XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
Mark Scranton (Xtivia Inc.)
lately. Good news is that these customers are ALL considering moving
their XPS environments to IDS (along with doing POC's against other
products). Some of the clients have relatively small XPS environments,
so IDS in most cases will work fine.
Rumor also has it that even though it was stated awhile back that IBM
would not make anymore enhancements to XPS, a German bank wanted the
"multiple fragments in a single dbspace" feature that came out in IDS
10 to be ported to XPS, and in fact, paid for the port. I have no idea
IF this new port will be 8.5.2 or what, but this approach was
something that was done at Informix back in the day as well (having a
customer pay for a port they want).
So I encourage those with XPS in house, or those working with clients
that fit that description, to strongly consider IDS for a move if they
are considering one. There are a few things to consider though first -
I'm not saying it just as easy as moving to IDS and all is well. There
are functionalities and internals that need to be considered in most
cases.
IF you want more details, please contact me directly at
mark.s...@xtivia.com. Would be glad to answer any questions.
Thanks -
Mark Scranton
Xtivia Inc.
www.markscranton.com
Fernando Nunes
I would love to see someone "pay" the other way... Puting more XPS features
into IDS :)
--
Fernando Nunes
Portugal
http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
InDeep
If you can't download XPS and play with it, what's the point? That if
you were one of the handful of what 2 or 3 customers that are actually
using XPS that you can get the upgrade? Sorry to rain cynicism on your
parade, it's all nice to hear, but doesn't amount to much of anything
other than nice news.
And why would you downshift from XPS to an OLTP engine if the whole
point to XPS was to offer features you can't do with IDS, such as real
database clustering. FWIW I actually was an XPS DBA, so I have a bit
of experience with the product, probably one of a handful of people on
the entire planet that actually used it hands-on as a customer. Another
great product that nobody knows about.
Mark Scranton (Xtivia Inc.) wrote:
Ian Michael Gumby
> From: ind...@indeep.com
> Subject: Re: XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:52:41 -0700
> To: inform...@iiug.org
>
> Ok, and so what is the point?
>
> If you can't download XPS and play with it, what's the point? That if
> you were one of the handful of what 2 or 3 customers that are actually
> using XPS that you can get the upgrade? Sorry to rain cynicism on your
> parade, it's all nice to hear, but doesn't amount to much of anything
> other than nice news.
You can always join the IBM partner club. But you have to *pay* to *play*.
But the better thing to do is to redesign the XPS technology as you add it to IDS.
Things have changed since XPS was written.
There are other conceptual models that you could use to implement a shared nothing parallelized environment.
(Think cloud/grid conceptulalization.)
But that's something I'm not going to discuss here. ;-)
Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows®. Game with Windows
Sherlock Holems
>FWIW I actually was an XPS DBA
So was Tim Schaefer from Florida.
InDeep
I'm not talking about ephemeral ethereal nonsense, I'm talking about
getting these products into the hands of people that will actually
set them up, and possibly deploy them. These people don't want to have
to pay to play, in fact they should be paid to play.
Until IBM seeds the IDS market ( not ceded which they already accomplished )
with real products and attractive offers to get involved with IDS ( and not
from the goddam IIUG ) this is a completely academic discussion.
Developers don't care about nonsense, they want something that can meet
their needs, and has the market footing that says "This product is not
going away, and serious companies are using it and market momentum proves
this is not going to be a waste of my time to learn and invest my career
in, and there is evidence of a job market because more and more companies
are using it and saying its a good thing to do". Until you have put up
the investment as a company ( IBM ) in the market to build out the foundation
and footing, IDS will stay a niche product very few people will ever hear
about or care about. My gripe is that it doesn't need to stay this way
and that IDS has every attribute to compete in a wider, broader market.
IBM has not shown that they have anyone competent to get IDS marketed to
the developer community, other than gifting a crippled version out to the
IIUG. This is not marketing, it's just catering to an existing base.
Informix :: The Database With Invisibility Built In
Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
>
>
> > From: ind...@indeep.com
> > Subject: Re: XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
> > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:52:41 -0700
> > To: inform...@iiug.org
> >
> > Ok, and so what is the point?
> >
> > If you can't download XPS and play with it, what's the point? That if
> > you were one of the handful of what 2 or 3 customers that are actually
> > using XPS that you can get the upgrade? Sorry to rain cynicism on your
> > parade, it's all nice to hear, but doesn't amount to much of anything
> > other than nice news.
> Sigh.
>
> You can always join the IBM partner club. But you have to *pay* to *play*.
>
> But the better thing to do is to redesign the XPS technology as you add
> it to IDS.
> Things have changed since XPS was written.
> There are other conceptual models that you could use to implement a
> shared nothing parallelized environment.
> (Think cloud/grid conceptulalization.)
>
> But that's something I'm not going to discuss here. ;-)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with
> Windows®. Game with Windows
InDeep
nothing, and waste every opportunity to say absolutely nothing relevant
to the discussion. You went to the trouble to post, so that you could
fluff your feathers about nothing. Why don't you prove me wrong and
actually ADD to the discussion? WTF do you know about IDS? Do you use
it? I think you're just a nothing nobody with nothing to say, and don't
even use IDS or know anything about it. You're just a big NOTHING.
Mark Scranton (Xtivia Inc.)
> Mark Scranton (Xtivia Inc.) wrote:
>
>
>
> > As I had mentioned, I've been doing a number of XPS assignments
> > lately. Good news is that these customers are ALL considering moving
> > their XPS environments to IDS (along with doing POC's against other
> > products). Some of the clients have relatively small XPS environments,
> > so IDS in most cases will work fine.
>
> > Rumor also has it that even though it was stated awhile back that IBM
> > would not make anymore enhancements to XPS, a German bank wanted the
> > "multiple fragments in a single dbspace" feature that came out in IDS
> > 10 to be ported to XPS, and in fact, paid for the port. I have no idea
> > IF this new port will be 8.5.2 or what, but this approach was
> > something that was done at Informix back in the day as well (having a
> > customer pay for a port they want).
>
> > So I encourage those with XPS in house, or those working with clients
> > that fit that description, to strongly consider IDS for a move if they
> > are considering one. There are a few things to consider though first -
> > I'm not saying it just as easy as moving to IDS and all is well. There
> > are functionalities and internals that need to be considered in most
> > cases.
>
> > IF you want more details, please contact me directly at
>
> > Thanks -
> > Mark Scranton
> > Xtivia Inc.
> >www.markscranton.com
>
> I would love to see someone "pay" the other way... Puting more XPS features
> into IDS :)
>
> --
> Fernando Nunes
> Portugal
>
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
Many of the XPS features have been, or are being ported to IDS. There
are a couple that a client in PHX is waiting on (about 32TB of data
and growing) and they'll move to IDS. There are also 2 other XPS
clients that are very large w/ XPS as well. The others I've worked
with over the last month are in Chicago and Salt Lake City.
Sherlock Holmes
whining, what else has been your achievement. Show one post of yours
in this forum wherein you actually gave some technical advice to
others about informix.
You don't even work with Informix products any more. So what brings you here.
I have never seen any technical person spending so much time on a product
newsgroup which he does not even use.
You and that other idiot Ian Michael Gumby - you both know how to
use email, right?? Why don't you give blow jobs to each other
in emails, sparing us of the infinite boredom of reading worthless
posts of yours.
spli...@ymail.com
Finally someone who say it like it is. It was very well stated -
anyone else agree? Come on - there has be more who feel this way about
useless contributors Gumball and InDeep. My wonder is "do Gumbi and
InDeep go to the same therapist? (Perhaps the same as Gumbi wife)?" If
so, they need better insurance so they get higher price therapy.
Come on writers - perhaps if all chime in, these two love-birds will
go far, far away, together, forever. Then they can "stupid each other
to death" between posing like they have any value in knowledge of
anything.
Splintter
InDeep
1) you are the usenet police,
2) you have any right to judge me or anyone else,
3) you have contributed anything, technical or otherwise to this forum.
4) that this was a technical-only forum.
5) that I'm a troll.
I do continue to work with Informix products, and interestingly enough,
tools I wrote for IDS 15 years ago still work. I did not see your useless
lump of shit name mentioned anywhere at IIUG, and for what its worth the
last time I was a IIUG director I was nominated unanimously for the
position, so please fuck off and die. My interest in Informix is still
as high as it ever was, hoping against hope that the useless fucks at IBM
will get off their asses and do something meaningful with the marketing.
Please, enlighten me with your contributions to the discussion Ravi.
Otherwise fuck off and die.
spli...@ymail.com
Wow - InDeep can judge anyone he like, but nobody judge him (according
to this post, item #2 in his rant to Ravi). Is there special license
for applying double-standard? I should get one!
InDeep is so busy searching for powerful word like "fuck off", he not
even realize how ridiculous his double-standard is hanging out there.
And you nominated to IIUG board? Why would that be surprise to us -
look in Wiki under "double-standard", and you find picture of
president.
Made me giggle -
Splintter
InDeep
Sphincter while you and Ravi find sport in attacking me or Gumbi, you
miss, like so many of your ilk, to focus your frustration at IBM, who
are the real problem for IDS.
Excuse me now, I have to get back to my Oracle backups and responsibilities.
spli...@ymail.com
InDepth -
Funny - you attack Ravi first. You can judge, but nobody else can.
Tell me - why you can judge others, but demand that others not judge
you? Can you answer one simple question brought on by your own
contradiction? Would love to hear answer. Without a mention of IBM,
your boyfriend, or IDS. Again - simple question for you of incredible
intelligence.
Amaze us -
Splintter
Sherlock Holmes
look who is talking. How many times you have abused
IBM and IBM employees. I wonder whether you have the
balls to say that on someone's face.
>last time I was a IIUG director I was nominated unanimously for the
>position, so please fuck off and die.
yes, the news is there http://www.miug.com/previous/1998/news0698.html
Tim, that was ten years ago. No one denies that you were great
to informix community at one time. I would be the last person
to do so. But for the last many years, you have lost that respect
by your incessant nonsense. You are posting only shit now, which
except for looney bins like IMG is deemed worthless by the rest.
>My interest in Informix is still
>as high as it ever was, hoping against hope that the useless fucks at IBM
>will get off their asses and do something meaningful with the marketing.
and you think your way of engaging IBM (posting as an anonymous runt every 3
months with a new nick) is going to work. if yes, then you are a bigger idiot
than you have presented yourself so far.
spli...@ymail.com
> >2) you have any right to judge me or anyone else,
>
> look who is talking. How many times you have abused
> IBM and IBM employees. I wonder whether you have the
> balls to say that on someone's face.
>
> >last time I was a IIUG director I was nominated unanimously for the
> >position, so please fuck off and die.
>
>
> Tim, that was ten years ago. No one denies that you were great
> to informix community at one time. I would be the last person
> to do so. But for the last many years, you have lost that respect
> by your incessant nonsense. You are posting only shit now, which
> except for looney bins like IMG is deemed worthless by the rest.
>
> >My interest in Informix is still
> >as high as it ever was, hoping against hope that the useless fucks at IBM
> >will get off their asses and do something meaningful with the marketing.
>
> and you think your way of engaging IBM (posting as an anonymous runt every 3
> months with a new nick) is going to work. if yes, then you are a bigger idiot
> than you have presented yourself so far.
I'm excited. NOW I know how to get elected unanimously to IIUG Board
thanks InGumbyDeep - use great communication skill like "fuck off and
die!". With all respect Ravi, if this is example of InGumbyDeep
intellect, them he NEVER a true Informix person.
Splintter-Speaks-Only-Twuth
InDeep
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
>> 2) you have any right to judge me or anyone else,
>
> look who is talking. How many times you have abused
> IBM and IBM employees. I wonder whether you have the
> balls to say that on someone's face.
>
It'll be easy if I aim correctly.
>> last time I was a IIUG director I was nominated unanimously for the
>> position, so please fuck off and die.
>
> yes, the news is there http://www.miug.com/previous/1998/news0698.html
>
> Tim, that was ten years ago. No one denies that you were great
> to informix community at one time. I would be the last person
> to do so. But for the last many years, you have lost that respect
> by your incessant nonsense. You are posting only shit now, which
> except for looney bins like IMG is deemed worthless by the rest.
>
Ravi,
10 years have indeed gone by, and good that I moved away from Informix
for work, otherwise I'd have starved to death. Before you think that
I am the only one with my opinions, you should educate yourself before
speaking. In your own esteemed opinion you are entitled to say whatever
you like, just as I too am entitled to do. Sorry that you don't like
my opinions, but I'll continue to direct my statements directly to IBM
and not towards anyone unless they want to attack me personally. IBM
has a long way to go before they can claim any high ground with Informix.
They talk a good story but the market doesn't show much for IDS. I can
only conclude that complete idiots or retards are in charge of Informix
marketing. They have to be complete dolts, there isn't any other way
to go with it.
After you get done bashing me, why not ask some pointed questions at IBM
and see how far you get. See if whispering sweet nothings to IBM will
score you any more points that my approach. At least IBM knows that I'm
market-driven and not trying to score points with them, to the point that
I don't want anything from IBM other than simply getting IDS out there
into the mainstream market. I don't want or need a job from Informix like
you or others, I don't want the political benefits, just get the fucking
product out there. That's why I post anon, and hope that in the future
you fucking jackass that you will respect that. Excuse me now, I have
to get back to work, and thankful that I don't depend on IBM or Informix
to feed my family. 10 years later since Informix-on-Linux, and what do
we have to show for it? Not much. Do I care? Hell yes, and I expect
better out of IBM and the people that have kept IDS from succeeding. If
you don't get that then you are a bigger idiot than you ever thought I
was.
Sherlock Holmes
I wrote:-
"and you think your way of engaging IBM (posting as an anonymous runt every 3
months with a new nick) is going to work. if yes, then you are a bigger idiot
than you have presented yourself so far."
Does it ring a bell?? Do you remember the time
IBM told you to shut up if you want to see an
Informix port to Linux. Looks like you never
learned the lesson.
I am deleting the rest of your insanity plea.
It is not something which you have not already
told 1000 times before.
it is sad state of cdi where the top 3 posters
this month are top 3 trolls.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.databases.informix/about
Ian Michael Gumby
> Cloud computing is what it is, all gas.
>
> I'm not talking about ephemeral ethereal nonsense, I'm talking about
> getting these products into the hands of people that will actually
> set them up, and possibly deploy them. These people don't want to have
> to pay to play, in fact they should be paid to play.
>
Cloud computing is real. Real enough that Dell tried to trademark the
name. Real enough that you have major players sinking a lot of money
in to it.
Oh and lets give some credit to McNealy and Ellison who talked about
the precursor of "cloud" with their "The Net is the Computer".
There's a bit more to this, but to say that its "nonsense" shows that
you're not paying attention to the world around you.
And the issue of not wanting to pay to play, that's a personal choice
and its again unrealistic. You grok java, right? And if you want to be
certified you have to shell out what $200-$300 for the prometric
tests? And then you have to take the next series to show you're not
just a certified developer but a certified architect. So even "free"
has some sort of price tag. (Not considering opportunity costs ...)
> Until IBM seeds the IDS market ( not ceded which they already accomplished )
> with real products and attractive offers to get involved with IDS ( and not
> from the goddam IIUG ) this is a completely academic discussion.
>
Sigh.
You keep harping on the same topic. Unfortunately you're not going to
win any argument talking about "seeding" the market.
What you need to do is to show a community or niche that IDS offers a
competitive advantage. You do this and you will generate sales.
That's no secret. Its figuring out which niche to chase and how to
gain interest that is the difficult part. And of course how IDS will
have a competitive advantage.
Trying to go toe to toe with Oracle will be suicide.
You keep trying to "market to the developer community". You don't. The
"development community" isn't the ones writing the checks. ;-)
-G
Ian Michael Gumby
> You and that other idiot Ian Michael Gumby - you both know how to
> use email, right?? Why don't you give blow jobs to each other
> in emails, sparing us of the infinite boredom of reading worthless
> posts of yours.
>
Now that's funny. A sockpuppet who couldn't get their own named
spelled right the first time.
For someone who talks the talk but can't walk the walk, you do know
what a killfile is right?
Now go run along to momma.
BTW, I asked splintard if he knew anything about SIAC. Seems he
doesn't. Why don't you go and figure out what I'm talking about. Then
get back to me junior.
-G
Ian Michael Gumby
> Please, enlighten me with your contributions to the discussion Ravi.
>
> Otherwise fuck off and die.
Timmy, relax.
These are sock puppets of idiots who don't know jack. It would be
interesting if they in fact did work for IBM. It would further prove
that hydrocephali doesn't mean you can't get a job beyond biting heads
off chickens in a side show.
Lets face it. How many people forgot that Informix blew their chance
to be first to port to Linux.
(Oh yeah, no one is going to use an operating system like that for a
server.) ;-)
10 years ago.
So what does that tell you?
Ian Michael Gumby
> >2) you have any right to judge me or anyone else,
>
> look who is talking. How many times you have abused
> IBM and IBM employees. I wonder whether you have the
> balls to say that on someone's face.
>
Ravi?
I guess that'll do.
Hey dude! Come to Chicago and I'll tell it to your face.
I'll bust the chops of any IBMer who's a slacker or a total idiot.
I've done it before and I'll do it again.
Why don't you go and do that little homework assignment I asked about.
I asked another IBMer and he found some info in about 15 mins. But
that didn't tell the whole story. ;-)
Go on, check out SIAC.
Ian Michael Gumby
NEVER a true Informix person.
>
> Splintter-Speaks-Only-Twuth
That's funny. Weren't you the idiot who created this alias by saying
you were a recent Oracle to Informix convert? Then claiming to be an
IBMer?
Dude! If you can't get your facts straight why should I or Timmy
bother playing with you.
So go figure out why I keep mentioning SIAC. Ask your best buds who
think that they're in the know.
Then go talk to Deb Landers.I'd tell you to ask Cathy Priest but she
retired.
Ian Michael Gumby
>
> it is sad state of cdi where the top 3 posters
> this month are top 3 trolls.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.databases.informix/aboutT
That's funny. Two of the top 3 posters know a hell a lot more that you
do.
Troll.
Jack Parker
j.
Sane ego te vocavi. Forsitan capedictum tuum desit.
-----Original Message-----
From: informix-l...@iiug.org
[mailto:informix-l...@iiug.org]On Behalf Of Ian Michael Gumby
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:08 PM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
Troll.
_______________________________________________
Informix-list mailing list
Inform...@iiug.org
http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
InDeep
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
> Hey, you missed the real point
>
> I wrote:-
>
> "and you think your way of engaging IBM (posting as an anonymous runt every 3
> months with a new nick) is going to work. if yes, then you are a bigger idiot
> than you have presented yourself so far."
>
> Does it ring a bell?? Do you remember the time
> IBM told you to shut up if you want to see an
> Informix port to Linux. Looks like you never
> learned the lesson.
>
IBM was not involved in the port to Linux, at least not to my
knowledge. There may have been some background activity, but
nobody from IBM ever contacted me and told me to be quiet about
Informix => Linux. I don't think even IBM was into Linux back
in '97-98, if they were, it was all on the down low. The only
people I ever dealt with were at Informix, and only on a couple
of occasions, nothing beyond a short note. IBM wasn't even in
the picture then. I know the IIUG at the time was really into
corporate sychophantry on a grand scale, and didn't like anyone
to speak up without their blessing, but even they had trouble
keeping the lid on.
But the real question is...
Why do you even care? Are you some kind of IBM apologist? IBM
has all these paid people to stand up for them, and you do it for
free, very strange behavior. I have seen this behavior over the
past few years, and just baffled how people want to suck up to
vendors to get something out of them. As if their lives could
not be complete without some kind of corporate recognition, or
because they value their miserable gray careers at IBM so much they
are just not strong enough to stand up and either say what should
be done, or do and act on doing the right things. Some kind of
group paralysis or something. Just baffling. And then you come
swinging a machete through the conversation trying to derail people
on the real issues, it's just wierd how you could be so retarded
and foggy headed. Really strange.
> it is sad state of cdi where the top 3 posters
> this month are top 3 trolls.
>
Even sadder that you saw fit to attack the wrong problem, and
the wrong issues, without the high moral ground. You want to be
proven right, and I want to be proven wrong, and friends will never
change.
-ID-
InDeep
Mikey,
10 years is a long time by a lot of standards. In internet time it is
several generations of technological transformation across the planet
and several significant political evolutions, not to mention all the
other stuff that has happened over the past 10 years. It is astonishing
that 10 years later we still see Informix floundering needlessly, and
still see people getting caught up in attacking the few people who want
to see the product succeed. Most of the past 10 years have seen little
if any Informix in the market, only as as an occasional footnote in a
conversation, never seen in circles it should occupy because its caretakers
have no clue what to do with it. 10 long years, and somehow my expectations
are still too high. 10 long years and somehow Oracles' growth has taken
off using the very principles that we talk about here. If Informix were
really allowed to succeed, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
We'll talk again in 10 years, and I'll be retired off of a better business
career without IBM or Informix. Informix never had a chance no matter how
good it was. In 10 years anything Informix had going for it will not matter
anymore anyway. C'est la vie. The dolts will have long left IBM and there
won't be any more said about it, other than old men knowing about a really
missed opportunity. And that will be that.
-
Sherlock Holmes
>> Does it ring a bell?? Do you remember the time
>> IBM told you to shut up if you want to see an
>> Informix port to Linux. Looks like you never
>> learned the lesson.
>>
>
>IBM was not involved in the port to Linux, at least not to my
sorry my bad. It was Informix Corp which told you.
>Why do you even care? Are you some kind of IBM apologist?
well it's my turn to ask. Why do you care when you don't even
work with informix. Excuse me, are you under any medication for bi-polar
syndrome. On one side you rant about the imminent demise
of informix, on the other you write that informix will never
improve and you were glad to get out of it. Man, u need to see a Shrink NOW.
Obnoxio The Clown
Ian Michael Gumby
> From: ind...@indeep.com
> We'll talk again in 10 years, and I'll be retired off of a better business
> career without IBM or Informix. Informix never had a chance no matter how
> good it was. In 10 years anything Informix had going for it will not matter
> anymore anyway. C'est la vie. The dolts will have long left IBM and there
> won't be any more said about it, other than old men knowing about a really
> missed opportunity. And that will be that.
>
I should say fortunately, IDS will be around. Not in any real part to the dolts who are in Product Management or Product Marketing at this time.
All I can say is that when I was ready to fly out and make a presentation to show them the numbers, they were too busy.
IMHO, they bought in to the idea that a database is a commodity. Probably true, just like a car is a commodity. Yet see how many different brands and models exist for such a homogenized commodity.
Anyways, the latest round of sock puppets don't know jack.
I did more to help IBM break into some white space in Brooklyn, while commuting between Chicago and S.C.
I wonder if Splinter is Bernie Spang. You know, the IBM spokesperson who will only give IDS a "backhanded" complement and praise DB2 at the same time. He must have been one of Janet's hand picked "boyz" because from an IDS person' s view, he's put hit foot in his mouth far too many times.
You should see his quotes about IBM's geodetic stuff. Priceless.
-G
InDeep
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
> In article <5Aqtk.9741$TH1....@fe62.usenetserver.com>, InDeep says...
>
>>> Does it ring a bell?? Do you remember the time
>>> IBM told you to shut up if you want to see an
>>> Informix port to Linux. Looks like you never
>>> learned the lesson.
>>>
>> IBM was not involved in the port to Linux, at least not to my
>
> sorry my bad. It was Informix Corp which told you.
>
Informix didn't tell me to do anything. You need to get your
facts straight. Informix was pretty much filled with a lot of
arrogant people that had no clue about Linux and how it was
going to change everything. They hardly communicated with me
at all. It was the goddam IIUG that had issues with me back
then, and wanted to make sure _they_ were going to get credit
for the whole push. In fact if I hadn't showed up at the conference
in Seattle the IIUG would have done everything to make sure that I
had never been mentioned and that their chief suckups would have
been awarded all manor of congratulatory cheer for doing nothing.
So before you go off with your spew you really should get your
facts straight. You were still in diapers back then so I hardly
get your indignation.
>> Why do you even care? Are you some kind of IBM apologist?
>
> well it's my turn to ask. Why do you care when you don't even
> work with informix. Excuse me, are you under any medication for bi-polar
> syndrome. On one side you rant about the imminent demise
> of informix, on the other you write that informix will never
> improve and you were glad to get out of it. Man, u need to see a Shrink NOW.
>
First of all how do you know what I work with? Who the fuck are you
to decide whether or not I'm 'worthy' to talk here? Who the fuck are YOU
to tell me what to do? It's not like you're some kind of contributor here
with anything. You post occasionally with a line or two of badly constructed
thought and think that you rank as some kind of authority. While you were
in diapers back in your home country I was already working with Informix,
HERE IN THE US, so I really don't think I need to justify fuck to you.
I don't see any contribution of code or tools from you, or any discussion
at all from you other than attacking me. So...
If you don't like what I say, IGNORE ME you stupid fuck.
I'm done with this thread, and you Ravi.
InDeep
Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
>
> I wonder if Splinter is Bernie Spang. You know, the IBM spokesperson who
> will only give IDS a "backhanded" complement and praise DB2 at the same
> time. He must have been one of Janet's hand picked "boyz" because from
> an IDS person' s view, he's put hit foot in his mouth far too many times.
>
> You should see his quotes about IBM's geodetic stuff. Priceless.
>
> -G
>
There will be more lost opportunities for IDS, while competing products
move forward. MySQL's latest offering has partitioning, stored procs,
and a lot of the up-and-coming developers are already knee deep in it.
Last year I did a brief consulting gig with a dot-com that was already
in production with an alpha release of MySQL, with hundreds of stored
procs, and well into using everything the product has. So I think that
we will continue to see the new generation of developers moving along
with products like MySQL, which has embraced web 2.0 and the whole next
gen thing with PHP & Python, and even Tomcat, lots of java coming up too.
IDS could be a part of that but unfortunately IBM doesn't have a clue
about where things are headed. They are too busy working on building
their offshore empire and bilking fortune 100's out of money, so I don't
think they will have the bandwidth to really make anything happen. This
is why the dolts in Informix marketing are getting away with non-performance,
nobody is really paying any attention to what they aren't doing. So say
good-bye to IDS, it will continue to languish and occasionally get sold
to somebody and make a whimper here and there but it's really not going
anywhere. Their idea of pushing down from the top is really un-earned,
as if they can sell IDS like Oracle. Informix needs to start from scratch
and get the foundation build with developers, not just VARs. When this
happens Informix will be back on the map. Without a mainstream developer
community IDS will never go anywhere. And now, it's basically a new
product deja vu all over again.
Sherlock Holmes
>First of all how do you know what I work with?
What??? You are the one to mention it all the time that you
don't work with Informix and these days you are working with
oracle which has given you your best earning potential. You
are the one to say that for the last many years Perl, PHP,
MySQL, DB2 has helped you pay your bills.
Anyhow I am also done with this thread. Apology if you are
offended.
Ian Michael Gumby
> To: inform...@iiug.org
>
>
>
> Sherlock Holmes wrote:
> > In article <5Aqtk.9741$TH1....@fe62.usenetserver.com>, InDeep says...
> >
> > sorry my bad. It was Informix Corp which told you.
> >
>
I guess Sherlock was there so he knows all.
Yeah, like he's met Dexmier or Finnociao and knows the story.
Or I bet he knew Fraiman, Mentz from Marketing.
Or heck! How about Lloyd as in house counsel.
I'll take an educated guess that he claimed I was "you screwed the pooch dex" and then forced PG to sue to get his identity.
(But that was on a stock chat board.) But dealing with the SEC was another story. ;-)
> Informix didn't tell me to do anything. You need to get your
> facts straight. Informix was pretty much filled with a lot of
> arrogant people that had no clue about Linux and how it was
> going to change everything. They hardly communicated with me
> at all. It was the goddam IIUG that had issues with me back
> then, and wanted to make sure _they_ were going to get credit
> for the whole push. In fact if I hadn't showed up at the conference
> in Seattle the IIUG would have done everything to make sure that I
> had never been mentioned and that their chief suckups would have
> been awarded all manor of congratulatory cheer for doing nothing.
> So before you go off with your spew you really should get your
> facts straight. You were still in diapers back then so I hardly
> get your indignation.
>
You shouldn't lose your cool over the sock puppets. Head down to the beach and enjoy the weekend.
da...@smooth1.co.uk
> Ok, and so what is the point?
>
> If you can't download XPS and play with it, what's the point? That if
> you were one of the handful of what 2 or 3 customers that are actually
> using XPS that you can get the upgrade? Sorry to rain cynicism on your
> parade, it's all nice to hear, but doesn't amount to much of anything
> other than nice news.
>
> And why would you downshift from XPS to an OLTP engine if the whole
> point to XPS was to offer features you can't do with IDS, such as real
> database clustering. FWIW I actually was an XPS DBA, so I have a bit
> of experience with the product, probably one of a handful of people on
> the entire planet that actually used it hands-on as a customer. Another
> great product that nobody knows about.
>
> Mark Scranton (Xtivia Inc.) wrote:
>
>
>
> > As I had mentioned, I've been doing a number of XPS assignments
> > lately. Good news is that these customers are ALL considering moving
> > their XPS environments to IDS (along with doing POC's against other
> > products). Some of the clients have relatively small XPS environments,
> > so IDS in most cases will work fine.
>
> > Rumor also has it that even though it was stated awhile back that IBM
> > would not make anymore enhancements to XPS, a German bank wanted the
> > "multiple fragments in a single dbspace" feature that came out in IDS
> > 10 to be ported to XPS, and in fact, paid for the port. I have no idea
> > IF this new port will be 8.5.2 or what, but this approach was
> > something that was done at Informix back in the day as well (having a
> > customer pay for a port they want).
>
> > So I encourage those with XPS in house, or those working with clients
> > that fit that description, to strongly consider IDS for a move if they
> > are considering one. There are a few things to consider though first -
> > I'm not saying it just as easy as moving to IDS and all is well. There
> > are functionalities and internals that need to be considered in most
> > cases.
>
> > IF you want more details, please contact me directly at
> > mark.scran...@xtivia.com. Would be glad to answer any questions.
>
> > Thanks -
> > Mark Scranton
> > Xtivia Inc.
> >www.markscranton.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Also where is the IDS equivalent of DB2 DPF?
Oracle has RAC
DB2 has DPF
Sybase now has Cluster Edition
and Informix has? This is why people I know say Informix is not a
contender for serious systems, it cannot deploy a database
aroudn mulitple hosts.
Obnoxio The Clown
> This is why people I know say Informix is not a
> contender for serious systems, it cannot deploy a database
> aroudn mulitple hosts.
Haven't you been paying attention? It can do so, it can do so very
easily and it scales as well.
Unlike RAC.
Andrew Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: <da...@smooth1.co.uk>
Newsgroups: comp.databases.informix
To: <inform...@iiug.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
What about Mach 11?
Multiple updateable Shared Disk Secondarys or Multiple updateable Remote Standalone Secondarys?
I think RSS has an edge over RAC because it does not need to share the same storage subsystem and can provide geographical
redundancy.
Andrew
InDeep
yeah but customers are willing to blow money on RAC, even if it isn't
good because management can't go wrong deploying Oracle. They buy the
application, and the app says it has to go on RAC. It's a win-win for
everyone. IBM needs to have apps like Oracle does, and insist that the
app goes on either DB2 or IDS. It'll never happen because IBM sells too
much hardware for RAC systems, so why hurt their own hardware sales by
diverting people to DB2 or IDS. They can't even get a straight DB2 &
hardware sale done without hurting either the software sale or the hardware
sale in one form or another. Oracle is different because they don't have
to fight against their own hardware sales.
Obnoxio The Clown
Next time I see Sam, I'll tell him to shut down those extraneous
hardware and consulting divisions. They don't generate any money anyway.
And I'll get him to flog off Websphere as well, because that runs more
on Oracle than IDS. And Rational. And Tivoli. And I'll tell him to get
rid of DB2 as well, because it competes with IDS. Then, I'll tell him to
concentrate on the behemoth that's left: Lotus and IDS.
I'm sure he'll listen to me. I'll tell him you sent me.
Serge Rielau
> Oracle has RAC
> DB2 has DPF
Apples and Oranges.
If you want to compare you have to compare RAC to DB2 on a Sysplex
Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 Solutions Development
IBM Toronto Lab
Obnoxio The Clown
> da...@smooth1.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Also where is the IDS equivalent of DB2 DPF?
>>
> That is XPS... or rather it was "Arrowhead"
>
>
>> Oracle has RAC
>> DB2 has DPF
>>
> Apples and Oranges.
> If you want to compare you have to compare RAC to DB2 on a Sysplex
>
How DARE you contradict the all-knowing Gumby? Don't you know that he's
busy developing a paradigm-shifting Unicode geodetic, etc.?
:o)
Serge Rielau
> Serge Rielau wrote:
>> da...@smooth1.co.uk wrote:
>>> Also where is the IDS equivalent of DB2 DPF?
>> That is XPS... or rather it was "Arrowhead"
>>> Oracle has RAC
>>> DB2 has DPF
>> Apples and Oranges.
>> If you want to compare you have to compare RAC to DB2 on a Sysplex
> How DARE you contradict the all-knowing Gumby? Don't you know that he's
> busy developing a paradigm-shifting Unicode geodetic, etc.?
DA Morgan
The decision was not Oracle's it was IBM's.
Oracle went to both IBM and Microsoft and offered them help in making
their databases compatible with the apps. IBM chose to do it with DB2,
thus the new compatibility features, and Microsoft chose to do it with
SQL Server 2008 which they now loudly trumpet as "Certified by Oracle."
IBM makes good business decisions ... for IBM the corporation. That
may or may not translate to a good decision for a specific product.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Serge Rielau
> Oracle went to both IBM and Microsoft and offered them help in making
> their databases compatible with the apps. IBM chose to do it with DB2,
Daniel,
You imply that there is an agreement between Oracle and IBM to make DB2
for LUW compatible with Oracle apps. I lead the team that did the work
and can with certainty say this is incorrect.
Cheers
Serge
Ian Michael Gumby
> What about Mach 11?
>
> Multiple updateable Shared Disk Secondarys or Multiple updateable Remote Standalone Secondarys?
>
> I think RSS has an edge over RAC because it does not need to share the same storage subsystem and can provide geographical
> redundancy.
>
> Andrew
>
Interesting is that part of Express ?
Ian Michael Gumby
wrote:
> > Apples and Oranges.
> > If you want to compare you have to compare RAC to DB2 on a Sysplex
>
> How DARE you contradict the all-knowing Gumby? Don't you know that he's
> busy developing a paradigm-shifting Unicode geodetic, etc.?
>
> :o)
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Obnoxio the Clown
>
> http://obotheclown.blogspot.com
Actually, he makes my point well.
XPS disappeared because it competed with DB2.
As to RAC, I may get a chance to play with it shortly. However... I've
seen machines slow to a crawl because they have two instances of
Oracle (9 and 10). So I'm not impressed with Oracle....
As to Unicode, yeah, it sucks cause I can't read Thai so I don't know
if what I want is working. ;-)
DA Morgan
> DA Morgan wrote:
>> Oracle went to both IBM and Microsoft and offered them help in making
>> their databases compatible with the apps. IBM chose to do it with DB2,
>> thus the new compatibility features..."
> Daniel,
>
> You imply that there is an agreement between Oracle and IBM to make DB2
> for LUW compatible with Oracle apps. I lead the team that did the work
> and can with certainty say this is incorrect.
>
> Cheers
> Serge
Are you saying that a JD Edwards customer must now abandon DB2?
Are you saying that someone wanting to run any Oracle App on DB2
must now go with either Oracle or Microsoft?
That's not what I have heard so please correct any misunderstanding.
DA Morgan
> On Aug 30, 11:41 am, Obnoxio The Clown <obno...@serendipita.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Apples and Oranges.
>>> If you want to compare you have to compare RAC to DB2 on a Sysplex
>> How DARE you contradict the all-knowing Gumby? Don't you know that he's
>> busy developing a paradigm-shifting Unicode geodetic, etc.?
>>
>> :o)
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Obnoxio the Clown
>>
>> http://obotheclown.blogspot.com
>
> Actually, he makes my point well.
> XPS disappeared because it competed with DB2.
>
> As to RAC, I may get a chance to play with it shortly. However... I've
> seen machines slow to a crawl because they have two instances of
> Oracle (9 and 10). So I'm not impressed with Oracle....
You should be directing your ire at the DBA. There is no excuse for
what you described other than either incompetence or not paying
attention.
Obnoxio The Clown
That is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Or are you saying that you
can buy DB2 DPF Express Edition?
--
Bye now,
Obnoxio
http://obotheclown.blogspot.com/
Obnoxio The Clown
DA Morgan said:
> Serge Rielau wrote:
>> DA Morgan wrote:
>>> Oracle went to both IBM and Microsoft and offered them help in making
>>> their databases compatible with the apps. IBM chose to do it with DB2,
>>> thus the new compatibility features..."
>> Daniel,
>>
>> You imply that there is an agreement between Oracle and IBM to make DB2
>> for LUW compatible with Oracle apps. I lead the team that did the work
>> and can with certainty say this is incorrect.
>
>
> Are you saying that someone wanting to run any Oracle App on DB2
> must now go with either Oracle or Microsoft?
>
> That's not what I have heard so please correct any misunderstanding.
Perhaps IBM was making the changes to DB2 to make it easier for Oracle
vendors to port to DB2, you never know.
I hope your students are better served by your Oracle skills than your logic.
Captain Pedantic
news:mailman.1657.12201387...@iiug.org...
Ian Michael Gumby said:
> Interesting is that part of Express ?
That is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Or are you saying that you
can buy DB2 DPF Express Edition?
I wonder if he may be juxtaposing your argument yesterday - "IDS Express is
good and cheap" - with today's argument - "IDS has features that make it
better than RAC" - for mischievous effect ...?
Obnoxio The Clown
OK, you do the pricing and get back to us.
Serge Rielau
> Serge Rielau wrote:
>> DA Morgan wrote:
>>> Oracle went to both IBM and Microsoft and offered them help in making
>>> their databases compatible with the apps. IBM chose to do it with DB2,
>>> thus the new compatibility features..."
>> Daniel,
>>
>> You imply that there is an agreement between Oracle and IBM to make
>> DB2 for LUW compatible with Oracle apps. I lead the team that did the
>> work and can with certainty say this is incorrect.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Serge
>
> Are you saying that a JD Edwards customer must now abandon DB2?
>
> Are you saying that someone wanting to run any Oracle App on DB2
> must now go with either Oracle or Microsoft?
>
> That's not what I have heard so please correct any misunderstanding.
Peoplesoft is and was already compatible with DB2 prior to the acquisition.
Siebel is and was already compatible with DB2 prior to the acquisition.
"Making compatible" implies support for something that wasn't before.
Say for "heritage" Oracle Apps.
We used to have a Peoplesoft team on site in Toronto.
They left the day of the acquisition.
There are no requirements or offers for help from Oracle to make DB2 for
LUW compatible with Oracle apps.
I do talk a lot with ISVs (with a capital "I") though, so it's not that
I'm feeling lonely. :-)
It is those ISVs who have influenced the DB2 9.5 compatibility features,
NOT Oracle.
InDeep
I'll admit to a certain amount of applying some rather 'sweeping' logic
to what I said, but the point is, Oracle as a brand is doing more with
less. They don't sell hardware, and this seems to be helping them
rather than IBM's model of selling software ( poorly ) and hardware. If
I go to Oracle's website, it's all consistent and despite the gargantuan
amount of products, ( who cares if the product is total shyte thats not
the point ) there is actually less clutter than going to IBMs' website.
Maybe IBM should get out of the software business altogether because
they don't seem to be very good at it. They seem to be good at
professional services, and selling humans, taking advantage of
developing countries.
I'm even curious if there is a statistical illustration of IBM's success
before selling a lot of software vs selling almost no software and
selling a lot of hardware. They seem to be mixed up as a company, with
a lot of conflicting products and messages. I'm curious if they will
eventually collapse under their own weight. It's not like their
software is even good, in fact they seemed to get a lot of lift from
Informix, because DB2's GUI was really awful in its earlier releases.
Now as far as consulting services they seem to be able to send the right
message, "We're happy to soak you but there is no guarantee that we will
deliver a single fucking thing. Did you pay your bill yet?" . Kinda
humorous when you think about it because fortune 100's keep paying them,
it's hard to tell which is the bigger fool.
*<8o)
Captain Pedantic
The point being that the sexy Continuous Availability features are only as
purchasable optional extras in a version, Enterprise, where - no two ways
about this - Informix is *already* more expensive than Oracle and DB2 even
before you buy the optional extras!
The pricing of the features is a huge disappointment.
Now that is something that IBM could easily do something about, even just to
put IDS on the same footing price-wise as DB2 ...
Serge Rielau
> It's not like their
> software is even good, in fact they seemed to get a lot of lift from
> Informix, because DB2's GUI was really awful in its earlier releases.
credit where credit is due:
http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/1553341
The boss of the tooling business is Curt Cotner former lead architect of
zOS and reigning CTO of IBM Data Servers.
IBM is elevating the tooling business form a hobby to a division. See
the comments on Oracle support below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIOMiZTzIGk
Obnoxio The Clown
Assuming a single-CPU Intel box again:
IDS Enterprise Edition: $51,500
Oracle EE: $47,500
Twiddly bits for a 4-way cluster:
CAF: $20,000
RAC: $23,000
Licensing total:
IDS: $286,000
Oracle: $282,000
Assumption for the above: Oracle to be fully licensed (EE+RAC) on each
RAC node. I'm sure an ACE Director will be along shortly to tell me if
I'm wrong.
I'm willing to be that you'll save that $4,000 just in installation and
configuration time on IDS vs Oracle. Chuck in Dataguard and there's no
real difference. Chuck in Partitioning and IDS is cheaper. I don't think
a <1.5% list price difference is a particularly "compelling" argument,
especially when you factor in negative scalability. ;o)
Just for shits and giggles, though:
SQL Server EE: $25,000
SQL Server cluster: $0
SQL Server HDR: $0
SQL Server Total: $100,000
Further assuming that a 4-way cluster is even possible in SQL Server, of
course. I have no idea.
Note that I am not saying I agree with the pricing, I'm just saying that
at that level, list price differences aren't really the issue. I'd love
IDS to be able to take the fight to SQL Server on price and my personal
take on this is that EE should include everything.
But, er, hey! What do I know? It's not like I'm sitting here naked and
blogging!
Oh wait, I am!
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/Ely94/FatComputer.jpg
InDeep
Serge Rielau wrote:
> InDeep wrote:
>> It's not like their
>> software is even good, in fact they seemed to get a lot of lift from
>> Informix, because DB2's GUI was really awful in its earlier releases.
> Informix is not the only company IBM has ever bought. So let's place
> credit where credit is due:
> http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/1553341
>
I have yet to stumble into a company using Rational. It must be something IBM uses internally, right? Same for
Clearcase, another behemoth package you'd only find at IBM, along with Websphere, does anybody actually use this shit?
It's soooooo far removed from 99% of the companies IDS should be hitting. So maybe IBM works well with the top fortune
100s with these kinds of softwares, but that means IBM misses most of the rest of the market that Informix is ripe for.
And yet they continue to sell billions of dollars of this crap--which I have yet to see actually being used by 99% of
the companies out there that most of us run into.
> The boss of the tooling business is Curt Cotner former lead architect of
> zOS and reigning CTO of IBM Data Servers.
> IBM is elevating the tooling business form a hobby to a division. See
> the comments on Oracle support below:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIOMiZTzIGk
>
Nice to see the video is related to the Village People and Hooters. :P
Seriously Surge, after seeing more of these kinds of videos I'm convinced more than ever that Informix is never going to
make it. IBM can't figure out how to bolt on one of the other existing products to it and sell it into one of those 1%
companies they make billions off of. Which is surprising, since they've managed to sell pure shyte without too much
difficulty, now IDS comes along and they can't seem to even remember it's something to sell.
Oh by the way, that Ambush character's video explains it all. No wonder! We've got a thick-accent Indian in charge of
IDS! What we need to do is to figure out how to sell it in India! It all makes sense now.. I get it! Those two sexy
guys in the video are going to get IDS in to the hands of millions of US developers....Riiiiiiiight!
I give up! IDS is doomed.
> Cheers
> Serge
Obnoxio The Clown
> I have yet to stumble into a company using Rational. It must be something IBM uses internally, right? Same for
>
That's rubbish. Grady Booch practically *invented* OO programming.
Rational was a very successful tooling business long before IBM bought them.
> Clearcase, another behemoth package you'd only find at IBM, along with Websphere, does anybody actually use this shit?
>
Clearcase, I'm not going to argue with. :o)
But loads of people use Websphere, same as loads of people use Weblogic.
Just because *you* don't ever develop for them, doesn't mean they don't
use it.
> It's soooooo far removed from 99% of the companies IDS should be hitting. So maybe IBM works well with the top fortune
>
I agree.
>
> Nice to see the video is related to the Village People and Hooters. :P
>
I wasn't going to watch it, but now I will. :o)
> Oh by the way, that Ambush character's video explains it all. No wonder! We've got a thick-accent Indian in charge of
> IDS! What we need to do is to figure out how to sell it in India! It all makes sense now.. I get it! Those two sexy
> guys in the video are going to get IDS in to the hands of millions of US developers....Riiiiiiiight!
>
Isn't that racist? I mean, I know lots of people in the UK who have
thick accents, doesn't mean they're incapable, though.
Captain Pedantic
> Captain Pedantic wrote:
>> The point being that the sexy Continuous Availability features are only
>> as purchasable optional extras in a version, Enterprise, where - no two
>> ways about this - Informix is *already* more expensive than Oracle and
>> DB2 even before you buy the optional extras!
>> The pricing of the features is a huge disappointment.
>> Now that is something that IBM could easily do something about, even just
>> to put IDS on the same footing price-wise as DB2 ...
>
> Assuming a single-CPU Intel box again:
>
> IDS Enterprise Edition: $51,500
> Oracle EE: $47,500
Come and live in England!
Here, the cost at today's exchange rates is:
IDS EE: $64,210
Oracle EE: $43,871.91
(Before you dismiss this as exchange-rate aberration, consider that the
pound-dollar conversion rate that would equlaise these prices is 1.46. The
pound has not dipped below 1.6 US dollars this century. This is not a blip
in a cyclical trend. It is policy, pure and simple. IBM absolutely canes
UK, Euro and Australian dollar customers by comparison with those in the US
(and these are the only currencies for which I have studied this in any
depth, it may well be true worldwide), in a way that Oracle evidently
doesn't).
But your premise is fatuous anyway! Who on earth would run IDS EE on a
single-CPU box?!!!! If you're buying Entreprise of either product you're a
serious player, not a one-cpu shop. Hence the US$21,000 differential is
multiplied many times over, disregarding special bids.
> Note that I am not saying I agree with the pricing, I'm just saying that
> at that level, list price differences aren't really the issue.
My guess here, and from the highly technical nature of your previous posts,
is that you do not make your living actually having to sell the product!
Believe me, pricing is a big factor. However, the fact remains that some
customers will pay the price demanded. My hunch is that IBM calculates that
it has more to lose from having to discount licence and mainteannce to the
exitsing customer base than it would gain through increased sales,
particualrly given the much-discussed reluctance it already has to serious
promotion of Informix.
> I'd love IDS to be able to take the fight to SQL Server on price and my
> personal take on this is that EE should include everything.
Believe it!
> But, er, hey! What do I know? It's not like I'm sitting here naked and
> blogging!
Nice!
Obnoxio The Clown
I honestly don't know anything about that.
> But your premise is fatuous anyway! Who on earth would run IDS EE on a
> single-CPU box?!!!! If you're buying Entreprise of either product you're a
> serious player, not a one-cpu shop. Hence the US$21,000 differential is
> multiplied many times over, disregarding special bids.
>
My premise may be fatuous, but I didn't want to get any more complicated
than my original Express pricing model.
>
>> Note that I am not saying I agree with the pricing, I'm just saying that
>> at that level, list price differences aren't really the issue.
>>
>
> My guess here, and from the highly technical nature of your previous posts,
> is that you do not make your living actually having to sell the product!
>
Mercifully not. I just have to use it. :o)
> Believe me, pricing is a big factor. However, the fact remains that some
> customers will pay the price demanded. My hunch is that IBM calculates that
> it has more to lose from having to discount licence and mainteannce to the
> exitsing customer base than it would gain through increased sales,
> particualrly given the much-discussed reluctance it already has to serious
> promotion of Informix.
>
Well, I'm just comparing published list prices. I can't say any more
than that. At published list prices, there is a price difference of less
than 1.5%. There are lots of ways I could have muddied the waters, by
chucking DataGuard and / or Partitioning into the mix, which at
*published list prices* would make Oracle absolutely more expensive.
InDeep
consistent with IBMs' migration to India. So I guess they're trying to
figure out how to get all those Indians up to speed on Informix, and then
make a major assault on the US with Informix. To us unwashed americans
we obviously don't understand this process and are to just love all these
Indians and other offshores taking jobs away from us--no thanks of course
to IBM, who is big on exploitation of developing and disadvantaged nations.
Seriously to ignore the cultural background that the head of Informix
comes from is to just be incredibly naive. This guy is never going to
reach native Americans, in fact, just the idea that an another Indian is in
charge is somewhat of a deal killer for me. I don't think, "Great Guy!"
I think, oh fuck here we go again another goddam Indian running something
that an american should be doing. Is that racist or nationalist? I'd
go with nationalist, at the risk of offending every indian out there. Just
his presence is an offense to me, and sorry if Indians don't get that, but
this whole offshoring thing and Indian lovefest grates on me. It's yet
another part of our culture and business community here in the us that shows
corporate greed and insensitivity to US workers. Again, sorry if you Indians
don't get that, but this is a raw nerve for a lot of us native americans.
Obnoxio The Clown
>
> Again, sorry if you Indians
> don't get that, but this is a raw nerve for a lot of us native americans.
>
>
Luckily you won't be offending any native American Indians. They're all
dead. :o)
InDeep
Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
> InDeep wrote:
>>
>> Again, sorry if you Indians
>> don't get that, but this is a raw nerve for a lot of us native americans.
>>
>>
>
> Luckily you won't be offending any native American Indians. They're all
> dead. :o)
>
Actually they're not dead, they're getting even by running casinos. And I think
they can actually think, code, and speak better than the Indian Indians. Chinese
do better work too, the DBA we have is from China, and his SQL skills are top
notch, some of the best stuff I've seen. He's giving me tips on how I can migrate
to China, and be an offshore myself. I can be one of a huddled masses too once India
takes complete control of the US, and we have to leave for better opportunities
outside our country.
*<8o)
Captain Pedantic
news:Vfzuk.7189$A82....@fe197.usenetserver.com...
> Seriously to ignore the cultural background that the head of Informix
> comes from is to just be incredibly naive. This guy is never going to
> reach native Americans, ...Again, sorry if you Indians
> don't get that, but this is a raw nerve for a lot of us native americans.
I'm sure we're not allowed to say "Native Americans" anymore.
Instead, we have to say "Red Indians".
Hang on, that's not right, is it ...?
InDeep
I was born in america, that makes me a Native American. If you're born
in Canada, or basically most of the western hemisphere, you too are a native
American!
Obnoxio The Clown
Does Lewisham count? :o)
InDeep
Well, I did a search through city and county zip codes from the US postal service
and came up blank. There is no Lewisham here in the US--at least as far as the
postal service is concerned. Which is amazing, since a lot of US cities are named
after cities outside the US.
InDeep
Just a brief follow-up, in case you're interested in the tech market:
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/28/does-silicon-valley-face-an-innovation-crisis/
Thomas L Friedman
best seller "The world is flat".
In article <Vfzuk.7189$A82....@fe197.usenetserver.com>, InDeep says...
>It may indeed be racist, but I'm not an expert on that. I do find it
Based on your expertise you should write a book "the world is fart"
Kevin Cherkauer
http://biz.yahoo.com/e/080729/ibm10-q.html
The following calculates the gross profits (in millions) for software versus
other major areas of IBM sales for the six months ending June 20, 2008, done
by multiplying the reported revenue times the gross margin:
Software: 8,784.9 = 10,421 * 0.843
GTS: 6,229.8 = 19,777 * 0.315
GBS: 2,544.6 = 10,018 * 0.254
Systems: 3,574.3 = 9,431 * 0.379
Financing: 672.2 = 1,266 * 0.531
Of the big five revenue areas, software delivers the largest absolute
profits, as well as the largest relative profits. Software profits are more
than double those from hardware (Systems above). They are larger than those
from either services wing (GTS or GBS). They are even larger than BOTH
services wings added together (GTS + GBS = 8,774.4).
So your statement that, "Maybe IBM should get out of the software business
altogether because they don't seem to be very good at it," does not seem to
hold a lot of water -- or any water at all.
--
Kevin Cherkauer
Software Engineer
IBM Informix Dynamic Server -- Database Kernel
"InDeep" <ind...@indeep.com> wrote in message
news:z7quk.5945$St....@fe67.usenetserver.com...
InDeep
were so vague as to be able to be interpreted differently depending on who's
reading the information. A company with the scale of IBM can say really say
whatever it wants to make whatever the numbers are, mean whatever they want them
to mean.
I did notice a lot of chatter about how professional services and acquisitions
contributed to the increase in sales. It actually left me wanting to ask more
questions than providing any real answers.
Also did you catch the stuff about emerging markets and economies? It's tragic
that Informix went from being an ideal opportunity for SMB markets to now being
held hostage by people who are only interested in developing business in countries
and markets that are "developing", read "third-world", where the money making
opportunities really work for a company like IBM and its offshoring obsession.
See if you can dig up some real numbers relevant to Informix, now THAT would be
interesting.
Serge Rielau
* IBM may be able to make many things up. But assuming it doesn't print
money (Printing division is sold) it has to come from somewhere. So if
you think IBM is propping up software then some other areas must have a
really stellar time (in secret)
* Growth in the US market in databases is limited to existing customers
buying more ot more expensive stuff. So what vendors need to do is:
a) Upsell
b) cross-sell
c) Hijack competitors accounts (which in IBM secret lingo (all is
revealed ;-) is called "whitespace")
a) and b) get you those high single digit numbers
c) is one tough nut to crack. Teaching your GF drive stick is nothing
compared to the pain of moving an application from X to Y.
Now, in those "third world countries" growth is a lot higher. Instead of
whitespace you can actually sell into the "green field".
All you have to do is win the bids and deliver on your promises.
Much easier than flipping a competitor's customer.
da...@smooth1.co.uk
>
> > Oracle has RAC
> > DB2 has DPF
>
> If you want to compare you have to compare RAC to DB2 on a Sysplex
>
> Cheers
> Serge
> --
> Serge Rielau
> DB2 Solutions Development
> IBM Toronto Lab
Nope, I am talking about spreading a database across multiple machines
where the task will required more power than
one machine can handle.
da...@smooth1.co.uk
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <da...@smooth1.co.uk>
>
> Newsgroups: comp.databases.informix
> To: <informix-l...@iiug.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 10:14 AM
> Subject: Re: XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> DB2 has DPF
>
> contender for serious systems, it cannot deploy a database
> aroudn mulitple hosts.
>
>
> Multiple updateable Shared Disk Secondarys or Multiple updateable Remote Standalone Secondarys?
>
> I think RSS has an edge over RAC because it does not need to share the same storage subsystem and can provide geographical
> redundancy.
>
> Andrew
>
> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Informix-l...@iiug.orghttp://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hmm so my task will not run one on blade that can only have 4 dual
core cpus so using multiple and replicating between them
helps? Or how does multiple secondaries help me partition my table
across 10 machines?
I am talking about having enough load to require 50+ machines and
partition my query across say 10 of them.
So how the Informix syntax for partitioning a table across 10 machines
is ...create table...??
and the rest of the syntax for Informix is???
Fernando Nunes
RAC will not do that. DPF and XPS do.
IDS could not do that without customizing the application/query unless you are
willing to work with distributed views...
Regards.
--
Fernando Nunes
Portugal
http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
Mark Townsend
> RAC will not do that.
Huh ?
Obnoxio The Clown
Here comes the salesman to explain how the technology works.
/me reaches for the popcorn ...
Ian Michael Gumby
wrote:
> "Obnoxio The Clown" <obno...@serendipita.com> wrote in messagenews:mailman.1657.12201387...@iiug.org...
>
> Ian Michael Gumby said:
>
> > Interesting is that part of Express ?
>
> That is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Or are you saying that you
> can buy DB2 DPF Express Edition?
>
> I wonder if he may be juxtaposing your argument yesterday - "IDS Express is
> good and cheap" - with today's argument - "IDS has features that make it
> better than RAC" - for mischievous effect ...?
No.
Actually the point is that OTC brought up the price of IDS Express as
a comparison. But in an effort to make IDS cost effective, certain
advanced features are missing. I was merely pointing out that features
like HA and "Rac-able" are not available in an express edition.
Ian Michael Gumby
> Assuming a single-CPU Intel box again:
>
Is that a single-CPU die, or single-CPU core?
Intel, AMD and Sun are all introducing multi core chips.
(I'd mention IBM, but I'm not up on the latest changes to their chip
line, or how their cell technology fits in. Besides IBM also sells
Intel based X-Series)
So how does that effect pricing. I mean heck we have dual core laptops
these days...
> But, er, hey! What do I know? It's not like I'm sitting here naked and
> blogging!
>
> Oh wait, I am!
>
That is a sad sick image.
Ian Michael Gumby
=
> I have yet to stumble into a company using Rational. It must be something IBM uses internally, right? Same for
> Clearcase, another behemoth package you'd only find at IBM, along with Websphere, does anybody actually use this shit?
> It's soooooo far removed from 99% of the companies IDS should be hitting. So maybe IBM works well with the top fortune
> 100s with these kinds of softwares, but that means IBM misses most of the rest of the market that Informix is ripe for.
> And yet they continue to sell billions of dollars of this crap--which I have yet to see actually being used by 99% of
> the companies out there that most of us run into.
Nope, I'm working with a client that is a Rational shop. They got in
to it before IBM's acquisition.
As to Websphere, yes people are using it. You have to consider that
with packages like JBoss that there are trade offs.
Not every company is going to want LAMP.
Ian Michael Gumby
wrote:
that level, list price differences aren't really the issue.
>
> My guess here, and from the highly technical nature of your previous posts,
> is that you do not make your living actually having to sell the product!
> Believe me, pricing is a big factor. However, the fact remains that some
> customers will pay the price demanded. My hunch is that IBM calculates that
> it has more to lose from having to discount licence and mainteannce to the
> exitsing customer base than it would gain through increased sales,
> particualrly given the much-discussed reluctance it already has to serious
> promotion of Informix.
>
Very few people here make their living selling.
But its also fair to point out that "nobody pays list".
The amount of discount will vary based on dollar size of the deal and
how much the customer buys from IBM.
The irony is that the SMB clients who can least afford high prices,
get the least amount of discount.
Ian Michael Gumby
wrote:
> InDeep wrote:
>
> Luckily you won't be offending any native American Indians. They're all
> dead. :o)
>
Naw, they own all the Casinos and are getting their revenge laughing
all the way to the bank.
Obnoxio The Clown
> On Aug 31, 8:23 am, Obnoxio The Clown <obno...@serendipita.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>> Assuming a single-CPU Intel box again:
>>
>>
> Is that a single-CPU die, or single-CPU core?
>
> Intel, AMD and Sun are all introducing multi core chips.
> (I'd mention IBM, but I'm not up on the latest changes to their chip
> line, or how their cell technology fits in. Besides IBM also sells
> Intel based X-Series)
>
> So how does that effect pricing. I mean heck we have dual core laptops
> these days...
>
In this specific case, it doesn't. A single-core CPU is 100 PVUs, and a
dual-core is 50PVUs per core.
Oh. I didn't realise Intel did a quad-core. Shows you how much I know.
Quad-core is also 50 PVUs per core. So it could, but I wasn't trying to
get that fancy.
>> But, er, hey! What do I know? It's not like I'm sitting here naked and
>> blogging!
>>
>> Oh wait, I am!
>>
>>
> That is a sad sick image.
>
Truth hurts. :o(
Ian Michael Gumby
that grotesque picture of you surfing the net nakid?
The problem with pricing is how IBM determines what a core is. Intel's
core is one thing. IBM's Cell? How many cores there? Or the new Sun
Rock architecture? Not all cores are equal and when it comes to
creating a solution, its all part of the pricing game.
Mark Townsend
>
> Here comes the salesman to explain how the technology works.
>
This is a technology newsgroup ? I thought I had wandered into soc.insane
Ian Michael Gumby
> > Here comes the salesman to explain how the technology works.
>
> This is a technology newsgroup ? I thought I had wandered into soc.insane
Naw that's anyone who's tried to run Oracle RAC. :-P
What? You didn't think you'd get a pie in the face here?
Now when are you fixing your global temp tables? And what about your
spatial indexing issues?
Madison Pruet
>
>>
>> Here comes the salesman to explain how the technology works.
>>
>
> This is a technology newsgroup ? I thought I had wandered into soc.insane
I can't believe it. I'm actually in agreement with Mark Townsend.
Wonders never cease...
Ian Michael Gumby
Well, Ok...
Madison,
Since you want to be the voice of reason, maybe you can explain this
to me?
Why is it that more than 2 years after Janet's departure, there is
still a disparity among IT Specialists?
Using Central North territory as an example...
Counting Certified IDS IT Specialists in the midwest...
0 in St Louis.
1 in Chicago
0 in Wisconsin
0 in Indiana
2 in Michigan (Dave P. and Shep aka Mr. Potential ;-)
0 in Ohio
0 in Northern KY and in Western PA.
0 in MN.
Unless IBM changed the territories, I think that's an accurate
headcount. Did I miss anyone?
Oh and 2 of the channels IT Specialists have moved. One to Florida and
One to Tx.
So why is it IBM hasn't cross trained more of their DB2 certified IT
Specialists to help cover this gap?
Talk about insanity.
But hey! What do I know?
And a bonus question... Who from IBM covers Peapod? You know the
grocery delivery service who's US HQ is in a Chicago 'burb, but was
bought out by a Dutch grocery store chain many moons ago? Its not the
local team, unless of course things changed recently? That's one way
to keep customers... ;-)
I realize that you're not in S&D. But as an IBMer you can call what
was once 1-800-IBM-4-YOU and ask to get this information. (Who's the
IBM client rep for Peapod that is...)
Or who covers Hyatt? ;-)
-G
DA Morgan
> Why is it that more than 2 years after Janet's departure, there is
> still a disparity among IT Specialists?
> Using Central North territory as an example...
>
> Counting Certified IDS IT Specialists in the midwest...
> 0 in St Louis.
> 1 in Chicago
> 0 in Wisconsin
> 0 in Indiana
> 2 in Michigan (Dave P. and Shep aka Mr. Potential ;-)
> 0 in Ohio
> 0 in Northern KY and in Western PA.
> 0 in MN.
>
> Unless IBM changed the territories, I think that's an accurate
> headcount. Did I miss anyone?
>
> Oh and 2 of the channels IT Specialists have moved. One to Florida and
> One to Tx.
>
> So why is it IBM hasn't cross trained more of their DB2 certified IT
> Specialists to help cover this gap?
Likely because the demand is so small that three people can handle it.
From dice.com
DB2 Wisconsin - 20 openings
IDS Wisconsin - 1 opening
DB2 Indiana - 5 openings
IDS Indiana - 1 opening
DB2 Ohio - 15 openings
IDS Ohio - 3 openings
DB2 Minnesota - 12 openings
IDS Minnesota - 2 openings
The math is really rather straight forward.
--
Daniel A. Morgan
University of Washington
damo...@x.washington.edu (replace x with u to respond)
Fernando Nunes
Can you share the search criteria you used?
Thanks.
Ian Michael Gumby
We've been through this 100s of times.
1) Its a known fact that companies don't need as many IDS DBAs to keep their systems running.
(Just talk to WallyMart, K-Sears, etc ...)
2) The quality of an IDS DBA is higher than those of an Oracle DBA so companies tend to not only require more to get the same level of service,
but also to get a competent DBA that will stick around longer than a year.
3) We're not talking about customers, we're talking about internal staffing at IBM.
Even in cities where there are IDS customers, the number of IT specialists is insufficient.
(Care to use Chicago as an example?)
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 07:52:59 -0700
> From: damo...@psoug.org
> Subject: Re: XPS to IDS - a positive note for all from the road
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now
Ian Michael Gumby
Fernando,
It doesn't matter.
The point of my argument is that there is a lack of parity among the IT Specialists supporting DB2 and IDS. I used Central North because I'm pretty certain of the head count. YMMV depending on sales territory and country.
Daniel points to Dice which BTW isn't an accurate indication at all.
As an example, I've seen 10 openings for a JDBC/J2EE guru with a financial background. Turns out that all of the 10 openings were for 3 openings, with 2 at one account. The next day, the number of positions jumped to 15, however it was more "head hunters" looking for the same position.
Its a waste of time arguing this point because is has no validation in any indication of product adoption.
But getting back to the point...
It would be very easy for someone in support to query AAS for the number of IDS customers in IL, then count the number of IT specialists in IL.
Or have customers and C.D.I posters count the number of IT Specialists that are IDS certified in their town.
You get the same point and the same message. A LACK OF PARITY AND LOCAL SUPPORT BY IBM of IDS.
Now why was it that Janet could mandate that all the Informix Heritage IT Specialists had to get cross trained on to DB2, yet now with the apparent lack of parity, Ambush can't do the same? I mean he's in the same role as Janet P was, right?
Or maybe he just doesn't care about it enough to make it happen?
Oh and I mean its a very simple thing for someone on his staff, like Alyse P, to send out an e-mail to change the FLM's PBCs to incent them to make it happen. (For those of you who don't speak IBM, the translation don't worry about it. There's enough IBMers here who should grok this point.)
It was brought to IBM's attention over a year and a half ago, yet it seems to be a low priority. I guess making those all hand con-calls that most of the listeners rarely pay attention to, is much more visible and a higher priority. (And yeah, I used to have to spend a couple of hours a week every other week on those all hand calls along with territory pipeline calls....)
But hey! What do I know? ;-)
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
Fernando Nunes
>
> Fernando,
>
> It doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter for you, please ignore any eventual answer from Daniel.
> Now why was it that Janet could mandate that all the Informix Heritage
> IT Specialists had to get cross trained on to DB2, yet now with the
> apparent lack of parity, Ambush can't do the same? I mean he's in the
> same role as Janet P was, right?
I will obviously not discuss any management decisions here, specially as you
say, ones that are much, much above my pay grade... but...
- I didn't had to cross train in DB2
- I'm certified in DB2 and Informix. I was already certified in Informix and I
updated the Informix certification at the same time I did the most basic DB2
certification
- Without going into details, because I not related to it, and because it's
"internal affairs" I can say that there is Informix training going on...
- I should already have updated my certification for IDS 11... but I have no time
- I have no plans and I suffer no pressure to update my DB2 certification
- I've been receiving request for information how IDS certifications from
external people
I really don't want to discuss anything with you, but the idea is that things
aren't always as simple and as "dark" as you try to show...
>
> Or maybe he just doesn't care about it enough to make it happen?
>
As you surely know, when things are selling people don't worry too much...
Not saying it's the correct attitude, but with so much going on these days
sometimes we tend to focus on what's going wrong... not on what's going well
although we should make it better.
> Oh and I mean its a very simple thing for someone on his staff, like
> Alyse P, to send out an e-mail to change the FLM's PBCs to incent them
> to make it happen. (For those of you who don't speak IBM, the
> translation don't worry about it. There's enough IBMers here who should
> grok this point.)
I do. My PBC never had a single reference to DB2.
Regards.
da...@smooth1.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
So when are they going to add this feature to IDS now that it will not
be merged with DB2?
All the other serious products have this capability (apart from
Oracle, I wonder how they get around that in their marketing?).
Ian Michael Gumby
> So when are they going to add this feature to IDS now that it will not
> be merged with DB2?
> All the other serious products have this capability (apart from
> Oracle, I wonder how they get around that in their marketing?).
You won't see it.
What? IBM add a feature to IDS that would allow it to be used in a
shared nothing distributed environment? Now that would mean it could
compete against DB2, IBM's stated Data warehouse platform. For SHAME!
for even suggesting that!
Ian Michael Gumby
> I do. My PBC never had a single reference to DB2.
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Fernando Nunes
> Portugal
>
> http://informix-technology.blogspot.com
> My email works... but I don't check it frequently...
And you are one of the rare few.
Only a handful of consultants who refused to learn DB2 or get
certified on DB2 are still around.
(Off the top of my head, I can only think of two. And one of them has
Mark Scranton's old job. The other is a band 10 lab consultant. ;-)
But I'm sure there are more.
The point is that if you checked my numbers for Central North
Territory, you'll see that I'm not off by much, if any. Now if we take
a look at the large Informix customers in Central North, you have to
wonder why so few? Its as if IBM doesn't want to sell IDS.
While I applaud you and a few others for making the stand and choosing
which platform you wish to support, I think that its a non-issue to
the overall larger picture...
So how about it? Anyone in Central North who wishes to dispute my
numbers? What about other regions around the US?
And lets not forget my other question about Peapod. Who covers them in
the US? (But I digress.)
I don't want to hit you with too many things at once....
-G
Fernando Nunes
> While I applaud you and a few others for making the stand and choosing
> which platform you wish to support, I think that its a non-issue to
> the overall larger picture...
Where the hell did you read I "stand and choosing..."?
Ian Michael Gumby
LOL...
Here in the US, marching orders were given. If you didn't want to
learn and get certified on DB2? Well...
A few people that I know did refuse. Of those, only a couple are still
within IBM today. (We're talking consultants)
So are we to believe that you were never offered DB2 training or given
incentives to get DB2 certification?
That would be interesting. But then again, the EU is a different beast
than here in the states.
Fernando Nunes
> So are we to believe that you were never offered DB2 training or given
> incentives to get DB2 certification?
> That would be interesting. But then again, the EU is a different beast
> than here in the states.
Are we to believe all that you say?
I already said I was not forced, offered any training etc.
I took the chance to certify at one of the EBU, after I did self training...
Renewed my IDS 7 to IDS 9 and did the very basic (DB2 advisor if I recall).
So this is interesting... And ohter parts of the world may be different...
That's the wonders of globalization... Suddently the world is a little bigger
than our belly and we notice we don't know everything...
Many people have pre-conceived ideas about IBM... many of them are founded.
It's a fact that you can't control a company of this size without rules. It's a
fact that it's probably the company where people stay longer (that impressed me
when I joined) etc. But every time people forget some very basic facts. To name
a few:
- In some countries, people at IBM data management more than double with
Informix acquisition. IBM has a strong culture of course. But does anybody
truly believe all this people from so many different origins are just
"eclipsed" by "IBM obscurity"?
- In a recent meeting, IIRC about 60-70% of the people present became IBMers
through recent acquisitions
- IBM is one of the oldest IT companies in the world. It went through very
though times. It survived because the majority of the people are plain
incompetents?
- The guys that pick up my PMRs are essentially the same for years... Once in a
while I get a new name of course, which is a good sign, but there's a lot of
experience and know how.
- Picking c.d.i. for example... the people that really help here are the same
for years... I didn't check but I have the idea I received help from Jonathan
years before I joined Informix. Everybody knows Madison. Oh... and if you
notice, there are "new" names, specially answering questions on .NET and other
windows related products.
- In Informix arena, the product is so much better and have seen so many
improvements (translated into two big releases in 2007 and 2008).
This thread doesn't deserve my time, but since it doesn't have any specific
subject, a bit of context should do no harm...
Regards.