce any students. No educational institution here.
However, I do expect anyone with proper training to be able to read a
manual and be able to deduce from basic principles acquired while
studying what the heck is that manual all about. I see none of the sort
in any1 with just OCP training.
Nuno Souto
>
> Oracle database is like a 2 year old child. Sometimes unpredictable
> and requires constant attention.
Nothing could be more removed from the truth... Not detracting from the
rest of your intervention.
Niall Litchfield
> Right, but my statement was about certification in the projuct along
> with experience in the industry. I expect my experience to show I
> know what I'm doing and my certification to show that I've learned the
> specifics of Oracle as well. I wouldn't expect Oracle certification
> to be useful by itself, but I would have thought it would go a long
> way when combined with industry experience. It should at least show I
> had to study the material myself without the question that I could
> easily have cheated.
I agree Steve. At the very least it should get you the interview. I have two
hesitations
1. OCP doesn't show tnat you have learned all the specifics but that you
have a broad overview of how Oracle works. It's kind of an entry level
thing.
2. Even given the above it is possible to gain the OCP with great glaring
weaknesses. To pick an example from someone whose certificates are close at
hand <g>.
Multi-Threaded server Usage and Configuration 4 out of 9.
Connection Manager Usage and Configuration 1 out of 5.
Both of those subject areas could be somewhat important. We don't use them
and I was doing the exam with a hangover anyway.
--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
*****************************************
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer
******************************************
Niall Litchfield
news:3E0B2B1F...@exesolutions.com...
> Exactly. Just like the Microsoft exams. People that pass the exams can't
> necessarily do the job. And people that can do the job can't necessarily
pass
> the exams (because too often the official answers are wrong or not
mutually
> exclusive or test complete irrelevancies).
I disagree, I would expect anyone who can do the job to be able to pass the
exams (with some sensible study). It isn't rocket science. Your first
comment is of course spot on.
Niall Litchfield
news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
> Greetings,
>
> I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
>
> "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
> unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
> access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
> at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
> Testing Center."
>
> Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
> same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
> practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
> more worthless than before.
>
> Comments?
I see you don't have that many helpful answers - though a good discussion
has resulted.
Where did you get the quote above? From Oracle or some internet source?
If true then it clearly does devalue the exam. I'm not sure that it devalues
the certification - I can't imagine that the failure rate for SQL was all
that high in the first place.
Connor McDonald
True story from newsgroup:
"What does rownum mean?
Signed John Doe OCP 7,8,8i"
Hmmmmmmmmmm
Mark Rittman
no checking of identity or whether you 'cheat' or not.
However - it's only one of four exams, and you won't pass the others if you
had to cheat on the first. As just one of four exams, just passing this
won't get you anywhere, and it's probably just a marketing ploy by Oracle to
get you to take the first of the exams, in an easy environment, with the
hope being that you'll then go on to do the rest of them.
What's potentially more interesting about the 9i DBA OCP is that you now
have to take at least one Oracle University course (9i SQL, DBA Fundamentals
I and II, Tuning etc) to qualify for the OCP. This will no doubt be a nice
earner for Oracle.
Mark Rittman
Joel Garry
>
> > But the bottom line is you know at least
> > on a theoretical bases ( assuming
> > you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
> > useful information about Oracle.
>
>
> No you don't. The OCP is an exam with multiple choice answers, mostly
> unrelated to any real life situations. Many of the questions are more
> related to you knowing the marketing flavour of the month (release)
> rather than you knowing anything about databases. You know jack about
> running a real installation after completing it. The whole thing is
> bogus, always was, always will be.
While I certainly agree with most of this, I have to say I have
learned some useful stuff. I say that as one who spent years figuring
things out for myself and delving into the concepts, etc. manuals.
When you figure things out yourself, it is very easy to miss the
obvious and develop some strange superstitious behaviors. Certainly
usenet et al is not immune to that!
And of course, I spent a lot of time learning useless stuff. At least
I have some exposure to it when I have to throw it out when someone
wants to pay me to make something work!
>
>
> > "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
>
> It is an appropriate word. The only organisation for which it is not
> worthless is Oracle and the multiple "examiners" who have made a motza
> out of something that is fundamentally flawed and was never asked for by
> the user community.
Oracle is a pretty large and influential provider of OCP services...
Was so asked for by the user community. I recall being in usenet
discussions about it. Companies wanted some way to distinguish those
who are trained, and dba's wanted to be able to show they were
trained. I was a bit cantankerous about the details, arguing that the
tests seemed to be skewed against the more experienced, and am still a
bit surprised that the process turned out so much worse than I
predicted.
jg, OCP, whoopie
--
@home.com is bogus, substr cox.net. "Catherine Beecher believed that
there were two sides to society: The corrupting and masculine world
of business, and the home, which was kept virtuous by the mother...
Beecher would have told [Martha] Stewart to stick to her knitting."
Don Bauder
Joel Garry
> michael ngong wrote:
>
> > I do not think OCP is as "worthless" as some of our respected
> > contributors in this forum are trying to paint it.
> > I am not sure what some people expect OCP,s to do.Get in and
> > solve every problem or answer all questions which are oracle related?
> > Just like other diplomas and every work of life, some people come out
> > without a lot to offer while others come out with the feel of some
> > one who has been working for a while.Some need a lot of training but
> > others seem to be ready to go.But the bottom line is you know at least
> > on a theoretical bases ( assuming
> > you read books exclusively in preparation for the tests )some very
> > useful information about Oracle.
> > "Worthless" therefore is not the proper word
> > Michael Tubuo Ngong
>
> I expect the OCP to be the equivalent in Oracle to the medical exam taken
> by a physician or the State Bar exam taken by attorney's or the pharmacy
> board exams taken by pharmacists. I expect them to be capable of
> distinguishing between those with book knowledge (no actual or practical
> experience) and those that can actually do that job.
>
> From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
> university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
> attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
> to verify that they've ever heard your name before.
So how about "Oracle Masters?" Making lemonade out of the OCP lemon,
or big revenue stream for Oracle?
>
> And the above is why, at the University of Washington, our curriculum is
> intentionally not basedon the OCP but rather is based on actual
> application development using applications built for AT&T and Boeing as
> models. We want our students to be able to do the work ... not just
> answer multiple choice questions about obscure things that no-one
> actually uses or does.
So you are a mill... just like the course I took in '80, feeding COBOL
clones to the aircraft industry. Fortunately I jumped at the
opportunity to do online work with databases (relational within a few
months) and didn't actually deal with that stick-in-the-mud industry
for nearly two decades - even now Oracle is relatively new in some
places (or worse, stuff from the COBOL era grafted on to Oracle).
They _need_ OCP style certs that work.
>
> Daniel Morgan
jg
--
@home is bogus. "New claims for unemployment benefits fell last week
by the largest number in more than a year... The four-week moving
average, which smooths out weekly fluctuations... the highest level
since the week that ended Oct. 19." - AP story.
Joel Garry
> "Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
> news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
> >
> > "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
> > unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
> > access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
> > at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
> > Testing Center."
> >
> > Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
> > same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
> > practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
> > more worthless than before.
> >
> > Comments?
>
> I see you don't have that many helpful answers - though a good discussion
> has resulted.
>
> Where did you get the quote above? From Oracle or some internet source?
http://www.oracle.com/education/certification/index.html?onlinetest.html
And click on the link for the online testing overview, if this comes
up without java weirdness.
>
> If true then it clearly does devalue the exam. I'm not sure that it devalues
> the certification - I can't imagine that the failure rate for SQL was all
> that high in the first place.
SQL exam in particular is amenable to being passed without "getting
it," in my observational experience.
>
>
> --
> Niall Litchfield
> Oracle DBA
> Audit Commission UK
> *****************************************
> Please include version and platform
> and SQL where applicable
> It makes life easier and increases the
> likelihood of a good answer
> ******************************************
jg
--
@home is bogus.
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/02/Dec/haiku.html
Tim X
> I do not produce any students. No educational institution here.
> However, I do expect anyone with proper training to be able to read a
> manual and be able to deduce from basic principles acquired while
> studying what the heck is that manual all about. I see none of the sort
> in any1 with just OCP training.
>
while personally, I don't have any opinion on the worth of OCP in
itself, there is one way in which I do think it is useful. I've only
been working with Oracle (as a developer) for about 18 months. We have
1 DBA. One complaint he has is he does not have enough time to learn
about and get up to speed with respect to new features etc in later
versions of Oracle. this has been further complicated by the fact he
was out of the DBA business for some time and because we have been
replacing 3 of our major systems with new ones, so things have been
very very flat out for the last 12 months.
He has managed to get an agreement from management that part of my
time will now be devoted to DBA training and that time is to be
allocated for both of us to study for and sit for the OCP exams. To
me, this is probably the biggest advantage of getting OCP status - the
employer providing the time to learn and experiment with new
features and at the end, they will "feel" they have got something
more. While I do believe as professionals it is our responsibility to
keep current in our own time, it is nice to have support from your
employer in providing time to do this, if for no other reason than it
gets you to your end goal faster.
However, the bottom line is that there is no piece of paper which can
replace experience and something like OCP status does not really
guarantee anything - like any degree or other piece of paper, some of
those who have it will be good and others will be hopeless.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Sloptus
news:91884734.02122...@posting.google.com and I quote:
>
> Was so asked for by the user community. I recall being in usenet
> discussions about it. Companies wanted some way to distinguish those
> who are trained, and dba's wanted to be able to show they were
> trained.
The keyword here is "trained". Companies indeed asked for that:
a way to make sure the people they were employing as
trained (or contracting as such) were indeed trained.
We all know of the guys with 5 years "certified training and experience"
in Forms V4.1, available on the market 6 months before that
product reached production status...
That was the real problem. The bogus qualifications of
"instant experts". Not the pre-existing experienced people.
OCP has got NOTHING to do with training. It is a certification
process. Means jack about prior training and the quality of such.
In fact it means jack, period. What exactly does OCP buy anyone
hiring one? Is an OCP a DBA? Is it a development expert?
Is it a design expert?
Or is it indeed as bogus as it gets? I know which one I'd pick...
No, OCP in its current format was never asked for by the user community.
What Oracle provided with OCP was a way for them to make $$$
out of a real customer need. Never mind if it actually
satisfied it. And of course it didn't go unnoticed that
Oracle was getting into the services arena at the time and
"implicitly" all their consultants would be "certified"
(as opposed to the "great unwashed")...
Never mind that indeed most of their "consultants" had never
even touched a database, let alone be trained on anything!
Cripes, the place had such a turnaround back then there was barely
enough time to train anyone before they got out on their
own and formed their own corporation...
It would have been much, much simpler and more reliable if
Oracle had instituted a certification program for those that
PROVIDED education on their products. There were quite a
few "doubtfull" ones. And I use the term losely.
> I was a bit cantankerous about the details, arguing that the
> tests seemed to be skewed against the more experienced, and am still a
> bit surprised that the process turned out so much worse than I
> predicted.
>
The process should never have taken place. It provided
zero value to the user community.
The day Oracle defines EXACTLY what does OCP mean and what does
it EXACTLY qualify anyone as is the day the darn thing will
deserve any respect.
As a user, I want to know what I can use an OCP as.
A developer? A designer? A mentor? An architect (heaven forbid!)
A DBA? What the heck does it really mean and what am I getting
for my money when I hire one?
Until then it is simply a shameless money-grabbing scheme.
Bert Bear
When I was taking the test, I wondered what was the first language of the
people who wrote the exam (and those (if any) who checked the exam).
Bertram Moshier
Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
"Sybrand Bakker" <gooid...@nospam.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:63cm0vou08quv7a33...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:09:55 GMT, Steve Jorgensen
> <nos...@nospam.nospam> wrote:
>
> >I'm someone with extensive background in MS SQL Server. In my case,
> >shouldn't Oracle certification show that I've learned the specifics of
> >Oracle, and thus be of great value in conjunction with my long
> >background in relational databases when I apply for a job using
> >Oracle?
>
> It shows you can read a book and English is your first language.
> Also, the OCP material is usually fraught with errors and in some
> cases the approved answers to some questions are debatable
Bert Bear
FYI: There is a big difference between "Oracle Master" and "Oracle
Certified Master."
An Oracle Master is someone who paid (or whose company paid) for Oracle
training. It doesn't say the person learned anything or even attended the
class (other than to sign-in).
On the other hand an "Oracle Certified Master" MIGHT BE getting closer to
what Daniel desires (e.g. like a state run board test for lawyers, doctors,
and engineers). The OCM requires you to:
1) Be an Oracle 9i OCP (via the 4 exams or New Features exam)
2) Take two advanced Oracle training classes (e.g. replication, advanced
SQL, etc.)
3) Take a two day practical exam where you build systems, implement
features, and solve problems on real machines.
The key is #3. The first two are nice and help you prepare but it is #3
that might make the OCM very valuable. It would be nice to know more about
the actual stuff covered, in order to judge its value.
Personally, I look forward to taking (and God willing passing) the OCM exam,
but only after studying and practicing for it.
Bertram Moshier
Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
"Joel Garry" <joel-...@home.com> wrote in message
news:91884734.0212...@posting.google.com...
> DA Morgan <damo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:<3E0B2C23...@exesolutions.com>...
> > michael ngong wrote:
> >
> > From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
> > university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
> > attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
> > to verify that they've ever heard your name before.
>
> So how about "Oracle Masters?" Making lemonade out of the OCP lemon,
> or big revenue stream for Oracle?
>
> >
> > Daniel Morgan
>
> jg
Bert Bear
During a recent interview, I had a chance to ask questions. I always ask
about continuing education (e.g. time to study areas not covered by the job,
next release, Usenet newsgroup, Oracle classes, etc.), writing papers, and
attending Oracle conferences.
The manager looked at me and replied, "I've been doing databases for over
15 years, Oracle, MS-SQL Server, SAP, PeopleSoft, IBM DB2, etc., and I
learned one thing. Database don't change. There is nothing more than four
things in a database, INSERT, DELETE, UPDATE, and" By this point, I was
tuning him out and making a not so positive opinion. It was obvious to him
training and staying current is not important.
I decided pass on this permanent opportunity.
Bertram Moshier
Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
"DA Morgan" <damo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:3E0BD617...@exesolutions.com...
Nick
to those who think of it as a qualification.
Speaking as one who is in the process of doing the OCP, I believe it's
only value is as a curriculum for a foundation course. In current
times, I'd need an Uzi as a negotating tool to extract training from
my current employer so this provides me with a predefined structure
for self study.
Personally, I don't intend to advertise the "credential" unless a post
specifically requires it and even then I'd be asking some pretty
searching questions as to why the employer considers it so vital.
I certainly will not be taken any upgrades to the certification
(unless an employer pays for it and gives study leave... beach days
:-)). I consider it utterly reprehensible but commercially
understandable of Oracle to tout the certification as a method of
"establishing a standard of competence" and that "hiring certified
professionals has a direct impact on a company's bottom line". Give me
a break! In the UK, they should be sued under the Trades Description
Act.
Happy New year
Nick
Tim X <ti...@spamto.devnul.com> wrote in message news:<87vg1dk...@tiger.rapttech.com.au>...
Simon Lenn
I am amused that you are outraged at OCP being unproctored who cares
atleast Oracle is doing such a decent job any Oracle software that you
want is available for trial free of cost, documentation is available
free of cost. What else can somebody who as brains ask for we are
getting free software without time limits and free documentation which
is excellent from Oracle this is nothing to crib about.
My boss sponsored me to go and write SAP certification guess I went to
the local SAP office 3 times the Certification program software is all
in Visual Basic and Active X controls would burst and blow on my face
and never worked 3 times and my blood pressure was going through the
roof the exam certification is $600 the certification is worth a
toilet paper. The SAP guy told me everytime the certification software
blew up that he as to contact Germany and get a fix and exam was
postponed by 2 to 3 weeks. Finally when the exam came it was
unproctored I heard usually it is proctored since the software blew up
so many times the examiner/supervisor perhaps did not have the
confidence to show up may be he was sure it would not work again.
Companies think they can reward employees by sending to this kind of
useless certification. On oracle I can buy electronic course materials
from Oracle and give the exams for SAP my company paid for each course
around more than $3500 for a course of 3 - 5 days the courses were so
crap the material was absolute nonsense the documentation of SAP even
their developers cannot follow it so bad, still they do not have a
concept of electronic course material. The company refuses to give any
documentation this is SAP.Their technology and the culture sucks. I
think we must be happy to work with a company like Oracle, believe me
after going through the SAP saga now I realise what Oracle as a
company is they tell developers on Technet on new features of the
product and free seminars, I still thank Oracle I viewed all Oracle
world sessions on the Net I cannot dream SAP will come to this stage
in another 4 years. If you want to know anything from SAP you have to
pay them a fortune I heard the rate is $400/hour to a SAP consultant
to know the new features of the product. And don't think that these
people know a lot they have difficulty even in using Windows or MS
OFfice proficiently !!!
I don't think never ever in the history of Oracle despite being so
large they have ripped customers like this. Siebel is no exception
they have the same culture as SAP. Go and find any Siebel CRM
documentation on a public web site you can find Oracle.
Come on cheer up look at the other side of the field how vendors are
skinning customers why complain on poor Oracle they are now perhaps
experimenting a honour system now. We must that Oracle to what kind of
a company they are.
Simon
"Mark Rittman" <markr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e0e07d5$0$21127$fa0f...@lovejoy.zen.co.uk>...
michael ngong
> 27 Dec 2002 08:15:19 -0800, michael ngong said (and I quote):
> >
> > It is interesting to note that the OCP,s you know cannnot turn on
> > archiving .
>
> Er? Where did I say that?
>As I said: while laudable, it has nothing to do with OCP being of
any
>value to anyone except Larry's and the "educator's" pockets.
Not being of any value or worthless could mean you get nothing from it
even the bare bone basics of Oracle.If worthless or not being of any
value have different meanings to us.Then in the strength of that alone
the need to read further would have been reduced to zero.
> > I am not trying to back any one here but there could be
> > students of yours who will be found wanting once you deviate the
> > least from the curriculum so why do you expect OCP,s to be different.
>
> There is no such thing as a "student of mine". I think you got me
> confused with someone else?
//You are right //
>
The point I have all along been making is that OCP is NOT
"worthless"
It might not have as much value it could have had "worthless" or not
being of any value does not quite fit.
>
> >
> > OCP should be the exception to life Right?Just as it is not possible
> > to correct other works of life I would think it is not possible to
> > correct OCP,s
>
> Good. Let's scrap the thing then. I think that's what Oracle is
> starting to do with this measure.
Should we then scrap all diplomas whose holders under-perform?
>
> > I cannot guarantee but you still produce students who are wanting once
> > you step on anything the least deviant from your curriculum.Once more
> > OCP should not be expected to be an exception
>
> I do not produce any students. No educational institution here.
> However, I do expect anyone with proper training to be able to read a
> manual and be able to deduce from basic principles acquired while
> studying what the heck is that manual all about. I see none of the sort
> in any1 with just OCP training.
Results may vary widely.There might be room for improvement in the
OCP setup but IMHO "worthless" " of no value" is over said.
Best wishes and Peace in 2003
Michael Tubuo Ngong(DBA)
Daniel Roy
of money/time/..., but I've seen cases when speaking to "DBAs" that
the only thought going through my mind was "should I tell them to
become certified, so that they at least knew some basic concepts?". I
know that there are some great DBAs out there who are not certified,
have never been, and will never be (we have some good examples among
this newsgroup participants). But there are others who are not
certified who clearly would benefit from going through the process. I
think getting certified is a great way of knowing what's possible with
Oracle, but generally without having to know in details HOW to do it.
I should also add that the study material also only displays one side
of the story, as Oracle's material will (almost) never discuss the
caveats/limitations of their products, and they put the emphasis on
the products they're trying to "push" (i.e. RMAN and Data Guard), even
if these products are not used that much. Even with these
certification's limitations, I still think it's useful. But I agree
that someone being certified does not guarantee a high degree of
competency necessarily (just look at these exam crams books, which are
probably sufficient to succeed the exams). I think that people who say
that the certification is useless have the chance to have worked with
non-certified DBAs who knew well their stuff. But trust me, if you saw
some of the DBAs I worked with (and had to rely on since they had the
DBA title besides their name and the system password, and I didn't),
you would agree with me.
Just my 2 cents
Daniel
OCP 8i
Pete Sharman
>
>Joel,
>
>FYI: There is a big difference between "Oracle Master" and "Oracle
>Certified Master."
>
>An Oracle Master is someone who paid (or whose company paid) for Oracle
>training. It doesn't say the person learned anything or even attended the
>class (other than to sign-in).
>
>On the other hand an "Oracle Certified Master" MIGHT BE getting closer to
>what Daniel desires (e.g. like a state run board test for lawyers, doctors,
>and engineers). The OCM requires you to:
>
>1) Be an Oracle 9i OCP (via the 4 exams or New Features exam)
>2) Take two advanced Oracle training classes (e.g. replication, advanced
>SQL, etc.)
>3) Take a two day practical exam where you build systems, implement
>features, and solve problems on real machines.
>
>The key is #3. The first two are nice and help you prepare but it is #3
>that might make the OCM very valuable. It would be nice to know more about
>the actual stuff covered, in order to judge its value.
>
>Personally, I look forward to taking (and God willing passing) the OCM exam,
>but only after studying and practicing for it.
>
>Bertram Moshier
>Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
>
>http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
Bertram
I've stayed out of this discussion until now because I didn't really see
anywhere I could add value, but this is something I can help with. Having been
through the OCM exam, I can tell you it's VERY worthwhile, not to mention bloody
exhausting! For more details, seen the 9i OCM DBA page at
http://www.oracle.com/education/certification/index.html?dba9i_ocm.html. It
includes a description of the practicum and an OCM FAQ, in addition to the
details you've already mentioned here.
Pete
>
>
>"Joel Garry" <joel-...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:91884734.0212...@posting.google.com...
>> DA Morgan <damo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
>news:<3E0B2C23...@exesolutions.com>...
>> > michael ngong wrote:
>> >
>> > From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
>> > university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
>> > attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
>> > to verify that they've ever heard your name before.
>>
>> So how about "Oracle Masters?" Making lemonade out of the OCP lemon,
>> or big revenue stream for Oracle?
>>
>> >
>> > Daniel Morgan
>>
>> jg
>
>
HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
Pete
SELECT standard_disclaimer, witty_remark FROM company_requirements;
Pete Sharman
There are a couple of things in this I wanted to comment on, just to make some
clarifications. I'll snip all the other stuff because this chain is already far
too long! :)
>We all know of the guys with 5 years "certified training and experience"
>in Forms V4.1, available on the market 6 months before that
>product reached production status...
Hmm, maybe a bit extreme! :) I do remember one occasion when a good friend of
mine was beaten for a job by someone who had more experience with Oracle7, when
that version had just come out. I was rather sceptical at that stage that
anyone had experience with Oracle7, but as it turned out I was wrong, because
the person who got the job was an Oracle employee looking to leave Oracle, and
they DID have more experience! I could say the same thing myself when 9i came
out. As the 9i lead for Consulting, I had been using 9i since its alpha
releases, so I had almost a year's experience before 9i went Production.
Unusual, I admit, but it can happen.
>
>What Oracle provided with OCP was a way for them to make $$$
>out of a real customer need. Never mind if it actually
>satisfied it. And of course it didn't go unnoticed that
>Oracle was getting into the services arena at the time and
>"implicitly" all their consultants would be "certified"
>(as opposed to the "great unwashed")...
Sorry, can't let this one pass. Oracle has been "in the services arena" for a
hell of a lot longer than the OCP has been around. Also, our consultants are
not "implicitly certified". We have to go through exactly the same process as
you guys do. The only difference is that we get a cheaper rate on the exams.
>
>Never mind that indeed most of their "consultants" had never
>even touched a database, let alone be trained on anything!
>Cripes, the place had such a turnaround back then there was barely
>enough time to train anyone before they got out on their
>own and formed their own corporation...
Sorry, wrong again, or at least it might be just your experience versus my
experience. I was in Oracle (though not Consulting) when the OCP came out, and
many of the consultants I worked with then are either still with Oracle or left
as part of the shakeout of the economic climate over the past couple of years.
I think if you look at the different types of consultants in Oracle, there are
more NON-technical consultants than there are technical - people like functional
Apps consultants, project managers and so on. Yes you can get these sorts of
consultants from Oracle, but should they be expected to know much about the
database? Probably not!
My $0.02 worth, FWIW! :)
Pete
>
>It would have been much, much simpler and more reliable if
>Oracle had instituted a certification program for those that
>PROVIDED education on their products. There were quite a
>few "doubtfull" ones. And I use the term losely.
>
>
>> I was a bit cantankerous about the details, arguing that the
>> tests seemed to be skewed against the more experienced, and am still a
>> bit surprised that the process turned out so much worse than I
>> predicted.
>>
>
>The process should never have taken place. It provided
>zero value to the user community.
>
>The day Oracle defines EXACTLY what does OCP mean and what does
>it EXACTLY qualify anyone as is the day the darn thing will
>deserve any respect.
>As a user, I want to know what I can use an OCP as.
>A developer? A designer? A mentor? An architect (heaven forbid!)
>A DBA? What the heck does it really mean and what am I getting
>for my money when I hire one?
>
>Until then it is simply a shameless money-grabbing scheme.
>
>--
>Cheers
>Nuno Souto
>nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam
HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
Niall Litchfield
news:aupvg...@drn.newsguy.com...
> Bertram
>
> I've stayed out of this discussion until now because I didn't really see
> anywhere I could add value, but this is something I can help with. Having
been
> through the OCM exam, I can tell you it's VERY worthwhile, not to mention
bloody
> exhausting!
I'm assuming that you are saying that it s very worthwhile *as an
educational tool*, as opposed to as a resume enhancing device. I'm sure that
you are correct, I'm unsure if employers will see it that way.
Incidentally if people can get their employers to stump up for the training
then that is most certainly worthwhile, even if the resulting certification
leaves much to be desired. For me Oracle education, these newsgroups and the
docs have been the best education around, and in approximately equal
measure.
Frank
> Daniel,
>
> During a recent interview, I had a chance to ask questions. I always ask
> about continuing education (e.g. time to study areas not covered by the job,
> next release, Usenet newsgroup, Oracle classes, etc.), writing papers, and
> attending Oracle conferences.
>
> The manager looked at me and replied, "I've been doing databases for over
> 15 years, Oracle, MS-SQL Server, SAP, PeopleSoft, IBM DB2, etc., and I
> learned one thing. Database don't change. There is nothing more than four
> things in a database, INSERT, DELETE, UPDATE, and" By this point, I was
> tuning him out and making a not so positive opinion. It was obvious to him
> training and staying current is not important.
>
> I decided pass on this permanent opportunity.
>
> Bertram Moshier
> Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
>
> http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
>
>
I wouldn't hire you... You seem to miss the ability to shift hats
and be seated on a developers' or users' chair. I value that - the
manager interviewing you was obviously looking at it from a developers'
point of view, and he's is right... to some extent (or extend? initial
extent... extend management... oh heck), of course there are beautiful
things like the returning clause on in insert.
Anyway - I would have applauded an effort to convince the hiring manager
that database Administration (you were applying for a DBA's job, weren't
you?) has changed massively the last 15 years. For Oracle, at least,
can't comment on SQL Server (didn't exist 15 years back...).
And yes the captial A on Administration is not a typo; is more a chapeau
to all real DBA's out there.
Grtz, Frank (who is sometimes regarded a DBA, but reading these ng's is
always reminded he isn't - and I admit it)
Joel Garry
> "Steve Jorgensen" <nos...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
> > On Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:23:41 -0000, "Paul Brewer"
> > <pa...@paul.brewers.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
> > >news:998d28f7.0212...@posting.google.com...
> > >> Greetings,
> > >>
> > >> I have heard a rumor that the Oracle9i OCP SQL exam is unproctored:
> > >>
> > >> "The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
> > >> unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet
> > >> access, proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment,
> > >> at an Oracle University Training Center or Authorized Prometric
> > >> Testing Center."
> > >>
> > >> Because there is no guarantee that the person taking the exam is the
> > >> same person who registered for the exam, many DBAs feel that this
> > >> practice degrades the value of Oracle certification, and makes it even
> > >> more worthless than before.
> > >>
> > >> Comments?
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Worthless to whom?
>
> To the industry.
>
> Employers worth working for know it's a heap of doo-dah. Employers who think
> it means something aren't worth working for.
So are you saying Oracle isn't worth working for, or that Oracle knows
it's a heap of doo-dah?
>
> Regards
> HJR
>
>
>
> >
> > I'm someone with extensive background in MS SQL Server. In my case,
> > shouldn't Oracle certification show that I've learned the specifics of
> > Oracle, and thus be of great value in conjunction with my long
> > background in relational databases when I apply for a job using
> > Oracle? To me, the Oracle exam as it has stood until now sounded
> > worthwhile, and this unproctored thing is bothersome to me as I have
> > yet to take the exams and obtain my certification.
jg
--
@home is bogus.
Joel Garry
> >
> >Joel,
> >
> >FYI: There is a big difference between "Oracle Master" and "Oracle
> >Certified Master."
> >
> >An Oracle Master is someone who paid (or whose company paid) for Oracle
> >training. It doesn't say the person learned anything or even attended the
> >class (other than to sign-in).
> >
> >On the other hand an "Oracle Certified Master" MIGHT BE getting closer to
> >what Daniel desires (e.g. like a state run board test for lawyers, doctors,
> >and engineers). The OCM requires you to:
> >
> >1) Be an Oracle 9i OCP (via the 4 exams or New Features exam)
> >2) Take two advanced Oracle training classes (e.g. replication, advanced
> >SQL, etc.)
> >3) Take a two day practical exam where you build systems, implement
> >features, and solve problems on real machines.
I implement features and solve problems on real machines all the time.
I've been doing it for decades. Why should I pay Oracle to say I've
done it? They should pay me to say I've done it!
> >
> >The key is #3. The first two are nice and help you prepare but it is #3
> >that might make the OCM very valuable. It would be nice to know more about
> >the actual stuff covered, in order to judge its value.
> >
> >Personally, I look forward to taking (and God willing passing) the OCM exam,
> >but only after studying and practicing for it.
> >
> >Bertram Moshier
> >Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
> >
> >http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
>
> Bertram
>
> I've stayed out of this discussion until now because I didn't really see
> anywhere I could add value, but this is something I can help with. Having been
> through the OCM exam, I can tell you it's VERY worthwhile, not to mention bloody
> exhausting! For more details, seen the 9i OCM DBA page at
> http://www.oracle.com/education/certification/index.html?dba9i_ocm.html. It
> includes a description of the practicum and an OCM FAQ, in addition to the
> details you've already mentioned here.
o.com>Participants will not be allowed to use personal documentation
or notes
o.com>during the practicum nor will they be permitted to collaborate
with
o.com>other participants
Well, I've always had an issue with _that_ as a predictor of
real-world performance! Maybe if the performance is giving classes
and being buttonholed by students... Even in jobs I've had where I've
been expected to sit in a corner and program, working with the docs
and collaborating with the rest of the world has been more important
than technical memorization.
Let's see, business travel to Chicago ~$1000, a week off work $2400,
hotel stay ~$600, what am I forgetting... oh yeah, $2000 for the test!
6 grand for what???
If someone wants to give me a job and pay for it, fine, I'd even pay
for it myself if someone would guarantee me a year's contract out of
it, but from what I've seen of the current job market there's no added
value for those who are not bleeding-edge rah-rahs. And the marketing
sounds _just like_ the original OCP marketing.
>
> Pete
> >
> >
> >"Joel Garry" <joel-...@home.com> wrote in message
> >news:91884734.0212...@posting.google.com...
> >> DA Morgan <damo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> news:<3E0B2C23...@exesolutions.com>...
> >> > michael ngong wrote:
> >> >
> >> > From that standpoint the OCP doesn't cut it. After you graduate from a
> >> > university you an employer can phone the university and verify you
> >> > attended and your graduation. Call Oracle after you pass the OCP and try
> >> > to verify that they've ever heard your name before.
> >>
> >> So how about "Oracle Masters?" Making lemonade out of the OCP lemon,
> >> or big revenue stream for Oracle?
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Daniel Morgan
> >>
> >> jg
> >
> >
>
> HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
>
> Pete
>
> SELECT standard_disclaimer, witty_remark FROM company_requirements;
jg
--
@home is bogus.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/mon/business/news_mz1b30lair.html
Pete Sharman
>
>"Pete Sharman" <peter....@oracle.com> wrote in message
>news:aupvg...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> Bertram
>>
>> I've stayed out of this discussion until now because I didn't really see
>> anywhere I could add value, but this is something I can help with. Having
>been
>> through the OCM exam, I can tell you it's VERY worthwhile, not to mention
>bloody
>> exhausting!
>
>I'm assuming that you are saying that it s very worthwhile *as an
>educational tool*, as opposed to as a resume enhancing device. I'm sure that
>you are correct, I'm unsure if employers will see it that way.
Just to clarify what I meant, rather than extend the discussion further since
it's already just rehashing previous discussions, what I meant was that it is
very worthwhile as a tool to PROVE that you can DO the things that are tested
for, rather than just being able to answer questions about a topic. You simply
can't get through the OCM without a lot of practical experience ergo it's a tool
that shows your SKILL as well as your knowledge. That to me is useful as an
educational tool and to employers. Very few interviews that I've ever been
involved with (on either side) have actually done that.
Pete
>
>Incidentally if people can get their employers to stump up for the training
>then that is most certainly worthwhile, even if the resulting certification
>leaves much to be desired. For me Oracle education, these newsgroups and the
>docs have been the best education around, and in approximately equal
>measure.
>
>
>--
>Niall Litchfield
>Oracle DBA
>Audit Commission UK
>*****************************************
>Please include version and platform
>and SQL where applicable
>It makes life easier and increases the
>likelihood of a good answer
>******************************************
>
>
HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
Bert Bear
WOW! You really took a lot from this first impression.
In my career, I have been a software developer, an end-user, a trainer, a
team leader, a DBA, systems (IBM VM, Cray UNICOS, and IBM OS/2)
administrator, planner, customer support, and many other positions. No, I
don't change jobs often; I just have the ability to do more than one job.
I spent 10 years at Cray Research, where product development is like
building a Royals Royce. A team takes a product/feature from requirements
through product release. As the team leader, I had to be able to talk to
end-users, managers, develop design documents, plan the project, keep track
of the project, write the code, write the documentation (internal and
external), unit test, integrate the code, work with system testers, go on
alpha and beta tests, train the end-users, and finally support the code in
the field. The product we were working at Cray on covered 8 manuals, dozens
of design documents, well over 1.25 million lines of IBM 370/390 Assembler
code, etc. Hell, my team even got a Shell Quality Award for our STK4400 to
Cray feature.
Actually, I pride myself on being able to wear many hats at the same time.
But I'm sure you still see me missing the ability to shift hats and
understand a developer or end-user's perspective. Sorry, but I feel you
don't have the ability to judge people so completely from three paragraphs.
Bert.
"Frank" <fbo...@home.nl> wrote in message news:3E10BA14...@home.nl...
Bert Bear
I don't know where Don got the quote, I learn it from the URL:
http://www.oracle.com/education/certification/index.html?dba9i_oca.html
where it says:
"Introduction to Oracle9i: SQL (#1Z0-007)
This is an online exam. It is also available at Oracle University or
Authorized Prometric Test Centers."
and from the URL:
http://www.oracle.com/education/certification/index.html?onlinetest.html
where it says:
"The new exam is un-proctored, meaning that you can take the exam
unsupervised at your own location. If you do not have good internet access,
proctored exams are delivered in a secure testing environment, at an Oracle
University Training Center or Authorized Prometric Testing Center."
Bertram Moshier
Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
"Niall Litchfield" <niall.li...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3e0dbee3$0$230$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
Frank
> Frank,
>
> WOW! You really took a lot from this first impression.
>
> In my career, I have been a software developer, an end-user, a trainer, a
> team leader, a DBA, systems (IBM VM, Cray UNICOS, and IBM OS/2)
> administrator, planner, customer support, and many other positions. No, I
> don't change jobs often; I just have the ability to do more than one job.
>
> I spent 10 years at Cray Research, where product development is like
> building a Royals Royce. A team takes a product/feature from requirements
> through product release. As the team leader, I had to be able to talk to
> end-users, managers, develop design documents, plan the project, keep track
> of the project, write the code, write the documentation (internal and
> external), unit test, integrate the code, work with system testers, go on
> alpha and beta tests, train the end-users, and finally support the code in
> the field. The product we were working at Cray on covered 8 manuals, dozens
> of design documents, well over 1.25 million lines of IBM 370/390 Assembler
> code, etc. Hell, my team even got a Shell Quality Award for our STK4400 to
> Cray feature.
>
> Actually, I pride myself on being able to wear many hats at the same time.
>
> But I'm sure you still see me missing the ability to shift hats and
> understand a developer or end-user's perspective. Sorry, but I feel you
> don't have the ability to judge people so completely from three paragraphs.
>
> Bert.
mentioned my attempt to enlighten this particular manager. He is still
in the dark ages. I certainly would have reacted on this stupidity.
If it still boils down to the same attitude (no education, databases
don't change), I would have come to the same conclusion you did.
Only the fact you did not mention such an attempt triggered me
to respond.
No pun intended. I value your contributions to this ng.
Happy 2003! Frank
Noons
> Nuno, or is it Noons now? :)
Nuno is the name, Noons is the handle. At least until
I can re-learn this darn Usenet program! Registry meltdown
followed by loss of program functionality...
Not important, you can use whatever! :D
>
>>We all know of the guys with 5 years "certified training and experience"
>>in Forms V4.1, available on the market 6 months before that
>>product reached production status...
>
> Hmm, maybe a bit extreme! :)
Extreme? It is in the Australian of the time (1996 IIRC),
an add asking for them and answered shortly after. I called in
just to find out what the heck it was all about. Only to be
told the "positions had been taken by people with the requested
experience"! I'd love to know how the heck did they get that
experience or how the heck was it checked...
> friend of mine was beaten for a job by someone who had more experience
> with Oracle7, when that version had just come out. I was rather
Well, it's happening again with 9i. But that's normal.
The bit about Forms I found just w-a-a-a-y over the top!
> I had almost a year's experience before 9i went Production. Unusual, I
> admit, but it can happen.
Sure. Just not EVERYTIME there is a new release of Oracle. That
was the problem here.
> Sorry, can't let this one pass. Oracle has been "in the services arena"
> for a hell of a lot longer than the OCP has been around. Also, our
> consultants are not "implicitly certified". We have to go through
> exactly the same process as you guys do. The only difference is that we
> get a cheaper rate on the exams.
Tell that to the Australian version... Dunno if it still is,
but it sure was like that, for a long time. BTW the vast majority
of them were never OCP'ed! (Thank God for that too!)
Back in the old times of you know who. I won't go into the
name of the person involved, but if you need to know I can
provide the blood and guts over e-mail.
>
> My $0.02 worth, FWIW! :)
>
Hey! Nothing wrong with that in my book! :D
>>
>>The day Oracle defines EXACTLY what does OCP mean and what does
>>it EXACTLY qualify anyone as is the day the darn thing will
>>deserve any respect.
This is still my biggest bone with the whole concept.
What precisely do I get when I hire an OCP? A DBA? A designer?
A developer? A what, exactly? What is an OCP certified at?
Being a "professional"? Sorry, you don't need a certification
for that.
Being an "Oracle Professional"? At what? The skills for a
DBA are completely different from those for a designer, from
those of a developer, from those of a system analyst, etc.
Being a "credible professional"? Heck, the last thing
IT needs is one of these: it's an industry so unregulated
by independent bodies it would by definition be wide open
for abuse by whomever had the deepest pockets.
No, I really can't see any value in the OCP as it is now.
Of course IME, IMHO, YMMV, no animals hurt testing these products, etcetc.
BTW: Happy New Year.
Noons
>> >
>> >On the other hand an "Oracle Certified Master" MIGHT BE getting closer
>> >to what Daniel desires (e.g. like a state run board test for lawyers,
>> >doctors, and engineers). The OCM requires you to:
No, it is not closer. The BIG, ENORMOUS difference is that one is
run by a state board, independent of any maker. The other isn't.
The old story of conflict of interest comes up.
>
> I implement features and solve problems on real machines all the time.
> I've been doing it for decades. Why should I pay Oracle to say I've
> done it? They should pay me to say I've done it!
This is actually a very good point, even though at first sight
it might sound like sour grapes.
> for it myself if someone would guarantee me a year's contract out of
> it, but from what I've seen of the current job market there's no added
> value for those who are not bleeding-edge rah-rahs. And the marketing
Exactly. None whatsoever. The market is still as keyword
and BS oriented as it ever was. This is just an added cost.
> sounds _just like_ the original OCP marketing.
Bingo. MOTS.
Noons
news:1b061893.02123...@posting.google.com and I quote:
> non-certified DBAs who knew well their stuff. But trust me, if you saw
> some of the DBAs I worked with (and had to rely on since they had the
> DBA title besides their name and the system password, and I didn't),
> you would agree with me.
That is a very good point. Unfortunately, I don't think
the OCP in its current form is gonna change that one bit.
It's an attitude problem, not a qualification problem.
It shows itself as a lack of qualifications, sure.
Noons
news:ecf365d5.02123...@posting.google.com and I quote:
>>
>> Good. Let's scrap the thing then. I think that's what Oracle is
>> starting to do with this measure.
>
> Should we then scrap all diplomas whose holders under-perform?
If they are run by the maker of such subjects and without any
formal definitioon of the final qualification obtained, yes.
You see, while Oracle insists on not exactly defining and specialising
the OCP the whole thing will always be bogus. You can't just "declare"
a certification as valid just because you happen to be the main
manufacturer of the subject of the certification. (well, actually you
*can*, but then you gotta be prepared for some flak...)
Compare this for example with the Cisco certifications. They are
VERY well defined and they cover the industry area, not the individual
products or specific versions. You know exactly what it is that
you are being certified as and it will be as valid tomorrow when a new
version of whatever comes in, as it is today. It is not a version
of a product. It is a specific *area* of IT *knowledge* that you are
being certified at. Any wonder why they are so respected in the industry?
If Oracle ran their "certifications" like Cisco runs theirs, I'd have
no objection whatsoever. We'd have a DBA certification, NOT linked
to ANY version of Oracle. And a Designer one. And a Forms Developer one.
And so on. Each covering specific requirements that are expected of ANY
DBA. ANY designer. ANY developer.
As is, the whole thing is a joke. And the Master's thing is just MOTS.
> Results may vary widely.There might be room for improvement in the
> OCP setup but IMHO "worthless" " of no value" is over said.
I do understand and accept your point.
>
> Best wishes and Peace in 2003
Amen!
Joel Garry
> In article <3e109f82$0$227$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>, "Niall says...
> >
> >"Pete Sharman" <peter....@oracle.com> wrote in message
> >news:aupvg...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >> Bertram
> >>
> >> I've stayed out of this discussion until now because I didn't really see
> >> anywhere I could add value, but this is something I can help with. Having
> been
> >> through the OCM exam, I can tell you it's VERY worthwhile, not to mention
> bloody
> >> exhausting!
> >
> >I'm assuming that you are saying that it s very worthwhile *as an
> >educational tool*, as opposed to as a resume enhancing device. I'm sure that
> >you are correct, I'm unsure if employers will see it that way.
>
> Just to clarify what I meant, rather than extend the discussion further since
> it's already just rehashing previous discussions, what I meant was that it is
> very worthwhile as a tool to PROVE that you can DO the things that are tested
> for, rather than just being able to answer questions about a topic. You simply
> can't get through the OCM without a lot of practical experience ergo it's a tool
> that shows your SKILL as well as your knowledge. That to me is useful as an
> educational tool and to employers. Very few interviews that I've ever been
> involved with (on either side) have actually done that.
Now, where have I heard that before?
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&th=566f08129270dbf3&rnum=1
>
> Pete
> >
> >Incidentally if people can get their employers to stump up for the training
> >then that is most certainly worthwhile, even if the resulting certification
> >leaves much to be desired. For me Oracle education, these newsgroups and the
> >docs have been the best education around, and in approximately equal
> >measure.
> >
> >
> >--
Hear, hear.
jg
--
@home is bogus.
"Hal, please turn on the heater."
"I can't do that Dave, you're too warm."
Bert Bear
"Noons" <nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:Xns92F6228EA63...@210.49.20.254...
> joel-...@home.com (Joel Garry) wrote in
> news:91884734.02123...@posting.google.com and I quote:
>
> >> >
> >> >On the other hand an "Oracle Certified Master" MIGHT BE getting closer
> >> >to what Daniel desires (e.g. like a state run board test for lawyers,
> >> >doctors, and engineers). The OCM requires you to:
>
>
> No, it is not closer. The BIG, ENORMOUS difference is that one is
> run by a state board, independent of any maker. The other isn't.
> The old story of conflict of interest comes up.
Ah, nothing in the computer industry meets your requirement of a state
board, independent of any maker. Why should employers / industry hold
Oracle DBAs to a higher standard than other IT professionals?
Obviously, you'd be in favor of requiring programmers to have state licenses
(which might not be a bad idea) and to require malpractice insurance, etc.
Oh, and BTW, when I was in my 20s I looked around for state sponsored
computer board tests. People thought I was crazy. I hope you have better
luck.
Bert Bear
At a minimum an OCP shows the person has enough interest in being a DBA to
get a rounded Oracle education.
At this point in time, anyone (e.g. an used car salesman) can say hmmm, what
might pay better and start calling himself an Oracle DBA.
When I see an used car salesman who passed these test it shows me, that this
used car salesman AT LEAST:
1) Read the manuals (or paid for an Oracle class or two) .vs. the other
used car salesman who didn't
2) Retained enough information to pass the exams
3) Show enough interest in being an Oracle to take the time to study and
pass the exams .vs. the other used car salesman who didn't.
IMHO, an OCP is one of many things you must take into consideration when
choosing an employee. It is NOT a golden key to the Oracle DBA washroom.
I can only speak from personal experience. After working with Oracle
products (DBA, OAS, Applications, etc.) for 5 years, I found getting the OCP
helped me round out my knowledge of the Oracle database. Studying for it
helped me cover areas my management never needed me to cover. As one person
said (in another thread), management normally upgrades for support (not the
new features, which they might never use). He went on to say many software
products still only use Oracle 7 features and nothing more. By having an
OCP, I know the person has at least an interest beyond saying "I have an
interest." He should also have a general, detailed understanding of the
Oracle database.
Bertram Moshier
Oracle Certified Professional 8i and 9i DBA
http://www.bmoshier.net/bertram
"Noons" <nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:Xns92F623B3C33...@210.49.20.254...
Howard J. Rogers
DBA, claiming two versions' certification, can't even understand the
difference between redo log multiplexing and redo log mirroring and
demonstrates as much in postings to this newsgroup; or can't even read the
Oracle documentation properly where the difference (and the preference) is
pointed out in words of not very many more than one syllable; well, what
does that tell you about the value of the OCP?
So much for a "rounded" education.
Personally, if a person doesn't know how to do a block dump and interpret
the results properly, s/he shouldn't call himself/herself a DBA. And if
there's one thing you won't learn on any OCP-based Oracle training course,
it's how to do a block dump.
HJR
"Bert Bear" <bert...@NOSPAMbertbear.net> wrote in message
news:PftQ9.6106$Zo5.2795633889@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Noons
> Ah, nothing in the computer industry meets your requirement of a state
> board, independent of any maker. Why should employers / industry hold
> Oracle DBAs to a higher standard than other IT professionals?
Last I looked DBAs were taking care of the most valuable
piece of information in any company: its databases. If that is not
worth a certification based on an independent body, what is?
>
> Obviously, you'd be in favor of requiring programmers to have state
> licenses (which might not be a bad idea) and to require malpractice
> insurance, etc.
Just like any other *professionals*. The point is:
Oracle can't call this thing "Certified Professional" in
its current format. It's an insult to people who have to be
professionally certified, in other industries.
The only way to get the proper salary recognition in future,
in a tight market like it's gonna be. Think about it.
>
> Oh, and BTW, when I was in my 20s I looked around for state sponsored
> computer board tests. People thought I was crazy. I hope you have
> better luck.
>
I'm not looking around for anything, my 20's are long gone
and my career is more near retirement than anything else.
But that doesn't mean I have to gobble down the latest
marketing plot for a quick money grab, without a whisper
against it!
Bert Bear
Why are you holding Oracle to a higher standard than the other members of
the computer industry?
It is OUTSIDE of Oracle's ability to make the OCP (or something like it)
state issued. The only way to do this is for you (and others) to go to
YOUR/THIER local state government and get them excited enough to create and
then require certification!!
Till a state says IT (programmers, administrators, etc.) needs state
certification, the best we have is industry certification.
Hey! Why don't you look at running for office and making this a campaign
issue?! Baring running for office, point out IT problems where state
certification would solve the problem. Basically, you need to get elected
officials to see the need. The best we can do is help you encourage the
various states.
Bert.
"Noons" <nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
news:Xns92F7A3EB8F...@210.49.20.254...
DA Morgan
It is worse than you think Howard.
Last year I inteviewed someone that is an employee of the City of Seattle. This
person had been an Oracle DBA for three years. They failed the following
question:
Write a SQL statement with an inner join on the whiteboard and then convert
inner join to a left outer join.
They couldn't even write the inner join.
Did they get the job transfer within the city they wanted? No. Well until 3
months later when they tried again and were interviewed by other city employees.
Daniel Morgan
Niall Litchfield
news:AGGQ9.6238$0Q1.291...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> Till a state says IT (programmers, administrators, etc.) needs state
> certification, the best we have is industry certification.
Interestingly in the UK, I can't speak for the States or for Oz, most the
*professions* run the training/exam system for members of the professions.
This applies for Lawyers,Accountants etc. Rather than look to the State, I
would wish to look to Industry bodies that had the clout to be recognized
(and didn't just represent large supplier interests). You'd also get away
from the entirely daft notion that you were an Oracle 8i or MSSQL 7 DBA and
towards the fact that you were a DBA (or developer or what have you). They
don't certify Accountants in the use of Sage or Pocket calculators (and
certainly not in Excel). they train and test them in Accounting/Auditing
etc.
If this line of argument has any merit (and despite Howard's injunctions
against posting experience) I am both a part-qualified ACA and an OCP which
I hope gives me some insight, then we should be moving away from software
features based testing to testing and developing professional IT skills.
Things I'd suggest (from a DBA view point) would include
Database Design
Physical Storage characteristics
Security principles
Set Operations vs Procedural Loops and when to use which.
Backup Principles
What is a transaction?
Change Management
SQL
The development lifecycle
I'm sure others can add/scratch from the above list.
Niall Litchfield
> Personally, if a person doesn't know how to do a block dump and interpret
> the results properly, s/he shouldn't call himself/herself a DBA. And if
> there's one thing you won't learn on any OCP-based Oracle training course,
> it's how to do a block dump.
Methinks that goes a little far, I'm not entirely sure (from a day to day
DBA view point) how often one would need the information in the dump below
(not original cause it was filched from Jonathan but it will boost that OCR
rating!)
Wed Jan 6 14:13:15 1999
Start dump data blocks tsn: 4 file#: 5 minblk 604 maxblk 604
buffer tsn: 4 rdba: 0x0140025c (5/604)
scn:0x0000.00060e9a seq:0x03 flg:0x00 tail:0x0e9a1703
frmt:0x02 chkval:0x0000 type:0x17=BITMAPPED DATA SEGMENT HEADER
Extent Control Header
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Extent Header:: spare1: 0 tsn: 4 #extents: 18 #blocks: 93
last map rdba: 0x00000000 #maps: 0 offset: 1056
Highwater:: rdba: 0x0140023e ext#: 17 blk#: 5 ext size: 5
#blocks in seg. hdr's freelists: 0
#blocks below: 93
mapblk rdba: 0x00000000 offset: 17
Unlocked
Map Header:: next rdba: 0x00000000 #extents: 18 obj#: 16068 flag:
0x40000000
Extent Map
-----------------------------------------------------------------
rdba: 0x0140025e length: 8
rdba: 0x014000bb length: 5
rdba: 0x01400084 length: 5
rdba: 0x01400106 length: 5
rdba: 0x01400057 length: 5
rdba: 0x01400020 length: 5
rdba: 0x014000d4 length: 5
rdba: 0x01400257 length: 5
rdba: 0x014000c0 length: 5
rdba: 0x014000f7 length: 5
rdba: 0x0140004d length: 5
rdba: 0x014000b6 length: 5
rdba: 0x0140023e length: 5
rdba: 0x014000a7 length: 5
rdba: 0x01400101 length: 5
rdba: 0x0140010b length: 5
rdba: 0x014000ed length: 5
rdba: 0x01400239 length: 5
block size = 2024, nfb = 2, type = 3
fatblk = 1, states = 2
End dump data blocks tsn: 4 file#: 5 minblk 604 maxblk 604
Howard J. Rogers
> "Bert Bear" <bert...@NOSPAMbertbear.net> wrote in message
> news:AGGQ9.6238$0Q1.291...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> If this line of argument has any merit (and despite Howard's injunctions
> against posting experience)
Er, I don't ever recall injuncting anything along those lines.
What I object to is the *parading* of experience, as if that meant the
content of one's posts was inevitably correct and beyond reproach. Or the
flaunting of large amounts of (what turns out to be totally irrelevant)
experience, and then *still* making basic errors of principle.
You've never done that Niall. As the continuation of your paragraph shows,
you quote experience when it's germane to the point being made.
>I am both a part-qualified ACA and an OCP which
> I hope gives me some insight, then we should be moving away from software
> features based testing to testing and developing professional IT skills.
> Things I'd suggest (from a DBA view point) would include
>
> Database Design
> Physical Storage characteristics
> Security principles
> Set Operations vs Procedural Loops and when to use which.
> Backup Principles
> What is a transaction?
> Change Management
> SQL
> The development lifecycle
>
Well, as a member of the Australian Computer Society, these are exactly the
sorts of things you get examined in prior to acquiring membership. There are
several written papers, and if memory serves, not a multi-choice/multi-guess
paper amongst them.
I'm positive the British Computer Society has the same sort of membership
requirements.
There *are* industry recognised *professional* qualifications out there. But
OCP isn't one of them.
Regards
HJR
Don Burleson
I always ask the DBA if they know how to take a dump . . .
******************************
Anyway, that is an intriguing idea about Government-sponsored
certification.
Here is the USA, certification bodies require a Graduate College
Degree for
1 - Bar certification (law)
2 - Medical certification (board certified MD)
3 – Engineering (Civil and EE)
Can you imagine the brouhaha if Oracle Corporation required OCPs to
have a formal education?
DB
"Niall Litchfield" <niall.li...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message news:<3e136ce1$0$234$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>...
Bert Bear
You mean something like:
select empno, ename, dname from dept d, emp e where d.deptno = e.deptno; OR
select empno, ename, dname, loc from dept d inner join emp e on e.deptno =
d.deptno;
and
select empno, ename, dname, loc from dept d, emp e where e.deptno(+) =
d.deptno; OR select empno, ename, dname, loc from dept d left outer join emp
e on e.deptno = d.deptno;
----
To be more serious, apprenticeships have their values as if you value the
Master who "graduates" the person then you have a GREAT certification.
hmmm, maybe what we start to needs is the: comp.database.oracle
certification
You need to spend two years in apprenticeship to Daniel or other DBA we know
is good. If they give you their blessing, you get the certification.
Maybe Oracle needs to start an apprenticeship. Work for Oracle for free (or
minimum wage or pay Oracle like people pay colleges) for two years. Hey, it
might make more money for Oracle than the OCP. Maybe I should shutup before
it happens. ;-)
Bert.
"DA Morgan" <damo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:3E136318...@exesolutions.com...
Niall Litchfield
>
> "Niall Litchfield" <niall.li...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
> news:3e136b64$0$226$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> > "Bert Bear" <bert...@NOSPAMbertbear.net> wrote in message
> > news:AGGQ9.6238$0Q1.291...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> [big snip]
> >
> > If this line of argument has any merit (and despite Howard's injunctions
> > against posting experience)
>
> Er, I don't ever recall injuncting anything along those lines.
>
> What I object to is the *parading* of experience, as if that meant the
> content of one's posts was inevitably correct and beyond reproach.
Point taken.
Niall Litchfield
the
> sorts of things you get examined in prior to acquiring membership. There
are
> several written papers, and if memory serves, not a
multi-choice/multi-guess
> paper amongst them.
>
> I'm positive the British Computer Society has the same sort of membership
> requirements.
I believe it does and suspect these might well be the way to go however...
> There *are* industry recognised *professional* qualifications out there.
But
> OCP isn't one of them.
I can't recall *ever* seeing a job ad that required the candidate to be a
member of (or part qualified member of if such a thing exists) the BCS. I'd
be surprised if the same wasn't true in Oz. The number of jobs that
apparently *require* OCP/MCSE/CCNE on the other hand is relatively large -
at least as advertised. In my book that means that the industry doesn't
recognise general principles and a professional approach but does recognise
skillsets. It is left to the reader to guess wether i think that this has
anything to do with the generally abysmal record of the industry in doing
its work, when compared to lawyers,engineers,accountants, teachers etc.
Noons
>
> Why are you holding Oracle to a higher standard than the other members of
> the computer industry?
Who said I hold only Oracle? I've been pushing for official
recognition of IT qualifications independent of maker and version
for more years than I care to mention. IBM, Microsoft, Novell,
Oracle and a few more on the way. Has it got me anywhere?
Nope. But I keep pushing. That's the whole idea.
One day the industry might wake up...
> state issued. The only way to do this is for you (and others) to go to
> YOUR/THIER local state government and get them excited enough to create and
> then require certification!!
No. That is not the only option. Last I looked, there are
quite a few professional certifications out there that are not
state sponsored. They are set by independent industry bodies.
IEEE, BCS, ACS, etcetc. Relatively independent bodies who
don't follow the "latest version" rubbish.
>
> Hey! Why don't you look at running for office and making this a campaign
> issue?!
Hate politicians. I'd end up hating myself...
Noons
>
> Interestingly in the UK, I can't speak for the States or for Oz, most the
> *professions* run the training/exam system for members of the professions.
> This applies for Lawyers,Accountants etc. Rather than look to the State, I
> would wish to look to Industry bodies that had the clout to be recognized
> (and didn't just represent large supplier interests).
Bingo!
> You'd also get away
> from the entirely daft notion that you were an Oracle 8i or MSSQL 7 DBA and
> towards the fact that you were a DBA (or developer or what have you). They
> don't certify Accountants in the use of Sage or Pocket calculators (and
> certainly not in Excel). they train and test them in Accounting/Auditing
> etc.
Amen!
>
> I hope gives me some insight, then we should be moving away from software
> features based testing to testing and developing professional IT skills.
Absolutely. It's the only thing that cannot be faked.
> Things I'd suggest (from a DBA view point) would include
>
> Database Design
I'm not sure about this sort of thing. I tend to separate
DBAs by type of work. The idea of the DBA-God that knows
about everything is more akin to an earlier era where we
could actually catch up with all the technology. Nowadays,
that's impossible. I'd separate a development DBA from a
production DBA. The prod DBA doesn't need to know about
design. But he/she needs to know about the others:
> Physical Storage characteristics
> Security principles
> Set Operations vs Procedural Loops and when to use which.
> Backup Principles
> What is a transaction?
Design.
> Change Management
> SQL
> The development lifecycle
Design.
Noons
news:998d28f7.03010...@posting.google.com and I quote:
> Here is the USA, certification bodies require a Graduate College
> Degree for
>
> 1 - Bar certification (law)
> 2 - Medical certification (board certified MD)
> 3 – Engineering (Civil and EE)
Yeah, but those are very general qualifications.
I'm talking more vertical.
>
> Can you imagine the brouhaha if Oracle Corporation required OCPs to
> have a formal education?
>
Well, as always: define "OCP"?
For a DBA, I can't see why a formal education in some related
discipline wouldn't be desirable. I sincerely doubt that someone
with a degree in ancient egyptology or reaal estate selling
would ever become a DBA. Other than as an "OCP"...
But I can see an actuary, or an engineer, becoming one.
One problem is we tend to equate OCP with DBA. Nothing is
further from the truth. And there should not only be a formal
recognition of DBA. Designers, programmers, analysts, all are
more than overdue for some form of industry recognition. In a
little more than just the "flavour-of-the-jour" in technology or
the latest version of whatever.
Noons
>
> I can't recall *ever* seeing a job ad that required the candidate to be a
> member of (or part qualified member of if such a thing exists) the BCS. I'd
> be surprised if the same wasn't true in Oz.
Actually, for a while in the 80's membership of the ACS was
desirable for certain jobs here. I still recall seeing quite a
few adds askign for Analysts with ACS membership. Unfortunately
back then, the ACS was run by people with vested interests.
The result was a degradationn of the ACS membership significance
to the same level of the OCP.
It's getting better now, but it's gonna take a while.
> at least as advertised. In my book that means that the industry doesn't
> recognise general principles and a professional approach but does recognise
> skillsets.
Only because there is no alternative. It's just like any other industry,
no matter how much glamour we'd like to put into it.
> It is left to the reader to guess wether i think that this has
> anything to do with the generally abysmal record of the industry in doing
> its work, when compared to lawyers,engineers,accountants, teachers etc.
And then there are people surprised we get into "recessions"
and other problems. Which are nothing more nothing less than
a typical purge of undesirable elements.
I'm reminded of a pollster who approached me on holydays a
while ago. You know the type: they ask you a certain number
of questions and the results go into TV ratings and such.
This guy asked me what I worked at. When I said "computer
software", he exclaimed: "Ah! A colleague!". He then proceeded
to explain how he had taken a 6 month course on TAFE (tertiary
fast education) on web-design. And having found it impossible
to find a job, he had gone back to study to become a librarian.
Now I may be wrong, but the Macquarie Dictionary classifies
the word colleague as follows:
"an associate in office, professional work, etc"
This guy had trained for 6 months, never actually having held
a job in IT. But he was my "colleague"!!!
Never mind I spent years training, still do, and will do.
Paid for out of my own pocket. And have been in IT since 1974.
Yes Howard: eggsperience is not to be paraded. But it counts.
It's called "seat-of-the-pants" feel. Saves time and money.
Wanna bet 3 years ago this bloke would have found a job?
Back then I wouldn't be able to work in "web-design"...
At least this guy had taken a TAFE course, which has minor
recognition. Many others didn't even bother with that...
Thank God for the "recession"! We might (finally!) get rid
of the "colleagues"...
Fred Pierce
<niall.li...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>news:_rAQ9.14176$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>> Personally, if a person doesn't know how to do a block dump and interpret
>> the results properly, s/he shouldn't call himself/herself a DBA. And if
>> there's one thing you won't learn on any OCP-based Oracle training course,
>> it's how to do a block dump.
>
>Methinks that goes a little far, I'm not entirely sure (from a day to day
>DBA view point) how often one would need the information in the dump below
>(not original cause it was filched from Jonathan but it will boost that OCR
>rating!)
>
[...dump flushed...]
Guess I need to learn about dumps.
One theme I observe on these discussions is the "...if a DBA can't do
x then they're not a DBA, are incompetent, wouldn't be hired etc." I
would hope in reality that a person would be judged on what they can
do, and what they do know, rather than failure to answer one or two
pet questions.
In my case, I've been DBA'ing for more than 10 years, with Ingres,
Sybase, and Oracle. Almost all of that time I've been working by
myself, learning from books, courses, user groups, and newsgroups such
as this. No doubt in my mind there are lots of holes in my knowledge,
but I've been able to keep my databases intact and running, plus do
design and dev work and whatever else has been needed, often more. My
employers have all been quite happy. Nevertheless, according to a lot
of the criteria expressed on this list, I'm a bum.
There are a lot of different database environments. Seems to me
evaluating a prospective DBA would consist mostly of finding out about
the candidates experience and attitude toward learning, and how well
it would map to the demands of the position I'm offering. If they had
an OCP, I'd want to know how they perceived it, i.e. aware of its
shortcomings and erroneous info, that is is one of many learning tools
and not a passport to anything, etc.
In short, a DBA shouldn't be judged on multiple-choice, pass/fail
criteria. Good judgement is essay questions and context awareness.
Now I'll go read about block dumps in case I suddenly need to take
one.
fdp
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred Pierce (DNRC)- fpi...@avialantic.com
Mid-Atlantic Aviation on the Web - http://www.avialantic.com
** Mid Atlantic Air Museum WWII Weekend Airshow June 6-8 2003
- www.maam.org/maamwwii.html **
*** World Airshow News - www.worldairshownews.com **
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Noons
news:2mj81vofp9t2vkbt4...@4ax.com and I quote:
>
> Now I'll go read about block dumps in case I suddenly need to take
> one.
ŚD
Howard J. Rogers
I shouldn't have said 'industry' recognized. That's true. I meant
'professionally recognised'. In particular, if you ever try to migrate to
Australia, the government requires the ACS to assess your qualifications
before you're allocated your points (and as we all know, points make visas).
Yes, the ACS will take into account things like OCP and MCSE when making its
assessment. But they require 'relevant experience' as well. And (here's my
real point) membership of the ACS is sufficient in and of itself to get you
the points.
(Or was in 1998, anyway).
Regards
HJR
Howard J. Rogers
"Noons" <nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
> d...@burleson.cc (Don Burleson) wrote in
> news:998d28f7.03010...@posting.google.com and I quote:
>
>
> > Here is the USA, certification bodies require a Graduate College
> > Degree for
> >
> > 1 - Bar certification (law)
> > 2 - Medical certification (board certified MD)
> > 3 – Engineering (Civil and EE)
>
>
> Yeah, but those are very general qualifications.
> I'm talking more vertical.
>
> >
> > Can you imagine the brouhaha if Oracle Corporation required OCPs to
> > have a formal education?
> >
>
> Well, as always: define "OCP"?
>
> For a DBA, I can't see why a formal education in some related
> discipline wouldn't be desirable. I sincerely doubt that someone
> with a degree in ancient egyptology or reaal estate selling
> would ever become a DBA. Other than as an "OCP"...
> But I can see an actuary, or an engineer, becoming one.
>
Er... Masters in History here.
(Well, majoring in 20th Century American Political History, which -as my
Dean used to sneer- is merely current affairs. But then he claimed anything
after 1492 was current affairs).
Regards
HJR
Howard J. Rogers
"Fred Pierce" <news...@avialantic.com> wrote in message
news:2mj81vofp9t2vkbt4...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 22:34:15 -0000, "Niall Litchfield"
> <niall.li...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> >"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:_rAQ9.14176$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >> Personally, if a person doesn't know how to do a block dump and
interpret
> >> the results properly, s/he shouldn't call himself/herself a DBA. And if
> >> there's one thing you won't learn on any OCP-based Oracle training
course,
> >> it's how to do a block dump.
> >
> >Methinks that goes a little far, I'm not entirely sure (from a day to day
> >DBA view point) how often one would need the information in the dump
below
> >(not original cause it was filched from Jonathan but it will boost that
OCR
> >rating!)
> >
> [...dump flushed...]
>
> Guess I need to learn about dumps.
>
> One theme I observe on these discussions is the "...if a DBA can't do
> x then they're not a DBA, are incompetent, wouldn't be hired etc." I
> would hope in reality that a person would be judged on what they can
> do, and what they do know, rather than failure to answer one or two
> pet questions.
>
[snip]
The business about doing block dumps has been somewhat misunderstood. I
doubt that any DBA needs to be able to do a block dump in the normal course
of work. But doing such things indicates curiosity as to the internal
workings of the beast they are supposed to be administering. It has to be
self-taught, since no Oracle course will show you how to do it. It's not
easy, and requires patience and persistence. And interpretation of the
results (ie, diagnosis) is key to making the right sort of decisions in many
genuinely day-to-day decisions, such as performance tuning or recovery
procedures.
I used it therefore as a shorthand for 'showing interest, persistence,
self-motivation, ability to diagnose'. It's certainly not a pet question,
nor the only way it would be possible to demonstrate such qualities. But as
tests go, it's not a bad one.
It's way more reliable a test than flashing a bit of paper with three magic
letters on it, however.
Regards
HJR
grjohnson
> "Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:C%JQ9.14362
> > Well, as a member of the Australian Computer Society, these are exactly
> the
> > sorts of things you get examined in prior to acquiring membership. There
> are
> > several written papers, and if memory serves, not a
> multi-choice/multi-guess
> > paper amongst them.
> >
> > I'm positive the British Computer Society has the same sort of membership
> > requirements.
>
> I believe it does and suspect these might well be the way to go however...
>
> > There *are* industry recognised *professional* qualifications out there.
> But
> > OCP isn't one of them.
>
> I can't recall *ever* seeing a job ad that required the candidate to be a
> member of (or part qualified member of if such a thing exists) the BCS. I'd
> be surprised if the same wasn't true in Oz. The number of jobs that
> apparently *require* OCP/MCSE/CCNE on the other hand is relatively large -
> at least as advertised. In my book that means that the industry doesn't
> recognise general principles and a professional approach but does recognise
> skillsets. It is left to the reader to guess wether i think that this has
> anything to do with the generally abysmal record of the industry in doing
> its work, when compared to lawyers,engineers,accountants, teachers etc.
As Howard pointed out, in Australia we have the ACS (Australian
Computing Society), of which there are stringent guidelines in which
one has to adhere to become a member. I was a member during my
university days but have not ventured this path again. (Though about
it recently, but I'm taking a trip to the UK for a year). Although, I
think the ACS is a great idea, and helps of the "policing" of the
industry. The ACS is attempting to identify IT as a profession
(actually, I think they have), by only allowing people to hold
membership after they have completed the minimum qualifications. I'm
not sure what the guidelines are, but I'm sure it's essential for a
member to hold a Degree qualification.
Personally, I hope the ACS obtains more members and eventually ACS
membership is used as a guide to fill Australian positions. I think
it'll clean up the industry.
Cheers,
Greg Johnson
David Sharples
> (Though about
> it recently, but I'm taking a trip to the UK for a year).
>
> Greg Johnson
> >
To work?? Job market aint too hot over here
Noons
>
>
> Er... Masters in History here.
>
> (Well, majoring in 20th Century American Political History, which -as my
> Dean used to sneer- is merely current affairs. But then he claimed anything
> after 1492 was current affairs).
>
Oh well! You are the exception that confrims the rule!
:D
(There HAD to be one...) LOL!
Joel Garry
> Noons,
>
> Why are you holding Oracle to a higher standard than the other members of
> the computer industry?
I don't know about outside the US, but in the US there are actual
regulations requiring the use of Oracle in government computers. To
work on these, you must be vetted as having experience and/or
education and/or certification. So there alone, Oracle must be held
to a higher standard. Cynicism about _lower_ standard aside, of
course.
>
> It is OUTSIDE of Oracle's ability to make the OCP (or something like it)
> state issued. The only way to do this is for you (and others) to go to
> YOUR/THIER local state government and get them excited enough to create and
> then require certification!!
Very rich people do have influence on policy makers. Of course, Larry
and Scott would rather control the certs, than the govt.
>
> Till a state says IT (programmers, administrators, etc.) needs state
> certification, the best we have is industry certification.
>
> Hey! Why don't you look at running for office and making this a campaign
> issue?! Baring running for office, point out IT problems where state
> certification would solve the problem. Basically, you need to get elected
> officials to see the need. The best we can do is help you encourage the
> various states.
Ever see the movie "Dave?"
.
>
>
>
> "Noons" <nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam> wrote in message
Would that be a SET NOON reference? :-)
> news:Xns92F7A3EB8F...@210.49.20.254...
> > "Bert Bear" <bert...@NOSPAMbertbear.net> wrote in
> > news:z1tQ9.6103$SY4.279...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com and I quote:
> >
> > > Ah, nothing in the computer industry meets your requirement of a state
> > > board, independent of any maker. Why should employers / industry hold
> > > Oracle DBAs to a higher standard than other IT professionals?
> >
> >
> > Last I looked DBAs were taking care of the most valuable
> > piece of information in any company: its databases. If that is not
> > worth a certification based on an independent body, what is?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Obviously, you'd be in favor of requiring programmers to have state
> > > licenses (which might not be a bad idea) and to require malpractice
> > > insurance, etc.
Malpractice insurance is a very dirty word among US doctors these
days.
And look at any driving group about licensing... :-O
(Big hoo-ha about truck drivers exempted from vision requirements for
interstate trucking, these days)
> >
> >
> > Just like any other *professionals*. The point is:
> > Oracle can't call this thing "Certified Professional" in
> > its current format. It's an insult to people who have to be
> > professionally certified, in other industries.
> >
> > The only way to get the proper salary recognition in future,
> > in a tight market like it's gonna be. Think about it.
Well with Boeing laying off 30000 workers in Washington State, and Mr.
Morgan training them all, what's to think about? Lotsa cheap labor...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Oh, and BTW, when I was in my 20s I looked around for state sponsored
> > > computer board tests. People thought I was crazy. I hope you have
> > > better luck.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I'm not looking around for anything, my 20's are long gone
> > and my career is more near retirement than anything else.
> > But that doesn't mean I have to gobble down the latest
> > marketing plot for a quick money grab, without a whisper
> > against it!
The revolution will not be streamed!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers
> > Nuno Souto
> > nso...@optusnet.com.au.nospam
jg
--
@home is bogus.
In 2040, the concept of human "work" will be phased out. Twenty-one
years later, hunter-gatherer societies will be re-created. - Arthur
Clarke
Tim X
> Wanna bet 3 years ago this bloke would have found a job?
> Back then I wouldn't be able to work in "web-design"...
>
>
> At least this guy had taken a TAFE course, which has minor
> recognition. Many others didn't even bother with that...
>
>
> Thank God for the "recession"! We might (finally!) get rid
> of the "colleagues"...
>
Yes, I think I have to agree here. One thing I have noticed since the
tech wreck is that on the whole, the people I now work with tend to be
better qualified with more formal/tertiary qualifications and
better conceptual understanding.
I was finding it very frustrating before when I would be working with
a group of "developers/programmers/analysts" and find I was the only
one who had any formal training. Many of these people were very
intelligent, but their backgrounds were totally unrelated to software
development. They could create applications in VB which looked good on
the surface with windows, menus, flashy graphics, but which failed
completely in a production environment or were totally impossible to
maintain or extend. Often when I tried to explain concepts like data
abstraction, designing efficient algorithms and designing/implementing
with good maintenance practices they would just look at me blankly or
laugh and say something like "Why bother, I'll be out of here in 2
years and it won't be my problem" etc. I often had arguments with some
who believed I was just a snob because I thought formal qualifications
were important - they would say it was irrelevent and their proof was
they had a well paid job without any, so why should they bother. Most
of them are now finding it very difficult to get a job.
Remember back in the early/mid 90's all those "web programmers" - I
use to find it very amusing when someone called themselves a web
programmer because they could write HTML. This made me laugh as it
meant that in the 80's I must have also been a Wordstar professional
programmer and a latex programmer in addition to my C and assembly
programming.
Tim
--
Tim Cross
The e-mail address on this message is FALSE (obviously!). My real e-mail is
to a company in Australia called rapttech and my login is tcross - if you
really need to send mail, you should be able to work it out!
Joel Garry
> Daniel,
>
> You mean something like:
>
>
>
> To be more serious, apprenticeships have their values as if you value the
> Master who "graduates" the person then you have a GREAT certification.
>
> hmmm, maybe what we start to needs is the: comp.database.oracle
> certification
>
> You need to spend two years in apprenticeship to Daniel or other DBA we know
> is good. If they give you their blessing, you get the certification.
Ohmygawd, this brings up visions of every screwed up apprenticeship
system there ever was.
>
> Maybe Oracle needs to start an apprenticeship. Work for Oracle for free (or
> minimum wage or pay Oracle like people pay colleges) for two years. Hey, it
> might make more money for Oracle than the OCP. Maybe I should shutup before
> it happens. ;-)
My wife had to put in 3000 hours at minimum wage or worse to get her
state certification, after getting a doctorate. Now her field has
gone to hell in a handbasket. She could make half of what I do were
she to take a really crappy job. She has a halfway decent job but
only makes a third of what I do. She had a job she really loved,
until they hired an inexperienced manager over her.
The downside of apprenticeships is they do not evolve well. They are
extremely vulnerable to societal and economic changes (and
technological for us). When our field gets to the point of it being
reasonable to even have such apprenticeships, it will be old and
lizardlike. Unless there is some craftsmanship revolution, but that
seems highly unlikely.
>
> Bert.
>
>
>
> "DA Morgan" <damo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
> news:3E136318...@exesolutions.com...
> > "Howard J. Rogers" wrote:
> >
> > > But, mentioning no-one specifically in particular, when a self-professed
> > > DBA, claiming two versions' certification, can't even understand the
> > > difference between redo log multiplexing and redo log mirroring and
> > > demonstrates as much in postings to this newsgroup; or can't even read
> the
> > > Oracle documentation properly where the difference (and the preference)
> is
> > > pointed out in words of not very many more than one syllable; well, what
> > > does that tell you about the value of the OCP?
> > >
> > > So much for a "rounded" education.
> > >
> > > Personally, if a person doesn't know how to do a block dump and
> interpret
> > > the results properly, s/he shouldn't call himself/herself a DBA. And if
> > > there's one thing you won't learn on any OCP-based Oracle training
> course,
> > > it's how to do a block dump.
Been such a long time since I've had to do anything like that, I'd
have to learn it all over again. I think it is awfully obscure to
require of a DBA. But I would say the same thing about assembler
language, too.
That may be sad, or it may mean _they use different semantics to
describe the same thing_!
> >
> > Did they get the job transfer within the city they wanted? No. Well until
> 3
> > months later when they tried again and were interviewed by other city
> employees.
> >
> > Daniel Morgan
> >
jg
--
@home is bogus. "A disease or virus will kill significant portions of
the global population. Don't think that things will always get better.
They can just get worse, and then you'll die." – Gerald
Celente, director, Trends Research Institute
Tim X
> "Niall Litchfield" <niall.li...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in
> news:3e136b64$0$226$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com and I quote:
>
> > You'd also get away
> > from the entirely daft notion that you were an Oracle 8i or MSSQL 7 DBA and
> > towards the fact that you were a DBA (or developer or what have you). They
> > don't certify Accountants in the use of Sage or Pocket calculators (and
> > certainly not in Excel). they train and test them in Accounting/Auditing
> > etc.
>
> Amen!
>
Yes - agree 100%. One of the very disturbing trends I've observed in
universities offering computer science degrees has been the move away
from generic and theoretical course content to specific vendor
products and vendor recognized qualifications. There has been a push
at the university I graduated from to drop some of the courses from
the compulsory stream which I feel are important (networking, computer
architecture, data structures etc) and to introduce courses like Java
and Web Programming, .NET and C# etc. and to offer MS recognized
qualifications because its what "industry wants".
My feeling is that if you have a good conceptual and theoretical
understanding of your industry you will be able to adapt to new
developments much easier than if you have only got a (possibly strong
and in-depth) knowledge of a specific technology or vendor product.
I don't think OCP is totally worthless. I certainly would not employ
someone simply because they were an OCP, nor would I regect someone
because they had not obtained OCP status. However, I do think it can
be useful because it provides a structured framework for learning
about Oracle, which can be very beneficial with something as large as
Oracle, it does indicate some familiarity (even superficial) with the
product, can be useful in convincing employers to fund/support
training and can be an indication the person is someone who is at
least inetersted in continuing to develop their skills. However, the
decision to make the exams unproctored is a bad decision in my view
and will diminish even further the obviously debatable merit of being
an OCP.
grjohnson
Yeah, I know, I've been following it closely. (It's bad here too..).
But, I'm going to give it a shot, it's always a big risk to give up
full-time work to go to...well, possible nothing. But, the sector
can't stay down forever. I gave it some thought, and if the market was
hot, I probably wouldn't even leave Australia. I'm looking forward to
the experience of living in another country anyway.. should be
exciting.
Cheers,
Greg.
grjohnson
"But doing such things indicates curiosity as to the internal
workings of the beast they are supposed to be administering."
I agree entirely, curiosity provokes learning, which is helpful to
Administrators, Developers and Management. I think OCP shouldn't be
used as a guideline for one's expertise, but more of a sign of
somebody's curiousity.
I enjoyed it cause it gave me a structured approach to learn about
some of Oracle components which I may never have used in my Day-by-Day
DBA role. I have my Strengths and Weaknesses in my Oracle knowledge,
but that comes with experince and my ability to research and learn.
Everyday I try and learn something new about Oracle, and if I get a
Developer ask me a question which I don't know. I inform them I don't
know, thank them, research the issue and get back to them with an
answer. Yeah, I'm an OCP, big deal right, I'm glad I did it though....
the certificate, well, it's stashed in the back of my cupboard never
to be seen again, but knowing I completed it gives me some intrinsic
value to know that I'm interested in Oracle and I've accomplished a
goal and can accomplish more with curiosity.
Cheers,
Greg J.
Norman Dunbar
don't come over here !!!
It's winter - and the worst of the winter is still to come.
It's cold.
It's bloody snowing again. I had to dig my car out from under 3" of
white crap this morning - all of which fell from around 04:00.
Almost everywhere is under water - or about to be. My dad has just lost
everything he owns due to flooding - he lives in a bungalow and had
about 4 feet of crappy, brown, muddy, sewage ridden river water inside
his house. He only has the clothes he stands up in :o(
The Govenrment sucks, and the PM has far too many teeth to be human. :o)
The job situation is crap. (My wife is looking for IT jobs and she can't
get any).
The beer is warm and comes in pints, not stubbies :o)
No VB.
Lots of Castlemaine XXXX.
etc etc etc.
Stay in Oz, it is better - trust me, I've been there. (But they won't
let me in to stay ....)
Regards & Happy new year,
Norman.
Pete Sharman
Johns...@hotmail.com says...
At least moving from Oz to England you won't have the same issue I had when we
moved from Oz to the US. We made the mistake of thinking they spoke English
here - boy, were we wrong! :)
HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.
Pete
SELECT standard_disclaimer, witty_remark FROM company_requirements;
Christopher Boyle
9.2) but I would be interestested in in learning how to cause and interpret
a block dump. ? I did a google search of the newsgroups and found a few
examples of how to do it but nothing in enough detail to explain how to read
it or even why I would need to dump a block much less how to determine the
block to dump. Can anyone recommend a good source for learning this?
(possible joke topics to expound upon include: Asking the world how to take
a dump, OCP = Oracle Constipated Professional/Oracle Clueless Professional
and decodeing a dump by hand.)
Have a nice day
Chris
Norman Dunbar
nip over to Jonathan's web site and the Co-operative FAQ
(http://www.jlcomp.demon.co.uk/faq/blockdump.html) and you should find a
(hopefully) helpful answer to the question on how to take a dump, how to
determine which block to dump etc etc. The author of the article is
quite well respected (in his own mind!)
As for how to read said block dump, I'm afraid I can't really help -
I've got a pair of OCPs so I'm unqualified to tell you :o) but there are
a couple of links available on the above FAQ answer.
Cheers,
Norman.
-------------------------------------
Norman Dunbar
Database/Unix administrator
Lynx Financial Systems Ltd.
mailto:Norman...@LFS.co.uk
Tel: 0113 289 6265
Fax: 0113 289 3146
URL: http://www.Lynx-FS.com
-------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Boyle [mailto:cbo...@hargray.dot.com]
Posted At: Friday, January 03, 2003 2:06 PM
Posted To: server
Conversation: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?
Subject: Re: Outrage that OCP exams are now unproctored - Comments?
Noons
news:91884734.03010...@posting.google.com and I quote:
> regulations requiring the use of Oracle in government computers. To
> work on these, you must be vetted as having experience and/or
> education and/or certification. So there alone, Oracle must be held
> to a higher standard. Cynicism about _lower_ standard aside, of
> course.
What form of certification/experience? Is there a defined
standard/target? I'm interested. Where I am right now I have a small
chance of slightly influencing this type of stuff for the better in
Australian government, so any info is most welcome.
>
> Would that be a SET NOON reference? :-)
>
:D
Nope. Just what my friends call me.
Nuno is too hard to pronounce correctly,
so they give up and use "noons".
>
> Malpractice insurance is a very dirty word among US doctors these
> days.
That is a disadvantage of the proper recognition...
>
> Well with Boeing laying off 30000 workers in Washington State, and Mr.
> Morgan training them all, what's to think about? Lotsa cheap labor...
Hmm, was that IT workers?
I know what you mean, of course. But give it another
gulf war^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfour or five years and IT
will have recovered. By then there will be a few well
trained people around and none coming out of the pipeline
of training and a lot of the prior "colleagues" moved on.
Then it's gonna be fun to watch the "paradigm shift"
yet again. Sometimes I think that what this industry needs
is a purge of the layers of middle management rather than
the "colleagues". After all, they are the ones that caused
the situation we're in in the first place. Only then can
we be reasonably safe this non-sense won't be repeated.
>
> The revolution will not be streamed!
>
Right! Against the wall, you lot!!!
:D
Karsten Farrell
> In article <32b8a689.03010...@posting.google.com>,
> Johns...@hotmail.com says...
>
>>"David Sharples" <david.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>>news:<8M3R9.776$Gn6....@newsfep4-gui.server.ntli.net>...
>>
>>>> (Though about
>>>>it recently, but I'm taking a trip to the UK for a year).
>>>>
>>>>Greg Johnson
>>>>
>>>To work?? Job market aint too hot over here
>>
>>Yeah, I know, I've been following it closely. (It's bad here too..).
>>But, I'm going to give it a shot, it's always a big risk to give up
>>full-time work to go to...well, possible nothing. But, the sector
>>can't stay down forever. I gave it some thought, and if the market was
>>hot, I probably wouldn't even leave Australia. I'm looking forward to
>>the experience of living in another country anyway.. should be
>>exciting.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Greg.
>
>
> At least moving from Oz to England you won't have the same issue I had when we
> moved from Oz to the US. We made the mistake of thinking they spoke English
> here - boy, were we wrong! :)
>
LOL. As an American, I know what you mean. My wife came from Romania a
few years ago. Learned English over there ... but it was the British
version ... I had trouble understanding her at first ... but now she can
pronounce aunt correctly and knows where the real hood of the car is. ;)
Christopher Boyle
I am even worse off. I think with the retirement of the Java certification
and the fact that the Application Server administration is still in beta I
hold all the active certifications Oracle offers. (that, combined with
$8.97 USD, will get me a six pack of Newcastle Brown) I appreciate the help
and best wishes for the new year to all!
"Norman Dunbar" <Norman...@lfs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:E2F6A70FE45242488C86...@lnewton.leeds.lfs.co.uk...
Paul Brewer
news:ZMiR9.1292$gw4.10...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Cars wear hoods now, do they?
Here, some have a "sunroof", which in the UK leak water 364 days per year,
but which the owners can open (in order to to expose themselves to the
fumes) on the one day when it doesn't rain.
The only kind of clothes worn by cars in Britain (note: I don't say 'British
cars'; it's an oxymoron) are Victorian in nature; bonnets and boots.
By the way, in the UK only bus companies fuel their vehicles with gas; (and
it stinks). The civilised buy petrol. But it costs about $5 per gallon.....
And even elephants sport their trunks at the front.
Bitter? Moi?
No, I've just a sneaking sympathy with Norman's point of view....
;-)
Regards,
Paul
David Sharples
a few months back
Will all the people out of work thought it woulda been easy, nope, couldn't
find a single good candidate.
So if you are good, and you seem to be - hope for you yet :-)
"Norman Dunbar" <Norman...@lfs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:E2F6A70FE45242488C86...@lnewton.leeds.lfs.co.uk...