Does Oracle have anything like SAP Business Intelligence Accelerator?
zigz...@yahoo.com
Being Oracle Developer and DBA for many years, I was really intrigued
by SAP’s
Business Intelligence Accelerator (BIA).
https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/bia
You can google to get more information about BIA.
SAP BIA is said to improve performance of
Adahoc queries on data warehouses by 10 to 100. BIA stores data of a
table using columns (instead of rows as is done in relation
databases). It then compresses column based data and creates indexes.
Many customers are using BI accelerator and find it lives to its
claims.
I know Oracle recently introduced database machine for data
warehouses, but BIA column based storage, compression and indexing is
quite different. I am trying to find parallaels in Oracle but could
not find any.
I am starting this thread not to create any flame war of SAP vs
Oracle but to get technical feedback on the technology used is BIA and
whether anyone else provides similar functionality.
Having worked in Dataware Housing and Oracle databases for many years,
BIA technology is definitely revolutionary and amazing.
DA Morgan
>
> Being Oracle Developer and DBA for many years, I was really intrigued
> by SAP’s
> Business Intelligence Accelerator (BIA).
> https://www.sdn.sap.com/irj/sdn/bia
>
> Adahoc queries on data warehouses by 10 to 100. BIA stores data of a
> table using columns (instead of rows as is done in relation
> databases). It then compresses column based data and creates indexes.
> Many customers are using BI accelerator and find it lives to its
> claims.
>
> I know Oracle recently introduced database machine for data
> warehouses, but BIA column based storage, compression and indexing is
> quite different. I am trying to find parallaels in Oracle but could
> not find any.
I think you are confusing apples and trees. Almost all SAP installs
are done using the Oracle database. So when one looks at SAP
technology one is asking about an SAP technology built with an
Oracle database as its foundation (just as all apples grow on trees).
Thus a question such as "Does Oracle have something like this" is
lacking in context.
If you are asking about E-Business Suite then there is something we
can discuss but it would be off-topic in this usenet group which is
for server technology and I would direct you to look at Oracle's
TimesTen In-Memory Cache.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Puget Sound Oracle Users Group
www.psoug.org
zigz...@yahoo.com
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You are incorrect. I do not think you read any of the arcticles on BI
accelartor. BI accelator bypasses Oracle all together and provides
performance advanatage of 10 to 100 using a technology which does not
make use of anything in Oracle. BIA stores data from Oracle tables in
its own structure (not inside Oracle database at all). It uses its own
indexes outside of Oracle. It uses column base storage and
compression all outside of Oracle. By bypassing relational database
engine and using its propierity tehniques, it provides 10 to 100 times
improvement in query performance,
Any body who has interest in database performance and warehouses
should read BIA articles and find fot themselves this recolutionary
technology.
Serge Rielau
> I think you are confusing apples and trees. Almost all SAP installs
> are done using the Oracle database. So when one looks at SAP
> technology one is asking about an SAP technology built with an
> Oracle database as its foundation (just as all apples grow on trees).
Nestle runs arguable the biggest R/3 and SAP BW systems and it ain't
growing on an Oracle tree:
http://tinyurl.com/5r42gd
I doubt that almost all SAP BW installations run on Oracle.
> Thus a question such as "Does Oracle have something like this" is
> lacking in context.
>
> If you are asking about E-Business Suite then there is something we
> can discuss but it would be off-topic in this usenet group which is
> for server technology and I would direct you to look at Oracle's
> TimesTen In-Memory Cache.
You are off topic. The SAP BIA is server technology and not a front end
cache. TmesTen has no relation.
Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 Solutions Development
IBM Toronto Lab
DA Morgan
> DA Morgan wrote:
>> I think you are confusing apples and trees. Almost all SAP installs
>> are done using the Oracle database. So when one looks at SAP
>> technology one is asking about an SAP technology built with an
>> Oracle database as its foundation (just as all apples grow on trees).
> Arrogance comes before the fall.
> Nestle runs arguable the biggest R/3 and SAP BW systems and it ain't
> growing on an Oracle tree:
> http://tinyurl.com/5r42gd
Clearly easy to see why DB2 has been so marginalized in the marketplace
as to no longer be on most people's radar screens.
You confused the phrase "Almost all" with "All" and thus cited a single
exception to the rule.
Give Mark Townsend a call and perhaps he can get you into the Redwood
Shores ESL program.
> I doubt that almost all SAP BW installations run on Oracle.
No you don't. You know damned well they do. Because you know as well
as I do the number of Oracle licenses sold by SAP. If you don't then
I suggest you ask your internal IBM sources.
>> If you are asking about E-Business Suite then there is something we
>> can discuss but it would be off-topic in this usenet group which is
>> for server technology and I would direct you to look at Oracle's
>> TimesTen In-Memory Cache.
> You are off topic. The SAP BIA is server technology and not a front end
> cache. TmesTen has no relation.
No doubt you also think RAID is a hardware technology.
zigz...@yahoo.com
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
Intenetion of my thread is not to discuss Oracle vs DB2 or SAP
Application vs e-business suite, instead
to discuss BI accleator technology, where SAP is implementing data
ware house in its own non-relational database structures and how BI
accelator dramatically improves performance.
zigz...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Here is a quote from SAP CTO Vishal Sikka on BUsiness Intelligence:
"More recent work in business intelligence demonstrates that when it
comes to analytics, a great way to achieve performance improvements
and lower costs, is to organize data by columns in memory, instead of
rows in a disk-based RDBMS. Now we can perform aggregation and other
analytical operations on the fly within these main-memory structures.
Working together with engineers from Intel, our Trex and BI teams
achieved massive performance and cost improvements in our highly
successful BIA product. We are now taking this work a lot further; in
looking at ways to bring processing and state close together
elastically, and on the fly, and by looking at ways that the
application design can be altered so that we can manage transactional
state safely, and yet achieve real-time up-to-date analytics without
expensive and time-consuming movement of data into data warehouses via
ETL operations. "
Eric
...
>
> Here is a quote from SAP CTO Vishal Sikka on BUsiness Intelligence:
>
> "More recent work in business intelligence demonstrates that when it
> comes to analytics, a great way to achieve performance improvements
> and lower costs, is to organize data by columns in memory, instead of
> rows in a disk-based RDBMS. Now we can perform aggregation and other
> analytical operations on the fly within these main-memory structures.
> Working together with engineers from Intel, our Trex and BI teams
> achieved massive performance and cost improvements in our highly
> successful BIA product. We are now taking this work a lot further; in
> looking at ways to bring processing and state close together
> elastically, and on the fly, and by looking at ways that the
> application design can be altered so that we can manage transactional
> state safely, and yet achieve real-time up-to-date analytics without
> expensive and time-consuming movement of data into data warehouses via
> ETL operations. "
So it's an in-memory optimisation for the specific application, and not
anything to do with the database at all. It's been done lots of times
(not that specific thing, just the concept), and what usually happens is
that in a few years database and hardware improvements catch up with
the optimisation to the point where doing it is no longer worthwhile.
But it's off-topic for c.d.o.s.
There are people working with the idea of using column-wise storage for
the physical layer of an RDBMS, but I doubt that any existing major
product will change its entire disk-storage strategy anytime soon, so I
guess that's off-topic here as well.
E
zigz...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
What is done applies to analytics and business intelligence not to a
specific application. This topic should therefore be of interest to
anyone interested in performance improvements in databases. I
therefore do not consider it off topic, but respect your views.
Serge Rielau
> Serge Rielau wrote:
>> DA Morgan wrote:
>>> I think you are confusing apples and trees. Almost all SAP installs
>>> are done using the Oracle database. So when one looks at SAP
>>> technology one is asking about an SAP technology built with an
>>> Oracle database as its foundation (just as all apples grow on trees).
>> Arrogance comes before the fall.
>> Nestle runs arguable the biggest R/3 and SAP BW systems and it ain't
>> growing on an Oracle tree:
>> http://tinyurl.com/5r42gd
>
> Clearly easy to see why DB2 has been so marginalized in the marketplace
> as to no longer be on most people's radar screens.
>
> You confused the phrase "Almost all" with "All" and thus cited a single
> exception to the rule.
tell you something else. Would require big forces to buck the trend....
Here are some more exceptions:
http://tinyurl.com/59sqon
These are just the references.
And perhaps you should also consider that SAP on Windows sells with
oodles on MS SQL Server.
> Give Mark Townsend a call and perhaps he can get you into the Redwood
> Shores ESL program.
No apples without apple trees....
SAP requires Oracle...
My English is just about good enough to read the BS you're spreading.
I wouldn't mind if you at least admitted that you are a lobbyist.
>> I doubt that almost all SAP BW installations run on Oracle.
> No you don't.
My doubts are mine. How can you claim to know my thoughts better than I do?
DA Morgan
> DA Morgan wrote:
>> Serge Rielau wrote:
>>> DA Morgan wrote:
>>>> I think you are confusing apples and trees. Almost all SAP installs
>>>> are done using the Oracle database. So when one looks at SAP
>>>> technology one is asking about an SAP technology built with an
>>>> Oracle database as its foundation (just as all apples grow on trees).
>>> Arrogance comes before the fall.
>>> Nestle runs arguable the biggest R/3 and SAP BW systems and it ain't
>>> growing on an Oracle tree:
>>> http://tinyurl.com/5r42gd
>>
>> Clearly easy to see why DB2 has been so marginalized in the marketplace
>> as to no longer be on most people's radar screens.
>>
>> You confused the phrase "Almost all" with "All" and thus cited a single
>> exception to the rule.
> I cited the biggest.. If the biggest were the only exception that would
> tell you something else. Would require big forces to buck the trend....
The question is not whether you cited the largest, the smallest, or even
50 of them. The operative word in the sentence was "almost." And you
know perfectly well that it is the case as does the entire industry.
DA Morgan
I understand that. But you are in a database server group asking about
an application technology that is in most cases (yes MOST Serge) going
to be used in conjunction with an Oracle database.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
euan....@gmail.com
ROFLMAO, thats hilarious absolutely hilarious, thanks Daniel it was a
slow start to the week until you decided to lighten things up!
-Euan
zigz...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I differ, It is not an application technology, it is realted to
performance tuning of business intelligence applications. I was
looking for Oarcle BI groups, did not find any, so posted here.
SAP has been smart not to tie their databases to one vendor, so even
though Otracle is my favorite database, SAP undesrtands that there are
other databases (if I am not mistaklen SAP supports seven different
databases..).
DA Morgan
Keep Laughing:
http://sap.ittoolbox.com/groups/technical-functional/sap-bw/sap-bw-on-sql-server-vs-oracle-720912
If you want to other 10,000+ links with the same statement google
them yourself.
Serge Rielau
> euan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Almost all SAP installs are done using the Oracle database.
>>
>> ROFLMAO, thats hilarious absolutely hilarious, thanks Daniel it was a
>> slow start to the week until you decided to lighten things up!
>>
>> -Euan
>
> Keep Laughing:
>
> http://sap.ittoolbox.com/groups/technical-functional/sap-bw/sap-bw-on-sql-server-vs-oracle-720912
Cheers
Serge
euan....@gmail.com
> DA Morgan wrote:
> > euan.gar...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>> Almost all SAP installs are done using the Oracle database.
>
> >> ROFLMAO, thats hilarious absolutely hilarious, thanks Daniel it was a
> >> slow start to the week until you decided to lighten things up!
>
> >> -Euan
>
> > Keep Laughing:
>
>
> Gee 3 1/2 year old post. What's the word you like to use? Neolithic..
>
> Cheers
> Serge
> --
> Serge Rielau
> DB2 Solutions Development
> IBM Toronto Lab
Not just 3 1/2 years old but from "BI Guy" who works at some random
company with < 100 employees. Obviously a definitive source of SAP's
deployed database platforms.
Do you want to re-open the debate from a couple of years ago about how
Microsoft runs its SAP install on Oracle while we are at it :-)
Thx Daniel, you started the day with laughter and now I am going to
head home giggling at this "gem", and I bet Serge is too.
-Euan
DA Morgan
> DA Morgan wrote:
>> euan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> Almost all SAP installs are done using the Oracle database.
>>>
>>> ROFLMAO, thats hilarious absolutely hilarious, thanks Daniel it was a
>>> slow start to the week until you decided to lighten things up!
>>>
>>> -Euan
>>
>> Keep Laughing:
>>
>> http://sap.ittoolbox.com/groups/technical-functional/sap-bw/sap-bw-on-sql-server-vs-oracle-720912
>
> Gee 3 1/2 year old post. What's the word you like to use? Neolithic..
>
> Cheers
> Serge
Just like the numbers indicating there are more Oracle databases on this
planet than there are DB2, SQL Server, Sybase, and Informix databases
combined? Been that way for more than six months too.
Sorry Serge but the war is over and you were not on the winning team.
Even your own hardware and consulting divisions agree.
Want me to post the IBM System z10 EC presentation copyright 2008?
Just give me the official IBM permission to do so. <g> The only
place DB2 is mentioned is under the list of IBM Trademarks.
DA Morgan
Perhaps you would like to post links to data that contradicts it?
Didn't think so.
I am so impressed by posturing and fluff. <g>
euan....@gmail.com
To use your words there is nothing to respond to, the posturing and
fluff is all yours.
Actually hang on a moment, I do have something:
I believe that the majority of SAP installs on Windows run on SQL
Server,
I believe there are a significant number of SAP installs on SQL Server
of the total of all SAP installs
I believe there are a decent number of SAP installs on Oracle
I believe there are a decent number of SAP installs on IBM platforms
I believe there are SAP installs on Sun(MySQL) platforms
I therefore believe that "almost all" SAP installs are not on Oracle
Now normally the above would carry just as much or as little weight as
the post you referenced, ie none as its a random post on the web
somewhere, but its still better than any credibility than you and your
reference carry.
Lets get some real references in here, luckily I didn't have to go
back 3 1/2 years like you;
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000000133
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000002932
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000002049
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000001823
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000001774
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000001060
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000000647
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000000137
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000000078
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=201376
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=201213
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/casestudy.aspx?casestudyid=4000002956
http://www.sap.com/usa/industries/publicsector/pdf/CRS_Public_Sector.pdf
(this includes SQL Server, Oracle, DB2 and MaxDB Case Studies)
http://www.sap.com/usa/solutions/business-suite/crm/pdf/CS_2006_Story_Book.pdf
(this includes SQL Server, Informix, DB2, MAX DB, SAP DB, Oracle Case
Studies
-Euan
Serge Rielau
> Just like the numbers indicating there are more Oracle databases on this
> planet than there are DB2, SQL Server, Sybase, and Informix databases
> combined? Been that way for more than six months too.
installs out there than you may thing... don't confuse #installs with
$$.. majority does not imply "almost all".
Or are you telling me almost all americans voted for Obama?
> Sorry Serge but the war is over and you were not on the winning team.
> Even your own hardware and consulting divisions agree.
Hmmm.. You used to try to wind me up with TPC-C numbers.. Seems like the
hardware division disacgrees now.
You used to do it with Websp-here. Websphere has found religion (buying
BEA certainly helped).
The war has just begun.
DA Morgan
>> Perhaps you would like to post links to data that contradicts it?
>
> To use your words there is nothing to respond to, the posturing and
> fluff is all yours.
>
> Actually hang on a moment, I do have something:
>
> I believe that the majority of SAP installs on Windows run on SQL
> Server,
You are dissembling. I said the majority of ALL. I did not specify a
specific platform and operating system. But then you know that.
Liars, damned liars, and statisticians. We know which you are.
> I believe there are a significant number of SAP installs on SQL Server
Significant ... more dissembling. You are not contradicting me.
> I believe there are a decent number of SAP installs on Oracle
Decent ... as in the majority. Say it out loud. Show some integrity.
> I believe there are a decent number of SAP installs on IBM platforms
True as well but still not contradicting me.
> I believe there are SAP installs on Sun(MySQL) platforms
ROFLOL!
Nothing you wrote contradicts me. Integrity, if you wish to display
some, would suggest that you either apologize or put up numbers.
Don't worry ... I expect neither.
DA Morgan
> DA Morgan wrote:
>> Just like the numbers indicating there are more Oracle databases on this
>> planet than there are DB2, SQL Server, Sybase, and Informix databases
>> combined? Been that way for more than six months too.
> Even if that were true (and I suspect there are a lot more SQL Server
> installs out there than you may thing... don't confuse #installs with
> $$.. majority does not imply "almost all".
> Or are you telling me almost all americans voted for Obama?
I don't play games with numbers. You've got 'em so post 'em. Sure there
is SAP on DB2 and SQL Server but they are a small fraction of the
installed base.
>> Sorry Serge but the war is over and you were not on the winning team.
>> Even your own hardware and consulting divisions agree.
> Hmmm.. You used to try to wind me up with TPC-C numbers.. Seems like the
> hardware division disacgrees now.
> You used to do it with Websp-here. Websphere has found religion (buying
> BEA certainly helped).
> The war has just begun.
>
> Cheers
> Serge
The war is over. There were three battles:
Databases: 1 = Oracle, 2 = Microsoft
App Servers: 1 = Oracle, 2 = IBM
Applications: 1 = SAP, 2 = Oracle
Do you see a trend here?
Microsoft has one piece out of three, IBM one out of three, SAP one
out of three. You've been surrounded.
And we've still not seen the result of SAP's admitted theft of Oracle's
intellectual property.
euan....@gmail.com
> Puget Sound Oracle Users Groupwww.psoug.org
No need for an apology as you posted nothing substantive where as I
did, including actual references to SAP DB/MAX which you seemed to
find so funny.
As always you have narrowed down from your broad sweeping lies to
argue semantics, so its at this point I say thanks as ever for the
humour Dan and I'll leave you to crawl back under your little Oracle
rock.
-Euan
Shakespeare
Oracle vs SQL Server? I counted a ratio (quick scanning)
Oracle:SqlServer of 80:13 (out of 106 specified databases), not counting
the one where Oracle was named an OS)
And on MS Windows installations, most DB's are Oracle.
Shakespeare
DA Morgan
Lets play the game a bit further shall we?
Which company has the largest share of the database market according to
Gartner?
Which company, other than Oracle, sells the most Oracle licenses?
Ball's in your court. <g>
--
Daniel A. Morgan
Oracle Ace Director & Instructor
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
DA Morgan
Euan has never once, in all of his hit-and-run forays, ever let facts
stand in the way of posturing. He is like an attorney ... making the
best case he can for his client ... even though the video camera
clearly caught the crime.
Shakespeare
Well, I'm absolutely sure that MOST video cameras did NOT catch the
crime.....
Shakespeare
Shakespeare
Hint: the answer to the second question can be found in the annual
report of......... SAP!
Shakespeare