Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, The Next Informix IDS Release...

[ema...@iiug.org]

IIUG Insider (Issue #75)
September 2006

Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006: October 15-20 2006, Anaheim, CA; IBM To Unleash Cheetah, The Next Informix IDS Release

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Contents:
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Welcome to the International Informix Users Group (IIUG) Insider! Designed for IIUG members and Informix user group leaders, this publication contains timely and relevant information for the IBM Informix community.

* Editorial
* Highlights
IBM Information On Demand 2006: October 15-20 2006, Anaheim, CA.
IBM To Unleash Cheetah, The Next Informix IDS Release
* Conference corner
IDUG/IIUG Europe Conference Vienna, October 2-6, 2006
IDUG/IIUG NA Conference San Jose May 6-10, 2007
Informix User Forum 2006
* Education
Information On Demand 2006 Global Conference
Pre-Conference Technical Education
Complimentary Informix Professional Certification at the IBM Information On Demand 2006 Global Conference
IBM Training eCatalog Fall Edition - Now Available
Informix Class from IBM
Just Released: IBM Alphablox Professional Certification
Informix Chat with the Lab --Informix Executive Roundtable
* Developer corner
New on developerWorks
V10 External Directives
* Informix News
Centrify DirectControl to add Active Directory integration with Informix
Ladbrokes bets on IBM
* IIUG Board
Webcast Corner
* Calendar of events
* Useful links
* Closing and credits

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Editorial
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In a few days I will be on my way to Vienna for the first full technical Informix conference in Europe. We worked hard to bring the best speakers and great technical content to the European users' doorstep. We were under the impression our users are interested in having this event. We backed our feelings with survey results.

I must say I am disappointed with the current status of registration. It seems European Informix users don't share our enthusiasm. Is it the price? The dates or lack of support from your management? I have no idea. If you are a European Informix user, please, write me a short email and tell me why you didn't attend and would you attend the 2007 conference in Athens. One line will do. It is very important for us to know if the idea of a conference in Europe is worth pursuing.

Gary Ben-Israel
IIUG Insider Editor
IIUG Board of Directors
ga...@iiug.org

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Highlights
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IBM INFORMATION ON DEMAND 2006: OCTOBER 15-20 2006, ANAHEIM, CA.

http://www.ibm.com/events/informationOnDemand/

Register now for the premier information management event for business and IT professionals. IBM's new five-day event combines the following conferences into one: IBM DB2(r) Information Management Technical Conference; IBM Content Management Technical Conference; Business Intelligence Customer Solutions Summit; IMS Technical Conference; Master Data Management Conference; and Information Integration Live! By combining individual conferences into one global event, you gain access and exposure to the full breadth of IBM Information Management technologies and experts.

More IBM technical and business solutions content will be in one place than ever before! Select from over 800 sessions: a 2 1/2 day business leadership track with 180 sessions and a 5 day technical track with 650 sessions.

Get To Front of the Line

Enrollment for educational sessions, hands on labs, meet the experts sessions and all other programs at the IBM Information On Demand 2006 conference opened on August 15. Register early to get the first choice of classes!

Registration at Information On Demand 2006 includes admission to all 800+ educational sessions and programs, to the huge EXPO Solution Center, to the conference receptions and entertainment, to the conference party at Disney's California Adventure theme park, and for all conference meals. Information On Demand 2006 will take place in Anaheim, California, 15-20 October 2006.

IBM TO UNLEASH CHEETAH, THE NEXT INFORMIX IDS RELEASE

True to its word, IBM continues to update the Informix IDS database, a cult favorite among some database VARs and customers.

The next release, code-named Cheetah, is due to beta this spring and will feature record-level locking, technology carried over from the latest release of IBM DB2, said Arvind Krishna, vice president of database servers for IBM Software's Information Management Group, Somers, N.Y.

IBM is also making sure the new release will win federal security certifications including the Evaluation Assurance Levels 3 and 4.

The current IDS Version 10 Release Change 5-IDS uses its own release terminology-offers row-level and column-level locking. IDS has long been known for its extensibility, its ability to run for long periods without human intervention, and its ability to handle non-relational object like data.

"IDS fits really well in that space where you don't need or can't have a million DBAs. It can go into a DBA-less environment, often hub-and-spoke environments used by branches and retail operations," Krishna told CRN.

One unnamed customer runs 4,000 physical locations and more than 10,000 instances of the current IDS release with just eight DBAs, he claimed. "If you can show me an Oracle installation [doing that], I'll buy you the bottle of wine of your choice," he said.

For the full article by Barbara Darrow, CRN go to:

http://www.crn.com/sections/software/software.jhtml?articleId=193004835

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Conference corner
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IDUG/IIUG EUROPE CONFERENCE VIENNA, OCTOBER 2-6, 2006

http://conferences.idug.org/Default.aspx?alias=conferences.idug.org/eu

Just come and register on site!

The conference is only 3 days away. Come to Vienna and attend this extraordinary educational event. Attend 34 technical sessions by the best presenter from US and Europe, meet your Informix colleagues. Enjoy the lovely city of Vienna.

IDUG/IIUG NA CONFERENCE SAN JOSE MAY 6-10, 2007

Call for presentations for the IDUG/IIUG NA Conference 2007 ended September 1st. We had almost 100 abstracts submitted from both end users and IBM employees! The IIUG CPC will be meeting in Chicago the weekend of September 29th to select the best abstracts and create an agenda for the conference.

There will be 4 tracks again in 2007, jam packed with new and exciting Informix technical content! Stay Tuned.

INFORMIX USER FORUM 2006

A Two-Day User Group Technical Conference December 8-9, 2006 Washington DC, USA

http://www.iiug.org/waiug/present/Forum2006/Forum2006.html

The Washington Area Informix User Group (WAIUG) and the Southeast Informix Users Group (SEIUG), based in Atlanta, GA, are teaming up to present Informix and DB2 User Forum 2006, the premiere Informix and DB2 regional user group technical conference in the eastern U.S.

The Informix User Forum, previously sponsored biennially by WAIUG, has long had a reputation for excellence in both value and technical content. Now, the two groups have joined forces to evolve the Forum into an annual two-day conference. This year's event will be held December 8-9 in Washington DC.

Forum 2006 promises to provide even more technical content, plus opportunities to network with fellow users and access to information on the latest vendor offerings. This, combined with a registration fee of US$ 120.00 (pre-register for $80) for the entire conference, makes the value of this event hard to beat.

Call For Presentations

We are currently accepting presentation abstracts for the Forum on Informix and DB2 related topics in any of the areas listed below.

Subjects related to all current DB2, Informix and Informix-heritage products are welcome, as well as products that operate in those environments such as other IBM products, plus third party, Open Source and cross-platform products.

Presenters will receive a complimentary all-conference pass.

The Forum will be organized into three general subject areas or tracks that will run concurrently.

The Application Development track will cover such topics as application development tools and methodologies, application and database architecture, and maximizing application and SQL performance as well as aspects of Informix that provide a distinct edge in application development and processing such as emerging technologies like XML and Web services, operation in cross-platform and heterogeneous environments, and support for Open Source and third-party tools.

The Database Engines and Administration track will feature sessions on topics including database and data warehouse design and administration, performance tuning, backup and restore, and security.

The DB2 track will feature sessions on topics including database and data warehouse design and administration, performance tuning, backup and restore, and security.

Tracks will feature extended session lengths of 70 minutes, which conference goers have said they prefer.

Visit the Forum 2006 Web sitehttp://www.iiug.org/waiug/present/Forum2006/Forum2006.html to find more details about the conference and an on-line application for submitting your presentation abstract.

The on-line application for submitting presentations can also be directly accessed here:

http://www.iiug.org/%7Eseiug/forum2006/cfp2006form.html

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Education
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INFORMATION ON DEMAND 2006 GLOBAL CONFERENCE PRE-CONFERENCE TECHNICAL EDUCATION

http://www.ibm.com/events/informationOnDemand/

Now available at Information On Demand 2006 October 15-20, 2006 are 14 unique pre-conference technical training courses as well as Professional Certification preparation courses to all registered attendees. These courses will deliver more in depth information and skills than is possible in a regular conference session. The technical training courses will cover a wide range of topics addressing some of the hottest issues affecting IBM Customers today! Plan to arrive a day early as the courses will only be available for one day, Sunday, October 15, 2006. Courses will be offered at a discounted rate of $399 USD each. Space is limited, so check out the course descriptions and register early to ensure your seat. Non-registered students may attend courses on a first come first served basis, space permitting.

http://www.ibm.com/software/data/ondemandbusiness/conf2006/courses.html

COMPLIMENTARY INFORMIX PROFESSIONAL CERTIFICATION AT THE IBM INFORMATION ON DEMAND 2006 GLOBAL CONFERENCE

Join us October 15-20 in Anaheim CA for this premier event and get certified for free! Conference attendees will be offered three complimentary certification exams. Certification will be available on Informix software as well as other Information Management software products, WebSphere, Rational, Tivoli, and Lotus software. Many new certifications will be available this year, including Informix Dynamic Server Version 10, XML, Content Management OnDemand, DB2 9, IBM Alphablox and DWE. If you would like to take more than three tests, additional exams will be offered at the conference at a discounted price of $75.00 each. For more information, please visit:

http://www-03.ibm.com/certify/process/iod.shtml

IBM TRAINING eCATALOG FALL EDITION - NOW AVAILABLE

We just announced new courses and updated courses in the IBM Training Fall eCatalog. Get your skills in shape for fall with one simple click that opens the door to the training information you have been seeking. It has everything you need for your technical training needs!

More:

http://www-304.ibm.com/jct03001c/services/learning/ites.wss/us/en?pageType=page&c=a0004805

INFORMIX CLASS FROM IBM

Get the latest information on Informix courses public training classes from IBM. Recent announcements include:

FN848 Managing and Optimizing IBM Informix Dynamic Server Databases - 4 days
FN613 IBM Informix Structure Query Language - 3 days
L2403 IBM Informix Dynamic Server Performance Tuning - 4 days
MW729 IBM Informix Dynamic Server Advanced Performance Tuning - 5 days
L1846 IBM Informix Dynamic Server Administration - 4 days

Bookmark this page and check back periodically to see all the new courses that get added to our portfolio.

http://www.iiug.org/url/IBM_Informix_training.html

JUST RELEASED: IBM ALPHABLOX PROFESSIONAL CERTIFICATION

Validate your skills and demonstrate your proficiency with Alphablox technology with this new certification. This certification and exam are designed for candidates with knowledge of IBM's Business Intelligence solutions and the fundamental concepts of relational and multidimensional database technologies, and are capable of performing the intermediate and advanced skills required to design, develop and support custom analytical applications. Upon completion of the Alphablox Certification exam 715 as well as required prerequisites, you can become an IBM Certified Solution Developer - IBM Alphablox.

http://www-03.ibm.com/certify/certs/absdiblox.shtml

INFORMIX CHAT WITH THE LAB -- INFORMIX EXECUTIVE ROUNDTABLE

Wednesday, October 25th 11-12:30 Eastern time.

Hear the latest on Informix from the execs - Jerry Keesee, Director of the Informix Lab; Stuart Litel, President of the International Informix Users Group; and Bruce Weed, Program Director for Informix Marketing. Informix sales are strong, Cheetah development is adding some phenomenal functionality to the product set and the press is saying some very favorable things about IDS. You won't want to miss this Chat which will include a special IBM/IIUG announcement of an offering exclusively for IIUG members!

RSVP at: http://www.ibm.com/informix/webcasts

Linda Spina
IBM Information Management Sales - Americas

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Developer corner
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NEW ON DEVELOPERWORKS

Please visit our site for new and updated content:

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/zones/informix/

Informix Dynamic Server Locking, Part 1:
Understand locking behavior and analyze locking conflicts in IDS

September 7, 2006
This is the first of a two-part article series talking about locking mechanisms in IBM's strategic data server, Informix(r) Dynamic Server (IDS). IDS is an optimal choice for high-end online transaction processing (OLTP) and embedded solutions. This article helps you to understand locking methodology and assists you in analyzing locking conflicts.

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/library/techarticle/dm-0609herber/

V10 EXTERNAL DIRECTIVES

We have all been there and found a query that is causing performance problems and we cannot change because

* It is not your application or a 3rd party application
* You don't have the source code access or the developer is unavailable
* The application is heavily used and can't be switched without downtime and changing statistics and OPTCOMPIND doesn't affect

With V10 you can create/save external optimizer directives:

* External optimizer directives are useful when it is not feasible rewrite a query for a short-term solution to a problem
* For example, when a query starts to perform poorly.

Note: Rewriting the query by changing the SQL statement is preferable longterm solutions to problems. External directives are for occasional use only. The number of directives stored in the sysdirectives catalog could be excessive.

Saving External directives

The directives are saved in the sysdirectives catalog using the SAVE EXTERNAL DIRECTIVESstatement.

SQL Syntax:

SAVE EXTERNAL DIRECTIVES directives [ACTIVE | INACTIVE | TEST ONLY] FOR query

SQL Example:

SAVE EXTERNAL DIRECTIVES --+INDEX(customer, zip_ix)
ACTIVE
FOR SELECT * FROM customer WHERE zipcode > '00000';

If external directives are disabled then error 9932: External Directives feature is currently disabled is returned.

External Directives also works for queries with host variables and prepared statements, for example:

EXEC SQL SELECT lname, fname INTO :lname, :fname FROM
customer WHERE zipcode > :zipcode;

EXEC SQL PREPARE zip FROM 'SELECT lname , fname FROM
customer WHERE zipcode > ?';

EXEC SQL EXECUTE zip INTO :lname, :fname USING :zipcode;

Here both queries are handled by this a single directive.

SAVE EXTERNAL DIRECTIVES --+index(customer, zip_ix)
ACTIVE
FOR SELECT lname , fname FROM customer WHERE zipcode > ?;

Note: Query must match exactly, including white space, case and carriage returns

Enabling external directives

Environment Variable: IFX_EXTDIRECTIVES

0 = off (default)
1 = on (requires external directives are enabled by the EXT_DIRECTIVES parameter)

Configuration parameter: EXT_DIRECTIVES

0 = off (default)
1 = enabled, but off by default at the session level
2 = enabled and on by default at session level if IFX_EXTDIRECTIVES is not set

You must include one of the ACTIVE, INACTIVE, or TEST ONLY keyword options to enable,disable or restrict the scope of external directives.

Active applies the list of directives to any subsequent query that matches the query string.
Inactive IDS ignores the directive. (It is associated with the query in sysdirectives, but it is dormant, with no effect.)
Test only If external directives are enabled, the TEST ONLY keywords apply the directives only to matching queries that the DBA or user Informix executes. Queries by any other users cannot use TEST ONLY external directives.

The Sysdirectives table

External directives are stored in the sysdirectives system catalog

SELECT * FROM sysdirectives;

id 16
query select * from customer where zipcode > '00000'
directive index(customer, zip_ix)
directivecode <BYTE value>
active 1
hashcode -2020775465

The DBA or the user informix can update the 'active' column to activate/inactivate an external Directive

INACTIVE UPDATE sysdirectives SET ACTIVE = 0 WHERE id = 16;
ACTIVE UPDATE sysdirectives SET ACTIVE = 1 WHERE id = 16;
TEST ONLY UPDATE sysdirectives SET ACTIVE = 2 WHERE id = 16;

Potential Performance Impact

The purpose of external directives is to improve the performance of queries that match the query string, but the use of such directives can potentially slow other queries, if the query optimizer must compare the query strings of a large number of active external directives with the text of every SELECT statement.

For this reason, it is recommended that the DBA not allow the sysdirectives table to accumulate more than a few ACTIVE rows. Another way to avoid unintended performance impact on other queries is to disable this feature.

If more than one SET EXTERNAL DIRECTIVES statements associate active external directives with the same query, the effect is unpredictable, because the optimizer uses the first sysdirectives row whose query string matches the query.

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Informix News
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CENTRIFY DIRECTCONTROL TO ADD ACTIVE DIRECTORY INTEGRATION WITH INFORMIX

Centrify to Deliver Microsoft Active Directory-based Single Sign-On for Popular UNIX-based Databases and SAP R/3

You can find the full article at:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060926/sftu116.html?.v=60

LADBROKES BETS ON IBM

Bookmaker Ladbrokes has extended a licensing and maintenance deal with IBM Informix Dynamic Server to run its online betting application OpenBet.

The betting company will upgrade to a new IDS Version Nine platform, which will support its sports books and gaming sites, for the next four years.

You can find the full article at:

Computing on vnunet.com
http://www.vnunet.com/computing/news/2163656/ladbrokes-bets-ibm#

Computer Weekly
http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/2006/09/08/218345/Ladbrokes+rides+on+with+Informix.htm

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IIUG Board
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WEBCAST CORNER

New on the IIUG website:

All the Informix Webcasts, back through 2004 and some even as far as 18th June 2002, are available for download from the IIUG website. Just go to http://www.iiug.org/news/webcasts.html

If you would like to go back to one of webcasts or just looking for excellent technical education by the best Informix experts this is the place to go.

Downloads include PowerPoint presentations and audio replays.

Go to our site and see for yourselves.

If you like it, have ideas for improvement or new ideas please write to me. Your input is important.

Gary Ben-Israel
IIUG Insider Editor
ga...@iiug.org

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Calendar of events
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2-6 October 2006
IDUG/IIUG 2006 - Europe
Vienna, Austria
Web site: http://conferences.idug.org/europe/2006/
Contact: Cindy Lichtenauer - ci...@iiug.org

15-20 October 2006
IBM Information on Demand Global Conference
Anaheim, California
Web site: http://www-306.ibm.com/software/data/ondemandbusiness/conf2006/

8-9 December 2006
Washington Area Informix Users Group - Forum 2006
Washington DC
Web site: http://www.iiug.org/~waiug
Contact: Lester Knutsen - les...@advancedatatools.com

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Useful links
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In response to your input, we have created a page on the IIUG web site containing all the links we used to include. Please find it at: http://www.iiug.org/quicklinks.html

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Closing and credits
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The International Informix Users Group (IIUG) is an organization designed to enhance communications between its worldwide user community and IBM. IIUG's membership database now exceeds 25,000 entries and enjoys the support and commitment of IBM's Data Management division. Key programs include local user groups and special interest groups, which we promote and assist from launch through growth.

Sources: IIUG Board of Directors, IBM Corp.
Editors: Gary Ben Israel, Stuart Litel, Jean Georges Perrin

For comments, please send an email to ga...@iiug.org.

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IIUG Gold Sponsors
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Advanced DataTools
http://www.advancedatatools.com

AGS Ltd.
http://www.serverstudio.com

CobraSonic
http://www.cobrasonic.com

Four J's Development Tools
http://www.4js.com

Gillani
http://www.gillani.com

Kazer
http://www.kazer.com

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http://www.msystemsintl.com

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http://www.oninit.com/iiug.html

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http://www.princetonsoftech.com/Partners/companies/ibm.asp

[Captain Pedantic]

>> I must say I am disappointed with the current status of registration. It
>> seems European Informix users don't share our enthusiasm. Is it the
>> price?

Yes! It's the price!
At nearly 2,000 euros? You got to be jokin', man!
For 2,000 euros I could fly to Washington, have 3 nights' stay and attend
the WAIG weekend and still have 1,000 euros change.
(Although I'm not doing that either as I'm tired of queueing for an hour for
the privilege of being made to feel a crimial by US immigration).

[Captain Pedantic]

>> One unnamed customer runs 4,000 physical locations and more than 10,000
>> instances of the current IDS release with just eight DBAs, he claimed.
>> "If you can show me an Oracle installation [doing that], I'll buy you the
>> bottle of wine of your choice," he said.

Why is the customer un-named?

[TBP]

2,000 Euros equals roughly £1,350!!!!!!

Humm, how much is a 5 day IM Informix Administration course or DB2 Admin
course where you get about 8 students to 1 teacher? About the same - and
the content is exactly what you want - over 5 days?

I haven't really looked into this but, I would say that 1,000 Euros
would be a more "realistic" price - and 500 if you want to fill the
rooms. Individuals do not want to pay the money themselves, and managers
have to be convinced on return on their money. Say people find 5
"interesting" one hour lectures they want to attend - that works out on
average 400 Euros per lecture! What's that ... £5 a minute!

Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend?
Can people get "half days"?

Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500
Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 Euros?

Still, a bit late now huh :D

[Superboer]

Please:

-->>The next release, code-named Cheetah, is due to beta this spring

and will feature record-level locking, technology carried over from the

latest release of ---->>IBM DB2, said Arvind Krishna, vice president of

database servers for IBM Software's Information Management Group,
Somers, N.Y.

-->>The current IDS Version 10 Release Change 5-IDS uses its own

release terminology-offers row-level and column-level locking. IDS has

long been known ---->>for its extensibility, its ability to run for

long periods without human intervention, and its ability to handle
non-relational object like data.

Madison explained properly in this news group what feature is ment
here; the above description is shooting yourself in the foot.

Superboer.

ema...@iiug.org schreef:

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Captain,

Everybody can guess who is the un-named shop, no?

What I have been discovering over time is that people selecting an IT
solution, does not want to advertise the products they are using. IT gives
them a strategic advantage over their competition and they do not want the
news to be spread around.

It's specially true in sectors where competition is very hard, like retail,
telcos, pharma... I am probably sure it's the same with your customers.

Nevertheless, it's annoying! :-)

jgp

> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Captain Pedantic said:
> (Although I'm not doing that either as I'm tired of queueing for an hour
> for
> the privilege of being made to feel a crimial by US immigration).

Dear Pedant,

What is a "crimial"? :o?

--
Bye now,
Obnoxio

"... no bill is required as no value was provided."
-- Christine Normile

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by OpenProtect(http://www.openprotect.com), and is
believed to be clean.

[Obnoxio The Clown]

I dunno, but it's probably a wine merchant.

[Keith Simmons]

And another 1800 euros for room only accomodation, the price just
racks up and up

[Jean Georges Perrin]

C'on Keith -- there are also a few bridges in Vienna, and they are very nicely located near the conference center... I am not too keen on camping, but, you are not forced to pay 600€ per night (assuming you stay three night, mon, tue, wed), the conference hotel is not even a third of this price.

Seriously, we realize it is expensive, but it's an investment. When your shop requires an expert to come and solve a problem, it may be 1000 euros or more per day, plus the same expenses...

The debate is over for Vienna but open for future conferences...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Keith Simmons
> Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:25
> To: informix-list
> Subject: Fwd: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>

[elanl...@yahoo.com]

TBP wrote:
> Can people pay for the number of "days" they attend?
> Can people get "half days"?
>
> Would you have got 4 times the number of people if the price was 500
> Euros? Would it have been better to just get the people in at 500 Euros?
>
> Still, a bit late now huh :D

It would appear that no one is listening. IBM looks to the IIUG Board
of Directors for guidance on the needs and desires of the community.
The community has been clear on the issue of conferences since day 1.
Yet, I don't recall the IIUG BoD taking these issues to IBM. On the
other hand, IBM is a major sponsor of the IIUG (the trips to various
venues for the BoD to meet and a myriad of justifiable, necessary
expenses IBM quite rightly also foots); yet the IIUG BoD provides
little support for IBM in promoting it's conferences. Such as in this
Insider where the BoD finally deigned to mention IBM's upcoming IOD
conference in Anaheim. They managed to do so without even mentioning
there would be Informix content and by referring to DB2 yet again.
They also failed to mention that this conference was designed to
eliminate many (not all) of the Informix communities issues with past
conferences.

Perhaps if the BoD would push the community agenda and needs with IBM
instead of it's own and support IBM's initiatives to support Informix
(not the idiotic ones, of course), perhaps IBM would find a way to
sponsor the types of conferences that would work for the community at
large.

In the meantime, I hope to see many of you in Washington, D.C.

[Double Echo]

You make the assertion indirectly that somehow the IIUG would have an
ombudsman function or purpose, for users, to go to IBM for representation.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Since the IIUG are not funded by the users and instead are funded by IBM it
only makes sense who they really represent. That's just smart business.

[Davorin Kremenjas]

> Seriously, we realize it is expensive, but it's an investment.

An investment?
Who is supposed to come to Vienna? End-users who are using Informix and
Business Partners who are supporting them doing that.
Well, end-users already made an investement purchasing licenses.
BP's should invest so they can sell IBM's software? Should not it be the
other way around? IBM enabling BP's for successfull sales and tech support?

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Yeah, why should end-users invest in education, seriously? I mean, you
have the cream of IBM's Informix experts in one venue, people who design
and build vital components of IDS who can teach you about new,
cutting-edge and undocumented features. You have users who have already
done stuff you will be doing and can teach you what to look out for. Why
should you pay to listen to them teach you how to make use of your
databases? Why should you have to contribute to the bill for facilities?
For that matter, why should you even bother to read the manuals?

For the sake of fucking fuck, yes, this conference IS expensive, but what
the do you moaning minnies all want? Either you have to get off your arses
and put together all the conference material, badger your employers to
donate education facilities and cajole local experts to present on them
(like the WAIUG forum) and make a cheap and interesting conference, or you
can pay someone to do all the drudge work for you (like the IDUG/IIUG EMEA
conference).

And for years now, I've been hearing sniping about how the IIUG are biased
towards America, and how they never do anything for Europe, and how unfair
they all are. Now there's a conference right in the heart of Europe and
they are still being pilloried. Have you guys who are all bitching about
this conference actually done anything constructive to show the IIUG what
could be done for less money?

I had a look at the list of speakers and I wish I could have afforded to
go myself. But I can't and I don't sit here and whinge about how
insensitive the IIUG are for charging money for high-quality speakers in
an expensive venue.

At the end of the day, you pay for your education one way or another. And
what is cheaper: 2000 Euros to learn from the best on a wide variety of
topics, 2000 Euros for a good IBM class on one topic (times however many
topics you need to cover), or days of downtime or lost business
opportunities because you didn't know better?

And while I'm already fucking pissed off: I've been involved in Informix
User Groups on three continents, and the bulk of the user communities on
all three were exactly the same bunch of indolent slackers who each wanted
the conferences presented in THEIR company canteen, with a free lunch
thrown in, with world class speakers, for free. And if it couldn't be in
THEIR company canteen, they wanted a free chauffeur-driven limousine to
pick them up at their front door and drop them off back at home as well.
The handful of gung-ho members in each country would then bust their balls
to try to deliver this, but there are always still moans:

Oh, it's so far from London to Warwick! Oh, why is the conference in Dubai
-- it's so far from Qatar!? Oh, I can't get management approval for a Tube
ticket at lunch time for a seminar. Oh, I can't get the day off, why can't
you reschedule the whole conference? Why can't you schedule the conference
on a day when I don't have yoga classes? Oh, I didn't like the food, their
was no lobster thermidore.

For God's sake, get a grip. Instead of moaning, why the hell are you
bastards never there when a conference is being organised? Why is it
always down to committee members and IBM to do all the legwork, provide
the speakers and all the facilities and refreshments? In fact, why are you
bastards never there when it comes to forming and inevitably re-forming
the latest incarnation of the local user group committee?

I think the phrase "ungrateful bastards" sums up my years of working in
the Informix user group community. Apart from the same handful of familiar
faces, all this loyalty to and enthusiasm for the product seems to
disappear when it comes to giving something back.

Go on, prove me wrong.

--
Yours in genuine and heartfelt anger,

[Neil Truby]

"Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@serendipita.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.11.115986314...@iiug.org...

> I had a look at the list of speakers and I wish I could have afforded to
> go myself. But I can't and I don't sit here and whinge about how
> insensitive the IIUG are for charging money for high-quality speakers in
> an expensive venue.

To be fair, JGP (or was it Gary?) said that he was disappointed with the
level of registration and asked for feedback on why. I said I thought it
was too expensive. JGP disagreed. Davorin disagreed with him.

You seem to have adopted the astonishingly flexible position of blasting
those who say it's too expensive whilst simultaneously admitting you're not
going because it's too expensive!

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Actually, if you actually read my post you would have noticed that I was
blasting people for the following:

1. Moaning that they had to pay for education;
2. Moaning that the IIUG never did anything in Europe and then moaning for
what they did do when they did it;
3. Moaning that there was always something wrong with the education
offered by the IIUG and other local user groups yet not having the
gumption to get involved and contribute something themselves.

If users were actually prepared to contribute by preparing material,
coercing THEIR employers into providing facilities and refreshments and
then deliver the material, then a user group conference can be provided at
a much more acceptable rate. However, if everything has to be parachuted
in, it will cost much more to attend.

There is no logical inconsistency or flexibility in my position: I have
given enough of my time and effort over 20 years to say that I have done
what I can to help user groups provide something useful for users. I have
done my bit. Can all the people bitching here about the cost of this event
say the same?

--
Bye now,

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Christine,

Please stop saying lies or speaking about things you do not have a clue
about. You have never been on the Board, you have been invited quite a few
times, and you were not on the conference calls, nor in the exchange between
the Board members.

Thanks.

On the subject of conferences, the bigger it is, the most expensive it is.

When you have a users group lunch, it is basically free, when the
WAIUG/SEIUG do a regional conference, price is about $100, but they have a
huge crowd of volunteers to help them, then when you organise things like
IOD or IDUG, you have more costs, because you can not rely only on
volunteers...

jgp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of elanl...@yahoo.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 00:25
> To: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>

[Double Echo]

Several key things here JGP.

Why is it up to the IIUG to market Informix? That is what you are implying.

Why is there no major application announcement regarding the use of Informix?

Why is there no momentum with this product?

Why isn't IBM putting some money into events and the product marketing?

It appears that this next release is doomed to another misfire in the market
from incompetence at every turn.

[malcolm weallans]

I think we should give this thread the correct title, not have it hiding
behind something else.

If I can add my few pennorth on the subjects of the cost of conferences etc.

The challenge we all face is how to persuade the powers that be that we are
making a good investment by paying for somebody to attend a conference.

What are the benefits of the conference compared with the cost of
attendance?

The benefits are that you get to sit though lots of presentations which
might be relevant to your job function. (I would defy anybody to convince
me that all marketing presentations are that relevant to the audience but
that's the cynic in me speaking). From my experience of attending many
worldwide user conferences, local user group conferences, and Infobahns the
%age of relevant presentations is at most 40%, and is often much less.

Even the Chat With The Labs series of webcasts is becoming difficult to
justify with so much time being spent on the marketing message and so little
time on real technical issues.

OK so you can take certification exams - big deal! What is that worth in
reality.

OK so you can listen to some of the experienced people talking about the
product - that is fine for the speakers but if all they do is to regurgitate
information then it is not that beneficial.

OK so you can network with other users of the product.

And what about the costs:-

Generally a 5 day conference is now around $2000. The cost of travel and
accommodation is roughly the same amount unless you are prepared to catch
flights at ungodly hours and stay in ungodly hotels.

There is also the question of the time away from work. Currently I am sold
out to clients at a rate in excess of $1000 per day.

So a five day conference is realistically going to cost in excess of $9000.

I did make enquiries about going to the conference in Vienna, and the
upcoming one in Anaheim. I was told that if I wanted to attend the
conference I could do so at my own expense and by using my holidays. I can
see my wife's reaction if I tell her I'm taking a week off to attend an IBM
conference and it's going to cost $9,000. (Those of you that know my wife
can guess at her reaction). My only alternative is to publicise the name of
my company by doing a presentation. (Wake up David Williams!) But so far I
have submitted a possible presentation to three conferences and had them
turned down. After all I wanted to talk about the realities of how to
survive disaster recovery and outline some of the reasons why we have failed
to recover from disasters with the promptness that a customer should expect.
(It really is surprising how many things can go wrong when you try to
recover - I can spend many hours talking it if you would all like)

As many of you will know I was a member of the Board of Directors of IIUG
for about 7 years and was part of the board when we first started getting
involved with subsidies from Informix to help with our administration costs.
That was a very difficult decision and is still a very difficult decision.
The challenge facing IIUG was to raise money to fund the services (including
this Newsgroup, the Website, the board meetings etc). We had a choice
between setting an economic membership fee for all members - including those
from the third world where salaries are less than $50 per month - or finding
somebody to subsidise the services. Nowadays we have been able to get
subsidies from other organisations but then we had no choice - there was
only one organisation who were prepared to back us, and then only for a
limited time. The fact that the subsidy continued even when IBM bought
Informix is testament to the work of the board of directors in creating a
model for independent worldwide user groups. OK at times it might seem that
the board is a little too IBM centric but that is really down to the
membership of IIUG making their voice heard and indeendent thinkers being
voted onto the board.

As a result of the activities of the BOD there are now choices of
conferences to attend. The IBM conference, the joint IIUG/IDUG conference,
and numerous local conferences. There are Infobahns, Local User Group
meetings, and even bigger forums like Washington Area Informix Users Group.
The quality of the conference and the relevance of the conference to the
attendees varies according to the type of organisation that runs it. If the
conference is run by VARs it will be more relevant to people who work for
VARs. If the conference is run by IBM then it will be more relevant to the
people who work for IBM - and possibly to people who like hearing a
sanitised message from the supplier. If the conference is run by a group of
enthusiastic amateurs it won't have the same razzamatazz but it might be
more worthwhile.

We all have to make the choice and vote with our attendance. If we don't
attend IBMs conferences they will still run them as some people within IBM
have budgets to spend, but if we don't attend IDUG/IIUG or local user group
meetings they will inevitably fold.

I don't think the BOD should be telling us to attend the IBM conference -
although I have seen no publicity for it other than from IIUG - but we
should really consider if the user organised conferences are what we need,
and if they aren't then let's make them so. But one message I would send to
the IIUG BOD is that any conferences in Europe are expensive for the average
attendee. Unless the csts are reduced the benefit will be outweighed by the
costs of attendance.

So, that was my two pennorth - feel free to shoot me down in flames if you
will.

Regards

Malcolm

[Jean Georges Perrin]

I guess most of this is due to pessimistic old fogeys that can't remember
that Informix has never been capable of marketing its superior database.

I never say IIUG is marketing the database (and it's actually not what we
do).

There is no major announcement in any other database world as well. At least
we had a few, including very innovative solutions and a benchmark recently.

You may not see momentum around the product 'cause you're lost on an island,
I see quite a bit of it and sent facts about it recently.

I am pretty sure the next version is far from being doomed!

(I would not think I'd do that, but...) OTC said it as well. Stop looking at
the half-empty glass, start thinking positively and life will look far
better.

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Malcolm,

The problem with long mails is even worse than with e-mails containing the
wrong subject...

Ok, first the economic model of IIUG is not a subject of this thread. So if
you want to discuss that, start a new one, but things have changed
quuuuiiiite a bit since you were on the Board. I am grateful to you and the
other would created this organization, but the model did change. I am
closing my 4th term on the Board and quite a few things have changed in 4
years.

On the conference, do the math as you want. My wife is less mad at me when I
go to conferences, even if I am NOT PAID while I go, that spending week ends
hacking my unix boxes ;-). I think conferences bring great value.

I also completely disagree on the 40% marketing you say. This might be true
for some conferences, but guess what, that is maybe why IIUG partnered with
IDUG at some point... Have you looked at the program?

If your company thinks it should not invest in you, it may be time you
consider another job!

jgp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-

[Sebastian, Norma J.]

 

i agree with JGP and OTC..... for goodness sakes, we coulda been bought by....... by...... ORACLE !!!!!!!!

 

 

---

From: informix-l...@iiug.org on behalf of Jean Georges Perrin
Sent: Tue 10/3/2006 4:05 PM
To: doubl...@your.com; inform...@iiug.org
Subject: RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,TheNext Informix IDS Release...

I guess most of this is due to pessimistic old fogeys that can't remember
that Informix has never been capable of marketing its superior database.

I never say IIUG is marketing the database (and it's actually not what we
do).

There is no major announcement in any other database world as well. At least
we had a few, including very innovative solutions and a benchmark recently.

You may not see momentum around the product 'cause you're lost on an island,
I see quite a bit of it and sent facts about it recently.

I am pretty sure the next version is far from being doomed!

(I would not think I'd do that, but...) OTC said it as well. Stop looking at
the half-empty glass, start thinking positively and life will look far
better.

jgp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-

> > jgp
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-

> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Informix-list mailing list
> >> Inform...@iiug.org
> >> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

_______________________________________________
Informix-list mailing list
Inform...@iiug.org
http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

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[Double Echo]

Jean Georges Perrin wrote:
> I guess most of this is due to pessimistic old fogeys that can't remember
> that Informix has never been capable of marketing its superior database.
>

Uh, _what_ marketing if any is being done _TODAY_ ?

> I never say IIUG is marketing the database (and it's actually not what we
> do).
>

Interesting observation... just what _does_ the IIUG do? :-/ It appears as
if IBM is depending too much on the illustrious and sanctimonious IIUG to do
something with Informix. A company that is serious about its products will
promote them.

> There is no major announcement in any other database world as well. At least
> we had a few, including very innovative solutions and a benchmark recently.
>

Uh, one press release is not much if anything. There is no buzz, nothing.

> You may not see momentum around the product 'cause you're lost on an island,
> I see quite a bit of it and sent facts about it recently.
>

I see absolutely nothing but for the dribble here in c.d.i. If I didn't
follow this newsgroup I wouldn't know anything about Informix. And I'm
not lost on an island, Informix is the one that is lost not me. I did the
smart thing and transitioned my skills away from Informix, a lost cause,
and am quite happy. But it is a tragedy to see Informix suffer endless
incompetence in the marketing department. It really would be great to
see it have a chance in the market, but I can't see that happening.

> I am pretty sure the next version is far from being doomed!
>

Right. What's the application everyone is hot-to-trot to put on Informix?
Please tell me. Why would a developer use Informix? What's the hook?
Tell me what I can do with Informix that I can't do with something else.
There's no value proposition that I know of for Informix, nothing.

> (I would not think I'd do that, but...) OTC said it as well. Stop looking at
> the half-empty glass, start thinking positively and life will look far
> better.
>

Yes I do look at the glass half full. My billing rate doubled once I left
the Informix family and went on to other disciplines in IT that not only
pay better, they are not a whipping boy for database religious wars or
fodder for Oracle. Nothing to defend anymore, nothing to promote, it
really doesn't matter, nobody cares about Informix anyway, it's done.
Great technology in the bone yard of good intentions and lost causes.

-DE-

[Captain Pedantic]

"malcolm weallans" <malcol...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.22.115990082...@iiug.org...

>> Currently I am sold out to clients at a rate in excess of $1000 per day.

Bloody Hell! P T Barnum was right after all!

>> I can see my wife's reaction if I tell her I'm taking a week off to
>> attend an IBM

conference ...

... and have you seen the price of bunting these days?

>> After all I wanted to talk about the realities of how to
survive disaster recovery and outline some of the reasons why we have failed
to recover from disasters with the promptness that a customer should expect.

I think that *would* make an interesting subject for a presentation.

>> We had a choice between setting an economic membership fee for all
>> members - including those
from the third world where salaries are less than $50 per month

Basingtoke?

[Captain Pedantic]

"Jean Georges Perrin" <j...@iiug.org> wrote in message
news:mailman.25.115990971...@iiug.org...
> Malcolm,

> On the conference, do the math as you want. My wife is less mad at me when
> I
> go to conferences, even if I am NOT PAID while I go, that spending week
> ends
> hacking my unix boxes ;-). I think conferences bring great value.

Er, with respect, and I'm not saying you don't deserve it, but it's easy for
you to say that, isn't it?!

[Obnoxio The Clown]

malcolm weallans said:

> The challenge we all face is how to persuade the powers that be that we
> are
> making a good investment by paying for somebody to attend a conference.
>
> What are the benefits of the conference compared with the cost of
> attendance?
>
> The benefits are that you get to sit though lots of presentations which
> might be relevant to your job function. (I would defy anybody to convince
> me that all marketing presentations are that relevant to the audience but
> that's the cynic in me speaking). From my experience of attending many
> worldwide user conferences, local user group conferences, and Infobahns
> the
> %age of relevant presentations is at most 40%, and is often much less.

Each conference is different, and it's only prudent to be very clear what
the business / technical value of the content will be. I would never
advocate ANYONE to sit down and pay to hear a marketing message, nor do I
believe that it's fair for anyone to ask you to pay to be sold at.

> Even the Chat With The Labs series of webcasts is becoming difficult to
> justify with so much time being spent on the marketing message and so
> little
> time on real technical issues.

Well, then, I think you should make your concern heard. I agree entirely
with what you are saying, and if the lab chat is turning into marketing
BS, then they are wasting your time.

> OK so you can take certification exams - big deal! What is that worth in
> reality.

Agreed 100%.

> OK so you can listen to some of the experienced people talking about the
> product - that is fine for the speakers but if all they do is to
> regurgitate
> information then it is not that beneficial.

Sometimes that can be useful too.

> OK so you can network with other users of the product.
>
> And what about the costs:-
>
> Generally a 5 day conference is now around $2000. The cost of travel and
> accommodation is roughly the same amount unless you are prepared to catch
> flights at ungodly hours and stay in ungodly hotels.
>

> There is also the question of the time away from work. Currently I am

> sold
> out to clients at a rate in excess of $1000 per day.
>

> So a five day conference is realistically going to cost in excess of
> $9000.

Yep.

> I did make enquiries about going to the conference in Vienna, and the
> upcoming one in Anaheim. I was told that if I wanted to attend the

> conference I could do so at my own expense and by using my holidays. I

> can
> see my wife's reaction if I tell her I'm taking a week off to attend an
> IBM

> conference and it's going to cost $9,000. (Those of you that know my wife
> can guess at her reaction). My only alternative is to publicise the name
> of
> my company by doing a presentation. (Wake up David Williams!) But so far
> I
> have submitted a possible presentation to three conferences and had them

> turned down. After all I wanted to talk about the realities of how to

> survive disaster recovery and outline some of the reasons why we have
> failed
> to recover from disasters with the promptness that a customer should
> expect.

> (It really is surprising how many things can go wrong when you try to
> recover - I can spend many hours talking it if you would all like)

And I think it's a pity you haven't had a chance, but keep trying, you may
be lucky some time.

<SNIP>

> The quality of the conference and the relevance of the conference to the
> attendees varies according to the type of organisation that runs it. If
> the
> conference is run by VARs it will be more relevant to people who work for
> VARs. If the conference is run by IBM then it will be more relevant to
> the
> people who work for IBM - and possibly to people who like hearing a
> sanitised message from the supplier. If the conference is run by a group
> of
> enthusiastic amateurs it won't have the same razzamatazz but it might be
> more worthwhile.

Ah! But what you REALLY need is the enthusiastic amateurs, and it seems
that Lester Knutsen seems to have a near-monopoly on those.

> We all have to make the choice and vote with our attendance. If we don't
> attend IBMs conferences they will still run them as some people within IBM
> have budgets to spend, but if we don't attend IDUG/IIUG or local user
> group
> meetings they will inevitably fold.

That is true. But think about the converse: if 100 people (or 100's of
people) attend the IIUG conference (or some other conference with
significant IBM impact), would that not send a stronger message to IBM
about the user community's regard for Informix than a million whingeing
posts on CDI?

> I don't think the BOD should be telling us to attend the IBM conference -
> although I have seen no publicity for it other than from IIUG - but we
> should really consider if the user organised conferences are what we need,
> and if they aren't then let's make them so. But one message I would send

Key phrase, there: if users feel that user organised conferences are what
users need, then users should stop being keyboard warriors and start
organising conferences.

> to
> the IIUG BOD is that any conferences in Europe are expensive for the
> average
> attendee. Unless the csts are reduced the benefit will be outweighed by
> the
> costs of attendance.

I can't disagree with you.

> So, that was my two pennorth - feel free to shoot me down in flames if you
> will.

"Ah am Jean-George, ze fighter pilot and ah alwez go down in flams!" :o)

[Jean Georges Perrin]

No offense - but can u elaborate?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-

[Jean Georges Perrin]

DE - I am ready to discuss and debate anything as long as it's honest and
sincere. I do not see nor feel it is here. This is now "trolling".

[scottishpoet]

The IIUG is an independent organisation and is not run by IBM.

The EMEA User Conference in Vienna is an IIUG event not an IBM event so
I think it is unfair to request that IBM pays for everyone to go.

This is run by the user group as an independent event and IBM provides
support to the user group as requested

The IBM event "IOD" in Southern california is IBM run and is the event
that IBM would chose if they are going to fund people to attend as this
is their event and there agenda.

[Davorin Kremenjas]

Since your previous post was a reaction to mine, I feel I should comment
some more...

> Actually, if you actually read my post you would have noticed that I was
> blasting people for the following:
> 1. Moaning that they had to pay for education;
> 2. Moaning that the IIUG never did anything in Europe and then moaning for
> what they did do when they did it;
> 3. Moaning that there was always something wrong with the education
> offered by the IIUG and other local user groups yet not having the
> gumption to get involved and contribute something themselves.

I couldn't agree more. I saw an agenda, the speakers' names, I'm sure it
will be a great conference, and finally one in Europe.
Of course that such an education event should be paid for. Of course moaning
serves no purpose at all.

Now, here is the irony: Vienna is only a few hours drive from Croatia's
capital, Zagreb, where the most of the Informix users in Croatia are.
I personally know many people (DBA's mainly) who wanted to attend. The truth
is that only one person (in the whole country) was able to go.
One and only reason - the price.
That's not moaning, that's dissapointment.
To quote TBP, if the price was 500 Euros at least few more people would go,
for the same net price.
None of them go to conferences for drinks and food, they do that on weekend
barbecues at home :-)

Yes, finally one great IIUG conference in Europe, almost a walking distance
away, and we still can't go...

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Davorin Kremenjas said:
> To quote TBP, if the price was 500 Euros at least few more people would
> go,
> for the same net price.
> None of them go to conferences for drinks and food, they do that on
> weekend
> barbecues at home :-)

Well, then, why not put together your own conference and organise your own
venues and ask IBM if they will send speakers to attend? Then you can
charge whatever you like ... if anything!

I can't imagine people are paying that kind of money JUST to eat Hilton
food, though.

[Serge Rielau]

Davorin Kremenjas wrote:
> Now, here is the irony: Vienna is only a few hours drive from Croatia's
> capital, Zagreb, where the most of the Informix users in Croatia are.
> I personally know many people (DBA's mainly) who wanted to attend. The truth
> is that only one person (in the whole country) was able to go.

Careful with that truth claim. IDUG are handing out little flags to be
put on the tags for those who like it. And I saw a cluster of at least 4
Croatians together just a few hours ago.
I was neither drunk, nor were my glasses dirty :-)
Nonetheless the lunch is indeed first class and one could have gotten
away cheaper.
Also there is no reason to stay at the Hilton since it's just across the
road from the subway and smack downtown.
Since it's the end of tourist seasons there ought to be tons of bed &
breakfast within a 1hr commute at a more affordable rate.

Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 Solutions Development
IBM Toronto Lab

IOD Conference
http://www.ibm.com/software/data/ondemandbusiness/conf2006/

[Adam Tauno Williams]

> > To quote TBP, if the price was 500 Euros at least few more people would
> > go, for the same net price.
> > None of them go to conferences for drinks and food, they do that on
> > weekend
> > barbecues at home :-)

> Well, then, why not put together your own conference and organise your own
> venues and ask IBM if they will send speakers to attend? Then you can
> charge whatever you like ... if anything!

Yep, and it is surprisingly easy to get presenters from IBM. I've
organized events in the past and found them very cooperative, even
eager, to help. The venues are the hard/expensive part (depending in
part on the insurance regulations in your area).

> I can't imagine people are paying that kind of money JUST to eat Hilton
> food, though.

MMmmmmm, Hilton food....

[Captain Pedantic]

"Serge Rielau" <sri...@ca.ibm.com> wrote in message
news:4ohv3fF...@individual.net...

> Also there is no reason to stay at the Hilton since it's just across the
> road from the subway and smack downtown.

There's a special downtown for smack? Normally we have to go into the
suburbs to get it.

[Double Echo]

My apologies JGP. I have somehow failed you in my communications.

I can honestly say I'm not trolling, whatever that means to the reader, or trying to waste your time or anyone else's.

I have observed over the years that c.d.i typically does not tolerate too much serious debate. Many times in response to some well thought out posts I see people go to all the trouble to reply, and then it's only some passing one-line of text that they took all of what, 30 seconds at the most, to reply, either with stupid, dismissive statements, or just ignorant anger. I've seen a lot of stupid posts, that have no brains behind the poster, so in context I think I'm far from being a troll, whatever that is to you.

In fact, historically, over the years I've tried to engage people in serious discussion, only to be dismissed, disrespected, or ignored. I know that posting here has its own rewards and hazards, but I think if people are serious about the topics and seriously read what some of us are saying, they understand the context, and they understand the history. It's no big deal to post useless banter, or play dismissive games with people, because cheap shots are easy, they don't take any brains, just sarcastic wit. But I think that if someone is serious, they won't try to make themselves look good at someone else's expense. Obviously if I've posted something stupid I am a target for flames, but until somebody explains to me why my simple questions about Informix marketing have no answers other than IBM shelving Informix, I will continue to ask and debate the tragedy and lost-opportunity that I see.

I have to go now, I'm sure I hit the c.d.i. post-limit for a topic, and will hear from the legions of angry readers who want to chat only about technical topics, and how I've infringed on their ability to keep this newsgroup sterile and status quo.

-DE-

[Jerry Hamilton]

"they do that on weekend barbecues at home :-)"

Croatians barbecue???? Really? What do they
barbecue? We here in St. Louis like to barbecue Pork
butt

--- Davorin Kremenjas <davorin....@alfatec.hr>
wrote:

> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Darren...@carmax.com]

Oh Jerry, this is the first time I heard you refer to IBM as pork buts!!
Is it legal in St. Louis to BBQ such creatures?? IBM on a stick sounds
like carnie food to me!

Jerry Hamilton
<bigdaddyjerry@ya
hoo.com> To
Sent by: Davorin Kremenjas
informix-list-bou <davorin....@alfatec.hr>,
nc...@iiug.org inform...@iiug.org
cc

10/04/2006 04:43 Subject
PM Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM

Information On Demand 2006,
The Next Informix IDS Release...

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Double Echo said:
> Many times in response to some well thought out
> posts I see people go to all the trouble to reply, and then it's only some
> passing one-line of text that they took all of what, 30 seconds at the
> most, to reply, either with stupid, dismissive statements, or just
> ignorant anger.

What a load of utter cock.

[Davorin Kremenjas]

> Careful with that truth claim. IDUG are handing out little flags to be put
> on the tags for those who like it. And I saw a cluster of at least 4
> Croatians together just a few hours ago.

DB2 (mainframe) folks, I just checked with the colleague who's there. I
refered just to Informixers previously.
Nevertheless, good advice from Clown. We'll try.

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Please Davorin, don't be racist, those guys also need to eat...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Davorin Kremenjas
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 09:07
> To: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>

[scottishpoet]

As this is an IIUG run event, who do people believe should "pay"?

This is an IDUG / IIUG run event

IIUG board of directors selected the presenters and the topics , not
IBM.

IBM has provided a host of speakers for Informix, many more than it has
provided for DB2.

Would IBM receive less critisism for this event if it did not provide
any support at all?

Davorin, you say there was 1 Informix "user" there from the whole
country.. There were about 4 Croatia flags around the conference. How
many DB2 LUW and DB2 z/OS clients are there in Croatia? Would 3 people
from that client base be a significantly higher proportion? Has this
same cost restricted the DB2 attendance at this event as well as the
Informix attendance?

[malcolm weallans]

John,
I don't think our croatian friend was objecting to having to pay. It's just
that it's a lot of money. I don't know what Croatian salaries are like but
I think they are probably a lot less than a DBA would get in UK. I think
the setting of charges for conferences is rather akin to the problem IIUG
faced when trying to fix a membership fee - which is what led to Informix
subsidising IIUG in the first place.

If you look at the costs from the viewpoint of some of the people that I
knew in Eastern Europe they are getting very low salaries compared to
Western Europe and 2000 Euros is a lot of money. It's certainly a lot of
money to my employers and to my customers. I do understand that the admin
and accommodation costs are high, especially if they use top drawe
conference venues but if we want to be an inclusive user group we have to
consider that.

The fact that there were a few people there from Croatia is not at all
surprising. I was very surprised when I found that some of my contacts from
Eastern Europe had managed to get to visit one of the Worldwide(America
only!) User Group conferences that were run in the Informix days. When I
asked them how they afforded it I discovered that the local Informix office
had paid a lot towards it. I could never get that confirmed by Informix
though.

Generally I think the IIUG must look at the issues of how much people can
afford to pay for a conference, how far they are prepared to travel, and how
often they want to have them. It seems crazy to me that we have IBM
Information on Demand in the same month as IIUG/IDUG in Europe. Surely that
is going to dilute the attendance at the IDUG/IIUG event as it doesn't cost
as much to fly to Anaheim and stay in a non-conference hotel as it would to
fly to Vienna. I know I've checked this out thoroughly. I could have got a
fly-drive package to Anaheim for less than I could get a similar package to
Vienna. And I would certainly have preferred to go to the IBM event rather
than an IIUG/IDUG event.

And not all people can get the time away from work either. I could have
used holiday if I could have borne the cost myself, but in the end financial
factors swayed my decision not to go to either event.

Regards

Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-l...@iiug.org]
On Behalf Of scottishpoet
Sent: 06 October 2006 16:07
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
Next Informix IDS Release...

_______________________________________________

[scottishpoet]

> I don't think our croatian friend was objecting to having to pay. It's just
> that it's a lot of money. I don't know what Croatian salaries are like but
> I think they are probably a lot less than a DBA would get in UK.

Sorry maybe I wasn't as clear as I hoped.

I guess the price was set by IDUG and IIUG couldn't really say to the
Informix clients it is $500 if IDUG charged $2000. I believe IIUG
offered higher discounts for early bookers but that may be wrong.
Interesting to see that few people even took those discounts up.

Hence my question if it was as unaffordable for the DB2 clients and its
not just an IIUG problem

[Obnoxio The Clown]

malcolm weallans said:
>
> Generally I think the IIUG must look at the issues of how much people can

> is going to dilute the attendance at the IDUG/IIUG event as it doesn't
> cost
> as much to fly to Anaheim and stay in a non-conference hotel as it would
> to
> fly to Vienna. I know I've checked this out thoroughly. I could have got
> a
> fly-drive package to Anaheim for less than I could get a similar package
> to
> Vienna. And I would certainly have preferred to go to the IBM event

I've just checked, I can get a flight from London to Vienna for less than
90 quid. Are you telling me you can get a flight from London to LAX AND a
car for less than 90 quid?

> rather
> than an IIUG/IDUG event.

Why? All you'd get is DB2 sold at you.

> And not all people can get the time away from work either.

Hell yes, how inconsiderate of IDUG to run a conference when people can't
get off work.

[Jean Georges Perrin]

In Vienna the shuttle from Airport to the Hilton was 9 euros, in Anaheim the
Super Shuttle is about $13 (I have some discounts if anyone is interested).
So comparing the two on the taxi fare is quite a nice way to compare
conferences ;-)...

I have been to quite a few of them now; people from Europe don't go to the
US easily.

But I am tired at bitching for pennies. People I have discussed with (both
Informix and DB2) really enjoyed the conference and nobody (there)
complained about the price.

Malcolm, if you want to do something like what Lester is doing in the US,
the whole Board of IIUG will be behind you, we will help you find sponsors,
attendees and speakers. No problem! Just start the dam thing...

jgp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-

> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Obnoxio The Clown
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 20:24
> To: malcolm weallans
> Cc: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>
>

[Neil Truby]

"scottishpoet" <dryb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160157242.5...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

A discount of 235 euros (about 12%) was offered for early bookers. If one
were to be picky, which I never am,one might point out that the 235 Euro
discount was trumpeted in enormous type in many mails, whereas you had to
click through about 5 links to find out what was the actual registration
price. Almost as if they were embarrassed about the price, but perhaps
that's just a style of marketing which Europeans are unused to ...

Very good point about the same price being applied to DB2 users. My hunch
would be that it comes down to the much more secure feeling that DB2 users
have about IBM's commitment to their product, through extensive advertising,
marketing etc. I'm afraid that end of the day all roads lead back to this
point.

[Paul Watson]

I attended the organising teams post-conference debrief, the US IDUG
team and Event organisers reckoned this conference was better organised
and run more smoothly than the US conferences.

The Informix attendees I spoke to, and yes there wasn't a whole load,
claimed it was a more 'technical' conference than the US. The IIUG
delivered the content that the Informix community had told us they
wanted. Why didn't we have more attendees, was it cost of the
conference (maybe), cost of getting there (doubt it), the fact the venue
and date kept changing (maybe) or just Informix community apathy
(probably)

Paul Watson
Tel: +44 1414161772
Mob: +44 7818003457
Web: www.oninit.com

GO FURTHER with DB2
GET THERE FASTER with Informix.
Attend IDUG 2007 San Jose, North America
May 6-10, 2006
Visit http://www.iiug.org/conf for more information.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Obnoxio The Clown [mailto:obn...@serendipita.com]
> Posted At: 06 October 2006 13:24
> Posted To: comp.databases.informix
> Conversation: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On
> Demand 2006,The Next Informix IDS Release...
> Subject: RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On
> Demand 2006,The Next Informix IDS Release...
>
>
>

[Davorin Kremenjas]

"malcolm weallans" <malcol...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.74.116015245...@iiug.org...

> John,
> I don't think our croatian friend was objecting to having to pay. It's
> just
> that it's a lot of money. I don't know what Croatian salaries are like
> but
> I think they are probably a lot less than a DBA would get in UK.

Exactly.
I wish I said these few sentences as clear as you did, it would cause much
less confusion.

[Jean Georges Perrin]

I also agree with Malcolm, however it is very very complex to set a system
like that. what would be the reference? UK having an index of 100? Belgium 80?
Croatia 30? France (well you need to pay them to make them move)...

Another comment was that there are less tracks for Informix than DB2, so
should we price proportionnally?

IIUG can take all those positive and constructive ideas and propose some
changes to IDUG.

jgp

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:11:54 +0200, Davorin Kremenjas wrote

> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

--
jgp

[scottishpoet]

if the attendance had been high from the Informix community in the Uk
and low from Croatia this may explain why

As the attendance was just as low from the UK...

[malcolm weallans]

Jean Georges, I don't think it is a question of setting an index and pricing
according to where the people come from. That would generate a big market
in paper companies ostensibly based in the poorest country of the world.
But this is exactly the same problem that we had in trying to fix a
membership fee for IIUG - oh so many years ago.

What we really need to consider - as a newsgroup and as IIUG - is that we
have a diverse audience. Some may be prepared to pay to attend conferences
- others might find financing such a venture difficult. Some might have
ample time to attend conferences. Some are managing a number of IDS servers
single-handedly and our absence needs a lot of justification. Some want
highly technical presentations to justify the expense of both time and
money. Some would be lost with these advanced topics and would like to have
lower level presentations.

It has been commented that there weren't many UK informix users at the
conference as well as a shortage of croatians. It would be worth seeing
figures of the numbers of attendees from each country and for proper
comparison how many licences have been sold in those countries and the
average salary of a DBA in those countries and even how many IIUG members
there are in those countries. Perhaps the IIUG could try to publish those
figures. I am sure it would be an interesting exercise collecting the data
:-)

But being realistic the apathy towards Informix is a major factor. I can't
persuade the powers that be to let me attend an Informix conference - but if
it was Microsoft....

Regards

Malcolm

-----Original Message-----
From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-l...@iiug.org]
On Behalf Of Jean Georges Perrin
Sent: 09 October 2006 12:22
To: Davorin Kremenjas; inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
Next Informix IDS Release...

I also agree with Malcolm, however it is very very complex to set a system
like that. what would be the reference? UK having an index of 100? Belgium
80? Croatia 30? France (well you need to pay them to make them move)...

Another comment was that there are less tracks for Informix than DB2, so
should we price proportionnally?

IIUG can take all those positive and constructive ideas and propose some
changes to IDUG.

jgp

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:11:54 +0200, Davorin Kremenjas wrote

> "malcolm weallans" <malcol...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.74.116015245...@iiug.org...
> > John,
> > I don't think our croatian friend was objecting to having to pay.
> > It's
> > just
> > that it's a lot of money. I don't know what Croatian salaries are like
> > but
> > I think they are probably a lot less than a DBA would get in UK.
>
> Exactly.
> I wish I said these few sentences as clear as you did, it would
> cause much less confusion.
>

[Captain Pedantic]

"malcolm weallans" <malcol...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message

news:mailman.88.116041963...@iiug.org...

>> Jean Georges, I don't think it is a question of setting an index and
>> pricing
according to where the people come from.

The real question we shuld be addressing is scottishpoet's: Why is the same
"pricing too high" objection not being voiced by the DB2 attendees?

>> But being realistic the apathy towards Informix is a major factor. I
>> can't
persuade the powers that be to let me attend an Informix conference - but if
it was Microsoft....

And this, I fear, is the answer. IBM is reaping what is has sown in its
failure - and make no mistake, its continued failure, no matter what
half-hearted measures you may read - to promote Informix. This will change
if, and only, if, IBM promotes Informix to new customers, and gives it the
profile accorded DB2.

[Paul Watson]

The DB2 people are saying it's too expensive

Paul Watson
Tel: +44 1414161772
Mob: +44 7818003457
Web: www.oninit.com

GO FURTHER with DB2
GET THERE FASTER with Informix.
Attend IDUG 2007 San Jose, North America
May 6-10, 2006
Visit http://www.iiug.org/conf for more information.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Captain Pedantic [mailto:theharl...@hotmail.com]
> Posted At: 09 October 2006 14:29
> Posted To: comp.databases.informix
> Conversation: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On
> Demand 2006,The Next Informix IDS Release...
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On
> Demand 2006,The Next Informix IDS Release...
>
>

[Double Echo]

If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher. Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for Oracle and DB2.

[Serge Rielau]

Double Echo wrote:
> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more
> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
> Oracle and DB2.

Pre-emptive strike: DB2 has three code bases (iSeries, zOS and
Linux/Unix/Windows).

I don't believe in this correlation.... Does MS have a dedicated SQL
Server conference to begin with?

Cheers
serge

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Double Echo said:
> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more
> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
> Oracle and DB2.

Pure class!

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Serge Rielau said:
> Double Echo wrote:
>> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more
>> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
>> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
>> Oracle and DB2.
> Pre-emptive strike: DB2 has three code bases (iSeries, zOS and
> Linux/Unix/Windows).
>
> I don't believe in this correlation.... Does MS have a dedicated SQL
> Server conference to begin with?

Germans: no sense of humour.
Canadians: no sense of humour.
Canadian Germans: ...

[Madison Pruet]

Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
> Serge Rielau said:
>> Double Echo wrote:

>>
>> I don't believe in this correlation.... Does MS have a dedicated SQL
>> Server conference to begin with?
>
> Germans: no sense of humour.
> Canadians: no sense of humour.
> Canadian Germans: ...

Double negatives - make a positive..... ;-)

>

[Sebastian, Norma J.]

Actually yes, SQL Server has a dedicated conference

http://www.sqlpass.org/events/summit06/index.cfm

2006 PASS Community Summit
November 14-17, 2006
Washington State Convention & Trade Center
Seattle, Washington
The LARGEST Microsoft SQL Server event heads back to Seattle in
2006!

-----Original Message-----
From: informix-l...@iiug.org
[mailto:informix-l...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Serge Rielau
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:27 PM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,
The NextInformix IDS Release...

Double Echo wrote:
> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines
more
> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
> Oracle and DB2.
Pre-emptive strike: DB2 has three code bases (iSeries, zOS and
Linux/Unix/Windows).

I don't believe in this correlation.... Does MS have a dedicated SQL

Server conference to begin with?

Cheers
serge

--
Serge Rielau
DB2 Solutions Development
IBM Toronto Lab

IOD Conference
http://www.ibm.com/software/data/ondemandbusiness/conf2006/

_______________________________________________
Informix-list mailing list
Inform...@iiug.org
http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

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or agent responsible for delivering this message to the
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============================================================

[Jean Georges Perrin]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-

> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 23:35
> To: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, The
> NextInformix IDS Release...
>

...

>
> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more
> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
> Oracle and DB2.

Better read that than be blind!

Have you seen what Oracle is selling? No wonder Oracle expo is bigger. It
would be like IBM (THE Company) would make only ONE conference every year.

[Jean Georges Perrin]

And it's $2200 :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Sebastian, Norma J.
> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 03:38
> To: Serge Rielau; inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> NextInformix IDS Release...
>
>

> Actually yes, SQL Server has a dedicated conference
>
> http://www.sqlpass.org/events/summit06/index.cfm
>
> 2006 PASS Community Summit
> November 14-17, 2006
> Washington State Convention & Trade Center
> Seattle, Washington
> The LARGEST Microsoft SQL Server event heads back to Seattle in
> 2006!
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org
> [mailto:informix-l...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Serge Rielau

> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:27 PM
> To: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,
> The NextInformix IDS Release...
>

> Double Echo wrote:
> > If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines
> more
> > people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
> > Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
> > Oracle and DB2.

[Sebastian, Norma J.]

somehow I doubt there's much price haggling over it.

not saying it's right/wrong/good/bad.....

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Malcolm, first understand I have a lot of respect with what you have been
doing for the Informix community.

Having said that, I fully disagree with you on many points.

Informix is not in "apathy mode". It sure is not as "brilliant" as in early
1997 when Informix corp was cumulating about a quarter of Oracle's revenue.
But some did errors and things have changed. However, apathy or anemic are
certainly NOT how I'd describe the Informix world today! Are you related to
DE?

The conference had poor attendance: it was the first ever in Europe. Even
IFMX did not do one in the glorious (new) era.

Price is high: I will not disclose numbers (which I do not have ;-) ) but
IDUG is *not* making a lot of money on European events. IIUG (blame us if
you will) is not doing ANY money.

Volunteers: the conference in Vienna, from the IIUG standpoint, is manned by
volunteers, this include Gary & Paul. If we had 10 times these guys, we'd
probably be able to make a cheap conference in my garage... (and along side
with my "cave", we could do two tracks, we would even be able to set up a
hands on lab on my systems...).

And please don't find the excuse of "no time"... I am on a contract, so even
if I can access those conferences at "a preferred rate", it means no income
during the week. And going to 3 or 4 conferences a year does not bring you
knowledge: one or two yes, no more knowledge because you double the time
spent in the same type of conference. And I am not an Informix consultant,
so I am not even chasing customers there.

Please all, stop moaning and complaining, IIUG is looking for volunteers...

(and it's not all directed at Malcolm).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of malcolm weallans
> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 20:54
> To: 'Jean Georges Perrin'; 'Davorin Kremenjas'; inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: RE: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006, The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>

> Jean Georges, I don't think it is a question of setting an index and
> pricing

> according to where the people come from. That would generate a big market
> in paper companies ostensibly based in the poorest country of the world.
> But this is exactly the same problem that we had in trying to fix a
> membership fee for IIUG - oh so many years ago.
>
> What we really need to consider - as a newsgroup and as IIUG - is that we
> have a diverse audience. Some may be prepared to pay to attend
> conferences
> - others might find financing such a venture difficult. Some might have
> ample time to attend conferences. Some are managing a number of IDS
> servers
> single-handedly and our absence needs a lot of justification. Some want
> highly technical presentations to justify the expense of both time and
> money. Some would be lost with these advanced topics and would like to
> have
> lower level presentations.
>
> It has been commented that there weren't many UK informix users at the
> conference as well as a shortage of croatians. It would be worth seeing
> figures of the numbers of attendees from each country and for proper
> comparison how many licences have been sold in those countries and the
> average salary of a DBA in those countries and even how many IIUG members
> there are in those countries. Perhaps the IIUG could try to publish those
> figures. I am sure it would be an interesting exercise collecting the
> data
> :-)
>

> But being realistic the apathy towards Informix is a major factor. I
> can't
> persuade the powers that be to let me attend an Informix conference - but
> if
> it was Microsoft....
>

> Regards
>
> Malcolm

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org]

> On Behalf Of Jean Georges Perrin
> Sent: 09 October 2006 12:22

> To: Davorin Kremenjas; inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand 2006,The
> Next Informix IDS Release...
>
>
>

> I also agree with Malcolm, however it is very very complex to set a system
> like that. what would be the reference? UK having an index of 100? Belgium
> 80? Croatia 30? France (well you need to pay them to make them move)...
>
> Another comment was that there are less tracks for Informix than DB2, so
> should we price proportionnally?
>
> IIUG can take all those positive and constructive ideas and propose some
> changes to IDUG.
>
> jgp
>

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:11:54 +0200, Davorin Kremenjas wrote

> > "malcolm weallans" <malcol...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message

> > news:mailman.74.116015245...@iiug.org...
> > > John,
> > > I don't think our croatian friend was objecting to having to pay.
> > > It's
> > > just
> > > that it's a lot of money. I don't know what Croatian salaries are
> like
> > > but
> > > I think they are probably a lot less than a DBA would get in UK.
> >
> > Exactly.
> > I wish I said these few sentences as clear as you did, it would
> > cause much less confusion.
> >

> > _______________________________________________
> > Informix-list mailing list
> > Inform...@iiug.org
> > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
>
>

> --
> jgp

[Serge Rielau]

Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
> Serge Rielau said:
>> Double Echo wrote:
>>> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more
>>> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
>>> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
>>> Oracle and DB2.
>> Pre-emptive strike: DB2 has three code bases (iSeries, zOS and
>> Linux/Unix/Windows).
>>
>> I don't believe in this correlation.... Does MS have a dedicated SQL
>> Server conference to begin with?
>
> Germans: no sense of humour.
> Canadians: no sense of humour.
> Canadian Germans: ...
>

Are you saying DE is a humorous guy? If so his sense of humor is indeed
lost on me. Irony doesn't work when it's covered my ranting.

Cheers
Serge

PS: I'm not Canadian. I'm French-German.

[Double Echo]

The big question is, what does the conference really buy you in the market?

Just because Walmart and a few other companies are keeping the Informix lights
on doesn't mean the product has a real future. If you can't build a developer
base, all you have is a database engine. Look at all the great technology
projects over the years that were the "superior" choice, but nobody cared.
Unless Informix differentiates itself in the market with some kind of application
that works with the database, it's a big nothing. Just nothing.

Try this one in google: Thinking Machines . That one is really amazing. All
gone now, great technology, with a great future... bwahahahaaaaaaa! 8-)

[Double Echo]

Serge Rielau wrote:
> Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
>> Serge Rielau said:
>>> Double Echo wrote:
>>>> If Informix only had one code base like the other database engines more
>>>> people would buy it and the conference attendance would be higher.
>>>> Microsoft == one code base == high conference attendance. Same for
>>>> Oracle and DB2.
>>> Pre-emptive strike: DB2 has three code bases (iSeries, zOS and
>>> Linux/Unix/Windows).
>>>
>>> I don't believe in this correlation.... Does MS have a dedicated SQL
>>> Server conference to begin with?
>>
>> Germans: no sense of humour.
>> Canadians: no sense of humour.
>> Canadian Germans: ...
>>
> Are you saying DE is a humorous guy? If so his sense of humor is indeed
> lost on me. Irony doesn't work when it's covered my ranting.
>
> Cheers
> Serge
>
> PS: I'm not Canadian. I'm French-German.

It _was_ actually a joke Serge, for smart people.

[Jean Georges Perrin]

I am lost! How can you compare Informix, a database technology, with
artificial intelligence?

The path of your thinking is really strange to me.

Your mail is the same kind of usual rambling, then you divert on AI. This is
how you want to convince than Informix is anemic? Come on! You can surely do
better than that!

Or go comp.lang.prolog...

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Serge Rielau said:
> Are you saying DE is a humorous guy?

Not always. But in this particular case...

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Malcolm,

You completely miss the point when you think I tried to minimize your role &
commitment to Informix!

I started my mail with:

> Malcolm, first understand I have a lot of respect with what you have
> been doing for the Informix community.

Then, we can disagree, can't we?

Where do you see the offense to the person "Malcolm Weallans"?

jgp

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:24:35 +0100, malcolm weallans wrote
> Jean Georges,
> I am very upset my your remarks about my commitment to Informix. I have
> been working with the product for 20 years. How many others can say
> that? I have also put many years into running user groups here in
> the UK and internationally. I also put lots of my own time and
> money into working with local groups and IIUG over a number of
> years. But I am also altruistic. I want to help others. I have
> never made any money out of all these ventures. And I really
> understand why there are problems with selling conferences to DBAs,
> especially Informix DBAs. The salaries are lower than DB2 DBAs.
> The jobs are not that highly respected in their own companies -
> Informix is the past not the future. I have been telling it "how
> it is" from my viewpoint and trying to support the people who are
> less fortunate than us in the relatively affluent west. If only some
> more members of the IIUG board would really think - what is it like
> to earn $50 per month for being a DBA or developer. I've met people who
> were on those salaries.
> So before you go slagging me off in public I would suggest we should
> meet face to face - or if you prefer fist to fist.

> > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Informix-list mailing list
> > Inform...@iiug.org
> > http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-
> list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list

--
jgp

[Serge Rielau]

Double Echo wrote:
> It _was_ actually a joke Serge, for smart people.
>

Ah. that's called arrogance. Am I right?

Cheers
Serge

[Obnoxio The Clown]

malcolm weallans said:
> Jean Georges,
> I am very upset my your remarks about my commitment to Informix. I have

And well you should be ... if he had made any remarks about your
commitment to Informix. I read his post and found no such remarks. Could
you please point them out to me?

> been working with the product for 20 years. How many others can say that?

I can't. But I can say 23 years.

> So before you go slagging me off in public I would suggest we should meet
> face to face - or if you prefer fist to fist.

Try decaf or getting laid. I didn't see him slagging you off, and if I
didn't think higher of you, I'd be certain you were a troll. "Fist to
fist", Jesus, at your age. <shakes head>

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Serge Rielau said:
> Double Echo wrote:
>> It _was_ actually a joke Serge, for smart people.
>>
> Ah. that's called arrogance. Am I right?

No, that's called "sarcasm".

But do keep trying. :o)

[Serge Rielau]

Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
> Serge Rielau said:
>> Double Echo wrote:
>>> It _was_ actually a joke Serge, for smart people.
>>>
>> Ah. that's called arrogance. Am I right?
>
> No, that's called "sarcasm".

*damn*Well, at least I know now why I didn't get the joke.

Thanks DE and OTC.

[Double Echo]

Jean Georges Perrin wrote:
> I am lost! How can you compare Informix, a database technology, with
> artificial intelligence?
>

I had actually been lulled into thinking that you were capable of thinking outside the Informix box. But I see that I am indeed wrong. On this I am sure.

Thinking Machines ( the company ) was carved up and split off between Sun and Oracle. God only knows what they did with the parts, but the point, obviously lost on you, was that this was great technology that simply did not make it in its present form.

Informix, great technology, but for whatever reason will not make it--at least in its present form. The Connection Machines developed by Thinking Machines where way ahead of their time, just like Informix.

DB2 is now enjoying the fruits of Informix labor, and Informix to some degree is enjoying some of the technology from DB2, such as better buffer pool management. But IBM knows they can get most of their sales from 20% of the Informix base, thusly this is why they don't give a rats ass about marketing it. As it dies a slow and tragic death, IBM will simply continue to offer DB2 like a robot offering tea.

> The path of your thinking is really strange to me.
>

It's early for you. When you get 5-10 years away from actually using Informix it will become easier for you. This will soon be possible when Informix slides off into the abyss.

> Your mail is the same kind of usual rambling, then you divert on AI. This is
> how you want to convince than Informix is anemic? Come on! You can surely do
> better than that!
>

I appreciate your challenge. Like you I persist here in c.d.i, for apparently no other reason than the pointless, hopeless hope that there is a twinkle of intelligence at IBM that is reading here, and will wake up and Informix will start to be marketed and really advertised. In my misguided zeal, I somehow think that somebody will resurrect this product and really make it fly. But deep down inside I know it's a lost cause. Probably the same kind of problem people have with quitting smoking, it's difficult.

[Sebastian, Norma J.]

And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could
leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the
potential !

don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing
informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have
20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called
sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force.

[Double Echo]

Sebastian, Norma J. wrote:
> And here I thought there was some momentum building that we could
> leverage and sell fist-fight tickets at conference..... oh the
> potential !
>
> don't mean to be overly asinine or humorous..... I have been doing
> informix stuff (4gl, db, etc) for 15 years and I love it, but I have
> 20-odd years to go in IT........ I have seen the light and it's called
> sqlserver2005. that'll be the bat that hits oracle with force.
>
>

I _had_ used Informix since 1987, first with CISAM, then 4GL. Tons of
code, billable, and smart business solutions. But in going through the
seven stages of grief, I'm now really past Informix, at least from a
career perspective. Never ever will I bet on that horse again for my
family's sake as well as my own. I haven't moved on with the idea that
if the product were given a decent chance it would be quite competitive.

As to SQLServer2005, I think before you get too lathered up about it
you will find that working on Windows Server is painful after working on
Linux or UNIX. It is a much improved product over its predecessors,
but still only runs on Windows. Of course your family doesn't really
care, the billable for SQLServer is as good if not better than Informix
anyway, so what does it matter. All the top tier products are driven
by applications, and today, most of IT is too young to know the difference.

Most kids today don't really dig into the internals enough to know anything about
which product is better or worse. They just tell management to buy
faster hardware and suffer, as long as it's got a GUI that works in
Windows XP. Just keep that app running, even with all it's twisted
SQL, and make sure the backups are working. Oracle? Oh yeah, that's on the
other machine, and they have Oracle people for that app. It's all about
the application.

[Martin Fuerderer]

DE wrote:
> I _had_ used Informix since 1987, first with CISAM, then 4GL. Tons of
> code, billable, and smart business solutions. But in going through the
> seven stages of grief, I'm now really past Informix, at least from a
> career perspective. Never ever will I bet on that horse again for my
> family's sake as well as my own. I haven't moved on with the idea that
> if the product were given a decent chance it would be quite competitive.

As you will never bet on informix again, you have bet on different horses?

And that's why you have to spend so much energy in this forum (news
group) to make sure that Informix will never get near winning
again, because that would mean you could loose your current bets?

If Informix would be as dead as you pronounce it, why would you then
again and again have to state the obvious with so much effort?
In your place I wouldn't even bother anymore. The effort that you put
in here somehow contradicts what you seem so convinced of.

With what idea have you then moved on?
I guess your last sentence above doesn't really make a lot of sense.
You wanted to say "I hadn't moved on with ..."?
Sometimes a single letter makes quite a difference ... ;)

Cheers,
Martin
--

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Double Echo said:

> DB2 is now enjoying the fruits of Informix labor, and Informix to some
> degree is enjoying some of the technology from DB2, such as better buffer
> pool management.

I'd suggest "different" rather than "better", perhaps.

> But IBM knows they can get most of their sales from 20%
> of the Informix base, thusly this is why they don't give a rats ass about
> marketing it. As it dies a slow and tragic death, IBM will simply
> continue to offer DB2 like a robot offering tea.

Actually, that's not entirely the problem. Well, not in the UK. IBM
doesn't seem to do ANY product marketing in the UK, as far as I can tell.
I mean, I don't read every single possible publication or anything, but
just going by their TV advertising, I think their marketing department has
ingested the entire cocaine production from Columbia for the last five
years. The advert is one of these fluffy, content-free, feel-good things
with the tagline "What makes you special?", to which I always reply, in a
mong-like voice, "My needs". Farking idiots.

ANYWAY, the point of it all is that the only thing IBM sees fit to market
is IBM as a whole or the various brands at a very vague and amorphous
level. Hence, DB2 advertising (if it still exists) will not actually tell
you anything about DB2, just that such a thing exists. However, I suspect
that if you did find any IBM data management adverts, they would probably
say nothing much at all other than "IBM sells some kinds of data
management stuff".

To a certain extent, I can almost sympathise with their problem, which is
basically: "how the f*ck do you professionally and intelligently market
20,000 different pieces of software?"

Things may have been different for DB2 in the days of Janet Perna who had
skin in the DB2 game and had her own emotional reasons for marketing and
selling DB2 *as a product* but there is no-one that high up in the brand
with any skin in the game, it now becomes standard amorphous IBM
marketing.

The upside for IDS is that the new guy seems to be thinking only with his
wallet, and that means that if enough users get together and gang up on
him and say, very clearly, that marketing IDS distinctly will lead to
revenue gains, you may well get your wish.

> I appreciate your challenge. Like you I persist here in c.d.i, for
> apparently no other reason than the pointless, hopeless hope that there is
> a twinkle of intelligence at IBM that is reading here, and will wake up
> and Informix will start to be marketed and really advertised.

See above.

[Double Echo]

Martin Fuerderer wrote:
> DE wrote:
>> I _had_ used Informix since 1987, first with CISAM, then 4GL. Tons of
>> code, billable, and smart business solutions. But in going through the
>> seven stages of grief, I'm now really past Informix, at least from a
>> career perspective. Never ever will I bet on that horse again for my
>> family's sake as well as my own. I haven't moved on with the idea that
>> if the product were given a decent chance it would be quite competitive.
>
> As you will never bet on informix again, you have bet on different horses?
>

Other products continue to feed my family, Informix does not. I barely
note it on my resume anymore.

> And that's why you have to spend so much energy in this forum (news
> group) to make sure that Informix will never get near winning
> again, because that would mean you could loose your current bets?
>

I hope it does succeed, but I'm convinced it will not. It is tragic.
There seems to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Informix will
never be anything more than just a "legacy" product, as only a handful
of customers are using it. But I don't think I spend that much energy
in this newsgroup, it only looks that way because most of the people
here that post anything, don't go beyond one or two sentences.

> If Informix would be as dead as you pronounce it, why would you then
> again and again have to state the obvious with so much effort?

It is no effort to continue living with a bad habit. And as long as the
bandwidth is unlimited, I can say whatever I want. Besides, if you see
the denial of reality here, it is astonishing. It's difficult not to
speak up.

> In your place I wouldn't even bother anymore. The effort that you put
> in here somehow contradicts what you seem so convinced of.
>

I couldn't agree more. It is a huge contradiction, a conflict in my
life. :-)

> With what idea have you then moved on?
> I guess your last sentence above doesn't really make a lot of sense.
> You wanted to say "I hadn't moved on with ..."?
> Sometimes a single letter makes quite a difference ... ;)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> --
>

You are so correct. As I stated, it's like quitting smoking. You want
to stop but it's very very difficult. You know it's bad for you, it has
no redeeming quality and yet you smoke anyway. Informix is a bad habit
for me, I don't get any benefits out of it, yet I hope against hope that
somebody with some competence inside IBM will do the right thing and market this
product. But I know it's a lost cause.

[Double Echo]

Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
>
> The upside for IDS is that the new guy seems to be thinking only with his
> wallet, and that means that if enough users get together and gang up on
> him and say, very clearly, that marketing IDS distinctly will lead to
> revenue gains, you may well get your wish.
>

The product should be renamed. I was thinking Phoenix, since the product
has risen from the ashes so many times. It would get to keep the "ix" for
sentimentality. But seriously this dog needs a new name, and a new image.
Informix is a name that is synonymous with "loser".

[mark.s...@gmail.com]

I remember back in the 80's...i bought the book about the Connection
Machine architecture. Yes - it was way ahead of it's time. And yes (I
hate to admit), I agree with DE - the technology was lost amongst the
technologists...it had nothing to do with how good it was. Much like
us.

Some points:

1. it's not a technology battle - never has been. Has very little to do
with the problem right now. If it were a technology battle, we'd all be
driving Subaru's or Toyota's, not GM cars. (I come from a GM family, so
I can say that without regret).

2. Don't wait on IBM with respect to Informix. Stay focused on what you
can do to continue it's life. I believe we have quite a few years ahead
of Informix work - not so much new clients, but within a loyal
installed base. Sad, but true.

3. IDS 10.5 will bring some great features - many of you will hear
about them next week at conference. Pat folks like John, Johnathon and
Madison on the back for staying the course.

4. I have been very busy - almost 100% of the time - with Informix
clients since joining Xtivia. And I'm not the only one - others on the
staff as well.

5. One of the best contributions the tech crowds can make is to publish
articles about how the Informix product helps your site, is easy
to...whatever. Many will say "I don't have time..." - apparently a few
of us have "enough time" to post here endlessly. Take that time and
energy and route it into an article or paper from a technical
point-of-view. Helps to start a buzz. (And please - no more articles
that say "I was writing 4GL in 1983....").

Volunteer to help the IIUG as JGP has stated. It's time for some new
blood there. I certainly would hope we have a changing of the guard to
get some new inputs and fresh perspectives. I see JGP as a candidate
for the next Prez, but that's just me. He still has the enthusiasm and
energy needed there - and he is connected to the client base in
numerous ways. This is important.

Thanks -
Mark Scranton
Informix 1995-2006

[mark.s...@gmail.com]

And yes...on the "better buffer pool mgmt" - in 9.4 we built a hybrid
of the approach that IDS has used (LRUS) to manage the potential
victims, and DB2 has used (FIFO) to manage the hot pages. Pages can
migrate from "either side" depending on popularity. There were benefits
to both, so we combined them.

Mark

[Sebastian, Norma J.]

Mark,
We will continue this off-line....

1) I have presented at IIUG/Chicago
2) I submitted to present at nationals in May 2007. I might not be
migrated to DB2 by then. Winning the battle to stay with IBM products
was indeed a battle, people didn't want to go to DB2 either.
3) kudo's to the IBMers involved in IIUG/Chicago for creating a warm
atmosphere to encourage my involvement.... I am taking them up on it.

How many of us manage Informix under purchased software packages? If
said software packages don't run on Informix, it doesn't matter how
great Informix is now does it?
I can't stay with Informix under SAP, but I won the internal battle to
stay in the IBM fold (we chose DB2). The second and very close choice
was sqlserver2005, no, not oracle.

It is not the qualities or failings of any particular database package
that makes/breaks deals..... you tell me how I can win a vote for
Informix the next time a software application is being considered (and
the software app does not port to Informix)?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Norma Jean

-----Original Message-----
From: informix-l...@iiug.org
[mailto:informix-l...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of
mark.s...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:27 PM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand
2006,TheNextInformix IDS Release...

I remember back in the 80's...i bought the book about the Connection
Machine architecture. Yes - it was way ahead of it's time. And yes (I
hate to admit), I agree with DE - the technology was lost amongst the
technologists...it had nothing to do with how good it was. Much like
us.

Some points:

1. it's not a technology battle - never has been. Has very little to do
with the problem right now. If it were a technology battle, we'd all be
driving Subaru's or Toyota's, not GM cars. (I come from a GM family, so
I can say that without regret).

2. Don't wait on IBM with respect to Informix. Stay focused on what you
can do to continue it's life. I believe we have quite a few years ahead
of Informix work - not so much new clients, but within a loyal
installed base. Sad, but true.

3. IDS 10.5 will bring some great features - many of you will hear

[Jean Georges Perrin]

Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a
presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it would've been
fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big deal. I
plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.

But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know that by
now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for
"under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to
connect my apps to it...

Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I fall into
wilderness...

[Double Echo]

Jean Georges Perrin wrote:
> Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a
> presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it would've been
> fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big deal. I
> plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.
>
> But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know that by
> now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for
> "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to
> connect my apps to it...
>
> Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I fall into
> wilderness...
>

Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get "fresh blood". You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is no buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious reason to use and develop applications with that database engine. Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer that choice.

[ad...@morrison-ind.com]

>> Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a
>> presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it would've been
>> fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big deal. I
>> plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.>>
>> But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know that by
>> now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for
>> "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to
>> connect my apps to it...
>> Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I fall into
>> wilderness...
> Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates
> some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get
> "fresh blood".

Dude! We *KNOW* this is how you feel. Horse-Dead-Beaten!

> You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that
> Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is
> no buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the
> reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't
> hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious
> reason to use and develop applications with that database engine.

Does it ever occur to you, even for one second, that your experience
is an ancedote - not data. Because Informix has a new release coming
out. We are an Informix user (which means we are still USING Informix
which you continue to repeat you are *NOT*) and we have NO PROBLEM
finding Informix support OR applications that support (or even
recommend) Informix. Sure as hell looks like life to me. Maybe it
doesn't have the numbers of SQL Server 2005 or hOracle, but guess
what? Lots and lots and lots of products that aren't #1, #2, or even
#3, in their niche survive just fine. M$-Word has like 95% of the
word processing market? Does that mean you can't find another word
processor to buy? Nope, there are least a dozen of them. Probably
will continue to be dozens of them.

> Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers
> build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to
> develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer
> that choice.

I know developers writing serious apps that work with Informix -
because the performance is better, the price is lower, and the
administration easier. I guess I should forward all your e-mail to
them so they will realize how foolish they are.

Will Informix be a historical foot note someday? Of course; just
like IPX, LAT, SNA, LISP, CP/M, and myriads of others. So take
comfort that, yes, you will be right someday.

[Double Echo]

ad...@morrison-ind.com wrote:
>>> Mark, once more, you are being nice to me. I am not looking after a
>>> presidential seat on IIUG. I don't expect to be there, thus it
>>> would've been
>>> fun to be the first "extranjero" (read non US) to be there. No big
>>> deal. I
>>> plan to run again and with your support, be reelected.>>
>>> But I like the engine. I am not an engine guy and all should know
>>> that by
>>> now ;-). It is funny when John Miller and I talk, I love his passion for
>>> "under the hood", same for Mark, I am just a superficial man, trying to
>>> connect my apps to it...
>>> Yes, we need volunteers. We need fresh blood, even if that means I
>>> fall into
>>> wilderness...
>> Unless there is some kind of serious developer program that creates
>> some kind of _serious_ interest in the product you won't ever get
>> "fresh blood".
>
> Dude! We *KNOW* this is how you feel. Horse-Dead-Beaten!
>

It's not about how I "feel", it's about reality friend.

>> You have a dwindling base that really cares, and no proof that
>> Informix will ever be anything beyond what it is today. There is no
>> buzz no nothing. Informix is a loser, a nothing, that's the
>> reality. None of the kids I work with ever heard of it, and won't
>> hear about unless there is advertising, marketing, and a serious
>> reason to use and develop applications with that database engine.
>
> Does it ever occur to you, even for one second, that your experience is
> an ancedote - not data.

I would love for you to show me the money.

> Because Informix has a new release coming
> out. We are an Informix user (which means we are still USING Informix
> which you continue to repeat you are *NOT*) and we have NO PROBLEM
> finding Informix support OR applications that support (or even
> recommend) Informix. Sure as hell looks like life to me. Maybe it
> doesn't have the numbers of SQL Server 2005 or hOracle, but guess
> what? Lots and lots and lots of products that aren't #1, #2, or even
> #3, in their niche survive just fine. M$-Word has like 95% of the word
> processing market? Does that mean you can't find another word processor
> to buy? Nope, there are least a dozen of them. Probably will continue
> to be dozens of them.
>

OK. So. Did it ever occur to you how fucking nothing the developer program(s) are for Informix people? It's pathetic. Go seek another product that has developers and you'll see product moving and selling. You understand why, the company has a developer program that not only attracted the developer, they made that conscious, sub-millisecond decision to suddenly pay attention to the product, download it, install it, and then get lathered up enough to develop an application with it.

This is why I speak what I speak and continue to drive home the fact of how fucking futile it is to release a product without a fucking strategy for its fucking success. It's a big fucking nothing right now. It ain't fucking enough to power a fucking flashlight.

Let me illustrate my point, going over-the-fucking-top as usual:

Informix Marketing Commercial: "The Reality Of No Developer Program"

<fade in>

Our scene opens in the suburban jungle of <pick-your-urbanity> where Mr Smith is going through his morning routine to head to work, and suddenly, he gets a knock at the door.

Knock Knock Knock!

Mr. Smith: Who's there?

Delivery Man: "Delivery service... We're here to drop off your engine.".

Mr. Smith: What engine?

Delivery Man: "From Mercedes... it's some kind of 12-cylinder monster...we got it on a pallet...need your signature to accept it...".

Mr. Smith: Coming! <walks to door and opens front door>

Delivery Man: "It's right here... <hands Mr Smith the delivery receipt>

Mr. Smith: I see... you're delivering me an engine..... what am I supposed to do with it exactly?

Delivery Man: "Hell if I know, I just deliver product I... have no idea or uh, well, you know, I don't know anything about it.

Mr. Smith: Well, I don't know either... I'm sorry... I can't accept it...

<walks back, closes door>

<delivery man stands there with dick in hand>

<fade to black>

<titles The End />

>> Applications drive databases, not the other way around. Developers
>> build applications. Developers have to make a choice whether to
>> develop in something that has a future, and Informix doesn't offer
>> that choice.
>
> I know developers writing serious apps that work with Informix - because
> the performance is better, the price is lower, and the administration
> easier. I guess I should forward all your e-mail to them so they will
> realize how foolish they are.
>

Dude I'm on _your_ team, not the enemy. I can't help but notice how well
Oracle and Microsoft are doing, and how they value their developers. I must
somehow be missing the incredible momentum the Informix Developer program is
doing, I don't see the ads and I don't hear anything in the trades. So maybe
you can show me.

> Will Informix be a historical foot note someday? Of course; just like
> IPX, LAT, SNA, LISP, CP/M, and myriads of others. So take comfort that,
> yes, you will be right someday.
>

Sooner than later. :-)

[mark.s...@gmail.com]

dude...

It's like I suggested many, many months ago to you - if you have LOTS
of ideas for changing things, join IBM and try to make a change. Your
ramblings and "the longer it gets the filthier it is" approach only
alienates folks and makes people wonder about "these folks that say
they're dedicated to Informix."

If you wanna be "on this team", statements like "..it can't even power
a flashlight" are just, well, ridiculous.

WHY do you keep beating the "IBM dead horse"? Do you really think that
is going to change? Are you kidding - of course not. I was there. We
tried to get IBM to offer a "free IDS" (for the developer community),
but this idea was beaten down over the potential loss of a few million
$$$ and politics - with no regard to the fact that DB2 has a free
offereing of course. So why do you repeat yourself (repeat yourself
(repeat yourself)) and have a cow over what IBM is not doing? Wasted
energy as I see it.

But there IS a loyal group of "us" that are continuing to work on the
product - 100% of the time - and are doing creative things like:

1) joining the beta program for 10.5 to find out more about the new
features coming out

2) like offering papers and presentations at conferences to help
further educate the community that still needs to know the technical
aspects of the product since they still use it in house....

3) writing tech articles for trade rags to give visibility to the
product, and it's strengths.

4) find employment with a company that has a great handle on alot of
the Informix consulting opportunities out there.

5) Look up every nook and cranny (this one should be fun for OTC to
respond to I'm sure!) for opportunities for spreading the product and
it's presence - when onsite, traveling, and speaking to clients.

Am I disappointed by what HAS happened? Well of course. I was going to
retire at Informix, and enjoy the income from the stock. What happened
is TRAGIC. But statements and rantings like yours does NOTHING to
further the cause.

Get involved with some of the stuff I detailed above. Run for the IIUG
board. Write some papers. Take 1/3 of the time spent on here...and use
it to make a contribution.

Mark Scranton
Informix 1995-2006

[Double Echo]

mark.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> dude...
>
> It's like I suggested many, many months ago to you - if you have LOTS
> of ideas for changing things, join IBM and try to make a change. Your
> ramblings and "the longer it gets the filthier it is" approach only
> alienates folks and makes people wonder about "these folks that say
> they're dedicated to Informix."
>

Where's the download for the uncrippled version?

> If you wanna be "on this team", statements like "..it can't even power
> a flashlight" are just, well, ridiculous.
>

Sad isn't it. It wouldn't take much to pump up the wattage on this puppy.

> WHY do you keep beating the "IBM dead horse"? Do you really think that
> is going to change? Are you kidding - of course not. I was there. We
> tried to get IBM to offer a "free IDS" (for the developer community),
> but this idea was beaten down over the potential loss of a few million
> $$$ and politics - with no regard to the fact that DB2 has a free
> offereing of course. So why do you repeat yourself (repeat yourself
> (repeat yourself)) and have a cow over what IBM is not doing? Wasted
> energy as I see it.
>

Well, it may be wasted to YOU, but what I find interesting is how "less
from the vendor" is suddenly acceptable. I am curious why Oracles' model
or Microsoft's' model produces huge sales for them, and how IBM, in most
if not all situations produces a bunch of nothing in comparison. I am
curious why my younger co-workers don't even know what Informix is.

> But there IS a loyal group of "us" that are continuing to work on the
> product - 100% of the time - and are doing creative things like:
>
> 1) joining the beta program for 10.5 to find out more about the new
> features coming out
>

I don't want to join anything, I just want the download. I'll give
up a certain amount of my personal info for IDS just like I did for DB2 or MySQL
or Sybase or Oracle. I want to tinker with it, and see if it's worth
spending my time on it, so I can find monetary gain from using and
running the software. I'll scope the job sites to see if there's anybody
using it and how much experience they want, and if it pays decent money
to manage it or develop apps with it.

> 2) like offering papers and presentations at conferences to help
> further educate the community that still needs to know the technical
> aspects of the product since they still use it in house....
>

What good is the technology if there is no application to demonstrate
the big "WHY" to Informix. WHY WHY WHY should I develop applications
for Informix? Who cares about the engine if it doesn't have something
compelling that makes it worth my time to develop applications?

> 3) writing tech ar

ticles for trade rags to give visibility to the
> product, and it's strengths.
>
> 4) find employment with a company that has a great handle on alot of
> the Informix consulting opportunities out there.
>

Bwhahahahaahahahaaaaa! That's good! Made me laugh. I don't want to
work for Walmart.

> 5) Look up every nook and cranny (this one should be fun for OTC to
> respond to I'm sure!) for opportunities for spreading the product and
> it's presence - when onsite, traveling, and speaking to clients.
>

Uh huh. Why? What's in it for me?

> Am I disappointed by what HAS happened? Well of course. I was going to
> retire at Informix, and enjoy the income from the stock. What happened
> is TRAGIC. But statements and rantings like yours does NOTHING to
> further the cause.
>

What cause?

> Get involved with some of the stuff I detailed above. Run for the IIUG
> board. Write some papers. Take 1/3 of the time spent on here...and use
> it to make a contribution.
>

IIUG? Certainly you've got to be kidding. Write papers? Sure. In exchange for money. Anyway...I want a non-crippled version of the engine. Show me something I get in exchange for getting involved in a product that nobody but Walmart knows about. Tit for tat. Quid Pro Quo. There has to be an offer from the vendor that compels me or my young friends to use it, develop their apps with, etc etc etc.

> Mark Scranton
> Informix 1995-2006
>
>

[mark.s...@gmail.com]

You're amusing all of us I'm sure....I'll bite (since I'm grinning)....

see comments within....

Double Echo wrote:
> mark.s...@gmail.com wrote:
> > dude...
> >
> > It's like I suggested many, many months ago to you - if you have LOTS
> > of ideas for changing things, join IBM and try to make a change. Your
> > ramblings and "the longer it gets the filthier it is" approach only
> > alienates folks and makes people wonder about "these folks that say
> > they're dedicated to Informix."
> >
>
> Where's the download for the uncrippled version?

IF it can't power a flashlight, why would you want it at all?

>
> > If you wanna be "on this team", statements like "..it can't even power
> > a flashlight" are just, well, ridiculous.
> >
>
> Sad isn't it. It wouldn't take much to pump up the wattage on this puppy.
>
>
> > WHY do you keep beating the "IBM dead horse"? Do you really think that
> > is going to change? Are you kidding - of course not. I was there. We
> > tried to get IBM to offer a "free IDS" (for the developer community),
> > but this idea was beaten down over the potential loss of a few million
> > $$$ and politics - with no regard to the fact that DB2 has a free
> > offereing of course. So why do you repeat yourself (repeat yourself
> > (repeat yourself)) and have a cow over what IBM is not doing? Wasted
> > energy as I see it.
> >
>
> Well, it may be wasted to YOU, but what I find interesting is how "less
> from the vendor" is suddenly acceptable. I am curious why Oracles' model
> or Microsoft's' model produces huge sales for them, and how IBM, in most
> if not all situations produces a bunch of nothing in comparison. I am
> curious why my younger co-workers don't even know what Informix is.
>
> > But there IS a loyal group of "us" that are continuing to work on the
> > product - 100% of the time - and are doing creative things like:
> >
> > 1) joining the beta program for 10.5 to find out more about the new
> > features coming out
> >

OK - don't join the program that would give you the opportunity to
redirect your opinions to the source - IBM. Just keep rambling here.

>
> I don't want to join anything, I just want the download. I'll give
> up a certain amount of my personal info for IDS just like I did for DB2 or MySQL
> or Sybase or Oracle. I want to tinker with it, and see if it's worth
> spending my time on it, so I can find monetary gain from using and
> running the software. I'll scope the job sites to see if there's anybody
> using it and how much experience they want, and if it pays decent money
> to manage it or develop apps with it.
>

Again - why would you want to "tinker with it"? You already said it
wouldn't power a flashlight.

>
>
> > 2) like offering papers and presentations at conferences to help
> > further educate the community that still needs to know the technical
> > aspects of the product since they still use it in house....
> >
>
> What good is the technology if there is no application to demonstrate
> the big "WHY" to Informix. WHY WHY WHY should I develop applications
> for Informix? Who cares about the engine if it doesn't have something
> compelling that makes it worth my time to develop applications?
>
>
> > 3) writing tech ar
> ticles for trade rags to give visibility to the
> > product, and it's strengths.
> >
> > 4) find employment with a company that has a great handle on alot of
> > the Informix consulting opportunities out there.
> >
>
> Bwhahahahaahahahaaaaa! That's good! Made me laugh. I don't want to
> work for Walmart.

I've been consulting and teaching on Informix since 1995. I have taught
- count'em - ONE class at Walmart. And that was back in 1996/7. That's
it - 1. Never mind that large clients like, uh, Verizon, Home Depot,
Sears, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Choice Hotels, Pegasus, US Courts,
Associated Foods, Hewitt, Vital/TSYS (and their 28TB engine by year
end!), Hilton, Marriott, S1, and others. I've been to those sites
multiple times over the past 13 years....hmmm? There ARE some other
customers than Wal-Mart...what say you now?

>
>
> > 5) Look up every nook and cranny (this one should be fun for OTC to
> > respond to I'm sure!) for opportunities for spreading the product and
> > it's presence - when onsite, traveling, and speaking to clients.
> >
>
> Uh huh. Why? What's in it for me?

Uh....nothing. Cause you'll never be happy.

>
>
> > Am I disappointed by what HAS happened? Well of course. I was going to
> > retire at Informix, and enjoy the income from the stock. What happened
> > is TRAGIC. But statements and rantings like yours does NOTHING to
> > further the cause.
> >
>
>
> What cause?
>
>
> > Get involved with some of the stuff I detailed above. Run for the IIUG
> > board. Write some papers. Take 1/3 of the time spent on here...and use
> > it to make a contribution.
> >
>
> IIUG? Certainly you've got to be kidding. Write papers? Sure. In exchange for money. Anyway...I want a non-crippled version of the engine. Show me something I get in exchange for getting involved in a product that nobody but Walmart knows about. Tit for tat. Quid Pro Quo. There has to be an offer from the vendor that compels me or my young friends to use it, develop their apps with, etc etc etc.

And here is the real kicker....YOU could have been writing papers SINCE
the acquisition FOR MONEY! Yes - for MONEY. It's called
"Developerworks", and many, many clients have contributed AND been paid
for their efforts. But no - you decide to write here..FOR NO MONEY.
What say you to this?
>
>

I've been involved with almost every facet of Informix since 1995, and
have always been connected to customers. And that crowd includes many
that post here on CDI too. Take a survey...many of us have authored or
co-authored books (me, Ron, Lester, ...) Many of us have received
recognition from the IIUG and IBM for our efforts (me, Art, Jonathon,
John M...). Many of us have written for DeveloperWorks (me, Jacques,
Madison...), and actually been paid for our efforts. Many of us have
written articles. And last I checked, none of my publishing, scripting,
whatever had anything to do with Wal-Mart. Like I said - there is a
"team" of us that do this - because we have passion and want to make a
contribution that is positive and can stand a chance to further the
technology.

Wanna join us? If not - I wish you the best, and hate to see another
Informix cronie head down the "other product road". Sad but true, we
all know it is happening. But those of us who have chosen to stay will
continue to stay the course...just like it's always been....from way
back....from 1995 for me and earlier for some.

My family has grown from 4 teenagers when I started to now 4 grown-kids
and 4 grandkids. And I am still making a living with the product I have
given 13 years to...

Mark Scranton
Informix 1995-2006

>
> > Mark Scranton
> > Informix 1995-2006
> >
> >

[Mark Townsend]

mark.s...@gmail.com wrote:

> 5) Look up every nook and cranny

Actually - crooks and nannies would be how I would describe the last 10
years of Informix management

[Obnoxio The Clown]

I'm not sure how Steve Mills would take that.

[Martin Fuerderer]

E.g.
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/gbowerman?entry=ids_marketing

But of course it will not matter to DE, because it is only a
blog of an IBMer, etc. ;)

And DE has made his (pre-mature) judgement and he will not be
convinced otherwise by any current or future facts. ;-)

Besides, such change of opinion would require to admit that one
was wrong before, which can be a difficult thing to do. On a personal
level it is probably more difficult than to migrate a database or
application from one platform to another on the technical level.

Often it is better to keep an open mind - to not close the door
for reasonable decision making based on the right facts of the
current time. Foregone conclusions will always limit your choices
later. Once in the corner where one has put oneself it can be very
difficult to get out again. :)

Cheers,
Martin
--

[Double Echo]

Martin Fuerderer wrote:
> E.g.
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/gbowerman?entry=ids_marketing
>
> But of course it will not matter to DE, because it is only a
> blog of an IBMer, etc. ;)
>

Well, partially true. The blog has a lot of gossip, not much fact.
"Secret secret!, I can't say anything, shhhhhhh!". Show me some
facts.

> And DE has made his (pre-mature) judgement and he will not be
> convinced otherwise by any current or future facts. ;-)
>

Facts always sway me, gossip does not. Let's see Informix by the
numbers. I'm from Missouri, the Show-Me state. So Show Me.

> Besides, such change of opinion would require to admit that one
> was wrong before, which can be a difficult thing to do. On a personal
> level it is probably more difficult than to migrate a database or
> application from one platform to another on the technical level.
>

You made two assertions. One, you're wrong about admitting I'm wrong.
PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG. IBM I AM BEGGING YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG.

Two, I have migrated databases several times for a lot of companies
and worked with most major databases, except Oracle, but even with
Oracle I've had to admin systems where it was running, and I was the
sys admin not the dba. I use SQLServer on a frequent basis, MySQL
on a daily basis, and yes DB2. Set up DB2 HA on Windows. Set up DB2
cluster on Linux. Used and was DBA for XPS, IDS. Wrote tons of C,4GL.
Now I write only Perl and PHP. Lots of Linux kernel management too.

> Often it is better to keep an open mind - to not close the door
> for reasonable decision making based on the right facts of the
> current time. Foregone conclusions will always limit your choices
> later. Once in the corner where one has put oneself it can be very
> difficult to get out again. :)
>

True dat. My family paid a heavy price for my staying too long with
Informix before it died. But what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
The market will help you to have an open mind.

I've gone on to learn a lot about just about every major database
out there, and know the differences in features. So I think if there
was or is anyone who keeps an open mind here in c.d.i., it is me. I
had a lot of skin in the Informix game in the past, not going to make
that mistake again until it shows itself as a winner, not a wimpy
loser.

You want an open mind, try thinking about what Informix looks like to
the rest of the market. Try to imagine your circle of co-workers
not having a clue what Informix is. Try to imagine management not
knowing what Informix is. Then you will begin to understand my
world.

Get that non-crippled download out there so I can evaluate the product,
and I'll join the party. I'm not going to play with something diddled
with by the goddam IIUG or a "lite" version. And by the way, I didn't
join the Oracle users' group or the MySQL users group and both of these
products seem to be doing fine without my participation or volunteer
effort.

Cheers <raising pint beer glass>

DE

> Cheers,
> Martin
> --
>

[Jean Georges Perrin]

It's far too obvious you don't live in Missouri... :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Double Echo
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 14:58
> To: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand
> 2006,TheNextInformix IDS Release...
>

[Double Echo]

Jean Georges Perrin wrote:
> It's far too obvious you don't live in Missouri... :-)

I didn't say I lived in Missouri, I said I was _from_ Missouri.

And why is it "far too obvious I don't live in Missouri" ? Sorry, I don't get your meaning.

[Christine Normile]

JGP likes to trace mail headers in his spare time!

Sorry, JGP!

[Obnoxio The Clown]

Christine Normile said:
> JGP likes to trace mail headers in his spare time!

Life Donors Anonymous wants you NOW, JGP. :o)

[Jerry Hamilton]

I live in Missouri and like it....

> _______________________________________________
> Informix-list mailing list
> Inform...@iiug.org
> http://www.iiug.org/mailman/listinfo/informix-list
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Jean Georges Perrin]

No big deal, I hate people hiding for no reason. If you have something to
say, there is always a good way to say it.

And I did not trace IP for DE, I do it for people I care about.

jgp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: informix-l...@iiug.org [mailto:informix-list-
> bou...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Christine Normile
> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 21:44
> To: doubl...@your.com
> Cc: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: Insider #75: Highlights: IBM Information On Demand
> 2006,TheNextInformix IDS Release...
>

> JGP likes to trace mail headers in his spare time!
>

> Sorry, JGP!