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Finding full-table scans?

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Sarah Billings

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Apr 4, 2003, 10:33:35 AM4/4/03
to
I am trying to figure out the v$sql_plan view so that I can display
counts of all tables that are over 300 blocks and are getting
full-table scans.

Has anyone had experience with this?

Thanks in advance. S.

Gabriel Gonzalez

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Apr 4, 2003, 11:18:42 AM4/4/03
to
Have you looked into EXPLAIN PLAN? Look at the docs for it
(tahiti.oracle.com)

Gabriel Gonzalez

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Apr 4, 2003, 11:20:03 AM4/4/03
to
> I am trying to figure out the v$sql_plan view so that I can display
> counts of all tables that are over 300 blocks and are getting
> full-table scans.

orry, now I understand your question. Disregard what I said, you are
further along than my reply.


Mikito Harakiri

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Apr 4, 2003, 7:04:51 PM4/4/03
to
select * from v$sql_plan

where operation = 'TABLE ACCESS'

and options = 'FULL'

and object_name in (

select table_name from all_tables

where blocks > 1000

)

grouping is left as an exersize to the reader.

"Sarah Billings" <ruki...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b7b5fcac.03040...@posting.google.com...

Don Burleson

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Apr 5, 2003, 6:39:42 AM4/5/03
to
Here is the script that I use to locate FTS.

A also have lot's more SQL scripts in my latest book, Creating a
self-tuning Oracle Database.

http://www.dba-oracle.com/bp/bp_book3_oracle9i_sga.htm


Hope this helps . .


--**************************************************************
-- Object Access script report
--
-- © 2003 by Donald K. Burleson
--
-- No part of this SQL script may be copied. Sold or distributed
-- without the express consent of Donald K. Burleson
--**************************************************************

-- ********************************************************
-- Report section
-- ********************************************************

set echo off;
set feedback on

set pages 999;
column nbr_FTS format 999,999
column num_rows format 999,999,999
column blocks format 999,999
column owner format a14;
column name format a24;
column ch format a1;

column object_owner heading "Owner" format a12;
column ct heading "# of SQL selects" format 999,999;

select
object_owner,
count(*) ct
from
v$sql_plan
where
object_owner is not null
group by
object_owner
order by
ct desc
;

set heading off;
set feedback off;

set heading on;
set feedback on;
ttitle 'full table scans and counts| |The "K" indicates that the
table is in the KEEP Pool (Oracle8).'
select
p.owner,
p.name,
t.num_rows,
-- ltrim(t.cache) ch,
decode(t.buffer_pool,'KEEP','Y','DEFAULT','N') K,
s.blocks blocks,
sum(a.executions) nbr_FTS
from
dba_tables t,
dba_segments s,
v$sqlarea a,
(select distinct
address,
object_owner owner,
object_name name


from
v$sql_plan
where
operation = 'TABLE ACCESS'
and

options = 'FULL') p
where
a.address = p.address
and
t.owner = s.owner
and
t.table_name = s.segment_name
and
t.table_name = p.name
and
t.owner = p.owner
and
t.owner not in ('SYS','SYSTEM')
having
sum(a.executions) > 9
group by
p.owner, p.name, t.num_rows, t.cache, t.buffer_pool, s.blocks
order by
sum(a.executions) desc;

Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 5, 2003, 9:04:35 AM4/5/03
to

"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
news:998d28f7.03040...@posting.google.com...

> Here is the script that I use to locate FTS.
>
> A also have lot's more SQL scripts in my latest book, Creating a
> self-tuning Oracle Database.
>
> http://www.dba-oracle.com/bp/bp_book3_oracle9i_sga.htm

Warning: Humbug Alert.

Please tell me what is self-tuning about being able to dynamically resize
bits of the SGA with SQL commands you have to type in yourself?? From your
table of contents, it would appear that you believe a self-tuning PGA counts
as a self-tuning database.

And then tell me why I should buy your book when not three months ago you
were posting information that was technically inaccurate and eight years out
of date, yet offering it as good advice for current databases.
(Incidentally, it was technically inaccurate eight years ago, too, but I
couldn't be bothered to point it out to you at the time).

The day you stop proclaiming yourself to be "one of the world's top Oracle
Database experts", and actually start demonstrating it, I'll shut up. Until
then, I'll just keep quietly pointing out what a fraud you are anytime you
pop up here.

HJR

Message has been deleted

DA Morgan

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Apr 5, 2003, 6:51:10 PM4/5/03
to
Don Burleson wrote:

> Jeez, I was just try to help the lady!
>
> My script workst, right?
>
> I did not see you offering to help. In fact, most of your posts are
> NOT helpful to anyone, usually just immature rants and complaints. . .
>
> To answer your question:


>
> > Please tell me what is self-tuning about being able to dynamically resize
> > bits of the SGA with SQL commands you have to type in yourself??
>

> It doesn't. Anyone with a half a brain could trigger them with
> dbms_job, but I guess that part went over your head.

Please take this off-line.

Thanks.

Daniel Morgan

Mike Ault

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Apr 5, 2003, 6:53:41 PM4/5/03
to
"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<jdBja.7783$1s1.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...

Howard,

We are all entitled to our opinions. However, whether or not the
advice given in past postings was correct or not bears little on
whether the information currently posted is good or not. In this case,
the script does as specified. if a small bit of self promotion is a
crime then all of us are guilty.

Besides, I don't see you answering the question, so perhaps you should
just keep quiet unless you have something constructive to say.

Mike Ault

Rob

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Apr 5, 2003, 8:58:53 PM4/5/03
to
I usually don't feel the need to rebuke messages here, but I can't
help it this time. Is the man's script above inaccurate or flawed?
Looks to me like it's something people on this board can use as is or
modify to fit their needs. In other words, it's something of worth
and demonstrates what boards like this are all about: DBA's helping
DBA's. Your message helps no one and serves no purpose. And where's
your actual answer to the original question and script that helps the
one who posted?

Rob

"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<jdBja.7783$1s1.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...

Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 5, 2003, 9:07:58 PM4/5/03
to

"Mike Ault" <mike...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> Howard,
>
> We are all entitled to our opinions. However, whether or not the
> advice given in past postings was correct or not bears little on
> whether the information currently posted is good or not.

I think it should have a bearing. Burleson is full of humbug, and when
you're about to act on his advice, it's worth bearing that in mind.

>In this case,
> the script does as specified.

A useful qualification, that first clause.

>if a small bit of self promotion is a
> crime then all of us are guilty.

If only it were a "small" bit of self-promotion! He claims he a
world-renowned expert on Oracle internals, but can't quite manage to work
out how indexes behave. He claims Oracle Corporation commissioned him to
write an Oracle Press book, when the Corporation has absolutely nothing to
do with Oracle Press. He claims and he claims, but he doesn't deliver.

More specifically with regards to this forum, he has posted advice here in
the past which is technically totally wrong, and withheld the minor nugget
of information that it was eight years old in the first place.

No, I didn't check his script to see whether it actually managed to answer
the original question: because I've checked other of his answers to other
questions, and they suck, so I kind of can't be bothered to keep correcting
him.

His posts should come with a statutory humbug warning. That's all.

> Besides, I don't see you answering the question, so perhaps you should
> just keep quiet unless you have something constructive to say.

I think it highly constructive, actually, to warn anyone intending to rely
on Burleson's posts that they are usually out of date, technically
inaccurate, and come from an ego bursting to promote itself, and to hell
with the facts in the process.

HJR

Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 5, 2003, 9:10:17 PM4/5/03
to

"Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
news:998d28f7.03040...@posting.google.com...
> Jeez, I was just try to help the lady!

Really? So what was all that about 'visit my website and see how good I am'
as well?

>
> My script workst, right?
>
> I did not see you offering to help.

By warning the original poster of the high degree of charlatanism inherent
in most of your posts, I think I was indeed helping.

HJR


Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 5, 2003, 9:22:15 PM4/5/03
to

"Rob" <Rob...@ka.net> wrote in message
news:42cc4cfc.03040...@posting.google.com...

> I usually don't feel the need to rebuke messages here, but I can't
> help it this time. Is the man's script above inaccurate or flawed?

No. Miraculously, he got it right this time.

> Looks to me like it's something people on this board can use as is or
> modify to fit their needs. In other words, it's something of worth
> and demonstrates what boards like this are all about: DBA's helping
> DBA's. Your message helps no one and serves no purpose.

The advice is: be warned about Burleson, because his advice is frequently
technically complete gibberish. That's this DBA helping all DBAs out there.
Like all advice from any source, you don't have to take it.

>And where's
> your actual answer to the original question and script that helps the
> one who posted?

My advice as just described is indeed of possible assistance to the one who
posted.

HJR

Connor McDonald

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Apr 5, 2003, 10:49:10 PM4/5/03
to

You could also temporarily bump up statistics_level to all and take a
look through v$sql_plan_statistics to get some more granular plan info.

hth
connor
--
=========================
Connor McDonald
http://www.oracledba.co.uk

"Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue"

Richard Foote

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Apr 6, 2003, 7:39:42 AM4/6/03
to
"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:jdBja.7783$1s1.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
Hi Howard,

Howard my friend, you've made mistakes here, I know I have, hell everyone
has.

So how about lightening up on Don (he didn't park next to you one day and
scratch your car did he) ?

If the guy takes the time and trouble to help someone out then that's great
but it's somewhat harsh to refer to a mistake he made three months ago. If
he makes another error, I'm sure he'll be more than glad to receive your
positive comments.

Fair enough ?

Richard


DA Morgan

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Apr 6, 2003, 1:49:16 PM4/6/03
to
Richard Foote wrote:

Seconded!

Come on Howard. You even lightened up on me so I know you have it in you. We
need to tone down the rhetoric here a bit methinks. If you want to jump all over
someone how about an expose on those egregious books claiming to be OCP guides.
You could post at amazon.com and rip them as severely as some of them deserve.

Daniel Morgan

Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 6, 2003, 4:33:42 PM4/6/03
to
> Hi Howard,
>
> Howard my friend, you've made mistakes here, I know I have, hell everyone
> has.

True enough. Big whopping mistakes, too, at times.

I can't recall ever passing on (inaccurate) 8-year old information without
so much as blinking, though.

>
> So how about lightening up on Don (he didn't park next to you one day and
> scratch your car did he) ?

Oh, I probably would if he wasn't such a dreadful self-publicist (and
technically inaccurate to boot). Or if he ever once admitted that his
knowledge of how indexes behave is, er, 'deficient'.

On the other hand, this arrived in my inbox today:

-------------
Mr. Rogers,

You published: "The advice is: be warned about Burleson, because his advice
is frequently technically complete gibberish." You have also published that
I am a fraud in a public forum.

In the USA (and in Australia, according to my attorney) this is libel, and
anyone who publishes a false statement is liable to pay damages to the
wronged party.

If you think that I am going to sit by while you publish material to smear
me, you are quite wrong.

This is notice that you are to retract your false and malicious statements.

I hope that it will not be necessary to pursue legal action against you, but
make no mistake, I have the resolve to defend myself.

Sincerely,

Donald K. Burleson
--------------

I reckon I must be doing something right when plonkers around the globe
decide a bit of 'intimidation by mentioning my attorney' is in order.

So I'll pass on being nice about Don. The technical, and other, accuracy of
his output in toto doesn't warrant it.

Regards
HJR


Niall Litchfield

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Apr 6, 2003, 4:41:00 PM4/6/03
to
"DA Morgan" <damo...@exxesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:3E90689C...@exxesolutions.com...

> Come on Howard. You even lightened up on me so I know you have it in you.
We
> need to tone down the rhetoric here a bit methinks. If you want to jump
all over
> someone how about an expose on those egregious books claiming to be OCP
guides.
> You could post at amazon.com and rip them as severely as some of them
deserve.

Yeesh! Even in postings suggesting we tone down our postings there is advice
to gou out and bash people these days. Did I miss out when the whisky went
around or what.


--
Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
*****************************************
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer
******************************************

PS and anyway there is a technical error in the above post since adverse
reviews (whether factual or not) tend to 'disappear' from Amazon - anyone
would think they were selling books or something.


DA Morgan

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Apr 6, 2003, 5:33:44 PM4/6/03
to
"Howard J. Rogers" wrote:

My goodness it is getting a best testy out there.

Burlseson is either bluffing or his attorney is taking him for a few thousand
dollars as to collect damages on such a complaint in a US court would require
proving damages. And it is almost impossible to prove financial damages in
almost all situations. To claim damages from a message posted in a usenet group
from another country would be as close to impossible as one can get without
angering the gods.

I'll support statements of fact no matter how painful to their recipient (even
when I am that recipient). But I think it is time we drew a hard and fast line
at c.d.o. against abusive and obscene language. One can challenge someone's
statements on a factual basis without resorting to language best reserved for 13
year olds and comedy clubs.

Daniel Morgan

Joe Bayer

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Apr 6, 2003, 10:20:27 PM4/6/03
to

"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:jdBja.7783$1s1.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> "Don Burleson" <d...@burleson.cc> wrote in message
> news:998d28f7.03040...@posting.google.com...
> > Here is the script that I use to locate FTS.
> >
> > A also have lot's more SQL scripts in my latest book, Creating a
> > self-tuning Oracle Database.
> >
> > http://www.dba-oracle.com/bp/bp_book3_oracle9i_sga.htm
>
> Warning: Humbug Alert.
>
> And then tell me why I should buy your book when not three months ago you
> were posting information that was technically inaccurate and eight years
out
> of date, yet offering it as good advice for current databases.
> (Incidentally, it was technically inaccurate eight years ago, too, but I
> couldn't be bothered to point it out to you at the time).

I have a copy of book "performance tuning using statspack" by Don Burleson,
it is a great book, a lot of innovative ideas and very informative.

Of course there is a little bit incorrect statement, like "if table A is
analyzed while table B is not, Oracle optimizer will dynamically analyze
first 5000 rows of table A", but you can not expect a book be completely
clean of mistakes. I like reading his books.


Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 7, 2003, 3:08:14 AM4/7/03
to
>
> I have a copy of book "performance tuning using statspack" by Don Burleson,
> it is a great book, a lot of innovative ideas and very informative.
>
> Of course there is a little bit incorrect statement, like "if table A is
> analyzed while table B is not, Oracle optimizer will dynamically analyze
> first 5000 rows of table A", but you can not expect a book be completely
> clean of mistakes. I like reading his books.

That's fine, Joe.

The Humbug Alert is just a heads-up to prospective DBAs. If you find
his material useful, go ahead and make use of it. That's perfectly
fine by me.

Though I think you'll find more informative and accurate information
elsewhere, that's all.

Regards
HJR

Pete Sharman

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Apr 7, 2003, 11:59:15 AM4/7/03
to
In article <3E90689C...@exxesolutions.com>, DA says...
>
snip

>
>Seconded!
>
>Come on Howard. You even lightened up on me so I know you have it in you. We
>need to tone down the rhetoric here a bit methinks. If you want to jump all over
>someone how about an expose on those egregious books claiming to be OCP guides.
>You could post at amazon.com and rip them as severely as some of them deserve.
>
>Daniel Morgan
>

I'm sure you meant someone else's than mine, didn't you Daniel? :)

HTH. Additions and corrections welcome.

Pete

SELECT standard_disclaimer, witty_remark FROM company_requirements;

DA Morgan

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Apr 7, 2003, 3:59:20 PM4/7/03
to
Pete Sharman wrote:

Of course Peter. I was referring to those OTHER books. You know the ones that give
wrong-headed advice.

Do I get an autographed copy of yours now?

Daniel Morgan

Pete Sharman

unread,
Apr 7, 2003, 6:11:07 PM4/7/03
to
In article <3E91D898...@exxesolutions.com>, DA says...
>
snip

>Of course Peter. I was referring to those OTHER books. You know the ones that
>give
>wrong-headed advice.
>
>Do I get an autographed copy of yours now?
>
>Daniel Morgan
>

Well you would if I could find any. My publisher also went out of business, but
is probably not as sadly missed as Tom's will be. :(

Howard J. Rogers

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Apr 7, 2003, 6:43:00 PM4/7/03
to

"Mike Ault" <mike...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> We are all entitled to our opinions. However, whether or not the
> advice given in past postings was correct or not bears little on
> whether the information currently posted is good or not. In this case,
> the script does as specified. if a small bit of self promotion is a
> crime then all of us are guilty.
>
> Besides, I don't see you answering the question, so perhaps you should
> just keep quiet unless you have something constructive to say.
>
> Mike Ault

My inbox has been fair brimming with mail from people claiming I've been too
harsh on Don Burleson, just as Mike did here. After all, he provided a
script which works, doesn't it?? And he is a Very Important Person who edits
the Oracle Internals magazine, so he surely knows more than me. Surely??

Does the script work? I thought I'd check.

Don's script has this little nugget of a where clause:

where
a.address = p.address
and
t.owner = s.owner
and
t.table_name = s.segment_name
and
t.table_name = p.name
and
t.owner = p.owner
and
t.owner not in ('SYS','SYSTEM')

Now the interesting bit is "t.table_name = s.segment_name", where t =
dba_tables and s=dba_segments.

Can you think of any circumstances under which a table_name doesn't match a
segment_name?? There are several.

Here's one for starters:

SQL> connect scott/tiger
SQL> create table blah (
2 col1 number primary key)
3 organization index;

SQL> select table_name from dba_tables where table_name='BLAH';
TABLE_NAME
------------------------------
BLAH

SQL> select segment_name from dba_segments where segment_name='BLAH';

no rows selected

So, Don's script doesn't work at all for Index Organized Tables, simply
because when you create an IOT, the segment that gets created is named after
your primary key constraint, and doesn't use the table name included in the
'create table' clause at all.

Any others?

Try this one:

SQL> create table sales (
2 col1 number primary key,
3 col2 char(5))
4 partition by range(col1)
5 (partition p1 values less than (100),
6 partition p2 values less than (200));

Table created.

SQL> select table_name from dba_tables where table_name='SALES';

TABLE_NAME
------------------------------
SALES

SQL> select segment_name from dba_segments where segment_name='SALES';

SEGMENT_NAME
----------------------------------------------------------------------
SALES
SALES

There are two segments called SALES, both owned by Scott, because my create
table statement creates two partitions. Simply asking for table_name to be
equal to segment_name means Don's pearl of a script doesn't work properly
for partitioned tables, therefore.

Dare we ask how we go with clusters??

SQL> create cluster people
2 (deptno number(2))
3 size 512;

Cluster created.

SQL> create index people_idx on cluster people;

Index created.

SQL> create table dept10
2 cluster people (deptno)
3 as select * from emp where deptno=10;

Table created.

SQL> create table dept20
2 cluster people (deptno)
3 as select * from emp where deptno=20;

Table created.


SQL> select table_name from dba_tables where table_name='PEOPLE';

no rows selected

SQL> select segment_name from dba_segments where segment_name='PEOPLE';

SEGMENT_NAME
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEOPLE

The reason this time, of course, is that 'PEOPLE' is the cluster name: the
cluster physically exists, so is listed in DBA_SEGMENTS. But the tables
which logically exist within the cluster are called DEPT10 and DEPT20, so
it's these names which are listed as table_name in DBA_TABLES.

So, Don's script is useable provided you don't implement any of the
'advanced' features of Oracle segment handling that have appeared since
about version 7.

Oh... I forgot to mention. If you are concerned about full scan operations,
where in Don's script will you find out about index fast full scans? Er,
nowhere.

OK, OK... so maybe Don was just being nice, and assuming that the original
poster doesn't have anything so advanced as an IOT or a partitioned table.

What else is wrong with it, then? Not much, except that he collects
everything from v$sql_plan and *only then* throws away the information
concerning SYS and SYSTEM. Usual best practice, surely -and especially from
the world's leading performance tuning expert- is to throw away early, not
after you've gone to the effort of collecting it.

I'm not even going to start on the huge impact querying from dba_segments
will have on a database with even a reasonable number of segments; nor the
hideous number of library cache latch hits his little query will induce.

All this, remember, from someone who describes themselves as "one of the
world's top Oracle Database experts", as having "more than 20 years of
full-time DBA experience", and as having been "chosen by Oracle Corporation
to write the authorized Oracle Press books Oracle 9i High Performance
Tuning...".

But his script only works if you use tables, tables and nothing but
tables... and preferably no indexes either. It's shoddy. My DBA Fundamentals
I students could have come up with something comparable.

So no, I haven't been unduly harsh on Don. His technical prowess is
demonstrably pathetic. As I originally said: Humbug Alert.

Regards
HJR


Joel Garry

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Apr 7, 2003, 6:54:32 PM4/7/03
to
DA Morgan <damo...@exxesolutions.com> wrote in message news:<3E909D38...@exxesolutions.com>...

Ah yes, the old "posting email in a public forum" etiquette.

> >
> > So I'll pass on being nice about Don. The technical, and other, accuracy of
> > his output in toto doesn't warrant it.
> >
> > Regards
> > HJR
>
> My goodness it is getting a best testy out there.
>
> Burlseson is either bluffing or his attorney is taking him for a few thousand
> dollars as to collect damages on such a complaint in a US court would require
> proving damages. And it is almost impossible to prove financial damages in
> almost all situations. To claim damages from a message posted in a usenet group
> from another country would be as close to impossible as one can get without
> angering the gods.

Well, if the person posting happened to be connected somehow with a
large US corporation, and the person damaged merely has to convince a
Bay Area jury of flakes and nuts that there is a preponderance of the
evidence, even if it is close to impossible, then the insane system
still could allow legal blackmail. While even just a few years ago it
was quite ridiculous, the way things are now, who knows? Personally,
I don't think there are many "clean hands" in this matter.

>
> I'll support statements of fact no matter how painful to their recipient (even
> when I am that recipient). But I think it is time we drew a hard and fast line
> at c.d.o. against abusive and obscene language. One can challenge someone's
> statements on a factual basis without resorting to language best reserved for 13
> year olds and comedy clubs.

Dang, I'd like to see a comedy club DBA seminar.

jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
"I'd like to be a bird and sing and spread my wings and fly. And
ocassionally peck someones eyes out." - George Carlin

Pete Sharman

unread,
Apr 7, 2003, 11:44:38 PM4/7/03
to
In article <91884734.03040...@posting.google.com>,
joel-...@home.com says...
>
snip

>Dang, I'd like to see a comedy club DBA seminar.
>
>jg
>--
>@home.com is bogus.
>"I'd like to be a bird and sing and spread my wings and fly. And
>ocassionally peck someones eyes out." - George Carlin

You mean the threads this week haven't been one?! ;)

Paul Drake

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Apr 8, 2003, 1:57:01 AM4/8/03
to
"Joe Bayer" <joeba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Lf5ka.2316$e97...@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...

and if you are not running on *nix, the book is of very limited
utility.
Then again, Valpuri's book had nothing specific for folks running on
win32.
The platform-agnostic stuff in both cases was fine - but once you get
platform-specific - in win32 land - they wouldn't tell you if it was
standard or daylight saving time.

happy daylight savings time - get out of the office and enjoy it - and
shovel some snow.

Paul

Nuno Souto

unread,
Apr 8, 2003, 1:59:33 AM4/8/03
to
"Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<o%mka.9259$1s1.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...


PMFJI

>
> My inbox has been fair brimming with mail from people claiming I've been too
> harsh on Don Burleson, just as Mike did here. After all, he provided a
> script which works, doesn't it?? And he is a Very Important Person who edits
> the Oracle Internals magazine, so he surely knows more than me. Surely??


Hmmmmm, I really have a problem with this "VIP" status that
from time to time sticks to people in the Oracle community.

It's one of the most pernicious traits of IT in general, the
search for the "ultimate guru". Personality cult. NO place
for it in a technical environment. Unfortunately, it's widespread
in the Oracle community. Much less common in other communities.


Many years ago I got badly burned by one such person, who shall
remain nameless. I was right, and that was demonstrated
and proven many times over. But at the time, that "VIP"
stuffed me up badly. I had to fight long and hard to regain
the reputation for technical correctness that person destroyed
in one single, incorrect and erroneous public statement.


So, I developed this instinctive reaction of alarm bells
and "bullshit artistry" rash EVERY single time I hear that
ANYONE should be heard unconditionally because they have
a status (self-appointed or otherwise) of "VIP" or whatever.

I'd have expected in this group no one would fall for this
con stuff, but obviously some do.


Now, I do happen to share Howard's opinion about the work of the person
in question. Notice I said "work". Not "personality". But, I can't
bring myself to say it as openly as Howard does. So, I stay out of
the debate. UNTIL it hits one of my "alarm" bells. Which the "VIP"
crap did.


Now, I pride myself in being a fair person. If Don (or any1 else)
provides advice I can't flaw, then it's fine by me and I won't
pin them down to the past. It happened recently here, where I
supported something he said, against a troll. But if something
is "vip" crap, I for one appreciate people like Howard who,
of their own time, point it out. I think it's a good service
to all.


>
> Does the script work? I thought I'd check.
>

Ooooops...... :)

>
> But his script only works if you use tables, tables and nothing but
> tables... and preferably no indexes either. It's shoddy. My DBA Fundamentals
> I students could have come up with something comparable.
>


Shortcuts, I suppose. AND one of the reasons for example Steve Adams'
scripts have so much stuff in them. Three quarters of it is not
needed if all you're dealing with is humbug stuff. It's the
last quarter, the special case, that sorts the man from the boys.


That's how one can see if the person has indeed researched the
subject or is just providing another load of scripting for
those dreadful "User Group Diskettes".

Which BTW were the MAIN source of MANY of the myths we
hear about nowadays...


Yet, I have recently seen "versions" of Steve's scripts abbreviated
of the extra detail stuff and passed as "highly technical scripts".
Nothing wrong with that, if acknowledged and explained. These
weren't...


> So no, I haven't been unduly harsh on Don. His technical prowess is
> demonstrably pathetic. As I originally said: Humbug Alert.
>


I for one say thanks.


Cheers
Nuno Souto
wizo...@yahoo.com.au.nospam

Howard J. Rogers

unread,
Apr 8, 2003, 4:59:06 AM4/8/03
to

"Nuno Souto" <wizo...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:73e20c6c.03040...@posting.google.com...

> "Howard J. Rogers" <howard...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:<o%mka.9259$1s1.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
>
>
> PMFJI

No pardonning necessary: I appreciate your comments *hugely*.

But then, you've always been sensible and decent, so I'm not that surprised.

Just grateful.

Best Regards
HJR


Howard J. Rogers

unread,
Apr 8, 2003, 5:16:25 AM4/8/03
to

"Joel Garry" <joel-...@home.com> wrote in message

>
> Ah yes, the old "posting email in a public forum" etiquette.
>

If he hadn't wanted his bullying tactics made public, he should have said as
much in his email. If he had merely posted an email saying 'Can't we make
up', I would have kept it quiet, even without him asking. But when he starts
threatening, he gets busted. If that's not 'netiquette', tough. It's
warranted, whatever.

> Well, if the person posting happened to be connected somehow with a
> large US corporation, and the person damaged merely has to convince a
> Bay Area jury of flakes and nuts that there is a preponderance of the
> evidence, even if it is close to impossible, then the insane system
> still could allow legal blackmail. While even just a few years ago it
> was quite ridiculous, the way things are now, who knows? Personally,
> I don't think there are many "clean hands" in this matter.

I'm not sure where clean hands come into it. Either he posts technically
good information, or he doesn't. Now if some complete newbie were to post a
script that is distinctly dodgy, I'd merely keep quiet about it, probably.
But when a self-proclaimed Oracle expert with 20 years' self-proclaimed DBA
knowledge does so, I think it warrants being held to a higher standard. And
as I've pointed out subsequently, the script he posted was Junior School
material.

I wouldn't even mind if it was Don Burleson's first foray into the
technically naiive. But it isn't. (And there's a sinking feeling that it
won't be his last).

Now I dare say I could have hedged my criticism about with florid phrases
and code-talk for the initiated, and in the process sounded utterly
reasonable and respectable. But stuff that. The guy peddles non- and
misleading information to the UNinitiated, using astounding marketing
flummery to make it more attractive and to give it a bogus veneer of
reliability. It is, frankly, a disgrace, and I make no apologies whatsoever
for calling it tough.

Those who profit from those wanting to learn deserve to be held to the
highest standard of all. If Jonathan Lewis or Thomas Kyte (to mention but
two - who probably don't even make much of a profit from their efforts) can
produce the goods, then others should do so, too. And I include a certain
well-known Corporation in that charge.

HJR


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