irrevelant with this group but i really need help (About bringing a suit against Oracle University Turkey)
Bora Yuret
I was working as a trainer(contractor) for Oracle University Turkey
and for their education partners. One of their partners tried to force
me about a training that OUT(Oracle University Turkey) will not know
anything about the education(with photocopy books).
I did not accept it and informed OUT about this situation. But they
did nothing about their partner and reduced the number of my Oracle
educations. So i gave up working with Oracle and finished our
partnership.
I founded my own education company, with a small class. I agreed with
Sideris courseware to use their Oracle coursewares for my educations.
I asked OUT for an Oracle database education license to use in my
class. But they told me that I could only buy a license per user, ie.
for every student in my class. And i should renew my license for every
education, for every student. This was an unacceptable and unpayable
license of course. So i decided to use Oracle Database Express Edition
for my educations.
But last week, OUT sent me a warning that i can not use Oracle XE for
my educations. They threatened me that if wouldn't stop my educations,
they will bring a suit against my company.
Don't i have any chance to organize Oracle database educations
independent from Oracle? I am thinking about bringing a suit against
OUT that they prevent us from the competition.
May you please help me with your experience? Do every education
company have to get permission from Oracle for Oracle educations,
either if the company do not use Oracle coursewares. Isn't there any
chance for competition?
Thanks for your answers and have a nice year.
Bora YURET
HedefBilgi Bilisim Akademisi
Ankara, TURKEY
hpuxrac
I would take a long look at the user agreement that comes with Oracle
XE.
My guess is that oracle has had their attorneys review it and made
sure that it is not useable as a basis for conducting oracle training.
Perhaps if your training showed only how to download it and how to use
it after it is installed ...
DA Morgan
> I would take a long look at the user agreement that comes with Oracle
> XE.
>
> My guess is that oracle has had their attorneys review it and made
> sure that it is not useable as a basis for conducting oracle training.
Mark Townsend has publicly posted statements with respect to the intent
of the license for XE and has personally encouraged many to use XE for
teaching purposes.
As Mark represents Oracle in his capacity, and as his comments are
a matter of public record, it is a safe assumption that you are
incorrect.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org
hpuxrac
snip
> Mark Townsend has publicly posted statements with respect to the intent
> of the license for XE and has personally encouraged many to use XE for
> teaching purposes.
>
> As Mark represents Oracle in his capacity, and as his comments are
> a matter of public record, it is a safe assumption that you are
> incorrect.
Then why exactly would you explain ( as the OP has claimed ) that OUT
is targeting the OP?
Unless you claim to be speaking for oracle why don't you let Mr.
Townsend respond?
hjr.p...@gmail.com
Well, I look forward to Mark repeating what he told me a couple of
years ago by way of a public post on this very forum (if I remember
correctly)... which was that third-party training using XE, unlike
third-party training using otn.oracle.com downloads, would be
perfectly acceptable under the XE license terms.
Inevitably, it all comes down to the specific license conditions under
which XE was obtained and installed -and, equally inevitably,
correctly interpreting a license agreement from Oracle requires a
lawyer or a willingness to litigate, but in this case -as a non-
lawyer- I would certainly want to draw attention to the "License
Rights" paragraph of the relevant license, section (c) of which reads:
c) you may use the programs to provide third party demonstrations and
training
It is quite possible that Oracle University Turkey is as oblivious to
legal subtleties and their actual legal position as any department in
any large multinational organisation can be at times. You can't expect
them to welcome competition, after all. It's also possible that the
legal agreement signed up to in Turkey is profoundly different to the
one I just reviewed from Australia. And it's even possible that the
original poster is in violation of some **other** provision of the XE
license (such as "You agree not to use Oracle trademarks (including
"ORACLE") or potentially confusing variations (including "ORA") as a
part of your product name(s), service name(s), company name, or domain
name(s)."), but in that case, I would expect them to make it clear
which specific part of the license they consider the original poster
to be in breach of.
Oracle University will, however, be especially sensitive to any former
staff member embarking on the provision of third-party training,
particularly if there is even the slightest suggestion that the
training material being used was in any way informed, inflected or
advised by any material included in the copyrighted Oracle University
training material. It is common for corporations to insert a clause in
employment contracts to the effect that employees may not directly
compete with their employers for a given period of time after the
employer leaves the employ of the corporation precisely so as to avoid
such suggestions of the inadvertent use of copyrighted material
outside of the corporation's control.
One would, I think, need to see the specifics of the letter sent by
OUT to the original poster to see on what precise legal grounds the
corporation is taking its stance. It may not be the XE license after
all, for example, but the violation of some such non-compete
employment contract clause (the legal validity of which is often
questionable in many jurisdictions... but that's again a matter for
expensive litigation).
DA Morgan
> On Dec 29, 6:29 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
>
> snip
>
>> Mark Townsend has publicly posted statements with respect to the intent
>> of the license for XE and has personally encouraged many to use XE for
>> teaching purposes.
>>
>> As Mark represents Oracle in his capacity, and as his comments are
>> a matter of public record, it is a safe assumption that you are
>> incorrect.
>
> Then why exactly would you explain ( as the OP has claimed ) that OUT
> is targeting the OP?
We are talking about Oracle University ... does anything else need to
be said? <g> So no I can not explain it. Nor is what was posted here
necessarily the entire unbiased story.
> Unless you claim to be speaking for oracle why don't you let Mr.
> Townsend respond?
No I am not Mark's spokesperson. I just possess an ability to read
the English language. Read it for yourself at c.d.informix. He posted it
there within the last ~60 days.
hpuxrac
snip
Actually the first thing I wrote in my post here was the following.
"I would take a long look at the user agreement that comes with
Oracle
XE.".
Conveniently as you often do you ditched that part then tried to
switch around the context. Not surprised exactly.
> > Then why exactly would you explain ( as the OP has claimed ) that OUT
> > is targeting the OP?
>
> We are talking about Oracle University ... does anything else need to
> be said? <g>
If you have a statement that you are trying to make then by all means
say something. It sounds like you are intending some kind of a slam
here. Not exactly clear in either your purpose or your presumed
meaning.
>
> > Unless you claim to be speaking for oracle why don't you let Mr.
> > Townsend respond?
>
> No I am not Mark's spokesperson. I just possess an ability to read
> the English language.
Whatever.
markbt...@sbcglobal.net
we provided it. I agree with Howard - I assume that the specific
problem that OUT is having is not with the use of XE, but with
something else. If it is specifically XE, then send me the relevant
details at my alter ego, and I will sort it out.
DA Morgan
>> We are talking about Oracle University ... does anything else need to
>> be said? <g>
>
> If you have a statement that you are trying to make then by all means
> say something. It sounds like you are intending some kind of a slam
> here. Not exactly clear in either your purpose or your presumed
> meaning.
http://www.ohiou.edu/Esl/english/speaking.html
robertg...@yahoo.com
Me thinks there is more to the OP's story than meets the eye here...
Bora Yuret
I think the problem is being an alternative for Oracle University
Turkey educations.
I got a warning form Oracle Turkey's lawyer that i was using Oracle
database without license
and i was using Oracle education courseware.
But i am using Oracle Database XE for the database and using Sideris
courseware for my educations.
I also think that the problem is another thing. But i do not know
what. They only warned me that i couldn't use
Oracle Database for my educations. And i wondered if it was forbidden
to use Oracle Database XE without license.
the problem is about Gokhan Uguroglu, the manager of Oracle University
Turkey.
He doesn't allow any companies to provide Oracle educations except two
company.
But i do not know to whom i can complaint about him.
So i decided to go to Court about this subject.
Thanks for your help,
Bora YURET
HedefBilgi Bilisim Akademisi
DA Morgan
The question of whether someone can or can not use XE has been clearly
spelled out in the wording of Oracle's XE license posted here, posted in
the Informix forum, and posted on Oracle's site.
It appears that this real issue is something else entirely. Did you sign
a non-compete agreement with Oracle? A simple yes or no will suffice to
answer the question of what is actually going on.
hjr.p...@gmail.com
> Thanks for your answer,
>
> I think the problem is being an alternative for Oracle University
> Turkey educations.
> I got a warning form Oracle Turkey's lawyer that i was using Oracle
> database without license
> and i was using Oracle education courseware.
Well, we know part 1 of that sentence is incorrect if, truly, you are
using Oracle XE and nothing but Oracle XE. So long as, for example,
you're not also trying to throw in a bit of Application Server
training or Oracle Identity Management or any of the other parts of
the Oracle stack...
Part 2 of that sentence is where your troubles start, however.
I presume you are not mad enough to actually copy the Oracle
courseware and give it to your customers? That you have, instead,
written your own material?
If you have indeed used Oracle's own courseware, you'd better accept
defeat now. If you have written your own material, you had also better
be prepared to fight on the subject, because you had their own
material to hand when you wrote yours. The natural inference is going
to be that you used the one to help you write the other, and that
could be construed as breach of copyright. It would depend entirely on
the similarity of your documentation to theirs. If the format, layout,
graphics or similar stylistic elements are even vaguely similar, you
have a tough mountain to climb persuading a court that you didn't copy
any of the content, too. You will also have to bear in mind the terms
of your contract of employment with the Corporation, since that
probably has a bearing on the matter too. You had better, for example,
not started writing a word of your documentation until long after you
left Oracle's employment, or you will find that they own the copyright
in what you quite reasonably (but probably erroneously) consider to be
your own documentation.
In all these things, too, it helps to have hands that are cleaner than
clean. If you have *ever* taught with non-XE software or ever *once*
copied their courseware, you're in trouble because you've only got to
do it once for them to hold that over you for a long, long time.
> But i am using Oracle Database XE for the database and using Sideris
> courseware for my educations.
I don't know what Sideris courseware is, but it again comes down to
the issues I mentioned above.
> I also think that the problem is another thing. But i do not know
> what. They only warned me that i couldn't use
> Oracle Database for my educations. And i wondered if it was forbidden
> to use Oracle Database XE without license.
>
> the problem is about Gokhan Uguroglu, the manager of Oracle University
> Turkey.
> He doesn't allow any companies to provide Oracle educations except two
> company.
> But i do not know to whom i can complaint about him.
>
> So i decided to go to Court about this subject.
That's fine. Good luck to you. The law is there for a reason -which is
to protect people from being bullied and intimidated. If you are
genuinely using XE and only XE and if the course material you use
wasn't written by Oracle, copied from Oracle's material or was
produced whilst you were employed by Oracle, it would seem that they
have no case to answer. Only time will tell. Make sure your lawyer is
a good one, though.
Bora Yuret
Never signed a non-compete aggreement with Oracle University Turkey.
And never signed anything with them. I was only a contractor
instructor. And i have never been an employee of Oracle Turkey.
The documentation is Sideris courseware(www.sideriscourseware.com), i
did not write. I was the instructor of OUT for 4 years, so i know the
rules well. I have never copied any Oracle documentation, and did not
use slides, labs, etc. Sideris provides all of them for me.
I only use Oracle Database XE, and they tell me that it is a crime to
use XE without the authorization of Oracle Turkey. But i do not think
so. I can not just understand Oracle University Turkey. I am helping
people to learn Oracle Database, and when they finished the education,
they want to work with Oracle products. This is a benefit for Oracle
Turkey, not crime.
But they still want to stop my educations. But with your help, i
understood that it is legal to use Oracle Database XE for my
educations. So there is no problem. The court will give the right
decision.
Again very thanks for your help,
Bora YÜRET
HedefBilgi Bilisim Akademisi
(www.hedefbilgi.com)
On Jan 2, 3:19 am, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Bora Yuret wrote:
> > Thanks for your answer,
>
> > I think the problem is being an alternative for Oracle University
> > Turkey educations.
> > I got a warning form Oracle Turkey's lawyer that i was using Oracle
> > database without license
> > and i was using Oracle education courseware.
>
> > But i am using Oracle Database XE for the database and using Sideris
> > courseware for my educations.
>
> > I also think that the problem is another thing. But i do not know
> > what. They only warned me that i couldn't use
> > Oracle Database for my educations. And i wondered if it was forbidden
> > to use Oracle Database XE without license.
>
> > the problem is about Gokhan Uguroglu, the manager of Oracle University
> > Turkey.
> > He doesn't allow any companies to provide Oracle educations except two
> > company.
> > But i do not know to whom i can complaint about him.
>
> > So i decided to go to Court about this subject.
>
> > Thanks for your help,
>
> > Bora YURET
> > HedefBilgi Bilisim Akademisi
> > (www.hedefbilgi.com)
>
> > On 31 Aralýk 2007, 03:48, markbtowns...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >> You can definitely use XE to deliver training. It's one of the reasons
> >> we provided it. I agree with Howard - I assume that the specific
> >> problem that OUT is having is not with the use of XE, but with
> >> something else. If it is specifically XE, then send me the relevant
> >> details at my alter ego, and I will sort it out.
>
> The question of whether someone can or can not use XE has been clearly
> spelled out in the wording of Oracle's XE license posted here, posted in
> the Informix forum, and posted on Oracle's site.
>
> It appears that this real issue is something else entirely. Did you sign
> a non-compete agreement with Oracle? A simple yes or no will suffice to
> answer the question of what is actually going on.
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
ErikYkema
> hpuxrac wrote:
> >> We are talking about Oracle University ... does anything else need to
> >> be said? <g>
>
> > If you have a statement that you are trying to make then by all means
> > say something. It sounds like you are intending some kind of a slam
> > here. Not exactly clear in either your purpose or your presumed
> > meaning.
>
> http://www.ohiou.edu/Esl/english/speaking.html
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
> University of Washington
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
Hi Daniel,
I checked out this link but do not get what you are trying to say, and
to whom...
Regards, Erik
DA Morgan
> I presume you are not mad enough to actually copy the Oracle
> courseware and give it to your customers? That you have, instead,
> written your own material?
> I don't know what Sideris courseware is, but it again comes down to
> the issues I mentioned above.
Sideris is gray-market courseware. It is a company that "knocked-off"
Oracle's courseware and sells it to anyone wanting to compete with
Oracle U.
DA Morgan
>>>> You can definitely use XE to deliver training. It's one of the reasons
>>>> we provided it. I agree with Howard - I assume that the specific
>>>> problem that OUT is having is not with the use of XE, but with
>>>> something else. If it is specifically XE, then send me the relevant
>>>> details at my alter ego, and I will sort it out.
>> The question of whether someone can or can not use XE has been clearly
>> spelled out in the wording of Oracle's XE license posted here, posted in
>> the Informix forum, and posted on Oracle's site.
>>
>> It appears that this real issue is something else entirely. Did you sign
>> a non-compete agreement with Oracle? A simple yes or no will suffice to
>> answer the question of what is actually going on.
>> --
>> Daniel A. Morgan
>> Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
>> University of Washington
>> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
>> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
Every document on Oracle's website related to XE licensing, and every
statement by Oracle VP Mark Townsend clearly states that XE can be used
for training.
Assuming everything you've said is the truth, I note you still have not
made the actual doc available for us to read, then send Oracle U a copy
of their own licensing docs, the statements by their own VP, and ignore
them or, better yet, hire an attorney to send them a letter telling them
to stop it.
I still have doubts you are giving an accurate accounting of the facts
given you have not made the correspondence public so your statements
can be verified.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
DA Morgan
Don't worry: The person I intended it for understood perfectly.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Bora Yuret
Oracle University Turkey Country Manager(Gokhan Uguroglu), still
insists on that Oracle does not allow Express Edition to use for
educations. He says that you can use XE only for the education of
third-party applications, not for directly database education.
But Mr.Townsend's statements are of course more important for me. I
will tell these statement to OUT's country manager.
Today i talked to my lawyer, and he will send OUT tomorroy a warning
to stop threats. My lawyer was surprised too, "you help them to sell
their products by providing education, but they threaten you to stop
educations, am i right?" he asked.
I wrote here what OUT has just written to me. It is not very difficult
for OUT's country manager to read here and provide an answer if i am
wrong. I phoned him to notify about this discussion, but he did not
answer. What can i do else?
I will write here the results of or case with Oracle University
Turkey.
Bora YURET
HedefBilgi Bilisim Akademisi
(www.hedefbilgi.com)
DA Morgan
> The document is in Turkish Mr.Morgan, so i did not put it here.
And as I wrote when I first requested it my girlfriend was born
in Ankara. I suspect that means that doing so should not be a
huge issue at least for me. And I doubt I am the only person here
who has access to someone who speaks your language.
Post it if you wish to continue this.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Bora Yuret
the email between me and Gokhan Uguroglu that he doesn't allow the
usage of XE Mr. Morgan.
I do not know how to post attachment here, if anybody else want to see
these, i can send to him too.
Bora YURET
HedefBilgi Bilisim Akademisi
(www.hedefbilgi.com)
On Jan 2, 9:15 pm, DA Morgan <damor...@psoug.org> wrote:
> Bora Yuret wrote:
> > The document is in Turkish Mr.Morgan, so i did not put it here.
>
> And as I wrote when I first requested it my girlfriend was born
> in Ankara. I suspect that means that doing so should not be a
> huge issue at least for me. And I doubt I am the only person here
> who has access to someone who speaks your language.
>
> Post it if you wish to continue this.
> --
> Daniel A. Morgan
> Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
> University of Washington
> damor...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
DA Morgan
> DA Morgan says...
>> Bora Yuret wrote:
>>> The document is in Turkish Mr.Morgan, so i did not put it here.
>> And as I wrote when I first requested it my girlfriend was born
>> in Ankara. I suspect that means that doing so should not be a
>> huge issue at least for me. And I doubt I am the only person here
>> who has access to someone who speaks your language.
>>
>> Post it if you wish to continue this.
>
> side of the story and prove that Bora is a liar.
No one has said that Bora is a liar. What has been said is that
there is more to the story and that is confirmed.
I now have a copy of the letter and its translation, and I am
dealing with it in an appropriate forum which is not this usenet
group.
A copy can be found here if anyone is interested:
http://www.psoug.org/files/ihtar.jpg
If you are looking for a good soap opera try American TV. If you
are looking to contribute something constructive that would be a
welcome change.