can someone please explain what this blog tagging this is all about?

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hpuxrac

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Jan 13, 2008, 10:15:56 AM1/13/08
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As many times as HJR has changed things and ditched all of his old
content there are still at times useful articles and postings out
there.

However it looks like now both the ( old site as of just a couple of
weeks ago now ) and new and improved site are both offline and
unavailable. There's some kind of message about oracle blog tag
spamming?

Sorry I just don't understand. There was a lot of excitement several
years ago about oracle blogging but much of that excitement ( and
quality of postings ) kind of has dropped off the ege of the world.

I don't use any of the news readers ( whatever they are ) and/or
aggregators ( whatever they are ) just have a couple of url's I check
out from time to time ( limited ) as well as cdos.

So any of the background info related to what is going on and why
people might be taking websites and content offline would be
appreciated.

Thanks

Frank van Bortel

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Jan 13, 2008, 10:50:09 AM1/13/08
to

Nope - I'm baffled. Both with Howard's behavior and with
this Oracle blog spamming - looks to me if you do not want
to be in, don't - a simple as 1-2-3.

--

Regards,
Frank van Bortel

Top-posting in UseNet newsgroups is one way to shut me up

hjr.p...@gmail.com

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Jan 13, 2008, 6:46:13 PM1/13/08
to
On Jan 14, 2:50 am, Frank van Bortel <frank.van.bor...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I must say it's this attitude I find bewildering.

You're on a train, reading. Your neighbour is wearing an ipod. He
decides to turn the volume up so that the sksshh-sksssh-sksssh of the
beat disturbs you. You politely ask the person to turn their ipod
down. They refuse to do so, saying 'it ain't that loud, mister. What's
your problem?'

So much for hypotheticals. Let's consider real blog aggregators. Blog
aggregators take feeds from many people's blogs. Visiting one site
lets you see the totality of what's going on in the Oracle 'blogging
community' with one quick overview. Very useful, very functional.
Unfortunately, aggregating things together means that what for an
individual blogger is one trivial little post gets aggregated together
with everyone else's trivial little posts and suddenly it's not a
trivial little problem any more. Suddenly, there's a mountain of
collected posts generated by this "game", driving out almost any other
information.

Blog aggregators work by showing new posts at the top of the page. As
new posts arrive, old posts get shunted downwards... until they fall
off the page altogether. Because of the sudden influx of '8 things'
posts (shorthand for the blog tagging pyramid scheme's posts), one of
my blog posts went onto the front page of OraNA and disappeared off it
in slightly over twelve minutes. If it happens to my posts, it happens
to others' too. So now OraNA isn't a great overview of what's
happening in the Oracle blogging, but is instead swamped with 'me-too'
posts from people who have chosen to participate in the pyramid scheme
known as blog tagging.

That is a loss of functionality. It is inconvenient to me. It is
disruptive to me. If it is inconvenient to me and causing me
disruption, I am fairly confident that it will be inconvenient and
disrupting to others. Lots of others. But maybe not you.

So I wrote to about 4 or 5 of the people who had 'passed it on', each
to about 8 others, to ask them would they mind contacting their 8 and
asking *them* not to pass the thing on further as it was damaging the
aggregation functionality. One of them replied that it was his blog
and he'd do what he liked. Besides, the people running the blog
aggregators were 'skimming' his work, probably to their financial
advantage not his. Another replied that as he didn't use OraNA
himself, it didn't seem like much of a problem. The others didn't
respond at all.

So I blogged about it, simply pointing out that if things went
according to the quite open plans of the devisor of the tagging
"game", by round 4, there would 4096 me-too '8 things' posts. I didn't
demand anything. I didn't call anyone anything. I simply pointed out
the maths and asked whether people would please stop 'passing it on':
by all means post 8 personal things about yourself, but don't
encourage 8 others to do the same, on and on, because to do so would
be to cause damage to the aggregators. For this I was accused by one
of throwing my weight around ("When I signed up to my blog I didn't
realise I had signed your terms and conditions"), another said simply
that I was just being "grumpy" and a third simply said, "Chill dude,
you'll have an aneurysm". As if this has anything to do with my
emotional state or a desire to dictate to others!

That is precisely the "it ain't loud, mister" response I would expect
to have to put up with on the train, but had hoped I wouldn't have to
put up with from members of a supposed "community" of bloggers.

You tell me Frank: if I don't "want to be in" (which I don't), tell me
how, simple as 1-2-3, I "don't". That's like saying, if you don't like
the white noise coming from the earbuds of the guy sitting next to
you, don't listen! But the fact of the matter is that the choices of
others have impinged on the functionality of a website I use. Their
actions have **taken away** my choice not to participate. Whether I
like it or not, OraNA gets flooded with these posts, and I can't opt
out of that.

Oh, considerate members of the Oracle blogging community have said I
could learn to use an RSS reader: you can filter those, after all. (As
if I didn't know about RSS readers already!) Trouble is, how do I
install an RSS reader on a SOE PC? Or on a friend's PC? Or on a PC to
which I don't have rights to install anything? No problem: Firefox has
a reader built-in. Great... so what do I do if I don't use Firefox? Or
my SOE PC dictates IE6 and nothing else?

This is the "if you don't like the noise, mister, sit somewhere else"
school of nuisance management. It's **my** fault for being there, and
the solution is for **me** to move, even though the noise and buisance
is being made by someone else! No thanks: all these workarounds assume
too much and miss the "moral hazard" of making the victim take action
to ameliorate the consequences of the actions of the perpetrators.

I thought of starting my own blog tagging game. I'd start with a post
that went something like this: "Post 8 personal things about yourself
and pass this note onto 8 other people. Bill Gates will donate $1 for
every time this note is passed on to another group of 8 people". What
would happen then, Frank, do you think? This, too, would be seen as an
innocent bit of fun? A game to enjoy, nothing to worry about? I don't
think so. When you get those sorts of posts in your inbox, you call it
spam. The Oracle community has just indulged in a giant bit of
spamming. I'm told by Tim Hall that it's not spam at all because it's
not written by anonymous commentators on a blog but by the blog
authors themselves. I'm supposed to believe this makes it alright, but
to me, it makes it much worse.

So what about my behaviour don't you understand, Frank? If I find
train travel noxious, abhorrent, noisy and unpleasant because of the
behaviour of my fellow, but inconsiderate, passengers, would you be
surprised if I started driving in to work? I find what has happened
pretty unpleasant. I find the attitude of those involved in what you
quite correctly call 'blog spamming' abhorrent. I simply don't see why
I should, or should be expected to, continue to make my work available
to such a community. That's unfortunate for the many who haven't
engaged in this round of spamming, but then perhaps those people
should make their voice heard. Passive acquiesence in the vandalism
perpetrated by a few gets you a slum with no nice amenities, after
all.

I have been told my action is disproportionate, but the people saying
that don't (it seems to me) appear to appreciate the scale of what has
just gone on here. Like you, they shrug and say, 'don't like it, don't
read it'. To them, it's trivial, so my response seems completely way
off beam. But I see a site has been vandalised and a mode of behaviour
condoned which, in any other context you care to mention, would be
condemned as a pyramid scheme, spam, a virus, a distributed denial of
service attack -call it what you will, but those involved with the
Internet generally do not take kindly to things which propagate
exponentially with a seemingly benign payload.

I won't make my material available to a community that thinks
generating and encouraging exponential traffic growth is a game and
that so long as it doesn't affect them personally, it can't be that
important. Simple as that.

Cristian Cudizio

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Jan 14, 2008, 3:33:28 AM1/14/08
to

Personally i don't like very much the the chain game, i find it a
little bit childish.
On the other hand we can't think that blog's are only a way to publish
technical content.
As John i don't use news readers, i prefer to have some saved URL that
i regularly
check. I know that's not so good.
I've to say that most important bloggers (to me) as Kevin Closson, Tom
Kyte, Jonathan Lewis
did'n played "8-thing" game. Those who has played wanted to have more
hits
on their website or blog.
i'm afraid that dizwell site is not available, i hope that this game
will end
early.

Regards,
Cristian Cudizio

Frank van Bortel

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 4:18:58 AM1/14/08
to
Sorry to hear that.

>
> You're on a train, reading. Your neighbour is wearing an ipod. He
> decides to turn the volume up so that the sksshh-sksssh-sksssh of the
> beat disturbs you. You politely ask the person to turn their ipod
> down. They refuse to do so, saying 'it ain't that loud, mister. What's
> your problem?'

If this is what you think is happening, you're wrong. You're not on a
train (paid for, service bought) - you brought your car for maintenance
to this workshop with mentally disabled people.
They're free, they're good at their job, but simply cannot plan,
so you'll never know when your car will be done.
Don't complain; if planning if vital to you in this case, go
to another garage.

>
> So much for hypotheticals. Let's consider real blog aggregators. Blog
> aggregators take feeds from many people's blogs. Visiting one site
> lets you see the totality of what's going on in the Oracle 'blogging
> community' with one quick overview. Very useful, very functional.

Sounds like there's more than one aggregator. Do you sign up for such
a thing, or is it -as I am thinking- a "free service" ?

> Unfortunately, aggregating things together means that what for an
> individual blogger is one trivial little post gets aggregated together
> with everyone else's trivial little posts and suddenly it's not a
> trivial little problem any more. Suddenly, there's a mountain of
> collected posts generated by this "game", driving out almost any other
> information.

Still with you: there's a lot of noise, you are not interested in.

>
> Blog aggregators work by showing new posts at the top of the page. As
> new posts arrive, old posts get shunted downwards... until they fall
> off the page altogether. Because of the sudden influx of '8 things'
> posts (shorthand for the blog tagging pyramid scheme's posts), one of
> my blog posts went onto the front page of OraNA and disappeared off it
> in slightly over twelve minutes. If it happens to my posts, it happens
> to others' too. So now OraNA isn't a great overview of what's
> happening in the Oracle blogging, but is instead swamped with 'me-too'
> posts from people who have chosen to participate in the pyramid scheme
> known as blog tagging.

Is this the heart of the matter? One of your posts became invisible
on one (1) aggregator after just 12 minutes?
Are you in any way depending on how long your posts are on this site?
Financially? Esteem?

>
> That is a loss of functionality. It is inconvenient to me. It is
> disruptive to me. If it is inconvenient to me and causing me
> disruption, I am fairly confident that it will be inconvenient and
> disrupting to others. Lots of others. But maybe not you.

No - not to me, indeed. And I fail to see the functionality
loss in an aggregator, that is not yours to start with.
Again - if this is a service you pay for, things are different.
If provided for free, it's like this ng - you get what you
pay for.

Couldn't start your own? Sounds not that difficult.

>
> So I wrote to about 4 or 5 of the people who had 'passed it on', each
> to about 8 others, to ask them would they mind contacting their 8 and
> asking *them* not to pass the thing on further as it was damaging the
> aggregation functionality. One of them replied that it was his blog
> and he'd do what he liked. Besides, the people running the blog
> aggregators were 'skimming' his work, probably to their financial
> advantage not his. Another replied that as he didn't use OraNA
> himself, it didn't seem like much of a problem. The others didn't
> respond at all.

So you can "use" orana. What I get is a "I got mail" server/service?!?


>
> So I blogged about it, simply pointing out that if things went
> according to the quite open plans of the devisor of the tagging
> "game", by round 4, there would 4096 me-too '8 things' posts. I didn't
> demand anything. I didn't call anyone anything. I simply pointed out
> the maths and asked whether people would please stop 'passing it on':
> by all means post 8 personal things about yourself, but don't
> encourage 8 others to do the same, on and on, because to do so would
> be to cause damage to the aggregators. For this I was accused by one
> of throwing my weight around ("When I signed up to my blog I didn't
> realise I had signed your terms and conditions"), another said simply
> that I was just being "grumpy" and a third simply said, "Chill dude,
> you'll have an aneurysm". As if this has anything to do with my
> emotional state or a desire to dictate to others!

Well, it sure looks like you're emotionally involved to an
innocent bystander (like myself).
Besides, nowadays, it's all about being seen (on the internet).
I am from another generation, and so are you (we differ less
than a decade in age). I am not into Hyves, FaceBook, Plaxo, and
who-knows-what social sites all that much, but others are.
I suspect this blog-tagging is one way of getting exposure, and
commenting on that would jeopardize the exposure and thus cause
exactly the type of reactions you are experiencing.

>
> That is precisely the "it ain't loud, mister" response I would expect
> to have to put up with on the train, but had hoped I wouldn't have to
> put up with from members of a supposed "community" of bloggers.
>
> You tell me Frank: if I don't "want to be in" (which I don't), tell me
> how, simple as 1-2-3, I "don't".

Do not visit the orana site.


That's like saying, if you don't like
> the white noise coming from the earbuds of the guy sitting next to
> you, don't listen! But the fact of the matter is that the choices of
> others have impinged on the functionality of a website I use. Their
> actions have **taken away** my choice not to participate. Whether I
> like it or not, OraNA gets flooded with these posts, and I can't opt
> out of that.

Do not read/visit OraNA - really, life is simple, Howard - enjoy.
Or the aneurysm part might become true, and this really is not
a reason for it. Been there.
And regular train commuters all know how not to listen to things:
the sound of the tracks, conversations, ipods...


>
> Oh, considerate members of the Oracle blogging community have said I
> could learn to use an RSS reader: you can filter those, after all. (As
> if I didn't know about RSS readers already!) Trouble is, how do I
> install an RSS reader on a SOE PC? Or on a friend's PC? Or on a PC to
> which I don't have rights to install anything? No problem: Firefox has
> a reader built-in. Great... so what do I do if I don't use Firefox? Or
> my SOE PC dictates IE6 and nothing else?

There are more aggregators, aren't there? Don't ask me, I'm not in that
("what's an ipod?"), but you're not dependent on this one, are you?
Besides, oraNA sounds like a "stupid" aggregator - it cannot distinguish
anything interesting from this, rather annoying, "me too" stuff.

>
> This is the "if you don't like the noise, mister, sit somewhere else"
> school of nuisance management. It's **my** fault for being there, and
> the solution is for **me** to move, even though the noise and buisance
> is being made by someone else! No thanks: all these workarounds assume
> too much and miss the "moral hazard" of making the victim take action
> to ameliorate the consequences of the actions of the perpetrators.
>
> I thought of starting my own blog tagging game. I'd start with a post
> that went something like this: "Post 8 personal things about yourself
> and pass this note onto 8 other people. Bill Gates will donate $1 for
> every time this note is passed on to another group of 8 people". What
> would happen then, Frank, do you think? This, too, would be seen as an
> innocent bit of fun? A game to enjoy, nothing to worry about? I don't
> think so. When you get those sorts of posts in your inbox, you call it
> spam. The Oracle community has just indulged in a giant bit of
> spamming. I'm told by Tim Hall that it's not spam at all because it's
> not written by anonymous commentators on a blog but by the blog
> authors themselves. I'm supposed to believe this makes it alright, but
> to me, it makes it much worse.
>
> So what about my behaviour don't you understand, Frank? If I find
> train travel noxious, abhorrent, noisy and unpleasant because of the
> behaviour of my fellow,

Ok - so strike the comments on regular train commuters, I made
before. You are obviously not fit for train commuting.

but inconsiderate, passengers, would you be
> surprised if I started driving in to work? I find what has happened
> pretty unpleasant.

You made that clear. Unpleasant being a very British word, not to
say understatement.

I find the attitude of those involved in what you
> quite correctly call 'blog spamming' abhorrent. I simply don't see why
> I should, or should be expected to, continue to make my work available
> to such a community.

It is not new. Anything that goes into this newsgroup is copied onto
group aggregators, too. I am a "specialist" or "guru" member of groups,
I did not know the name, or url of. I never signed up nor posted, still,
postings made here end up as threads on these bulletin board like sites.
I do not care - I did post, yes, on the internet. And that is open
for the world to see. It is not my responsibility what others do with
it, as long as it is used in context, with my name, etc, etc.

But I am not dependent on those sites, but you sound like you are.

Your reaction is one of a school master: you cannot get your
hands on the one boy, you *know* did it, so you make everyone
stay in.

That's unfortunate for the many who haven't
> engaged in this round of spamming, but then perhaps those people
> should make their voice heard. Passive acquiesence in the vandalism
> perpetrated by a few gets you a slum with no nice amenities, after
> all.

Eh? Could you run that in American?


>
> I have been told my action is disproportionate, but the people saying
> that don't (it seems to me) appear to appreciate the scale of what has
> just gone on here. Like you, they shrug and say, 'don't like it, don't
> read it'. To them, it's trivial, so my response seems completely way
> off beam.

You got that right, hence my reaction.

But I see a site has been vandalised and a mode of behaviour
> condoned which, in any other context you care to mention, would be
> condemned as a pyramid scheme, spam, a virus, a distributed denial of
> service attack -call it what you will, but those involved with the
> Internet generally do not take kindly to things which propagate
> exponentially with a seemingly benign payload.
>
> I won't make my material available to a community that thinks
> generating and encouraging exponential traffic growth is a game and
> that so long as it doesn't affect them personally, it can't be that
> important. Simple as that.

I respect your views (therefor, I have not snipped any part of
your reply), but am still in the dark about your rationale.
I cannot understand why someone would get all exited because
one site gathers so much information, that your information gets
scrolled out within 12 minutes in favor of "gossip" and "me, too".

The fact, that I fail to understand may very well say more about
me than about you, Howard.
If I had not done so, I wish you a prosperous 2008!

shakespeare

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 3:23:31 PM1/14/08
to

<hjr.p...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:e2155c85-cf44-4528...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

I run a 'blog-collector' as well, and surprisingly, most 'me tagged too,
eight things' hits are comments on these blogs, not the blogs themselves.

Shakespeare


Maxim Demenko

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 3:41:32 PM1/14/08
to shakespeare
shakespeare schrieb:

What proves, that HJR theory about 8**4 is not(fully) applicable to
social networks (as of systimestamp), which doesn't minder the weight of
his concerns however...

Best regards

Maxim

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 4:51:00 PM1/14/08
to
On Jan 14, 8:18 pm, Frank van Bortel <frank.van.bor...@gmail.com>
wrote:


Why do you think my blog is free? I pay for hosting. I carry Google
ads that earn money. This isn't Linux: don't complain, you didn't pay
for it. Quite the opposite.

If you mean I don't pay for OraBlogs or OraNA, quite right. I don't.
So that makes it OK for other people to vandalise it, does it?


> > So much for hypotheticals. Let's consider real blog aggregators. Blog
> > aggregators take feeds from many people's blogs. Visiting one site
> > lets you see the totality of what's going on in the Oracle 'blogging
> > community' with one quick overview. Very useful, very functional.
>
> Sounds like there's more than one aggregator. Do you sign up for such
> a thing, or is it -as I am thinking- a "free service" ?

When seemingly large sections of the Oracle community simply don't
appear to "get" what a Blog aggregator in the first place, I am not
entirely surprised that they don't care when one or more is ruined.

It's not a service. It's someone's blog of blogs. They take each
blog's RSS feed and turn it into a browseable webpage (amongst other
things). They thus provide a service to the Oracle community at large,
for free.

> > Unfortunately, aggregating things together means that what for an
> > individual blogger is one trivial little post gets aggregated together
> > with everyone else's trivial little posts and suddenly it's not a
> > trivial little problem any more. Suddenly, there's a mountain of
> > collected posts generated by this "game", driving out almost any other
> > information.
>
> Still with you: there's a lot of noise, you are not interested in.
>
>
>
> > Blog aggregators work by showing new posts at the top of the page. As
> > new posts arrive, old posts get shunted downwards... until they fall
> > off the page altogether. Because of the sudden influx of '8 things'
> > posts (shorthand for the blog tagging pyramid scheme's posts), one of
> > my blog posts went onto the front page of OraNA and disappeared off it
> > in slightly over twelve minutes. If it happens to my posts, it happens
> > to others' too. So now OraNA isn't a great overview of what's
> > happening in the Oracle blogging, but is instead swamped with 'me-too'
> > posts from people who have chosen to participate in the pyramid scheme
> > known as blog tagging.
>
> Is this the heart of the matter? One of your posts became invisible
> on one (1) aggregator after just 12 minutes?
> Are you in any way depending on how long your posts are on this site?
> Financially? Esteem?


Come on. At least try to pretend you're not just belittling the
situation.

I measured what happened to my post. If it happens to my post, it
happens to other posts. In fact, it happened to all posts at that
particular point.

> > That is a loss of functionality. It is inconvenient to me. It is
> > disruptive to me. If it is inconvenient to me and causing me
> > disruption, I am fairly confident that it will be inconvenient and
> > disrupting to others. Lots of others. But maybe not you.
>
> No - not to me, indeed. And I fail to see the functionality
> loss in an aggregator, that is not yours to start with.
> Again - if this is a service you pay for, things are different.
> If provided for free, it's like this ng - you get what you
> pay for.

Do you pay for Google?

Do you ever use Google?

If someone launched a distributed denial of service attack against
Google and made it unavailable, according to you that would be fine.
Because Google provides their search service for free, so what do you
care at the loss of functionality.

Those people who run the Samaritans help line that troubled people can
call when suicidal (not sure if it's called that in your neck of the
woods or not): it's OK to make prank calls to them and tie their lines
up, is it? Because that's not a service anyone pays for. It's
volunteers. Therefore, there are no 'service level agreements' you can
insist on, so ruining the service for those that make use of it is
fine, apparently.

Blog aggregators provide a service. Chain letters swamp that service.
Therefore this particular chain letter was a bad thing that needed to
be stopped.


> Couldn't start your own? Sounds not that difficult.

I could do all sorts of things, Frank. Of course, last week, I didn't
have to do anything because everything was just fine.

> > So I wrote to about 4 or 5 of the people who had 'passed it on', each
> > to about 8 others, to ask them would they mind contacting their 8 and
> > asking *them* not to pass the thing on further as it was damaging the
> > aggregation functionality. One of them replied that it was his blog
> > and he'd do what he liked. Besides, the people running the blog
> > aggregators were 'skimming' his work, probably to their financial
> > advantage not his. Another replied that as he didn't use OraNA
> > himself, it didn't seem like much of a problem. The others didn't
> > respond at all.
>
> So you can "use" orana. What I get is a "I got mail" server/service?!?

Look, if you don't know what OraNA is, what a blog aggregator is, what
the concept of freely-offered community service is, you're really not
in any position to comment on my behaviour, are you?

> > So I blogged about it, simply pointing out that if things went
> > according to the quite open plans of the devisor of the tagging
> > "game", by round 4, there would 4096 me-too '8 things' posts. I didn't
> > demand anything. I didn't call anyone anything. I simply pointed out
> > the maths and asked whether people would please stop 'passing it on':
> > by all means post 8 personal things about yourself, but don't
> > encourage 8 others to do the same, on and on, because to do so would
> > be to cause damage to the aggregators. For this I was accused by one
> > of throwing my weight around ("When I signed up to my blog I didn't
> > realise I had signed your terms and conditions"), another said simply
> > that I was just being "grumpy" and a third simply said, "Chill dude,
> > you'll have an aneurysm". As if this has anything to do with my
> > emotional state or a desire to dictate to others!
>
> Well, it sure looks like you're emotionally involved to an
> innocent bystander (like myself).

Define "emotionally involved". I have been inconvenienced. I have had
functionality I used and relied on withdrawn from me. I see otherwise
intelligent people writing that they know it's a chain mail, they hate
chain mails, but just this once...

Yes, that annoys me. Yes, I am disappointed by that. Yes, I am
disgusted at the level of personal abuse that has come my way because
I dared to ask 4 people to do something and posting a blog that
mentioned the power of a geometric progression.

But I think you mean to imply a level of emotional involvement that
provokes irrational "behaviour", as you put it. No, I am not
emotionally involved to the extent where I would do strange,
irrational or disproportionate things.

> Besides, nowadays, it's all about being seen (on the internet).

Speak for yourself. I write my articles and my blog for the same
reason I always did: primarily as an aide memoir to myself;
secondarily as a help to others if they need it; thirdly, because I
quite like writing and don't think I'm too bad at it. Being "seen" has
nothing to do with it.

> I am from another generation, and so are you (we differ less
> than a decade in age).

Don't make assumptions, Frank, about what (perhaps) sharing a
generation means as far as what I am "into". Stick to the known facts
and deductions from them, please. Because otherwise you're just
talking from a position of 100% ignorance, in this respect at least.

>I am not into Hyves, FaceBook, Plaxo, and
> who-knows-what social sites all that much, but others are.
> I suspect this blog-tagging is one way of getting exposure, and
> commenting on that would jeopardize the exposure and thus cause
> exactly the type of reactions you are experiencing.
>
>
>
> > That is precisely the "it ain't loud, mister" response I would expect
> > to have to put up with on the train, but had hoped I wouldn't have to
> > put up with from members of a supposed "community" of bloggers.
>
> > You tell me Frank: if I don't "want to be in" (which I don't), tell me
> > how, simple as 1-2-3, I "don't".
>
> Do not visit the orana site.

I really don't mind when people assess my argument carefully and then
decide I'm wrong. But to respond as if I'd not put forward an argument
at all just irritates me.

I like OraNA, I've used it for months without trouble. It's very
useful for getting a global view of what the blogging community is up
to. Not visiting it isn't an option -or rather (and this is the entire
point) it *shouldn't* be.

> That's like saying, if you don't like
>
> > the white noise coming from the earbuds of the guy sitting next to
> > you, don't listen! But the fact of the matter is that the choices of
> > others have impinged on the functionality of a website I use. Their
> > actions have **taken away** my choice not to participate. Whether I
> > like it or not, OraNA gets flooded with these posts, and I can't opt
> > out of that.
>
> Do not read/visit OraNA - really, life is simple, Howard - enjoy.
> Or the aneurysm part might become true, and this really is not
> a reason for it. Been there.
> And regular train commuters all know how not to listen to things:
> the sound of the tracks, conversations, ipods...

OK, so it was pointless trying to explain myself to you, then.

Fine. I won't explain myself any more, but please stop, by way of
return, making pronouncements about my "behaviour" that you
professedly don't understand.


> > Oh, considerate members of the Oracle blogging community have said I
> > could learn to use an RSS reader: you can filter those, after all. (As
> > if I didn't know about RSS readers already!) Trouble is, how do I
> > install an RSS reader on a SOE PC? Or on a friend's PC? Or on a PC to
> > which I don't have rights to install anything? No problem: Firefox has
> > a reader built-in. Great... so what do I do if I don't use Firefox? Or
> > my SOE PC dictates IE6 and nothing else?
>
> There are more aggregators, aren't there? Don't ask me, I'm not in that
> ("what's an ipod?"), but you're not dependent on this one, are you?

Frank. Come on. This is basic stuff. What do aggregators do? Aggregate
oracle-related blogs. If one aggregator is clogged with '8 things'
posts, what do you think will be happening to the other aggregators?

> Besides, oraNA sounds like a "stupid" aggregator - it cannot distinguish
> anything interesting from this, rather annoying, "me too" stuff.

That you don't understand the technology is evident, Frank. Try not to
dig too deep a hole.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 5:32:04 PM1/14/08
to

> > That's unfortunate for the many who haven't
> > engaged in this round of spamming, but then perhaps those people
> > should make their voice heard. Passive acquiesence in the vandalism
> > perpetrated by a few gets you a slum with no nice amenities, after
> > all.
>
> Eh? Could you run that in American?

Certainly, though it reads much the same in whatever quaint dialect of
English I write it!

If you just stand by and let vandalism take place without lifting a
finger to stop it, you will soon end up living in an unpleasant slum,
with no pleasant amenities to make use of (like functioning bus
shelters, elevators that work, car parks to use where your car will be
safe and not broken into etc. etc.)

Similarly, if you just stand by and let these "game players" have
their chain letters without uttering one word of protest or concern,
you will end up operating in an Oracle community that is devoid of
quite a bit of useful, accessible content. Those few dozen people who
have written asking for a password to the current Dizwell site and
wondering when the articles will be made available again should maybe
do something about the chain letter phenomenon, therefore.

Frank van Bortel

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 4:32:47 AM1/15/08
to
hjr.p...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> If you mean I don't pay for OraBlogs or OraNA, quite right. I don't.
> So that makes it OK for other people to vandalise it, does it?

Vandalism is your definition. Obviously not of the owner, nor of a part
of the user community. Actually, you seem to be the only one being
annoyed.


> It's not a service. It's someone's blog of blogs. They take each
> blog's RSS feed and turn it into a browseable webpage (amongst other
> things). They thus provide a service to the Oracle community at large,
> for free.

Make up your mind - is it a service, or isn't it?
It is, and it's for free. You use it. If you do not like it, get
over it, provide your own, better service, use another, whatever.

How often did you change dizwell to a point services did not
work anymore?!? Re-register, etc, etc? Did someone start raging
to a level you do? Did not thinks so.

>> Is this the heart of the matter? One of your posts became invisible
>> on one (1) aggregator after just 12 minutes?
>> Are you in any way depending on how long your posts are on this site?
>> Financially? Esteem?
>
>
> Come on. At least try to pretend you're not just belittling the
> situation.

Let's pretend I am. Just answer the question.

>
> I measured what happened to my post. If it happens to my post, it
> happens to other posts. In fact, it happened to all posts at that
> particular point.
>
>>> That is a loss of functionality. It is inconvenient to me. It is
>>> disruptive to me. If it is inconvenient to me and causing me
>>> disruption, I am fairly confident that it will be inconvenient and
>>> disrupting to others. Lots of others. But maybe not you.
>> No - not to me, indeed. And I fail to see the functionality
>> loss in an aggregator, that is not yours to start with.
>> Again - if this is a service you pay for, things are different.
>> If provided for free, it's like this ng - you get what you
>> pay for.
>
> Do you pay for Google?
>
> Do you ever use Google?
>
> If someone launched a distributed denial of service attack against
> Google and made it unavailable, according to you that would be fine.

Where did I say that? Do not jump to conclusions.

> Because Google provides their search service for free, so what do you
> care at the loss of functionality.

I would care. Do not put words in my mouth.
But I'd switch to yahoo, and get on with life. No big deal.

> Blog aggregators provide a service. Chain letters swamp that service.
> Therefore this particular chain letter was a bad thing that needed to
> be stopped.

Well, seems like you failed. Seems like you upset quite a lot of
people, that found your site quite useful, by shutting it down.
I'm one of them - I just needed some information, I knew was on
your site. I was unpleasantly surprised.

>> So you can "use" orana. What I get is a "I got mail" server/service?!?
>
> Look, if you don't know what OraNA is, what a blog aggregator is, what
> the concept of freely-offered community service is, you're really not
> in any position to comment on my behaviour, are you?

I do not need to know the inner workings of the latest toy to know
a spoiled child reacting when not getting it. And I do know how
to recognize a spoiled child, which qualifies me to comment on
your behavior.

>
> Define "emotionally involved". I have been inconvenienced. I have had
> functionality I used and relied on withdrawn from me.

>

> Yes, that annoys me. Yes, I am disappointed by that.

Reread your own words, asif they were mine, complaining about the fact
you brought dizwell down.

>
> But I think you mean to imply a level of emotional involvement that
> provokes irrational "behaviour", as you put it. No, I am not
> emotionally involved to the extent where I would do strange,
> irrational or disproportionate things.
>

[snip out of context response]


>
>> That's like saying, if you don't like
>>
>>> the white noise coming from the earbuds of the guy sitting next to
>>> you, don't listen! But the fact of the matter is that the choices of
>>> others have impinged on the functionality of a website I use. Their
>>> actions have **taken away** my choice not to participate. Whether I
>>> like it or not, OraNA gets flooded with these posts, and I can't opt
>>> out of that.
>> Do not read/visit OraNA - really, life is simple, Howard - enjoy.
>> Or the aneurysm part might become true, and this really is not
>> a reason for it. Been there.
>> And regular train commuters all know how not to listen to things:
>> the sound of the tracks, conversations, ipods...
>
> OK, so it was pointless trying to explain myself to you, then.

I already established that as a wrong parallel.


>
> Fine. I won't explain myself any more, but please stop, by way of
> return, making pronouncements about my "behaviour" that you
> professedly don't understand.
>

The original "I'm baffled with you behavior" still stands, and
you still fail to make clear why you overreact the way you do.

You are of course in no way obliged to do so, but I'm not the
only one (I did not start the thread), that wonders.

>
> That you don't understand the technology is evident, Frank. Try not to
> dig too deep a hole.

Now, who's belittling?
Let's just stop here, it's just not worth it.

breakableoracle

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 6:24:39 AM1/15/08
to
Howard

I agree with you. I happened to try http://www.ora-click.com/ for the
first time last week and it was full of "I've been tagged" blogs. It
made it look like a junk website. It's not quite so bad now and orana
(http://orana.info/) looks mostly clear. A colleague of mine told me
a similar phenomenon swept through the Sun blogosphere a few months
ago.

I hope you decide to bring back your websites soon. I use the content
in them regularly and find them extremely useful. Did you consider
instead stopping the production of new content in protest rather than
remove the sites completely? For example I am keenly awaiting the 64-
bit extension of DORIS, your Oracle installation script. Additionally
some of your content is very generic (for example your page on the
UNIX utility rlwrap appears on the first page of a Google search) and
has potential readers from outside the Oracle universe.

Regards

Patrick

diz...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 5:37:49 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 15, 8:32 pm, Frank van Bortel <frank.van.bor...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > If you mean I don't pay for OraBlogs or OraNA, quite right. I don't.
> > So that makes it OK for other people to vandalise it, does it?
>
> Vandalism is your definition. Obviously not of the owner, nor of a part
> of the user community. Actually, you seem to be the only one being
> annoyed.

Actually not. Tom Kyte, Jonathan Lewis... well, I don't say they've
been annoyed, but they certainly haven't joined in all the hilarity,
have they? Several people wrote on OraNA saying they were not pleased.
Look at the post in this very newsgroup below yours.

That you don't "get" it is fine. But you should avoid making
judgements about what groups think when you don't "get it". You should
also avoid making judgements about behaviour which is predicated on
damage being done to a technology you don't seem to fully grasp, too.

> > It's not a service. It's someone's blog of blogs. They take each
> > blog's RSS feed and turn it into a browseable webpage (amongst other
> > things). They thus provide a service to the Oracle community at large,
> > for free.
>
> Make up your mind - is it a service, or isn't it?

It's not a paid-for or sign-up-and-subscribe service in the sense I
believe you meant. It's a service provided by someone generously to
the Oracle community.

> It is, and it's for free. You use it. If you do not like it, get
> over it, provide your own, better service, use another, whatever.
>
> How often did you change dizwell to a point services did not
> work anymore?!? Re-register, etc, etc? Did someone start raging
> to a level you do? Did not thinks so.

False comparison. If OraNA has to go offline for whatever reasons
Eddie thinks appropriate, that's Eddie's entire right and
responsibility. If OraNA is taken offline because someone directs a
DDoS attack against his servers, that's not OK. What a site owner does
with their site is the owner's own affair. When third parties attack
their sites, that is not the same thing at all and is not acceptable.

Now, you might not then go then next step which is to see the chain
letter as an attach on OraNA (on blog aggregators generally,
actually), but I do. You don't have to agree with the point to accept
that there *is* a point to be argued.

> >> Is this the heart of the matter? One of your posts became invisible
> >> on one (1) aggregator after just 12 minutes?
> >> Are you in any way depending on how long your posts are on this site?
> >> Financially? Esteem?
>
> > Come on. At least try to pretend you're not just belittling the
> > situation.
>
> Let's pretend I am. Just answer the question.

I did. No it's not the heart of the matter that one of my posts became
invisible on one aggregator after 12 minutes. It is that ALL posts at
around that time would have become invisible after 12 minutes on ALL
blogs. I did say that first time.

> > I measured what happened to my post. If it happens to my post, it
> > happens to other posts. In fact, it happened to all posts at that
> > particular point.

Oh look... there it is.

If you are still asking am I financially affected by the chain mail
and its effects on OraNA, the answer is no. I carry Google
advertising, so I probably lose rather less than $1 per day by having
no visitors at all. Not having some people get 'driven' to the site
via a blog aggregator not functioning as smoothly as it used to
probably costs me a cent or so per day. So, no: there is no financial
dependency aggravating my annoyance at what has happened to the blog
aggregators.

> >>> That is a loss of functionality. It is inconvenient to me. It is
> >>> disruptive to me. If it is inconvenient to me and causing me
> >>> disruption, I am fairly confident that it will be inconvenient and
> >>> disrupting to others. Lots of others. But maybe not you.
> >> No - not to me, indeed. And I fail to see the functionality
> >> loss in an aggregator, that is not yours to start with.
> >> Again - if this is a service you pay for, things are different.
> >> If provided for free, it's like this ng - you get what you
> >> pay for.
>
> > Do you pay for Google?
>
> > Do you ever use Google?
>
> > If someone launched a distributed denial of service attack against
> > Google and made it unavailable, according to you that would be fine.
>
> Where did I say that? Do not jump to conclusions.

You said I was over-reacting to OraNA being affected by this chain
mail game because it's not something I pay for and therefore I have no
rights to expect any given level of service or utility. All I was
pointing out was that you don't pay for Google, but it would NOT be OK
for someone to make the Google site non-functional so that you
couldn't effectively use it for searching. That you don't pay for
something doesn't give someone else the right to ruin it.

I also used the example of the suicide hotlines: not something I
personally have ever made use of, but I would still consider it
unacceptable to tie their lines up with prank phone calls. That you
personally don't use something doesn't give someone else the right to
ruin it.

That was the only point I was trying to make by way of comparison.

> > Because Google provides their search service for free, so what do you
> > care at the loss of functionality.
>
> I would care. Do not put words in my mouth.

It was a hypothetical. And it made you respond that you **would**
care. Great. Now: I care about OraNA not **hypothetically** being
degraded in functionality, but actually having been.

> But I'd switch to yahoo, and get on with life. No big deal.

That you would have to work around the problem is not the point. That
you would find it a nuisance and you'd care about it is, however.

Incidentally, what blog aggregator would you suggest I switch to on
this occasion? Bearing in mind that all aggregators pretty much
aggregate the same set of Oracle blogs, what happens to OraNA would
also have happened to all the others. (As someone has just confirmed,
incidentally). So again, false comparison. You have a choice of search
engines to switch to when one gets knocked out. I don't have a choice
of blog aggregators to switch to because what knocks one out knocks
them all out.

> > Blog aggregators provide a service. Chain letters swamp that service.
> > Therefore this particular chain letter was a bad thing that needed to
> > be stopped.
>
> Well, seems like you failed.

Well, so what? That I cannot single-handedly solve all the problems
that afflict the Internet is not a matter for any great surprise! It
doesn't mean I just sit by and watch silently, though, when I see
reckless "gang" behaviour ruining something I care about.

In passing, though, it is impossible to prove a negative. People are
now saying to me, 'Well, it's quietening down on OraNA, so why the
fuss?" Who is to agree or deny that it's quietening down on OraNA
precisely because I *did* kick up a fuss? One of life's imponderables,
perhaps.

Anyway, it's irrelevant whether I failed or not. Fact is, I felt I had
to say something to *try* to get it to stop.

>Seems like you upset quite a lot of
> people, that found your site quite useful, by shutting it down.
> I'm one of them - I just needed some information, I knew was on
> your site. I was unpleasantly surprised.

Mmmm. Pretty much sums up my reaction to what happened on OraNA. But
as you say, you can always just get on with your life and go read the
information on some other site. No big deal, as I think you put it.
(And yes, I'm being ironic there).

If the community, of which you are a part, had been rather more vocal
in condemning the chain letter than in passing ill-informed judgment
on my response to the chain letter, I doubt very much whether I would
have felt the need to remove my material from that community.

As I said to you twice now: those who sit silent as vandalism is
wrought on their amenities will find they have no amenities left. And
yes, it doesn't surprise me that "quite a lot of people" are "upset"
to discover that truth, but there you are. What did they expect?

> >> So you can "use" orana. What I get is a "I got mail" server/service?!?
>
> > Look, if you don't know what OraNA is, what a blog aggregator is, what
> > the concept of freely-offered community service is, you're really not
> > in any position to comment on my behaviour, are you?
>
> I do not need to know the inner workings of the latest toy to know
> a spoiled child reacting when not getting it. And I do know how
> to recognize a spoiled child, which qualifies me to comment on
> your behavior.

There's nothing "spoilt child" about this at all. Surprise that
intelligent IT people would participate in a chain letter, yes.
Annoyance at the effect of the chain letter, yes. Unhappiness at the
response to innocuous blog posts pointing out the likely consequence
of the chain letter, of course. And then the reflection that a
community that thinks this sort of stuff is all just harmless fun is
not a community I want to be part of.

I've explained it coolly, calmly and with some detail so that you know
the *facts* underpinning my response to the chain letter, but I'm not
looking for your approval.

Just so you know, re-delegating names servers, removing content,
implementing password protection... these are not actions which are,
or can be, done impetuously or in a fit of spoiled rage. They require
deliberation and calm assessment.

> > Define "emotionally involved". I have been inconvenienced. I have had
> > functionality I used and relied on withdrawn from me.
>
> > Yes, that annoys me. Yes, I am disappointed by that.
>
> Reread your own words, asif they were mine, complaining about the fact
> you brought dizwell down.

I know. It's terrible isn't it? Just switch to another site, though,
and "get over it". Isn't that your advice in these circumstances?

> > Fine. I won't explain myself any more, but please stop, by way of
> > return, making pronouncements about my "behaviour" that you
> > professedly don't understand.
>
> The original "I'm baffled with you behavior" still stands, and
> you still fail to make clear why you overreact the way you do.

You start from a premise ("it is overreaction") that I do not share
and expect me to convince you otherwise. I have explained why I
*reacted*. You are at liberty to regard it as an *over*reaction, of
course. I can only continue to point out that from where I'm sitting,
it's a perfectly rational, measured and commensurate response.

> You are of course in no way obliged to do so, but I'm not the
> only one (I did not start the thread), that wonders.

Which is fine. I can understand people wondering: it's the passing
judgement without a knowledge of the relevant facts I find
bewildering. Nevertheless, I have provided the facts and analogies and
comparisons that make sense to me and it's entirely your choice as to
whether you dismiss them as spoilt child irrational behaviour or not.

> > That you don't understand the technology is evident, Frank. Try not to
> > dig too deep a hole.
>
> Now, who's belittling?

Well, sorry you feel that way, but your comments about blog
aggregators clearly indicate you don't use them and you don't
understand them. If you did, you wouldn't say things like "just switch
to another one" because you would know that what affects one affects
them all, by their very nature. Sorry, but them's the facts. What I
was trying to say is, don't try and build too much of a case of such
very shaky foundations, If you don't understand what happened to OraNA
and why it's significant, that's fine: nothing wrong in not using a
service you have no use for. But it's probably not such a good idea to
make pronouncements about someone's behaviour when you don't (appear
to) know much about the actual reality that has given rise to that
behaviour.

diz...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 5:40:04 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 15, 10:24 pm, breakableoracle <breakableora...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> Howard
>
> I agree with you. I happened to tryhttp://www.ora-click.com/for the

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for that. Yes, I had a quick look at OraNA and it's first page
was entirely clear of the posts. Excellent news, and let's hope it
stays that way.

joel garry

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 7:16:52 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 15, 2:37 pm, dizw...@gmail.com wrote:


> Well, sorry you feel that way, but your comments about blog
> aggregators clearly indicate you don't use them and you don't
> understand them. If you did, you wouldn't say things like "just switch
> to another one" because you would know that what affects one affects
> them all, by their very nature. Sorry, but them's the facts. What I
> was trying to say is, don't try and build too much of a case of such
> very shaky foundations, If you don't understand what happened to OraNA
> and why it's significant, that's fine: nothing wrong in not using a
> service you have no use for. But it's probably not such a good idea to
> make pronouncements about someone's behaviour when you don't (appear
> to) know much about the actual reality that has given rise to that
> behaviour.

But it doesn't affect them all the same. Otherwise, why would
oraclick still show the tags and orana not? Neither has been taken
offline - would you say oraclick was entirely up and running to begin
with? I wouldn't. I think oraclick just demonstrates what happens
with a rating system that lacks a critical mass. But I did see a tag
that I wouldn't have otherwise, for good or bad.

I think we may all know more than we wanted to about the rise of this
behavior.

Maybe we should all blame Tom's beard :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061015/news_1m15garcia.html

hpuxrac

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 8:01:51 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 15, 7:16 pm, joel garry <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2:37 pm, dizw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Well, sorry you feel that way, but your comments about blog
> > aggregators clearly indicate you don't use them and you don't
> > understand them. If you did, you wouldn't say things like "just switch
> > to another one" because you would know that what affects one affects
> > them all, by their very nature. Sorry, but them's the facts. What I
> > was trying to say is, don't try and build too much of a case of such
> > very shaky foundations, If you don't understand what happened to OraNA
> > and why it's significant, that's fine: nothing wrong in not using a
> > service you have no use for. But it's probably not such a good idea to
> > make pronouncements about someone's behaviour when you don't (appear
> > to) know much about the actual reality that has given rise to that
> > behaviour.

I am another one that doesn't use news readers or blog aggregators
apparently. Suits me just fine thanks. So to me anyhow it's not
significant.

What does interfere with usage of oracle internet resources is things
that go offline and online. In this specific case I was thinking
about checking out ( dora I think it was ... linux kernel and user
setup tool I believe ).

If this stuff is going to be offline long term then maybe it could get
re-hosted somewhere else?

>
> But it doesn't affect them all the same.  Otherwise, why would
> oraclick still show the tags and orana not?  Neither has been taken
> offline - would you say oraclick was entirely up and running to begin
> with?  I wouldn't.  I think oraclick just demonstrates what happens
> with a rating system that lacks a critical mass.  But I did see a tag
> that I wouldn't have otherwise, for good or bad.
>
> I think we may all know more than we wanted to about the rise of this
> behavior.

Not me I guess. Never heard of oraclick ... or orana either
apparently. C'est la vie.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 8:42:44 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 16, 11:16 am, joel garry <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2:37 pm, dizw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Well, sorry you feel that way, but your comments about blog
> > aggregators clearly indicate you don't use them and you don't
> > understand them. If you did, you wouldn't say things like "just switch
> > to another one" because you would know that what affects one affects
> > them all, by their very nature. Sorry, but them's the facts. What I
> > was trying to say is, don't try and build too much of a case of such
> > very shaky foundations, If you don't understand what happened to OraNA
> > and why it's significant, that's fine: nothing wrong in not using a
> > service you have no use for. But it's probably not such a good idea to
> > make pronouncements about someone's behaviour when you don't (appear
> > to) know much about the actual reality that has given rise to that
> > behaviour.
>
> But it doesn't affect them all the same.

No, it doesn't affect them all the same, which is why I was quite
careful not to say that it did. What blogs an aggregator chooses to
aggregate is down to his or her own choice plus whatever
representations he or she receives from blog owners wanting to be
aggregated.

The fact remains, all aggregators of Oracle-related blogs would have
been affected.

>Otherwise, why would
> oraclick still show the tags and orana not? Neither has been taken
> offline - would you say oraclick was entirely up and running to begin
> with? I wouldn't. I think oraclick just demonstrates what happens
> with a rating system that lacks a critical mass. But I did see a tag
> that I wouldn't have otherwise, for good or bad.

Oraclick is quite new, I think, and I've never actually used it.
(Which isn't the same thing as not caring about it). It's not a blog
aggregator as such: blog aggregators merely tap into a blog's RSS feed
and suck up whatever happens to flow past and combines the streams
from all blogs into one super-stream that flows on chronologically.
Oraclick seems to be a 'vote my article' site: readers click on an
icon displayed on a blog whenever they read anything they think is of
particular note. When lots of readers vote similarly, that article
gets promoted on Oraclick. If people keep voting for it, it stays
promoted to the top of Oraclick's pages. That's as I understand it
from a quick first-time visit just now, anyway.

All of which means that if Oraclick was displaying chain letter blog
posts, it means people are even thicker than I gave them credit for:
not only do blog owners engage in chain letter distribution, but
readers actually like the stuff and therefore vote for it as news-
worthy!

One born every minute, I guess. And another reason for recognising
that I have even less in common with this "community" than I could
have imaginedm and disassociating myself from it accordingly.

Anyway: that's a side issue. I'm very specifically talking about the
damage done to blog aggregators, a category in which I wouldn't
include Oraclick, which provide a useful centralisation service when
there are hundreds of possible blogs to be visited and read in turn. A
service which, however, is then vulnerable to being swamped when blog
owners pour pollution into their own private contributory streams.

> I think we may all know more than we wanted to about the rise of this
> behavior.
>

> Maybe we should all blame Tom's beard :-)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_...
>
> jg
> --
> @home.com is bogus.http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061015/news_1m15garcia.html

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 9:12:02 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 16, 12:01 pm, hpuxrac <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 7:16 pm, joel garry <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15, 2:37 pm, dizw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Well, sorry you feel that way, but your comments about blog
> > > aggregators clearly indicate you don't use them and you don't
> > > understand them. If you did, you wouldn't say things like "just switch
> > > to another one" because you would know that what affects one affects
> > > them all, by their very nature. Sorry, but them's the facts. What I
> > > was trying to say is, don't try and build too much of a case of such
> > > very shaky foundations, If you don't understand what happened to OraNA
> > > and why it's significant, that's fine: nothing wrong in not using a
> > > service you have no use for. But it's probably not such a good idea to
> > > make pronouncements about someone's behaviour when you don't (appear
> > > to) know much about the actual reality that has given rise to that
> > > behaviour.
>
> I am another one that doesn't use news readers or blog aggregators
> apparently. Suits me just fine thanks. So to me anyhow it's not
> significant.

Right. You don't use it, therefore it's not significant. Not exactly a
deduction I would say flows logically from the premise.

> What does interfere with usage of oracle internet resources is things
> that go offline and online.

Again, if you don't use OraNA, that's fine, and no-one's compelling
you to do so. But unless you have seen practically the entire site
full of me-too chain letter posts, the distinction you appear to want
to draw between a minor bit of chain letter posting and a site going
offline is meaningless. For that period of time, OraNA was,
effectively, offline to anyone that wanted to use it as a source of
information about what Oracle-related matters were being written
about. There's no difference between a site that's online and
displaying garbage and a site that is offline: both are of no use to
their regular users.

>In this specific case I was thinking
> about checking out ( dora I think it was ... linux kernel and user
> setup tool I believe ).
>
> If this stuff is going to be offline long term then maybe it could get
> re-hosted somewhere else?

If it does get hosted somewhere else, I will be pursuing the matter
under relevant copyright provisions!

You seem not to have got the point here. Large parts of the Oracle
community turn a blind eye to disruptive behaviour at best;
participate in it at worst. Why do you think I would want ANY of my
material to be of help to people in such a community?

No-one has a *right* to my material. I made it available as a
community-minded gesture, out of the goodness of my own heart as it
were, and (of course) an egotistical desire to be recognised as a
useful member of that community. But when said community displays its
nasty, selfish, unthinking and irresponsible side, I am at liberty to
re-think that gesture, just as I am at liberty to re-consider whether
I want to be recognised as a contributing member of such a community.
I have done that reconsidering, and on both grounds, the material
goes. It isn't coming back and anyone who takes unauthorised steps to
make it appear elsewhere will be pursued on the matter.

If people don't like that, they have it in their own hands to change
it. If people stop writing, "Well, I don't use it so I don't care" and
start writing, "I don't use it, but I recognise it's utility to others
who do", that would have some bearing on the subject. If people
stopped writing "I hate chain letters, but just this once..." and
started writing "I hate chain letters and I condemn attempts to start
them", that would affect the outcome, too. If people stopped saying,
"Well, it's just a bit of fun and your reaction is just that of a
spoiled child" and started saying, "I don't agree with your reaction,
but I can see that this has been damaging/disruptive, and I quite
understand your desire to help stop it", that would affect things,
too.

But since none of those things are happening, you should consider the
material gone for the duration.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 15, 2008, 9:27:59 PM1/15/08
to
On Jan 16, 12:01 pm, hpuxrac <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 7:16 pm, joel garry <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15, 2:37 pm, dizw...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > Well, sorry you feel that way, but your comments about blog
> > > aggregators clearly indicate you don't use them and you don't
> > > understand them. If you did, you wouldn't say things like "just switch
> > > to another one" because you would know that what affects one affects
> > > them all, by their very nature. Sorry, but them's the facts. What I
> > > was trying to say is, don't try and build too much of a case of such
> > > very shaky foundations, If you don't understand what happened to OraNA
> > > and why it's significant, that's fine: nothing wrong in not using a
> > > service you have no use for. But it's probably not such a good idea to
> > > make pronouncements about someone's behaviour when you don't (appear
> > > to) know much about the actual reality that has given rise to that
> > > behaviour.
>
> I am another one that doesn't use news readers or blog aggregators
> apparently. Suits me just fine thanks. So to me anyhow it's not
> significant.

My sincere apologies. I have just read this last sentence again and
realised I missed the "to me", which changes the meaning a lot. Please
ignore the first paragraph of my earlier response (well, you can
ignore all of it if you like, of course, but I suggest you ignore
*especially* the first paragraph!).

I still wish people who don't feel themselves affected could
nevertheless summon up a smidgen of concern on altruistic and
empathetic grounds, though!

dougt...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 5:23:02 AM1/16/08
to
It's a damm shame an inane game of "blog tag" started off on the
fluffy "2.0" side of the Oracle community has managed to take down the
dizwell site.

It was my favorite site for Oracle related guff the blogs, the
articles and the forum were a massive resource for all who accessed
them.

I hope a few higher ups in the Oracle community (can we call it that
in the context of this thread) can get in touch with Howard to talk to
him on the subject.

Cheers
Doug

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 5:33:11 AM1/16/08
to

The trouble is, Doug, it's not a matter for the higher ups. It's
rather more a question of how "the lower downs" (a group I happen to
believe I belong to, incidentally!) behave in the aggregate. Or
rather, behaved.

Besides, the entire blogging "game" was started by an Oracle employee
(who explicitly called it "an infectious meme", funnily enough); and
it was recently and enthusistically supported as "nourishment" for the
Oracle community by the Editor-in-Chief of the entire Oracle
Technology Network. So it would be a bit of an up-hill battle going
that route, I think!

I've no doubt you'll get someone saying, too, that it wasn't the
tagging "game" which took down dizwell, but me!

They would have a point, I suppose...

monouc...@googlemail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 9:17:42 AM1/16/08
to
I'm not familiar with newsgroup posting etiquette, as this is my first
ever post - i've only ever lurked previously - so apologies.

dizwell website no longer available

I am rather angry.

Angry at myself for having become too reliant on a resource stored on
what is a transient-medium (the web).

Angry at myself for not having forseen the consequences of lack of
access to said resource, and taken the necessary steps to compile the
useful nuggets of information into my own personal knowledgebase.

Angry at the prospect of henceforth having to cynically treat ALL
useful info obtained via web sources as fleeting, and therefore
manually, laboriously compile my own knowledgebase rather than simply
linking to an external resources (duplication of info seems such a
waste of valuable time to me).
This has been a wake-up call of-sorts, but not a welcome one.

And to a certain extent, angry at Howard Rogers.
Granted, he has given a huge amount of time and effort to the oracle
community.
He has run several websites over the years containing a wealth of
information, with lively discussion communities being built up as a
result - all websites hosted out of his own pocket.

To withdraw a resource he has created is of course his prerogative.

But to do so without warning, without providing a grace period for
users to squirrel away the info they find most valuable, strikes me as
poor form.

If you have become disenchanted with the actions of a small proportion
of a community, i can sympathise with the "to hell with you all, i
shall take no further part" attitude.
At which point i would then expect such a website to be just left as
is - no further updates. Or at least left up for a couple of months
before mothballing.

To take the action of completely withdrawing a website, and even going
to the extent of clearing google web caches to prevent any access to
articles seems drastic, almost spiteful.

I would be curious to know if any other long time dizwell site users
have been left feeling like they have had the rug pulled from under
them?

The crux of his argument seems to be that blog spamming/chaining by
the wider oracle community has rendered a site he frequents, useless.
He is thus inconvenienced (and deduces that others are likewise
inconvenienced).
I would counter that his response of withdrawing his site has also
inconvenienced people, albeit a smaller subset of the oracle
community, that which uses his site.
Various circular arguments could then be spun out, but my point here
is this - how can inconveniencing the dizwell site users resolve his
situation?
Are dizwell site users expected to mobilise our forces and extinguish
all blog spammers with extreme prejudice?
How exactly can we apply pressure to fix things?
Should we be expected to try and fix things?

He strikes me as a very principled man, albeit rather mercurial of
temperament (his sites have been open and closed, forums opened and
closed based on previous issues/annoyances with various factors).
He does not seem the type who would simply pull a site, in the hope
that he then receives a deluge of mails to reopen it, thus making him
feel wanted.

He was good enough to respond to my e-mailed questions regarding the
reasons for his course of action, albeit in a rather brusque tone.
In my last email i mentioned that i would not be emailing him further
to try and get him to change his mind - which i will adhere to.
But i feel the need to vent, and given the root cause of his ire it
was tempting to use a blog to do so.
But i suppose posting to this newsgroup thread will suffice.

I remain angry and saddened by the course of events.

csn

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 11:42:25 AM1/16/08
to
I wonder if the blogging is going to continue...?

If not, I shall miss the wallabies.

joel garry

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 1:16:00 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 16, 6:17 am, monouchi1...@googlemail.com wrote:
> I'm not familiar with newsgroup posting etiquette, as this is my first
> ever post - i've only ever lurked previously - so apologies.
>

Welcome! In case you missed some finer points while lurking, here's a
primer for the group: http://www.dbaoracle.net/readme-cdos.htm

Don't be scared off by some of the, er, free speech here. No
apologies necessary for your clear and sensitive post.

>
> To take the action of completely withdrawing a website, and even going
> to the extent of clearing google web caches to prevent any access to
> articles seems drastic, almost spiteful.
>

I would disagree with the "almost."

Wow, a web self-erasure! Good one, Howard. Mr. Orwell would be proud
you pled guilty to your crimes.
"Your name was removed from the registers, every record of your
existence was denied and then forgotten"

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier then the sword obviously never
encountered automatic weapons." - General MacArthur

hpuxrac

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 1:50:24 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 15, 9:27 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

> > I am another one that doesn't use news readers or blog aggregators
> > apparently.  Suits me just fine thanks.  So to me anyhow it's not
> > significant.
>
> My sincere apologies. I have just read this last sentence again and
> realised I missed the "to me", which changes the meaning a lot. Please
> ignore the first paragraph of my earlier response (well, you can
> ignore all of it if you like, of course, but I suggest you ignore
> *especially* the first paragraph!).

This isn't like you to not blindly flame me and then to actually read
my response carefully and then apologize ... wow!

> I still wish people who don't feel themselves affected could
> nevertheless summon up a smidgen of concern on altruistic and

> empathetic grounds, though!-

If you go back to my first posting in this thread ( I am the OP in
this case ) ... I asked for someone to give me some background on what
happened and why you took your websites offline as a result.

I still don't have much of a clue about who, what and why.

Was there some kind of financial consequence to you ( since you
apparently pay for your websites I guess I thought pythian was hosting
for free ) because of excess traffic generated to your domains?

If you don't care to explain that's fine but don't guess that everyone
is out to get you or isn't potentially sympathetic.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 3:14:45 PM1/16/08
to

Funnily enough, not one of the people who participated in flooding
OraNA provided warning of what they were about to do, giving me a
grace period in which to brace myself for the coming storm. Of course,
when the flood hits, none of the blog owners whose material got swept
out of the front couple of pages of OraNA were given a grace period in
which to squirrel away their content-rich posts for later re-
submission, either.

In short, what you describe so eloquently **happened to me** (and lots
of others).

Now, when I point this out, I am told I am over-reacting, behaving
like a spoilt child, dictating what others may post on their own blogs
and all the rest. When you describe **exactly** the same sense of
deprivation from a useful technical resource, I'm supposed to
understand and make sympathetic noises.

The double standard involved here would be funny if it wasn't so
annoying.

> If you have become disenchanted with the actions of a small proportion
> of a community,

How small? I don't hear the chorus of "we agree". I have maybe a
couple dozen emails saying "we privately agree", but that's about it.
Looks to me like the majority at least passively accept whatever
happens (which is the way of majorities, I suppose).

> i can sympathise with the "to hell with you all, i
> shall take no further part" attitude.
> At which point i would then expect such a website to be just left as
> is - no further updates. Or at least left up for a couple of months
> before mothballing.

Your expectations have no bearing on the matter, just as my
expectations of OraNA functionality had no bearing on the matter. It's
a pretty exact parallel, actually.

> To take the action of completely withdrawing a website, and even going
> to the extent of clearing google web caches to prevent any access to
> articles seems drastic, almost spiteful.

Indeed. I can well imagine it looks that way to you. Try applying some
of Frank's homely advice from this very thread: you didn't pay for
Dizwell. Therefore you have no right to expect any particular level of
service or availability. Dizwell not available? Go visit some other
website and -as he so eloquently put it- get on with life.

Right, irony out of the way, I will say that the *principle* here is,
"I no longer agree to participate in or support a community of vandals
and selfish, unthinking pranksters". Strict adherence to that
principle requires me to clear Google caches. It's not spite, but
logic, therefore.

> I would be curious to know if any other long time dizwell site users
> have been left feeling like they have had the rug pulled from under
> them?

You've had material you never paid for removed by its author from
general circulation. That's all. I get no pleasure from having done
so, but the principle of the matter requires me to have done so.
Instead of complaining about the effect, complain about the cause.

> The crux of his argument seems to be that blog spamming/chaining by
> the wider oracle community has rendered a site he frequents, useless.
> He is thus inconvenienced (and deduces that others are likewise
> inconvenienced).
> I would counter that his response of withdrawing his site has also
> inconvenienced people, albeit a smaller subset of the oracle
> community, that which uses his site.
> Various circular arguments could then be spun out, but my point here
> is this - how can inconveniencing the dizwell site users resolve his
> situation?

It's not designed to *resolve* the situation. It's a **response** to a
situation. A situation that has happened. It is impossible to take
back the disruption to OraNA. It is impossible to take back the
personal abuse I received for daring to voice the thought that sending
a chain letter is irresponsible. It is impossible to take back the
fact that large swathes of the Oracle blogging community continue to
post "It was just a bit of fun".

I'm not seeking to change history or people's opinions. I'm responding
to what has happened.

> Are dizwell site users expected to mobilise our forces and extinguish
> all blog spammers with extreme prejudice?

I've posted in this thread what would have made a difference.

> How exactly can we apply pressure to fix things?
> Should we be expected to try and fix things?

Strangely enough, the idea of "community" depends very heavily on the
first syllable of that word: "co". You do indeed have a co- and equal-
responsibility to condemn that which damages and inconveniences
others.

> He strikes me as a very principled man, albeit rather mercurial of
> temperament (his sites have been open and closed, forums opened and
> closed based on previous issues/annoyances with various factors).

No, they have not. They have been moved because of hosting issues,
performance issues and management issues related to the software used
to act as a content management system. Material has never been moved
or made unavailable as a consequence of "annoyance with various
factors". Ever. Please stick to the facts.

When you do so, you will find that making glib judgements about
someone you don't know and their allegedly 'mercurial temperament' are
made of nothing firmer than wild supposition.

> He does not seem the type who would simply pull a site, in the hope
> that he then receives a deluge of mails to reopen it, thus making him
> feel wanted.

That bit you got right. The damage has been done, the attitudes have
been expressed, the indifference of the majority has been noted. No
amount of emails would get me to change my mind.

> He was good enough to respond to my e-mailed questions regarding the
> reasons for his course of action, albeit in a rather brusque tone.

What a sensitive little flower you are! You probably don't realise
that I've replied to (goes to check) 133 emails in the past two days
asking the same question. The responses necessarily had to be brief,
but brusque they were not.

> In my last email i mentioned that i would not be emailing him further
> to try and get him to change his mind - which i will adhere to.
> But i feel the need to vent, and given the root cause of his ire it
> was tempting to use a blog to do so.
> But i suppose posting to this newsgroup thread will suffice.
>
> I remain angry and saddened by the course of events.

Ditto. (Well, not the angry bit).

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 3:33:36 PM1/16/08
to

Come on. I've explained very clearly the actions of others which
caused this. I'm not naming specific names (apart from Jake who
started it all and Tim Hall who made a special point of telling people
to tag away because "it's fun"), for obvious reasons: there are too
many of them.

I've explained why I found those actions unacceptable. I've explained
why my decision to remove the site arises directly from me finding
those actions unnaceptable. I have also explained the financial
implications very, very clearly.

If you don't care to read any of that, that's fine. If you don't agree
with my reasoning, that's fine. But please don't try to suggest I've
not presented all the facts and thought processes at all!

Meanwhile, what I don't think people really understand is that I don't
**care** if people are sympathetic or not or out to get me or not. I
withdraw from the community and what the community then thinks about
me is a matter of complete indifference.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 3:34:17 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 17, 3:42 am, csn <csn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if the blogging is going to continue...?
>
> If not, I shall miss the wallabies.

No, it isn't.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 3:46:40 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 17, 5:16 am, joel garry <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
> On Jan 16, 6:17 am, monouchi1...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > I'm not familiar with newsgroup posting etiquette, as this is my first
> > ever post - i've only ever lurked previously - so apologies.
>
> Welcome! In case you missed some finer points while lurking, here's a
> primer for the group:http://www.dbaoracle.net/readme-cdos.htm
>
> Don't be scared off by some of the, er, free speech here. No
> apologies necessary for your clear and sensitive post.
>
>
>
> > To take the action of completely withdrawing a website, and even going
> > to the extent of clearing google web caches to prevent any access to
> > articles seems drastic, almost spiteful.
>
> I would disagree with the "almost."

What on Earth would be the point of my removing my material by way of
sending a message to the Oracle community, only to leave places like
the Wayback Machine and the Google cache as places where you could
read it anyway?!

I find the assumption that you and others have a right to this
material, and that I am therefore being spiteful by removing it,
utterly bizarre.

What I find completely typical and expected, however, is that in your
annoyance or upset at having this material removed you (and clearly
some others) descend immediately to the depths of making **personal**
judgements about me.

It is reasonable for you to say you are annoyed the material has gone.
It is reasonable to say you are (or one is) upset at it going. It is
not, I think, reasonable to conclude something about **my** personal
motivations from **your** (one's) upset or annoyance. But everyone has
done it consistently on this issue, so I guess it's to be expected.

Since you feel it's OK to make judgements about me personally on the
basis of no actual fact whatsoever, I feel equally justified in
offering you some advice I profoundly disagree with, but has a certain
pithy ring to it: you didn't pay for it, you don't have any rights to
it, get over it and go somewhere else (like the official Oracle
documentation, for example).

> Wow, a web self-erasure! Good one, Howard. Mr. Orwell would be proud
> you pled guilty to your crimes.
> "Your name was removed from the registers, every record of your
> existence was denied and then forgotten"

We can certainly hope so. After all, the sooner everyone forgets, the
less email I'll have to reply to.

joel garry

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 5:44:36 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 16, 12:14 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Funnily enough, not one of the people who participated in flooding
> OraNA provided warning of what they were about to do, giving me a
> grace period in which to brace myself for the coming storm. Of course,
> when the flood hits, none of the blog owners whose material got swept
> out of the front couple of pages of OraNA were given a grace period in
> which to squirrel away their content-rich posts for later re-
> submission, either.
>
> In short, what you describe so eloquently **happened to me** (and lots
> of others).
>
> Now, when I point this out, I am told I am over-reacting, behaving
> like a spoilt child, dictating what others may post on their own blogs
> and all the rest. When you describe **exactly** the same sense of
> deprivation from a useful technical resource, I'm supposed to
> understand and make sympathetic noises.
>
> The double standard involved here would be funny if it wasn't so
> annoying.
>
> > If you have become disenchanted with the actions of a small proportion
> > of a community,
>
> How small? I don't hear the chorus of "we agree". I have maybe a
> couple dozen emails saying "we privately agree", but that's about it.
> Looks to me like the majority at least passively accept whatever
> happens (which is the way of majorities, I suppose).

It goes deeper than that. You talk of community, and the actions of
those within. Well, sometimes groupthink works, and sometimes it
doesn't. See Abilene paradox, Pluralistic Ignorance, Communal
reinforcement, etc. on wikipedia or your favorite real references.
Your apparent intent to help solve the meme virus and it's future
variants may have been laudable, and you could have done things to
engender sympathy, but the shutdown is seen by many as a tweener
petulant frenzy, stamping your feet and crying and taking your ball
home.

>
> > i can sympathise with the "to hell with you all, i
> > shall take no further part" attitude.
> > At which point i would then expect such a website to be just left as
> > is - no further updates. Or at least left up for a couple of months
> > before mothballing.
>
> Your expectations have no bearing on the matter, just as my
> expectations of OraNA functionality had no bearing on the matter. It's
> a pretty exact parallel, actually.
>
> > To take the action of completely withdrawing a website, and even going
> > to the extent of clearing google web caches to prevent any access to
> > articles seems drastic, almost spiteful.
>
> Indeed. I can well imagine it looks that way to you. Try applying some
> of Frank's homely advice from this very thread: you didn't pay for
> Dizwell. Therefore you have no right to expect any particular level of
> service or availability. Dizwell not available? Go visit some other
> website and -as he so eloquently put it- get on with life.
>
> Right, irony out of the way, I will say that the *principle* here is,
> "I no longer agree to participate in or support a community of vandals
> and selfish, unthinking pranksters". Strict adherence to that
> principle requires me to clear Google caches. It's not spite, but
> logic, therefore.

Biting back my sudden urge to give a bunch of Final Solution links,
I'll just say check out the Lewis Caroll reference:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/29/071029fa_fact_martin

>
> > I would be curious to know if any other long time dizwell site users
> > have been left feeling like they have had the rug pulled from under
> > them?
>
> You've had material you never paid for removed by its author from
> general circulation.  That's all. I get no pleasure from having done
> so, but the principle of the matter requires me to have done so.
> Instead of complaining about the effect, complain about the cause.

I think you do have self-defined positive reinforcement. Seeing
Britney running around naked in a store might be more entertaining,
though.

>
> > The crux of his argument seems to be that blog spamming/chaining by
> > the wider oracle community has rendered a site he frequents, useless.
> > He is thus inconvenienced (and deduces that others are likewise
> > inconvenienced).
> > I would counter that his response of withdrawing his site has also
> > inconvenienced people, albeit a smaller subset of the oracle
> > community, that which uses his site.
> > Various circular arguments could then be spun out, but my point here
> > is this - how can inconveniencing the dizwell site users resolve his
> > situation?
>
> It's not designed to *resolve* the situation. It's a **response** to a
> situation. A situation that has happened. It is impossible to take
> back the disruption to OraNA. It is impossible to take back the
> personal abuse I received for daring to voice the thought that sending
> a chain letter is irresponsible. It is impossible to take back the
> fact that large swathes of the Oracle blogging community continue to
> post "It was just a bit of fun".

The difference is, orana has moved on. As expected by people when you
complained. I've seen water and electric utilities disrupted longer
than orana.

You ought to know by now any statement you make can engender abuse,
one chiding people about their behavior is bound to. Chiding a whole
group is bound to get a lot.

>
> I'm not seeking to change history or people's opinions. I'm responding
> to what has happened.
>
> > Are dizwell site users expected to mobilise our forces and extinguish
> > all blog spammers with extreme prejudice?
>
> I've posted in this thread what would have made a difference.
>
> > How exactly can we apply pressure to fix things?
> > Should we be expected to try and fix things?
>
> Strangely enough, the idea of "community" depends very heavily on the
> first syllable of that word: "co". You do indeed have a co- and equal-
> responsibility to condemn that which damages and inconveniences
> others.

For what value of damages and inconveniences? Your perception is
obviously different than other's. It couldn't be otherwise. Balance
between the perceptions is unattainable. Do more people condemn what
you have done than condone it? Silence may be support, acquiescence,
neutral or shunning. Most people in most communities believe some are
more equal than others.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

"I Want to Take You Higher"
It's official: Ike Turner died of a cocaine overdose. Approximately
10 miles from my house.

hpuxrac

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 6:36:30 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 16, 3:33 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

> > If you don't care to explain that's fine but don't guess that everyone
> > is out to get you or isn't potentially sympathetic.
>
> Come on. I've explained very clearly the actions of others which
> caused this. I'm not naming specific names (apart from Jake who
> started it all and Tim Hall who made a special point of telling people
> to tag away because "it's fun"), for obvious reasons: there are too
> many of them.

I seem to recall some past bad blood between you and Tim Hall. No I
don't understand the beginning or middle just that you have decided to
take your website offline.

It's not exactly the first or second or third time ( fourth maybe who
knows ? ) that all the content was removed from a website that you
operated. Usually the reason in the past was new software.

There seems to be a different reason this time based on what you are
saying.

>
> I've explained why I found those actions unacceptable. I've explained
> why my decision to remove the site arises directly from me finding
> those actions unnaceptable. I have also explained the financial
> implications very, very clearly.

???

>
> If you don't care to read any of that, that's fine. If you don't agree
> with my reasoning, that's fine. But please don't try to suggest I've
> not presented all the facts and thought processes at all!

Where exactly is one supposed to find your explanation? Is there a
url?

>
> Meanwhile, what I don't think people really understand is that I don't
> **care** if people are sympathetic or not or out to get me or not. I
> withdraw from the community and what the community then thinks about
> me is a matter of complete indifference.

I think the idea of an "oracle community" is very much oversold. Just
lots of people trying to stay employed basically. Look at the self
promotion that many of the cdos posters engage in.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 6:55:21 PM1/16/08
to
> > How small? I don't hear the chorus of "we agree". I have maybe a
> > couple dozen emails saying "we privately agree", but that's about it.
> > Looks to me like the majority at least passively accept whatever
> > happens (which is the way of majorities, I suppose).
>
> It goes deeper than that. You talk of community, and the actions of
> those within. Well, sometimes groupthink works, and sometimes it
> doesn't. See Abilene paradox, Pluralistic Ignorance, Communal
> reinforcement, etc. on wikipedia or your favorite real references.
> Your apparent intent to help solve the meme virus and it's future
> variants may have been laudable, and you could have done things to
> engender sympathy, but the shutdown is seen by many as a tweener
> petulant frenzy, stamping your feet and crying and taking your ball
> home.

I have taken the trouble to explain my thought processes here so that
people might work out for themselves how grotesque a caricature that
is and how the emotions it implies aren't any of the things I'm
feeling, or have felt, in the slightest.

I can't be held responsible if people don't want to read it, however.
Or if, having read it, they choose not to believe it.

Ultimately, I don't particularly care. I'm not after their (your)
approbation. And what thoughts about me parts of this community have
or don't have are now irrelevant. That's what leaving a community
*means*, after all.

[...]

> > You've had material you never paid for removed by its author from
> > general circulation. That's all. I get no pleasure from having done
> > so, but the principle of the matter requires me to have done so.
> > Instead of complaining about the effect, complain about the cause.
>
> I think you do have self-defined positive reinforcement.

I think you do too much speculating about what third parties you
haven't a clue about might or might not be thinking!

> > It's not designed to *resolve* the situation. It's a **response** to a
> > situation. A situation that has happened. It is impossible to take
> > back the disruption to OraNA. It is impossible to take back the
> > personal abuse I received for daring to voice the thought that sending
> > a chain letter is irresponsible. It is impossible to take back the
> > fact that large swathes of the Oracle blogging community continue to
> > post "It was just a bit of fun".
>
> The difference is, orana has moved on.

Yes, that is what the past tense of the verb "to happen" usually
means. The word I used was "happened".

> As expected by people when you
> complained.

Well, as I said before, perhaps it's stopped *because* I complained.
Who knows? The originator of "the game" certainly wanted it to expand
and to keep going, preferably out of the Oracle blog community and out
into the wider world. He wouldn't have called it an 'infectious meme'
otherwise. Am I supposed not have complained at what was being
intended or proposed, and only to have kicked up a fuss if it had gone
truly exponential? Sorry: it doesn't work that way. I merely pointed
out the numbers involved. It wasn't even a complain, so much as an
alert. The rest is history.

>I've seen water and electric utilities disrupted longer
> than orana.

So that's OK then. Actually, from where I sit, not.

You again assume that the end of the disruption would have happened
this quickly anyway, whatever I had done. Neither of us can know
whether that's the case or not. But in any case, to deliberately, and
with cold calculation, engineer a disruption of *any* length is not
the sort of behaviour a responsible community should condone -or
dismiss.

Saying 'it was only a short disruption' is a bit like dismissing
Hurricane Katrina as 'a bit of trouble' because it wasn't nearly as
bad as the Boxing Day Tsunami!

> You ought to know by now any statement you make can engender abuse,
> one chiding people about their behavior is bound to. Chiding a whole
> group is bound to get a lot.

I chided no-one and nothing. **Please** make an effort to read the
facts as presented in this thread! I wrote to 4 people (maybe 5, I
can't remember now). I then penned a blog piece about what happens at
8^4, and asked people to please feel free to share their personal
secrets but not encourage others to do so, at least not in an
exponential fashion. That's not a "chide". It's not even a
"complaint". But the abuse started anyway.

Regardless, you miss the point: this is a community that works in an
IT field yet starts sending out chain letters at the drop of a hat and
finds it fun to do so. This is a community that says, 'Well, it
doesn't matter, because not a lot of harm was done'. That says, 'I
don't use it, so I don't care'.

This community therefore has its priorities and sense of ethics
screwed up, as far as I am concerned.

> > Strangely enough, the idea of "community" depends very heavily on the
> > first syllable of that word: "co". You do indeed have a co- and equal-
> > responsibility to condemn that which damages and inconveniences
> > others.
>
> For what value of damages and inconveniences? Your perception is
> obviously different than other's.

No, it's not, actually. You keep trotting that line out as if I'm the
only one to have complained! Read this thread. Read the posts on
Eddie's blog about the topic. Take cognisance of the fact that two of
the biggest names in the Oracle Blogging community refused to take
part at all and perhaps the biggest security expert out there decided
not to participate. If my perception was so strange and peculiar as to
be unique, none of that would be the case.

> It couldn't be otherwise. Balance
> between the perceptions is unattainable. Do more people condemn what
> you have done than condone it?

I don't know. Why don't you take a poll?

Given that you can't actually do that and the respective numbers must
forever remain imponderable as a result, the question becomes, for me,
a rather more intellectual or moralistic one. Do you have the right to
deprive me of the effective use of a third party site, for however
short a time? Do I have the right to remove material I wrote from my
own site? The answer to the former, I would suggest is, 'no'. But to
the latter, I would equally suggest, the answer is undoubtedly,
'yes'.

I don't think a numbers game, whichever way it would play out,
captures the essence of the problem.

>Silence may be support, acquiescence,
> neutral or shunning.

Qui tacit consentit.

But regardless, those who exercised silence when OraNA and other blogs
were being flooded with chain letters should exercise the same
eloquent silence when it comes to me removing my material from the
community.

>Most people in most communities believe some are
> more equal than others.

In terms of having a responsibility not to keep silent when they see
abuse being perpetrated, they aren't. Of course, perhaps they didn't
see it as abuse, in which case, they have no reason, still less a
right, to complain about what those who *did* see it as abuse choose
to do about it.

Anyway, we're off to the land of philosophical legerdemain, which
might be frightfully interesting, but wasn't the reason I contributed
to this thread. I've explained my reasons. Take 'em or leave 'em,
basically. Whichever, I have nothing more to say on the matter.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 7:52:23 PM1/16/08
to
On Jan 17, 10:36 am, hpuxrac <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jan 16, 3:33 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> snip
>
> > > If you don't care to explain that's fine but don't guess that everyone
> > > is out to get you or isn't potentially sympathetic.
>
> > Come on. I've explained very clearly the actions of others which
> > caused this. I'm not naming specific names (apart from Jake who
> > started it all and Tim Hall who made a special point of telling people
> > to tag away because "it's fun"), for obvious reasons: there are too
> > many of them.
>
> I seem to recall some past bad blood between you and Tim Hall. No I
> don't understand the beginning or middle just that you have decided to
> take your website offline.

I don't recall past blood between Tim Hall and myself. I find his
choice of North Harlem-ese as his dialect of choice most peculiar, and
he can't write very well. And yes, he asked me to review one of his
books, and when I did so I happened to express the sentiment that he'd
done a bad redaction job of the official Oracle documentation. But he
seemed to take that in good part, it was over a year ago, and whether
I find someone's decision to liberally sprinkle their observations of
the latest kung fu movie with non-adjectives such as 'cool' and
'awesome' weird or not doesn't mean there's "bad blood".

Tim Hall actually tagged me in the "game", and I doubt he would have
done that if he and I were at each others' throats. He was also one of
the 4 (or 5) I contacted to ask if they wouldn't mind contacting their
tags asking them not to propogate further. I wouldn't have done that
if I'd judged ahead of time that he was a lost cause or a hopeless
case.

> It's not exactly the first or second or third time ( fourth maybe who
> knows ? ) that all the content was removed from a website that you
> operated. Usually the reason in the past was new software.

The site has been removed in the past because as an employee of Oracle
Corporation they claimed copyright on everything I wrote. Once I left,
a new site was created, using static HTML pages. That proved
unmanageable, so I moved to Joomla. That proved to require so many
security patches that it was a management nightmare. So I moved to
Drupal. That proved to be so draining of computer resources that I was
kicked off by my host. I moved the site to three other hosts of
varying degrees of incompetence before Pythian valiantly stepped up to
the mark and offered me free hosting with a machine all to myself so I
could consume as many computer resources as I liked. Unfortunately,
the network speed from Pythian was extremely slow, and I decided at
New Year to move to a paid-for host with very good network
connectivity.

And that's the complete history of Dizwell. Some of it is my
incompetence. Some of it is to do with performance. Some of it is to
do with ease of management (upgrades, patches etc). Not one move or
outage has ever been occasioned by "annoyance".

> There seems to be a different reason this time based on what you are
> saying.

Well, yes, I rather thought that was the point of having posted
several thousand words to this thread.

> > I've explained why I found those actions unacceptable. I've explained
> > why my decision to remove the site arises directly from me finding
> > those actions unnaceptable. I have also explained the financial
> > implications very, very clearly.
>
> ???
>
>
>
> > If you don't care to read any of that, that's fine. If you don't agree
> > with my reasoning, that's fine. But please don't try to suggest I've
> > not presented all the facts and thought processes at all!
>
> Where exactly is one supposed to find your explanation? Is there a
> url?

I can't quite work out whether you're just trying to wind me up or
not. I'll generously assume you're not for the moment, and therefore
answer you: look around you. This thread is that explanation. Detailed
and as factual as I know how to make it.

But in case you missed it the first time:

Chain letters were sent; disruption was caused; I asked some people to
consider discouraging others from participating; I posted a blog piece
trying to discourage people from participating; I was abused for my
presumption; the disruption continued; sections of the Oracle
'community' regard the disruption caused as trivial or nothing to get
concerned about. I do not want to be part of a community that thinks
chain letters are "fun", disruption caused to a web site doesn't count
if you don't happen to visit it, vandalism is in the eye of the
beholder and 'if you don't like it, get over it'. Not wanting to be
part of a community means I withdraw my work from that community.

You posted originally, "Any of the background info related to what is


going on and why people might be taking websites and content offline
would be appreciated."

I've given you the background. The "why" is (short version) 'because
the behaviour of people in the community has been appalling'.
Hopefully, you are now appreciative.

> > Meanwhile, what I don't think people really understand is that I don't
> > **care** if people are sympathetic or not or out to get me or not. I
> > withdraw from the community and what the community then thinks about
> > me is a matter of complete indifference.
>
> I think the idea of an "oracle community" is very much oversold. Just
> lots of people trying to stay employed basically. Look at the self
> promotion that many of the cdos posters engage in.

I am inclined to agree with you, particularly since what has happened.
I would have hoped for 'commonality of interests' also equating to
'rough commonality of values', and if that had been the case, there
would be something approaching a "community". But I do now realise
that does not seem to be the case.

But again, at this point we're getting all philosophical and that's
not something I want to do, particularly.

Unless there is anything else to ask, I have nothing to add to this
thread. Perhaps you'd better email me if you want further
enlightenment. I wouldn't want to be accused of participating in the
community by posting here too much, after all!

fuchshp

unread,
Jan 17, 2008, 12:37:34 AM1/17/08
to
Howard, hpuxrac et al, could you please stop discussing this matter on
this newsgroup? It's rather off topic. And it's almost as annoying as
the blogtagging-wave on OraNA.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 17, 2008, 2:54:42 PM1/17/08
to

In good old Frank's words, don't like it, don't read it, get over it.

I think that's what passes as advice in these circumstances in the
"Oracle Community", anyway.

In case you hadn't noticed, I had just said that further elaboration
should probably be tackled by email. And neither Frank nor hpuxrac had
posted anything further to the thread.

Seems like you're preaching to the choir, therefore.

ignaci...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 18, 2008, 1:52:27 AM1/18/08
to
> > I hope a few higher ups in the Oracle community (can we call it that
> > in the context of this thread) can get in touch with Howard to talk to
> > him on the subject.
>
> > Cheers
> > Doug
>
> The trouble is, Doug, it's not a matter for the higher ups. It's
> rather more a question of how "the lower downs" (a group I happen to
> believe I belong to, incidentally!) behave in the aggregate. Or
> rather, behaved.
>
> Besides, the entire blogging "game" was started by an Oracle employee
> (who explicitly called it "an infectious meme", funnily enough); and
> it was recently and enthusistically supported as "nourishment" for the
> Oracle community by the Editor-in-Chief of the entire Oracle
> Technology Network. So it would be a bit of an up-hill battle going
> that route, I think!
>

What *if* this was a kind of experiment? ... this '8-things' seems
like a candid and very irresponsible idea, but what *if* somebody
needed a real avalanche of data to test something new ... kind of open-
source-like comunity stress test.

Much like a supersonic jet breaking the sound barrier, it could bother
us all... but we cannot stop it.

*STAMPEDE*

Regards

soo...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 18, 2008, 12:43:58 PM1/18/08
to
On Jan 16, 3:34 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
> No, it isn't.

To stay consequent, Howard ought as well stop reading OraNA and
sources containing information coming from Oracle community. IMHO this
is a necessary part of the "withdrawal from community".

Sad though, while the guy, who used to have T-Rex (or alike) on his
website, wasn't able to shut down Dizwell on his will, a simple and
stupid idea of chain letters was pretty effective although wasn't
aimed at all.

On the other hand, professional community is not worth personal
health.

/Vytas

joel garry

unread,
Jan 18, 2008, 1:19:01 PM1/18/08
to
On Jan 18, 9:43 am, soor...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 16, 3:34 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > No, it isn't.
>
> To stay consequent, Howard ought as well stop reading OraNA and
> sources containing information coming from Oracle community. IMHO this
> is a necessary part of the "withdrawal from community".

Naw, lurking is perfectly acceptable, withdrawal refers to
participation.

>
> Sad though, while the guy, who used to have T-Rex (or alike) on his
> website, wasn't able to shut down Dizwell on his will, a simple and
> stupid idea of chain letters was pretty effective although wasn't
> aimed at all.

That is what makes it so bizarre, and why so many people think it is
an overreaction, or just an excuse to withdraw from his commitment to
the community. People try to make sense of things within their own
experience and world view, and have trouble accepting his explanation
of simple reaction to behavior. It's easier to think he has some more
complicated motivation. Of course, this isn't the first time he's
left an online community in a huff, but he appears to be putting a lot
more effort into huffing this time.

>
> On the other hand, professional community is not worth personal
> health.

True, but it is common to tie one's sense of identity and self-worth
to one's vocation. Any modification of vocation, whether changing
jobs (up or down) or significantly changing the work involved, is
stressful. Adding community on top of that can mean more stress for
relating one's identity to the community.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

"The only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire."

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 18, 2008, 6:45:30 PM1/18/08
to
On Jan 19, 4:43 am, soor...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 16, 3:34 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > No, it isn't.
>
> To stay consequent, Howard ought as well stop reading OraNA and
> sources containing information coming from Oracle community. IMHO this
> is a necessary part of the "withdrawal from community".

I presume you mean "consistent".

Well, you're right, in a way. I certainly have stopped posting at OTN
(last one was 6 days ago, or so). I've asked to be removed from the
list of Oracle ACEs. And I haven't posted on any technical matter at
cdos: I've merely answered the questions that were asked of me.

I don't know how much more consistent you want me to get.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 18, 2008, 6:55:18 PM1/18/08
to
On Jan 19, 5:19 am, joel garry <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote:
> On Jan 18, 9:43 am, soor...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jan 16, 3:34 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > No, it isn't.
>
> > To stay consequent, Howard ought as well stop reading OraNA and
> > sources containing information coming from Oracle community. IMHO this
> > is a necessary part of the "withdrawal from community".
>
> Naw, lurking is perfectly acceptable, withdrawal refers to
> participation.
>
>
>
> > Sad though, while the guy, who used to have T-Rex (or alike) on his
> > website, wasn't able to shut down Dizwell on his will, a simple and
> > stupid idea of chain letters was pretty effective although wasn't
> > aimed at all.

Don Burleson (for it was he) never attempted to shut down Dizwell. He
threatened to sue me. Quite a different matter.

> That is what makes it so bizarre, and why so many people think it is
> an overreaction, or just an excuse to withdraw from his commitment to
> the community.

Oh, do tell: what "commitment" would that be? I certainly don't
remember signing any contracts.

There's no commitment. Only a mutual obligation to respect each other.
The Oracle community broke that deal.


People try to make sense of things within their own
> experience and world view, and have trouble accepting his explanation
> of simple reaction to behavior. It's easier to think he has some more
> complicated motivation.

Yes, there's a conspiracy theorist born every minute it would seem.
I've explained what went on. The explanation happens to be entirely
factual and comprehensive as far as it accounts for my actions. I
don't particularly care whether you believe it or not.


Of course, this isn't the first time he's
> left an online community in a huff, but he appears to be putting a lot
> more effort into huffing this time.

Oh, you mean that my realising posting here was a complete waste of
time because one or two people saw it as a game to attack anything I
wrote is "having a huff". Sorry, Joel. No comparison.

> > On the other hand, professional community is not worth personal
> > health.
>
> True, but it is common to tie one's sense of identity and self-worth
> to one's vocation. Any modification of vocation, whether changing
> jobs (up or down) or significantly changing the work involved, is
> stressful. Adding community on top of that can mean more stress for
> relating one's identity to the community.


When you're in full not-informed-wild-speculation mode, you really do
write a lot of tosh.

My sense of identity is alive and well and living in Pheasants Nest.
It needs no psychobabble from you to be fit and healthy, thanks very
much.

That you are content to put up with chain letter vandalism is your
choice. It isn't mine. That's all that motivated me in withdrawing my
material. It's the only explanation there is. And if you want to keep
burbling away looking for "deeper" and "more significant" motives,
well... I certainly can't stop you from wasting your time.

Over and out.

Frank van Bortel

unread,
Jan 19, 2008, 5:46:30 AM1/19/08
to
hjr.p...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> There's no commitment. Only a mutual obligation to respect each other.
> The Oracle community broke that deal.
>

No - some members broke "the deal", perhaps, if any.
I regard myself part of the Oracle community, and I cannot
remember having done anything to put you off.

No generalization, please! You yourself have always been
very exact with words.

--

Regards,
Frank van Bortel

Top-posting in UseNet newsgroups is one way to shut me up

hjr.p...@gmail.com

unread,
Jan 19, 2008, 6:51:23 AM1/19/08
to
On Jan 19, 9:46 pm, Frank van Bortel <frank.van.bor...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > There's no commitment. Only a mutual obligation to respect each other.
> > The Oracle community broke that deal.
>
> No - some members broke "the deal", perhaps, if any.
> I regard myself part of the Oracle community, and I cannot
> remember having done anything to put you off.

Really, I'm doing my best to end this thread and my contributions
here! But if you keep on making points like these, I feel obliged to
reply.

And by way of reply on this occasion, I am just going to say: look
around you. This very thread is eloquent on your "having done
something to put me off", though I don't see or feel it in quite those
personal terms. "Get over it and visit another blog aggregator" was, I
think, your particular brand of pithy comment earlier in the piece,
after all.

You are, of course, entitled to that view. And I am equally reasonably
(I think) entitled to interpret that as, at best, straight
acquiescence in the vandalism perpetrated by others and which, to me,
constitutes a 'deal breaker'.

> No generalization, please! You yourself have always been
> very exact with words.

And on this occasion, too. Naturally, when one speaks of an aggregated
entity like "community" or "society", there is always the trivial
objection that specific individuals might have felt or acted
differently. That neither Tom Kyte nor Jonathan Lewis played tag is a
simple enough demonstration that the aggregate doesn't capture every
individual nuance possible. So much is, frankly, obvious: it is the
root of Thatcher's, 'There's no such thing as society just lots of
individuals' claim, after all.

Nevertheless, in so far as it's possible to talk about an Oracle
community at all, the vast majority of that community took a view on
the chain letter "game" that I take to be a breach of the mutual
obligation of consideration and respect that was the basis for my
making my work available. If you or some other reader wishes to make
some sort of mental reservation after the fact along the lines, "But
that didn't include me", then you are free to do so. Just so long as
you realise that from where I'm sitting, there are no such
distinctions to be drawn.

Now: I really don't want to keep discussing this further here, and
we've already had one complaint that it's all horribly off-topic. If
you wish to elaborate or get me to elaborate on something here, please
email me.

shakespeare

unread,
Jan 19, 2008, 1:31:24 PM1/19/08
to

<hjr.p...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:4a81cb0f-ca6f-4f1b...@v67g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

hjr, if you want him to shut up, just top post for once.... ;-)))

Shakespeare


hpuxrac

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Jan 19, 2008, 6:12:17 PM1/19/08
to
On Jan 16, 7:52 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

Well best wishes and I wouldn't be surprised to see you back around at
some point. Somehow you seem remarkably restrained here on cdos
( after the great oracle blogging tag game whatever it was occured )
when in the past some of your comments to me have been less than
constrained.

Geez I guess I won't be able to get thrown out of dizwell any longer!?

I guess a final sign that the "end was near" when your old site gave
thanks to the lead singer of the Cherry sisters a clear sign that the
oracle apocalypse was near if ever I saw one ( kidding kind of ).

hpuxrac

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Jan 19, 2008, 6:51:56 PM1/19/08
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On Jan 16, 7:52 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

OK I took a quick look at Tim Hall's blog ... he posted the following
info ...

***************************

just got tagged by Chris Muir, so here goes my 8 things you may not
know about me:

When I was 14 years old I weighed 19 stone. That's 266 pounds or 121
kilos.
I was a distinctly average student at school. A few of my friends were
surprised when I passed my exams. Education only really started to
click with me after I left school and could focus on subjects I was
interested in. At sixth form and university I started getting into my
groove.
I've been a vegetarian since I was 15, so that's about 23 years and
counting. Even before that I ate very little meat and I never ate
fish. I don't like eggs and I can't drink milk on its own. I love
cheese. Life without cheese is not life.
I have a form of diabetes known as MODY. In my case it relates to a
mutation of the Glucokinase gene. It's no big thing, but I have to
avoid getting too fat and I have to be careful with sugary food
(refined or natural).
I played guitar in a couple of bands (Pondlife and Coppertongue) at
University. The bands were pretty good, but I wasn't. I specialized in
making weird noises with my guitar effects, rather than actually
playing.
I love singing. If I'm alone I sing out loud. If I'm in public I sing
in my head. If you see me in the street or in a shop I'm not a crazy
guy talking to himself. I'm just singing. I can hold a tune, but I'm
no star in the making.
Most of my adult life I've been an insomniac. I find it very difficult
to get to sleep and when I do I wake up a lot during the night. As a
result I tend to remember lots of dreams. On average about 3-5
distinct dreams a night. I keep meaning to start writing them down but
I've never got round to it yet.
I started working with Oracle by accident. I was at an interview and
they asked me if I'd heard of Oracle and I said, "Is that the teletext
stuff on TV?" At the time Oracle was the name for teletext on ITV, so
it wasn't as dumb as it sounds. Somehow I got the job anyway and the
rest is history.
I'm going to tag Andrew Clarke, Andy C, David Aldridge, Dimitri
Gielis, Howard Rogers, Jeff Hunter, John Scott and Kevin Closson.
(Alphabetical from my blogroll, hopefully not repeating anyone. )

*********************

Yes I guess I agree this is kind of sophomoric and I don't see any
real connection except near the bottom with anything oracle related.

As I noted in my first post the material and quality of stuff being
blogged about for oracle has suffered over the last couple of years
( well Kevin Closson and Jonathan Lewis may be exceptions ) IMHO.

Guess you have a good point and if you were paying for bandwidth
getting monopolized by content like that above ... well say no more.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

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Jan 19, 2008, 7:40:07 PM1/19/08
to

I'll just say this one more time, because otherwise I look like I'm
trying to censor content on other people's blogs (and indeed, that's
where the 'when I signed up for a blog I didn't sign your terms and
conditions' fatuous comment that one person sent me comes from)

It doesn't matter that the content you quote was not Oracle related. I
WELCOME non-Oracle related matters on blogs. I've posted plenty of it
in my time. I expect others to do likewise. Whether the above is
"sophomoric" or not was, to me, 100% irrelevant. Tim Hall, like any
other blog owner, is entitled to fill his blog with whatever content
he deems fit and proper, and I'm not making one iota of protest about
that.

What causes me problems is the "I'm going to tag..." line. It was the
encouragement of an explosive growth in this sort of thing that was
always going to be a problem. It was also the fact that when I pointed
out what an explosive growth in this sort of thing was doing to blog
aggregators Tim replied, 'so what, I don't use the site so it doesn't
matter to me, I never asked to be aggregated in the first place, blog
aggregators are skimming my work to their own personal advantage
anyway, I don't care, this is fun'.

In the IT world, anything that generates an exponentially-growing
volume of traffic is a problem. Encouraging it is therefore just plain
daft. Not caring about it once the damage has started is just
irresponsible and rather anti-social.

*That's* the problem here, not the nature of the content.

hjr.p...@gmail.com

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Jan 21, 2008, 5:36:45 AM1/21/08
to
On Jan 20, 10:12 am, hpuxrac <johnbhur...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Jan 16, 7:52 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> snip
>
> Well best wishes and I wouldn't be surprised to see you back around at
> some point.

I would (be very surprised).

> Somehow you seem remarkably restrained here on cdos

Not at all, actually (the "remarkably" bit). What you (and others)
have seemingly never quite grasped is that I will not accept crappy,
illogical, flimsy, ill-researched and badly-worded **technical**
advice, and I have consistently rubbished such advice whenever I've
seen it. I've often called such advice idiotic, moronic, stupid, silly
and a whole host of other epithets, because invariably that's exactly
what it is. Very, very seldom have I ever called the people offering
that advice stupid, moronic, idiotic, silly etc etc etc, largely
because I have to be pushed very hard before I start making judgements
about *people*. Making judgements about matters of technical fact is
not so hard, however.

Now some people see that as splitting hairs, but I don't. The
difference is exactly what you're commenting on as if it were some
sort of surprise.

We are not now discussing technical matters, but the state of play in
the "Oracle community". It is in the nature of a philosophical
discussion. There are no technical rights and wrongs. Your opinion, or
Frank's or Joel's or indeed anyone else's, is as valid as any other -
though when those opinions seem grounded on a very shaky sense of the
technical nature of a blog aggregator as it has been in the case of
one or two, then I am disinclined to take them very seriously.

Anyway, no: I'm not trying to persuade you that "I'm a nice guy
really". I'm just saying, you shouldn't be surprised that I value
others' opinions when it's a question of exchanging opinions. It's
when they start passing their opinions (or half-baked guessing) as
technical fact about Oracle that I very rapidly stop being a nice guy.
Anything short of that point, and I have no problem and never have
had. (I won't claim a 100% record of clean hands in the matter,
however, because I'm not quite the saint with the same amount of
restraint that the likes of Tom or Jonathan seem able to muster!)

And there **are** two regular posters here who, I am sad to say,
regularly post such put-downs lacking much or any technical content
that I have a pretty low opinion of them personally, but that's really
not my general mode of operation! (Believe it or not, it's up to you,
anyway!)

> ( after the great oracle blogging tag game whatever it was occured )
> when in the past some of your comments to me have been less than
> constrained.

As I say, when I get told in 2008 that DBWR doesn't write to datafiles
during manual hot backup mode, I get very unconstrained very rapidly!
I don't recall chapter and verse about my exchanges with you now. But
I will confidently state that if I gave it to you, you had it coming.
Equally probably, there's room for a modicum of climb-down on both
sides after all this time.

> Geez I guess I won't be able to get thrown out of dizwell any longer!?

Since there's no forum, no you won't. But I'd throw you out all over
again if I could if your behaviour remained as it once was. It comes
down to technical fact (or the lack thereof) in your case, if I
remember correctly.

> I guess a final sign that the "end was near" when your old site gave
> thanks to the lead singer of the Cherry sisters a clear sign that the
> oracle apocalypse was near if ever I saw one ( kidding kind of ).

The guy bought me too excellent books which I thoroughly enjoyed and
which had been on my Amazon wishlist for a very long time. What did
you want me to say? "Go screw yourself"? Rude and ill-mannered, I'd
call that!

So no, there were no straws in the wind on that one in the slightest.
I was as surprised by Don's actions as anyone, but given those actions
occurred, I think the least I was socially obligated to do was give
him a note of public thanks. It's the lack of social graces on the
part of quite a few key people, after all, that is at the heart of my
current issues with the "Oracle community", so no I wouldn't go around
metaphorically sticking two fingers up to people who, whatever their
past behaviour, decided on at least one occasion to be *pleasant*.

Right. That's me really done here, for good, I promise. I've just
deleted the shortcut to the site. I won't see any replies. But the
email still works, of course, at least for a while.


joel garry

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Jan 21, 2008, 12:22:51 PM1/21/08
to
On Jan 18, 3:55 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> That you are content to put up with chain letter vandalism is your
> choice. It isn't mine. That's all that motivated me in withdrawing my
> material. It's the only explanation there is. And if you want to keep
> burbling away looking for "deeper" and "more significant" motives,
> well... I certainly can't stop you from wasting your time.
>

You seem to have missed the part at the beginning where I mentioned I
rarely use the aggregators, so haven't had to put up with chain letter
vandalism, and given such a choice I would likely react severely - but
looking at what actually happened, I might not have reacted at all,
since it blew over too fast.

Like most boycotts, your withdrawal of material seems nuts (or worse)
to those who focus on other parts of the entity being boycotted than
the area containing the asserted proximate cause of the boycott.
That's the choice _you_ have made.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.

"If the Enemy is in range, so are you."- Infantry Journal

frank.va...@gmail.com

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Jan 23, 2008, 4:50:18 AM1/23/08
to
On Jan 16, 9:14 pm, hjr.pyth...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> Now, when I point this out, I am told I am over-reacting, behaving
> like a spoilt child, dictating what others may post on their own blogs
> and all the rest.

Spoiled children came in just once, in (one of) my responses, and
I did not compare *you* to a spoilt child.

shakespeare

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Jan 23, 2008, 11:07:47 AM1/23/08
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<frank.va...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
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hjr has left the building..........................

Shakespeare


gazzag

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Jan 23, 2008, 11:56:34 AM1/23/08
to
On 23 Jan, 16:07, "shakespeare" <what...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> hjr has left the building..........................
>
> Shakespeare

I wish this thread would...

Noons

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Jan 23, 2008, 9:39:29 PM1/23/08