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Feb 23, 2002, 11:36:41 AM2/23/02
Resume fraud is at the highest levels that i've seen in the Atlanta area
since I became a consultant in 1989 - particularly in the Oracle arena. I
can only imagine what it's like in other major cities.

What should you do if your honest resume has you positioned as a strong
Oracle professional, and noone is returning your calls ?

A. Send a letter to your Congressman to encourage companies to hire
American ( no work visas) ,and also to local recruiting companies to recruit
local candidates only - much like recruiting companies in Chicago and
Cleveland are doing.

B. Be the first one out the box to apply for a posted job. Scour the
consulting companies web sites before u waste your time with Dice, Monster,
or even Computer jobs. I'll have to say that Computerjobs may be the least
bitter of all those lemons. Net-Temps.com isn't bad et all.

C. Call - don't just send a resume

D. Try to follow up on who got the assignment and why u weren't considered,
didn't get an interview, or even didn't get a call.

E. Take names - Consulting companies have forgotten what common courtesy
means...Just a phone call or a return email to say that the position has
been closed will do. The surprising thing about this is that in the past the
no-responses were mom-and-pop operations, but now it's all of them ; Matrix,
WebGroup, Maxim Group, ManPower, Technisource, and the list goes on......
When the market recovers, they'll be calling you, just don't be calling them
back, or kindly remind them of when....... :-)

F. Pray that consulting companies have enough technical expertise to know a
fraud. This is a very severe problem in this industry. I don't think the
most qualified people get to be seen because of the volume of Fraudulent
resumes; they get overlooked because they're not 1st or 2nd....10th etc...

G. Back to the old days. I remember that some 12/13 years ago, with only 5
years experience, even companies like Matrix and Romac wouldn't place me.
They said I didn't have enough experience (7-10 years). I wasn't mad then
but I'm mad now, that 3 years of experience buys you the right to get a
consultant job. I think most of the consulting companies have decided to
focus on the $$$$. Remember what your client wants isn't always what's good
for you - as a consulting company u should know that.

H. Hope you know the recruiter you're working with...... Good luck in
training them on IT concepts... Consulting outfits have had tremendous
turnover lately.

I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many
resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for
them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this
sounds outlandish and even racist, but I recall during an earlier recession
while interviewing DBA applicants for a client, I'd received 100 resumes and
less than 10% had names I could pronounce.

J. Don't apply if you're not "qualified". Experienced Consultants by nature
are typically overqualified for the assignments they take.

K. Don't abuse the technical reference process. Don't have friends and
coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the
ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references
are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......Wrong, they don't won't to know,
particularly if they can get their client to $$$$$.

Huh !


Feb 23, 2002, 2:09:32 PM2/23/02
That's a lot of good advice; I've been in IT for 24 years and resume fraud
was a problem when I was trying to staff two DBA jobs back in 1996. I've
been having a devil of a time. And also have been wondering "Do native born
Americans go into computer science anymore, or are they all studying Art
History or something in college these days?" And I don't want to sound like
a bigot, but the whole H1x program was to provide people "when no American
with suitable skills could be found after reasonably diligent search", not
"anybody that writes any old thing on their resume, may or may be qualified,
but that you can get for really cheap and put Americans out of jobs because
they cost too much".

Yeah, I could get a job if I'd work for $25 an hour (all inclusive).

And faked-up resumes from my own experience in hiring/staffing seem to be
more frequent in H1 visa people, and the consulting firms often do little


"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message


Feb 24, 2002, 8:47:30 PM2/24/02
Anyone that hires based on a resume ... or references ... gets what they

To identify qualfied candidates an employer must put them to the test ... and I
don't mean one of those stupid computer-based pieces of garbage. I mean at the

Daniel Morgan


Feb 24, 2002, 11:24:38 PM2/24/02
Wow... what a great thread...
I've interviewed more people than I can count... I've had folks that claimed 10
years experience that *argued* with me about what rollback segments were...
they had rollback segments and redo logs reversed, and when I tried to point
out the error they argued with me... then there are the interviews where the
canidate didn't know there was a difference. Then, there are those with lots of
time experience, but they pad the skills that they have used. For example there
was the guy with verifiable 8 years DBA experience at the same company, but he
didn't have a clue about how to do hot backups. All they had ever done was cold
backups... and then other problems surfaced during the interview.

Bottom line is that one does have to be careful who one hires.

Robert G. Freeman
Oracle Press's Oracle9i New Features
Sybex's Mastering Oracle9i
Coriolis' Oracle8 to 8i Upgrade Exam Cram
Coriolis' Oracle 7.3 to 8 Upgrade Exam Cram

Niall Litchfield

Feb 25, 2002, 6:58:32 AM2/25/02
"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> I. If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many
> resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for
> them to place an Born-American ( no green-card, h1/f1, etc.). I know this
> sounds outlandish and even racist

Thats because it (especially when taken together with your comments about
"our friends from ASIA") *is* racist. Quite frankly if your attitude in
resumes and interviews is anything like you display in this post then you
are unemployable.

Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer



Feb 25, 2002, 9:22:06 AM2/25/02
Are you waiting for your green-card too ?

Niall Litchfield wrote in message

Niall Litchfield

Feb 25, 2002, 11:08:20 AM2/25/02
Nope I have absolutely zero desire to work in the states. Nor am I
asian,black, gay or any other minority you care to name( excepting maybe
Christian). I stand by my statements though. If you judge potential
employers,employees or your ability to get hired by reference to ethnic mix
that is a racist attitude. end of story.

Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer


"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message



Feb 25, 2002, 11:45:44 AM2/25/02
Speaking as one who has interviewed many hundreds in the U.S. there is no
question that fraud exists ... both with nationals and foreign nationals. And
both with respect to resumes, references, and education.

My feeling about references can be summed up as follows: "Anyone that can't find
three friends to lie for him or her is a pathetic soul. My feeling with respect
to resumes and education claims doesn't deviate far from that mark.

The only way to choose candidates is by interview ... first phone ... then in
person. And always with a whiteboard and a combination of prewritten and
spontaneous questions testing everything from basic SQL skills on up. My
favorite questions are the ones where the correct answer is "You can't do that
in Oracle." They quickly weeds out the fakes.

Daniel Morgan


Feb 25, 2002, 4:52:12 PM2/25/02
Lookit, Niall, I needed to hire 2 (two) more DBAs to fill out the complement
needed to have two DBAs on the AT&T side and two on the Lucent side when the
split came in October 1, 1996.

(The fact that it needed 4 people to replace me was amusing; my own district
manager said "Dammit, why don't both companies just contract you and even
though you work 90 hours a week, it's cheaper than 4 people...")

I got over 200 resumes.
100 went in the trash.
The other 100 got at least one phone screen from me.

The remaining 50 got another phone screen on a speaker phone in a conference
room with: me, our best programmer (Vishnu, who happens to be from India,
and for whom I was happy to testify under oath to help him get permanent
residency, as I did many years ago for a CDC programmer from Hong Kong), and
my only (other than myself) DBA at the time, H1 from Britain.

That narrowed it down to 10.

Those people we had in for nearly 4 hours each, for face to face,
whiteboarding, interviews with me and my technical folks, and two AT&T

Out of this, I got my two, both H1 visa types.

And guess what? I shouldn't have left out the sodium Pentothal and the
polygraph tests, because in spite of all this, they were extremely
substandard. Plus, their cultural values included treating women as dirt,
which wasn't sitting at all well with our team across the street, nearly all
of whom were Indian, and half of them women, and all very good. The one
"DBA" who "was a C programmer" typed so slowly, I figured it would be a good
week when he got a line of code out. He was the one that left his pager on
his desk whenever he left the building. The other guy was worse.

I don't think it's being bigoted or discriminatory to simply make a factual
statement that I got 200 resumes or more, 90% of them were H1/H1B people
sponsored by their consulting firms / slavers; among the rejectees were the
few Americans that were presented; and after what I think is diligence
beyond the call of duty, I still ended up with unqualified people that were
unsuitable and had ZERO people skills. I was absolutely color / ethnic/ sex
/ religion / everything else blind; 7 years of Diversity training makes that
instinctive. I just wanted the best people; what I got was the best of a
sorry lot.

But most of those resumes were massively falsified, as well, including as it
turns out, those of the two I picked. That's not bigotry, those are real,
factual numbers; last time I looked it up, deriving a percentage wasn't
considered a discriminatory act under Federal law.

I should have looked at 1,000 people to fill those two slots, I guess, but I
just didn't have time; maybe 20,000. Working 90 hours a week on splitting up
one of the world's largest corporations didn't give me that kind of time.

I've been out of work for entirely too long. I guess I better figure out a
better way to lie on my resume; 24 years of experience doesn't seem to cut
it; how can I compete with people claiming to be senior, willing to work for
15-20% of what I make, and resumes falsified up the wazoo? My career and job
prospects are sure shot to hell at the moment; who wouldn't hire someone for
a10th of what I make if they look good on paper.

So go tell it to the Marines, Niall.

Britain has far stricter rules about immigrant hiring and visas and such,
even if your spouse is British, so have a nice chat with your Uncle Tony all
about it, and don't preach to people who are wondering how they are going to
afford to live because a legal form of "migrant labor" has sucked up so many
of our jobs. The dot bomb crash and the tech market slowdown does NOT
explain this. $15/hr explains this.


"damorgan" <dan.m...@ci.seattle.wa.us> wrote in message


Feb 25, 2002, 5:01:40 PM2/25/02
Oh, and PS, Niall,

Looking for Americans first isn't being racist, it's the law, being
studiously and flagrantly ignored by consulting companies and everyone else.

The H1/H1B act was to provide relief for employers who had diligently
searched and could not find citizens with the skills and expertise required.

The exact wording (which I had to swear to under oath twice) includes a
phrase like "skills, expertise, or education which are not available in US
citizens to fill the required position, and therefore I swear and attest,
under penalty of perjury, that (xxxx) is required in this position, having
duly made every effort to find a qualified US citizen to perform the work
described below....". I guess they must have changed that.

It must be "I swear and attest under penalty of perjury that we can pay this
guy $10 an hour, and he'll do it."

Don't preach to me. I can't believe you can be so hypocritical given your
own country's laws on this matter.


"Niall Litchfield" <n-litc...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message

Chris Weiss

Feb 25, 2002, 5:35:02 PM2/25/02
I have screened hundreds of candidates and hired less than 5% of those
interviewed. There is no substitute for a rigorous consistent technical
interview. Resume fraud is nothing new. It may be worse than it was five
years ago, but this is only because so many companies have had sloppy hiring

The good thing about the economic down turn is that companies are becoming
more selective and some of the fluff is being driven out of the market.


Chris Weiss
High Performance Database Engineering

"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

Sathish Balas

Feb 25, 2002, 9:50:49 PM2/25/02
EJ ,

From your point "K" , it is obvious that you are referring to Indian
software professionals . I just want to inform you that you have
met the wrong people . I have 6+ years Oracle Consulting experience in the
United States . I have never lied on my resume
nor had Indian co-workers tell me lies about my work performed at different
client places .
Sathish B

"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

Niall Litchfield

Feb 26, 2002, 7:11:56 AM2/26/02
A couple of things and then I'll leave well alone.

1. Lying on resumes is wrong, and in my view should be a sackable offence.
2. Nearly all of what you wrote I agree with, and given your description of
the situation I can well understand your frustration. None of the behaviour
you describe is acceptable.

that said you originally wrote

"If you can get them on the phone, ask the consulting outfit how many
resumes they got and from what ethnic mix, and is there any incentive for
them to place an Born-American"


"Don't have friends and
coworkers tell lies for you. This is particular true of our friends from the
ASIA. Consulting companies should know better when my technical references
are from Ravi, Rajiv, Punji......"

Now I'm sorry if I have misread you but that suggests to me that you believe
that asians are more likely to lie and more likely to be substandard that
understanding was the racist attitude I was callling you on. If I'm wrong I

Finally FWIW in the UK currently there are fast track immigration
procedures for Oracle DBAs (it apparently is a skill in short supply) from
abroad, so the 'issue' is raised here as well. As for Uncle Tony,
fortunately we don't see much of him these days which is all well and fine
with me.

Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer


"RSH" <RSH_O...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message


Feb 26, 2002, 8:49:53 AM2/26/02
Niall, with all due respect, I did not write anything past the point where
you began with'

"that said, you originally wrote:..."

because I didn't. You must have been inadvertently quoting another party to
this party we've started, it certainly was NOT me.



"Niall Litchfield" <n-litc...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message



Feb 26, 2002, 9:38:22 AM2/26/02
For whatever it is worth, my comments were not meant as some blanket
condemnation; as I said in my notes, about half our team were from India and
were extremely well qualified and a pleasure to work with, and if anything,
their resumes were not truly reflective of all the skills they had. A
distinct departure from my nightmare in trying to hire just two DBAs.

I think one of my favorite memories was of Babita, who was a crack
programmer, as I was retooling our whole systems district.

"What are you and Todd doing all this to my machine for?"
'Trust me, Babs, you'll love it when we're done.'
"But I am happy with what I have."
'Babita, go to lunch, we can argue some more when you get back if you feel
like it.'
<after lunch>

"Reflections? What is this now I have to learn?!"
'Ah, for you, maybe 5 minutes to figure it out; I should be so lucky across
the street.'

"Scott, this is amazing, VI works right, all the function keys do what they
should (then I showed her how to tweak anything she liked), to think I have
had to put up with this crap I had before that was driving me crazy! "

'Does this mean you're done whining at me and you like your upgrade?'

"I am telling you I'll come after you or Todd with some sharp object if you
put this thing back the way it was; and I promise to never, ever question or
give you grief again if you or one of your team comes over to do something
to my machine; this is a miracle!"

'Babs, we wouldn't have done this if we didn't think it would help you!'

God Bless her, wherever she is. Of course, she was the first programmer to
be demeaned and insulted by one of my two prize DBA's, both from her country
of origin. I guess their male egos couldn't handle the thought a woman had
more smarts in her left toe than they had collectively in their entire
bodies. She came to me in tears and begged me never to leave, apologized for
anything she might have ever said to me in her life to offend me, (and this
is a tough, smart cookie). "I'll take care of it, Babs "(she hated that,
only took that from me).

Grabbed the DBAs by the throat, shoved them in a conference room, and said
"If you EVER treat ANYONE on staff like you did this woman I've worked with,
known, and respected for 3 years, you will be so out of here that if I can't
find a door handy, you will go out the nearest window. And I don't care what
floor we're on at the time. This is AT&T, and man, woman, race, being
handicapped, sexual preference or identity, age or youth, everyone is
treated with respect and courtesy. That's how we do things here, we find it
works out pretty well. This is your first and last warning.."

As usual, my subtle, highly trained approach to reminding people that
Diversity is a way of life in AT&T, not just a bunch of words, worked.

EJ, don't take this personally; this was a classic example of things that
I've had to endure on my end; I don't care where people come from, what they
look like; if they have the skills I need to fill a position, they have the
job. Ironically, I don't have a job largely in part because of people who
are not as honest or forthcoming about their qualifications, and because of
the H1/H1B slavery system, they'll work for whatever they can get.

So I'll probably end up working at McDonalds. I think they give you a free
meal at least.


"Sathish Balas" <sathi...@home.com> wrote in message

Niall Litchfield

Feb 26, 2002, 9:47:51 AM2/26/02
I've apologised off group but this deserves an apology on group as well. The
comments I attributed to RSH did not come from him, but from "EJ". This
misattribution is entirely my error.

Niall Litchfield
Oracle DBA
Audit Commission UK
Please include version and platform
and SQL where applicable
It makes life easier and increases the
likelihood of a good answer

"RSH" <RSH_O...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message



Feb 26, 2002, 11:56:22 AM2/26/02
Sir, that is extremely decent and courteous of you to take the trouble and
time to say this, and more than I deserve, I am sure.

Warmest regards from the Colonies,


"Niall Litchfield" <n-litc...@audit-commission.gov.uk> wrote in message



Feb 26, 2002, 1:22:35 PM2/26/02
Some of the most senior developers I have ever worked with have come from India:
But then again ... also some of the worst. Just like everybody else from
everywhere else.

The one problem that does profoundly affect many foreign developers (from any
country) is their understanding not just of the language but of how business
rules are created, used, and built into software. And that is something you just
can not learn in a programming class.

Daniel Morgan


Feb 26, 2002, 12:58:43 PM2/26/02
I can respect that u think it's racist, but why don't I want to go work in
those countries where most of the IT immigrants come from ? Let me give you
a few answers and then you'll figure it out....
a) There's not a demand
b) There are protectionist measures to protect the native work force
c) They don't want Americans there
These reasons don't point to racism, but economics. Oh, I guess I should
mention that I'm African-American, and in the south, with over 10+ years
Oracle experience, I only get the jobs when everybody else fucks up and the
project can't afford not to use me.

Oh, Niall buddy, you shouldn't have mentioned the Christian thing. Oh boy
do I have stories for you. I can't speak for Christians in general, but my
experience as a 7th Day Adventist for most of my life has taught me a
lession I shall never forget. To keep it short, I grew up as an adventist
and went to an Adventist college in Tn. My religion in general was very
strong, but the experience tore me away from that religion and certainly
strained my faith in God.

So buddy - remember this - Christianity is not an antonym for Racism

Niall Litchfield wrote in message



Feb 26, 2002, 1:47:30 PM2/26/02
Excellent response !

RSH wrote in message ...


Feb 26, 2002, 2:26:03 PM2/26/02
I've already apologized for the direct reference, but apologies to you and
your indian colleagues as well.


Sathish Balas wrote in message ...


Feb 26, 2002, 2:26:09 PM2/26/02

While your statements certainly have some merit, they are compromised
somewhat by the fact that so many consulting outfits have a significant
number of people on the bench and can afford to convence the client to take
them at a significantly reduced price.

Who could resist 30-50% off, even when it's going to cost you in the long
run ?

Chris Weiss wrote in message ...


Feb 26, 2002, 2:07:09 PM2/26/02

I agree - the reference to a certain ethnic group isn't fair, however, I'm
not conceding that it's a racist statement.

Whatever statements that I've made isn't anything different that I continue
to hear from most folk here, so don't say it's racism. I've never said it's
everybody, but just my experience - nobody elses. Racism isn't anything new
in America, As an African American, I've experienced it from all sides, and
I'm not complaining. So when I make a bold ( not new ) statement that many
agree with as reasonably factual, don't assume it's racism. Just conclude
that I've got guts - right or wrong !

Also, I would recommend or provide reference for only those where I feel I'm
not compromising my credibility with a client - And that's not RACISM...

You've forced me to go here then Niall...... If I gave a client 3
references; 1 from Cool J, Ricki-Dee, and lastly Aundrei-Rock, what are my
chances of these being perceived as valid references ?
All I'm saying here is that your references represent more than who you
might know , but who you've worked for.....and what are the chances that
I've worked for 3 rappers....


Niall Litchfield wrote in message



Feb 26, 2002, 4:49:08 PM2/26/02
I think and hope everyone has made their point and their peace with
everyone. We have enough problems going on in Afghanistan that we don't
need another war here as well. So let me divert a little into the more
fun/confusing Diversity things I've gone through as a manager over the years
( a manager that knows how to tune UNIX kernels and optimize inixx.ora
files, mind you..) First, AT&T, the US military, and most major American
companies drive sensitivity to cultural, ethnic, racial, religious,gender,
sexual preference, the special issues affecting the handicapped; the even
more special issues of "Veterans of Vietnam-era service" with or without
handicaps, and other stuff I am sure I have forgotten.

What all these high and mighty people writing and preaching this stuff
forgot, was that average Americans (sorry for using the A word, but there IS
a reason for it), unless they were raised by wolves, respect the rights and
dignity of others from the get go. (Okay, perhaps I should just speak for
myself in this matter, though I haven't seen much discrimination in regard
to anything in all the places I've been a manager Perhaps because my parents
raised me to know that it's what's underneath that counts; perhaps growing
up in a community (I'm Presbyterian, not that it matters, except...) of
mostly Jewish families, and a lot of my friends and schoolmates had parents
or grandparents, with those awful, unforgettable, eerie fading blue tattoos
of numbers on their arms.

When you grow up with friends and classmates whose parents or grandparents,
by whatever miracle, escaped the indignity, horror, and offense against God
of being jammed into standing room only "showers", having crystalline
calcium cyanide poured down stacks; the SS were so efficient, using CaCN2,
the body heat and perspiration moisture from the crowded victims would
release the cyanide gas; Zyklon B was cost-effective, you didn't need acid
to release the HCN. And then to be anonymously incinerated like garbage,
after of course anything interesting like gold teeth were removed. The
crematoria were designed to fuel on the body fat of the victims, to save
money on gas for the ovens.

But we do not learn, not all of us. The atrocities committed against Black
people in the South taught us nothing. There are Black people that hate
Jews, and vice versa. There are 'white supremacists' who seem to hate
everyone except those like themselves. There is hatred between immigrant
Asians and Black people in mixed neighborhoods. The lynchings, the
Holocaust, the violence of human beings behaving like animals because of
some difference in the color of their skin, their religiion, their nation of
birth, their sexual orientation, or, handicaps, have taught us nothing much
as Americans. That is a national shame.

Blowing up churches, or synagogues, or mosqes, who could dream of such
things in a country founded on freedom of speech and of religion?

I will close with a piece I wrote some time ago about the matter of
Diversity and how it all really works.

The Bell System and Diversity Date: 7/11/01 5:58 PM

Something I have seen not discussed much so far is the radical and
pioneering jump that even someone from the Airborne at Fort Bragg wouldn't
dare in the Bell System adopting one of the most aggressive and successful
diversity programs in corporate history, including the absolute intolerance
of discrimination against women, people of color, and because of sexual
orientation, the handicapped, or anything else you can imagine.

Apple was among the first, but try the same thing with a corporation
employing nearly 300,000 people from all walks of life. It's a lot easier
turning a canoe than an aircraft carrier.

When I first read all this in my pile of paperwork my naive young thoughts
were "Well, if you can do the job, you can work here, and you have the same
rights as anyone else, and if anybody messes with you, you have means of

And then Bell/AT&T got really aggressive about it, placing women in craft
shops doing line work and men into Operator Services / TSPS/ NNI and of
course there was an uproar.

But in the passing years, women doing installs, men on OSPS, people of
color, Veterans with a problem or two (like PTSD etc) or oh, missing both
legs, the blind, the deaf, the retarded/learning disabled, people born in
another country, gay people, have largely become accepted as a part of life
in the Bell System, and have been treated decently and with respect.

This is something Bell Labs won't ever get a patent number on, and Western
Electric will never have a COMCODE for.

But it is something to be proud of, that since we were so much a part of
America's life, we made America part of us.


"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message



Feb 26, 2002, 11:52:16 PM2/26/02
>Grabbed the DBAs by the throat, shoved them in a conference room, and said
>"If you EVER treat ANYONE on staff like you did this woman I've worked with,
>known, and respected for 3 years, you will be so out of here that if I can't
>find a door handy, you will go out the nearest window. And I don't care what
>floor we're on at the time. This is AT&T, and man, woman, race, being
>handicapped, sexual preference or identity, age or youth, everyone is
>treated with respect and courtesy. That's how we do things here, we find it
>works out pretty well. This is your first and last warning.."

All I can say RSH.... I wish there were more like you in the world buddy...



Mar 5, 2002, 9:09:32 AM3/5/02
EJ, I think you are racist. I worked in Atlanta for 3 months and lived in one
of the best areas - Dunnywoody or something like that, and I saw all those
fenced gates and spoke with the local police to find out what was the local
crime rate for my zip code and all those things. Atlanta was one of the worst
experiences that I've ever had because a majority of the population (greater
than any other American city) there just lacked compassion towards others.

I guess your views and opinions are just a product of that community. Go work
as a voluntary in your community but also help somebody that doesn't belong
to your ethnical and social group. You will be the winner. Racism hurts us all.

Money is never a true driving force, but rather a means to reach your goal.

"EJ" <rod...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:a5gnav$ka1$2...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...

J Alex

Mar 5, 2002, 2:24:01 PM3/5/02
Well, I've lived in Atlanta and liked it, except for terrible traffic. I
found that, like every other American city I've lived in and visited, in
Atlanta if you're nice to people, they're nice to you. If you go in with a
chip on your shoulder, people can read that and respond accordingly.

Your advice to volunteer is great, but I suspect that you never gave your
time or money to local Atlanta charities or you wouldn't have that attitude

"Jivan" <ji...@relational.ca> wrote in message


Mar 6, 2002, 9:00:20 AM3/6/02
Well, volunteer work is something you do and don't tell. You do
for your own improvement, in the first place.

About Atlanta, J Alex, the fenced gates with cameras are there, that's
not my imagination. The crime rate is there, with a terrible unbalance
when it comes to the proportion of Afro-Americans that are in jail. When
you go to restaurants, the only groups of people that have both
Caucasians and Afro-Americans are groups of people coming
from work and only at the lunch time or early evening. That's not my
imagination either, I actually did statistics of my own about this fact.
You must have gone to shopping centers there... How many
mixed race groups of teenagers did you see?

And there are all these weird laws... A group of 4 or more people
walking on the sidewalk can not take all the extension of the
sidewalk (the sidewalk block bylaw). In the shopping centers,
you just don't see tables with many seats together on the fast
food chains and many shopping centers have security that will
intervene if there are big group of people walking together on
the shopping. But I've never saw any intervention on a Caucasian
group. Also, if you actually lived there, how can you ignore the
illegal Mexican population that accounts for over a million.
They are everywhere and they don't eat air! They all have legal
employers that exploit their cheap work. And then there is the
Olympic Games example where several Athletes from all over
the world were late to their respective competitions and was not
because of traffic but rather for unpunctual transportation. Please,
don't forget that most of the work in Olympic competition is
voluntary. Atlanta Games were profitable but regrettably
disorganized. But what really got my attention were the regular
talks I had with co-workers about racism, some of them Afro-
Americans. They told me they were afraid to visit relatives in
other parts of Georgia because they were afraid they may
"not make it". They all had stories to tell and very strong reasons
not to go.

"Trials never end, of course. Unhappiness and misfortune are
bound to occur as long as people live, but there is a feeling now,
that was not here before, and is not just on the surface of things,
but penetrates all the way through: We've won it. It's going to get
better now. You can sort of tell these things."

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig

"J Alex" <jalexa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:lX8h8.684$Dl4.2...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...


Mar 7, 2002, 1:53:16 AM3/7/02
I bet this will be one of those threads that will live for months.


Mar 7, 2002, 9:43:12 AM3/7/02
I think that resume INFLATION is generally recognized and accepted as a norm,
at least in the US., e.g. resumes are about 20% better than the person the
represent. If it isn't, then the candidate has put themself at a competitive
disadvantage, since prospective employers habitually derate the resume by ~1/1.2

Not that I'm condoning, endorsing, or recommending this, just relaying what I've
picked up over time as both interviewer and interviewee.



Mar 8, 2002, 12:09:22 PM3/8/02
A resume, at least in the U.S. is a marketing document not an autobiography. It is
intended to sell the candidate for the job.

To apply for a job as an Oracle developer and to list years of unrelated experience
is only going to make the job of a screener more difficult and likely end up in a
perfectly qualified candidate being ignored.

By the same token, understating one's experience will hardly get you in for an

My advice is to market what you can do ... not just what you have done.

But one must stop short of outright creative prevarication.

Daniel Morgan


Nov 7, 2013, 1:22:01 AM11/7/13
I wish all Indian consulting companies die out for their frauds.
Everyone who had a job from them should be send back to India
without the possibility to entry this county again.
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