New Solaris announcement

[Mladen Gogala]

Oracle usually makes announcements on the OOW, this one is no exception:

http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/1859224

However, this announcement did surprise me. It says the following:

"Improve Oracle Real Application Clusters lock latency by 17% by
offloading lock management into the Oracle Solaris kernel."

So, RAC lock management is now moved to OS? How smart is to use other
platforms for RAC? In particular, what about Linux OS? If Solaris is
getting preferential treatment, as is visible from the following
statement, how smart it is to use Oracle on Linux? How committed is
Oracle Corp. to the Linux OS?

“Oracle Solaris 11 is the best UNIX operating system to run Oracle
applications, deploy mission critical cloud infrastructure and protect
customer investments,” said John Fowler, executive vice president,
Systems, Oracle.

OK. What about Oracle Linux? Is it at least a good choice? Solaris 11 is
obviously the best choice, but will Linux still remain at least a good
choice?


--
Mladen Gogala
The Oracle Whisperer
http://mgogala.byethost5.com

[joel garry]

On Oct 4, 9:15 pm, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oracle usually makes announcements on the OOW, this one is no exception:
>
> http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/1859224
>
> However, this announcement did surprise me. It says the following:
>
>  "Improve Oracle Real Application Clusters lock latency by 17% by
> offloading lock management into the Oracle Solaris kernel."
>
> So, RAC lock management is now moved to OS? How smart is to use other
> platforms for RAC? In particular, what about Linux OS? If Solaris is
> getting preferential treatment, as is visible from the following
> statement, how smart it is to use Oracle on Linux? How committed is
> Oracle Corp. to the Linux OS?

Good questions. Lock management came from VMS, and then the big thing
was to take it out of the kernel,. I'd wildly speculate the kernel
people are smart enough to layer the code so it could be migrated as a
separate product on other platforms, or even a module within an Oracle
linux. OCFS2 was taken off alpha status in 2.6.19, and it was based
on the old VMS DLM. Then again, I'm probably wildly optimistic, and
it's just a hack job by some kids. Then again, it might just be
marketspeak. 17% of what?

>
> “Oracle Solaris 11 is the best UNIX operating system to run Oracle
> applications, deploy mission critical cloud infrastructure and protect
> customer investments,” said John Fowler, executive vice president,
> Systems, Oracle.
>
> OK. What about Oracle Linux? Is it at least a good choice? Solaris 11 is
> obviously the best choice, but will Linux still remain at least a good
> choice?

Prolly the difference is scale. Sell app for cloud to SMB market,
then bring linux in house once established, use cloud for additional
projects, then bring in house again with appliance. Listening to
Larry drone on about fusion put me to sleep, but mo money mo money mo
money for mo licenses, mo licenses, mo licenses. Since they sell
apps, the strategy to be able to package soup-to-nuts the same thing
in such wildly different configurations based on whatever the customer
heard was best, is brilliant.

>
> --
> Mladen Gogala
> The Oracle Whispererhttp://mgogala.byethost5.com

Eh? Speak up! lol

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
"A Complete Guide To Going Paperless" title on spam, gave me a
chuckle.

[Mladen Gogala]

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:48:51 -0700, joel garry wrote:

> Good questions. Lock management came from VMS, and then the big thing
> was to take it out of the kernel,.

From VMS to Solaris and back. Hopefully, Oracle will not end up as DEC? I
am not sure that it would be good for Oracle if HP ended up owning them.

[joel garry]

On Oct 5, 12:54 pm, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:48:51 -0700, joel garry wrote:
> > Good questions.  Lock management came from VMS, and then the big thing
> > was to take it out of the kernel,.
>
> From VMS to Solaris and back. Hopefully, Oracle will not end up as DEC? I
> am not sure that it would be good for Oracle if HP ended up owning them.

lol! http://www.thestreet.com/story/11728905/1/hps-meg-whitman-setting-new-lows-in-ceo-incompetence.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/04/meg-whitmans-hockey-stick-forecast-for-hp-wont-happen/

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

"She has red flags all over her. Monkey business with Goldman Sachs,
and a bozo-deal that lost eBay almost $1.4 billion. Whitman buys Skype
for 4.1B then sells it to Marc Andreesen-led fund for $2.7B, then Marc
sells it to Microsoft for over $8.5B. I'd say they should hire Marc to
teach them some deal-making skills. And they got her to the business
hall of fame? LOL! Is the there a hall for bozos? Not to mention that
she planned to kill Californians by thinking that clean air is less
important than jobs. Lousy business+politics person, without a clue
about hi-tech or any vision, as head of the oldest hi-tech company.
HP , you're in deep doodoo. A friggin' 3+ year profitability roadmap
for the world's largest computer company? WTF? They need to invent
(ironic) new PRODUCTS & SERVICES to sell NOW. Hire a progressive
engineer CEO and get their creativity asses back to a Bill Hewlett
garage mentality before its too late. And btw, NOBODY with half a
functional brain (including computer stores) buys/sells HP inks at $40
a pop. They sell knockoffs and refills at $7 to boost their retail
margins. Original HP inks sit on shelfs for months. FACT! Get a clue
Meg! Inkjets are D.E.A.D. people buy lasers for $80 these days. You
need a team of uber-geeks to re-factor your entire product line. Not
some stupid PoS with a timebomb chip that kills a $50 printer after
2000 spool commands. Mehhh! Think we don't know your bozo tactics?
Corporate mentality. Go figure." - Damien Spechiotis

[Mladen Gogala]

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:58:06 -0700, joel garry wrote:

> "She has red flags all over her. Monkey business with Goldman Sachs, and
> a bozo-deal that lost eBay almost $1.4 billion. Whitman buys Skype for
> 4.1B then sells it to Marc Andreesen-led fund for $2.7B, then Marc sells
> it to Microsoft for over $8.5B. I'd say they should hire Marc to teach
> them some deal-making skills. And they got her to the business hall of
> fame? LOL! Is the there a hall for bozos?

If my memory serves me right, I said something similar when there was the
ruckus with Oracle declining to support the Itanic chip. Her reaction was
completely inadequate. I wouldn't be surprised if in a few years Oracle
ended up owning HP as well. If Larry continues living for 100 more years,
he'll end up owning IBM, Microsoft and Google, too.

[joel garry]

/. has noticed the T5 delay, some interesting comments:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/10/04/216242/oracles-sparc-t5-chip-evidently-pushed-back-to-2013

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

http://www.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/opinion/2215057/a-year-on-from-steve-jobs-death-apple-and-oracle-face-similar-challenges

[Noons]

Mladen Gogala wrote,on my timestamp of 6/10/2012 5:54 AM:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:48:51 -0700, joel garry wrote:
>
>> Good questions. Lock management came from VMS, and then the big thing
>> was to take it out of the kernel,.
>
> From VMS to Solaris and back. Hopefully, Oracle will not end up as DEC? I
> am not sure that it would be good for Oracle if HP ended up owning them.
>
>
>

I'm surprised there was apparentlly only one new announcement during oow that
"there would be no more need for dbas". ADDM every 3 minutes or something, in
12c. As if.
Ah well, looks like the separation of HP from Oracle has at least had one good
effect: the imbeciles inside HP who wanted to kill all dbas have now stopped
having any relevance with Oracle. And if "Whitman's way" continues, they will
lose ALL relevance. A good thing, IMHO.

[John Hurley]

Mladen:

# OK. What about Oracle Linux? Is it at least a good choice? Solaris

11 is obviously the best choice, but will Linux still remain at least
a good choice?

Mladen this looks like semi trolling ...

If you went to the 2012 Open World linux sessions ... Oracle is
committed to linux. Remember the penguins on stage with Larry? Do I
have to post some pics from that event at Moscone West? Why he
practically picked up a penguin and ... well use your imagination
here ...

Like for example ... CON8729 aka "Why Switch to Oracle Linux" ... hey
this is the best platform ... ever ...

If you go to the "other" Open World Solaris sessions ... solaris is
the best. Hardware and software together ... you really don't want to
do any complicated stuff yourself ... pay oracle to do it all for
you ... our cloud or your cloud ...

Not that Oracle is mixing messages at all here ... right?

Bottom line the message is ... hpux is on the way to the bottom ...
aix you do not even want to consider ...

Solaris is ( well since we purchased Sun ) back and linux is ...
pretty dang good ... but ... well ... *** cough cough *** ...

[Mladen Gogala]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:08:11 -0700, John Hurley wrote:

> # OK. What about Oracle Linux? Is it at least a good choice? Solaris 11
> is obviously the best choice, but will Linux still remain at least a
> good choice?
>
> Mladen this looks like semi trolling ...

Oh, you reckon? It's a post about an Oracle announcement on the Oracle
group. How would you explain your semi-accusation?

>
> If you went to the 2012 Open World linux sessions ...

I didn't go to the OOW. I am exposed to the marketing push daily, I don't
think that I should pay for a double dose. Oracle is just a company, not
a religion. Pilgrimage is not really necessary and will not guarantee
salvation for your immortal database.

> Oracle is
> committed to linux. Remember the penguins on stage with Larry?

I don't remember penguins, I didn't attend OOW. I have never attended OOW
and I probably never will. I don't see any gains in it for me. I used to
regularly attend EOUG and NYOUG general meetings, because of the useful
technical information one could pick up there. However, these meetings
have become pure and unadulterated marketing, with very few technical
information. Oracle became much more reserved and is filtering technical
information to significantly larger degree than before. After attending 3
NYOUG meetings without learning anything useful, I stopped attending.

> Do I
> have to post some pics from that event at Moscone West? Why he
> practically picked up a penguin and ... well use your imagination here

Let me guess: committed an act of despicable animal abuse, albeit on the
symbolic level? I guess, that symbolizes commitment.

[John Hurley]

Mladen:

# It's a post about an Oracle announcement on the Oracle group.

There is probably no shortage of Oracle employees in the NYC area
willing to talk about linux and Oracle. Not hard to find Oracle
information on which versions they will be supporting and for how long
on each version etc.

Also not hard to find the linux sessions powerpoints from OOW 2012 if
one is willing to search the content catalog ...

Here is the powerpoint from the one I already noted earlier:

http://myexpospace.com/oracle2012/SessionFiles/CON8729_PDF_8729_0001.pdf

There is also this session ( don't see powerpoint for it yet in the
collateral rack ) ...

GEN8726 - General Session: Oracle Linux Strategy and Roadmap
Oracle Linux, the best Linux for the enterprise, provides a fast,
modern, reliable Linux platform trusted by thousands of customers
worldwide. Used internally by Oracle’s development and Global IT
teams, heavily tested for data center and cloud deployments, and
backed by an enterprise-class support program, Oracle Linux is
designed for customers running mission-critical applications on
Linux.In this general session, Oracle executives discuss Linux
strategy, the roadmap, contributions to the Linux mainline kernel, and
what’s in store for upcoming releases of Oracle Linux and Oracle’s
Unbreakable Enterprise Kernel.

[joel garry]

On Oct 6, 7:44 pm, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:08:11 -0700, John Hurley wrote:
> > # OK. What about Oracle Linux? Is it at least a good choice? Solaris 11
> > is obviously the best choice, but will Linux still remain at least a
> > good choice?
>
> > Mladen this looks like semi trolling ...
>
> Oh, you reckon? It's a post about an Oracle announcement on the Oracle
> group. How would you explain your semi-accusation?
>
>
>
> > If you went to the 2012 Open World linux sessions ...
>
> I didn't go to the OOW. I am exposed to the marketing push daily, I don't
> think that I should pay for a double dose. Oracle is just a company, not
> a religion. Pilgrimage is not really necessary and will not guarantee
> salvation for your immortal database.
>
> > Oracle is
> > committed to linux.  Remember the penguins on stage with Larry?
>
> I don't remember penguins, I didn't attend OOW. I have never attended OOW
> and I probably never will. I don't see any gains in it for me. I used to

You haven't attended it so how can you really know? I see both sides,
since I've been there and no longer attend it because there are few
gains for me. However, that's because most of my work is not Oracle
dba work. If it were, I'm pretty certain there is enough of the dba
subculture there - yes, I'm referring to the Oakies - to make it
worthwhile. But like any educational experience, so much of what you
get out of it depends on what you put in to it. I've been trying to
follow these optimizer improvements online, I know that will
eventually hit me, that's one thing where I wish I had gone. I find
the combination of education along with figuring things out myself
works a lot better than just doing it myself. YMMV (and I for one
appreciate your exploration postings here).

> regularly attend EOUG and NYOUG general meetings, because of the useful
> technical information one could pick up there. However, these meetings
> have become pure and unadulterated marketing, with very few technical
> information. Oracle became much more reserved and is filtering technical
> information to significantly larger degree than before. After attending 3
> NYOUG meetings without learning anything useful, I stopped attending.

It's funny, when I did used to go, I would hear this from some of my
fellow dba's, and kind of wonder why they don't just face the firehose
they like, rather than all the sewage lines. I confess, sometimes I
do revel in the marketing, if for no other reason than to laugh at
it. And sometimes the music is good. Sometimes the change of pace
away from work is good too. I'd recommended it to anyone who can get
someone else to pay for it.

Any smaller group needs an active core group to keep control away from
marketing types.

>
> > Do I
> > have to post some pics from that event at Moscone West?  Why he

Yes, you do. :)

> > practically picked up a penguin and ... well use your imagination here
>
> Let me guess: committed an act of despicable animal abuse, albeit on the
> symbolic level? I guess, that symbolizes commitment.

I know there must be some way to fit the idea of you don't need that
many wives, lots of fish in the sea, penguins eat lots of fish, but
it's Monday morning.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

No more candles for his birthday cake.
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/lat-et-st-john-rovick-tvs-sheriff-john-departed-20121007,0,3072277.story

[John Hurley]

Joel:

# Any smaller group needs an active core group to keep control away
from marketing types.

As big and active as my local group is ( NEOOUG ... Northeast Ohio
Oracle Users Group ) ... we have at times run short of speakers and
topics. Or sometimes people cancel on short notice.

That can usually be solved by getting one of the local Oracle guys to
put something into the mix ... usually something they have canned and
it is ( of course ) marketing heavy.

A couple of meetings in a row like that with a shortage of good
volunteers and heck yeah the marketing presentations can get out of
control.

You get out of your involvement with users groups more than you put
into it ( generally ) but it takes a combination of committed people.


# Yes, you do. :)

Well crud ... I just finished a quick look around and cannot easily
locate ... will try again later for pics of Larry and the Penguins
from my own camera.

http://news.cnet.com/2300-7344_3-6129561-3.html#2300-7344_3-6129561-2.html?&_suid=134972135701607692794726518365
... if you are desperate ...

[TheBoss]

John Hurley <johnth...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:b14ddeb8-b794-4892...@u19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:

That's 6 years old!
If you're that desperate, you might as well check out these 2 videos:

< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zViq3jKohgg >
< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6WCRA4kSKY >

Preferably play them together at the same time (and - as the first is
1:02 and the second only 0:23 - repeat the second twice).

For a more current "Penguin vs. Larry" story (July 2012):
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/20/oracle_centos_stealth_attack/

And some user comments on that:
http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2012/07/20/oracle_centos_stealth
_attack/


--
Jeroen

[John Hurley]

Mr. Boss:

# That's 6 years old! ... If you're that desperate, you might as well

check out these 2 videos:

I was seated at that event up close to where the penguins came on
stage.

I do have a couple of good pics / hi res ... but ( like you said ) its
been a while ... cannot easily locate them ... too many gigabytes of
digital pics I guess and not very well organized unfortunately.

It's just the way I roll apparently ... big race saturday morning
which is much more important anyhow!

[Mladen Gogala]

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 21:32:40 +1000, Noons wrote:

> Ah well, looks like the separation of HP from Oracle has at least had
one good
> effect: the imbeciles inside HP who wanted to kill all dbas have now
stopped
> having any relevance with Oracle. And if "Whitman's way" continues,
they will
> lose ALL relevance. A good thing, IMHO.

Instead of "there is no need for DBA's", it seems that there is no need
for HP. Dell and IBM can do everything what HP can, and better. Yes, and
that third one, the one that does UltraSPARC, I forgot the name. Maybe HP
should start thinking of the replacement for the Itanic? Power7+ looks
like a good candidate.



--
Mladen Gogala
http://mgogala.freehostia.com

[Mladen Gogala]

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:09:16 -0700, joel garry wrote:


> /. has noticed the T5 delay, some interesting comments:
> http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/10/04/216242/oracles-sparc-t5-chip-
evidently-pushed-back-to-2013

I am disappointed, no on-chip SQL query optimizer? And how much would that
chip wonder cost? There are other chips with spectacular performance, like
Power7+, using the same 35nm technology envisioned for T5. Pushing T5 to
2014 will give IBM ample time to prepare a new chip that will probably
outrun T5 from the start. Power7 was released in 2010 and will be 4 years
old in 2014.

[joel garry]

On Oct 11, 3:07 pm, Mladen Gogala <gogala.mla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:09:16 -0700, joel garry wrote:
> > /. has noticed the T5 delay, some interesting comments:

> >http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/10/04/216242/oracles-sparc-t5-c...

>
> evidently-pushed-back-to-2013
>
> I am disappointed, no on-chip SQL query optimizer? And how much would that
> chip wonder cost? There are other chips with spectacular performance, like
> Power7+, using the same 35nm technology envisioned for T5. Pushing T5 to
> 2014 will give IBM ample time to prepare a new chip that will probably
> outrun T5 from the start. Power7 was released in 2010 and will be 4 years
> old in 2014.
>

Maybe Dell will put Toad-On-A-Chip. :-\

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

That's not funny, that's sick. http://blackgemrecords.com/gallery/d/39893-5/National+Lampoon+-+1.jpg

[Mladen Gogala]

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:29:21 -0700, joel garry wrote:


> Maybe Dell will put Toad-On-A-Chip. :-\
>

> jg http://blackgemrecords.com/gallery/d/39893-5/National+Lampoon+-+1.jpg

I wouldn't worry about that, this is a toad world:

http://www.quest.com/toad/

Just ask Noons about toads in Australia. Australians are doing their best
to kill them, without much success.

[Noons]

Mladen Gogala wrote,on my timestamp of 12/10/2012 8:56 AM:

> that third one, the one that does UltraSPARC, I forgot the name. Maybe HP
> should start thinking of the replacement for the Itanic? Power7+ looks
> like a good candidate.

Dunno about Power7 (yet). But Aix7.1 (the release that groks P7) on our P6 and
Oracle 11.2.0.3 resulted in an across the board reduction in CPU usage in ALL
our vio dbs in excess of 20%. And with the aid of the new RMAN compression
algorithms I am now backing up and restoring dbs at bang-on 800MB/s on a dual
4Gbps FC card system - which is just about the limit with that h/w.
In an experimental P6 vio with 4 cards, I can get it easily up to well over
1.2GB/s with nary any I/O wait - which quite frankly, is amazing!
HP could do a LOT worse than adopt that sort of hardware. But they'll need to
setup a backplane with the bandwidth of the IBM Power series if they want to be
competitive: it's not just the CPU or the memory...

[Noons]

Mladen Gogala wrote,on my timestamp of 12/10/2012 1:31 PM:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:29:21 -0700, joel garry wrote:
>
>
>> Maybe Dell will put Toad-On-A-Chip. :-\
>>
>> jg http://blackgemrecords.com/gallery/d/39893-5/National+Lampoon+-+1.jpg
>
> I wouldn't worry about that, this is a toad world:
>
> http://www.quest.com/toad/
>
> Just ask Noons about toads in Australia. Australians are doing their best
> to kill them, without much success.

Yeah, the cane variety of toad is a bit lethal on the local wildlife...
But I'd settle for the bits-and-bytes variety to not lock everything it touches!
Annoying in the extreme when developers tell me "the table is locked!", I go
check and there is a cursor open on it by a Toad session locking out another
Toad session trying to open a cursor as well! That's when I go rabid with the
kill session thingie...

[joel garry]

On Oct 12, 4:49 am, Noons <wizofo...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> Mladen Gogala wrote,on my timestamp of 12/10/2012 1:31 PM:
>
> > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:29:21 -0700, joel garry wrote:
>
> >> Maybe Dell will put Toad-On-A-Chip.  :-\
>

> >> jghttp://blackgemrecords.com/gallery/d/39893-5/National+Lampoon+-+1.jpg

>
> > I wouldn't worry about that, this is a toad world:
>
> >http://www.quest.com/toad/
>
> > Just ask Noons about toads in Australia. Australians are doing their best
> > to kill them, without much success.
>
> Yeah, the cane variety of toad is a bit lethal on the local wildlife...
> But I'd settle for the bits-and-bytes variety to not lock everything it touches!
>   Annoying in the extreme when developers tell me "the table is locked!", I go
> check and there is a cursor open on it by a Toad session locking out another
> Toad session trying to open a cursor as well! That's when I go rabid with the
> kill session thingie...

What, no kill -9? ;p

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

Oracle, leading the industry with "proven" technology:
http://media.utsandiego.com/img/photos/2012/10/12/UTI1667027_t620.jpg?3ba288e077780dca5879b70fc3e0b2d025cf5799

[John Hurley]

Joel:

# What, no kill -9?

You probably know this already but with recent releases of Oracle the
"kill session" or "disconnect session" usually work well and quickly.

Only in rare cases of processes hung and waiting deep in oracle
( usually/always calling into os services ? ) is the kill -9 required.

Unfortunately when the kill -9 is required the system is usually in
such big trouble that unless you have some automated scripts doing the
scalping ( and all the inherent dangers of using such a draconian
solution ) ... it may be bye bye instance.

[Mladen Gogala]

On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 14:49:44 -0700, John Hurley wrote:

> Unfortunately when the kill -9 is required the system is usually in such
> big trouble that unless you have some automated scripts doing the
> scalping ( and all the inherent dangers of using such a draconian
> solution ) ... it may be bye bye instance.

Kill dash nine is always good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq4

[Noons]

John Hurley wrote,on my timestamp of 14/10/2012 8:49 AM:

> # What, no kill -9?
>
> You probably know this already but with recent releases of Oracle the
> "kill session" or "disconnect session" usually work well and quickly.
>
> Only in rare cases of processes hung and waiting deep in oracle
> ( usually/always calling into os services ? ) is the kill -9 required.

Theoone I've found invariably makes me reach for the kill -9 gun is sessions
using db-links to weird and wonderful places such as Postges, DB2/AS400 and
such. Invairably if the other end goes mute, the Oracle side won't budge until
I shoot the background process and the db has a chance to recover the session.

> Unfortunately when the kill -9 is required the system is usually in
> such big trouble that unless you have some automated scripts doing the
> scalping ( and all the inherent dangers of using such a draconian
> solution ) ... it may be bye bye instance.

I must admit since 10.2.0.3 I have yet to experience a hung instance anywhere.
At least from unknown reasons.
Of course: when a "SAN expert" decides to remove all my LUNs from the SAN cache
"because the db is killing all other I/O" and other such pearls of idiocy,
things can go bump. But I don't call that db hangs. Although the word "hang"
then gets mentioned in relation to said "experts"...

[Mladen Gogala]

On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:28:09 +1100, Noons wrote:

> Of course: when a "SAN expert" decides to remove all my LUNs from the
> SAN cache "because the db is killing all other I/O" and other such
> pearls of idiocy,

For this type of situation, one uses kill -9, aided by Smith & Wesson.
Fortunately, computer professionals normally do not use bulletproof vests,
although I think that they sometimes should.

[John Hurley]

Mladen:

# Kill dash nine is always good: ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq4

... Dang laughing way too loud for a sunday morning!

Shoot now I think I woke up the grouchy teenager ... time to hide in
userland!