These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
malcolm weallans
Colin,
I've just checked this by accessing the newsgroup and it is still
unclear to me what email serge was referring to. But then much of what
Serge says is unclear :-o
As to this issue in general -
Yesterday I raised the question of "should serge and OTC take this topic
offline?" I was concerned at the bandwidth that was being used up
between these two individuals. And whilst I don't have bandwidth
problems at the moment I do know many people who are still have very
restricted access to these facilities.
I seem to have had the negative effect. Suddenly we have had a plethora
of opinions on what IBM are doing, what the IIUG board is doing.
This is our newsgroup. It does not belong to IBM, it does not belong to
IIUG board. It belongs to the members of the newsgroup. It should be
self-policing. And if any of us think that a discussion would be better
handled offline we should say so. And the originators should take note.
And guys, please remember that the population of this newsgroup is
mainly honest, hardworking developers and DBAs who don't really give a
toss whether the database of the future is DB2 based, or Informix based,
provided they have tools they can use to develop applications and
database facilities.
Regards
Malcolm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-inf...@iiug.org [mailto:owner-inf...@iiug.org]
On Behalf Of Colin Bull
Sent: 05 February 2004 09:10
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: RE: IDS to DB2 conversion
Serge Rielau wrote
>
> Good post :-)
>
OTC >> bollocks
Serge I have a severe problem with your posts. You cut all the previous
comment out and I do not know what you are referring to.
Because I read the group from the mail list, not only are they delayed
by about 4 hours, they are also shuffled. It is a bit like the TV quiz
where the contestant has been given the answers, but is answering the
next question before it is asked :-(
Colin Bull
c.b...@videonetworks.com
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Tim Schaefer
meets your guidelines? Thanks so much Malcolm you twit.
Here we are geezuz 10 years down the road and there's still knuckle
draggers who pull out the "bandwidth" nonsense predating the world
wide web in this and other newsgroups. For me that's a ticket to
even more chatter and endless posts with lots of lively discussion
about more nothing! Keep it coming I say, at this point it's a lot
more entertaining than hearing about a backup or replication problem,
which usually ends up being a user problem and not the software.
So far I've learned from the clown that it's cool to speak up now, and
it's ok for people to be upset with the IIUG and IBM. It's in style now,
having been blessed by endless banter, quick witlessness, defensive
politicians, and the corporate spineless chiming in. You may remember
a while back IIUG people having a problem with individuals who couldn't
suck up to Informix or IBM or Malcolm for that matter you old dog. I
eagerly await any opportunity to pull the IIUG chain, and for you
witless Brits, an opportunity to piss on the queen and your smokey,
cockney drivvel. I cannot hardly wait. Thanks Malcolm, let's get this
rockin...please go crawl back under your rock.
Tim
"malcolm weallans" <malcol...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:bvt6h7$nmk$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com...
Obnoxio The Clown
> Yesterday I raised the question of "should serge and OTC take this topic
> offline?" I was concerned at the bandwidth that was being used up
> between these two individuals. And whilst I don't have bandwidth
> problems at the moment I do know many people who are still have very
> restricted access to these facilities.
I bet it hasn't taken up as much bandwidth as one HTML/MIME post. Yet you
don't have any problem moaning at me for complaining about that.
> I seem to have had the negative effect. Suddenly we have had a plethora
> of opinions on what IBM are doing, what the IIUG board is doing.
And this, of course, is entirely irrelevant to Informix users. I mean, hell,
why would an Informix user care about what the vendor of their software and
the user group that represents them, do?
> This is our newsgroup. It does not belong to IBM, it does not belong to
> IIUG board. It belongs to the members of the newsgroup. It should be
> self-policing. And if any of us think that a discussion would be better
> handled offline we should say so. And the originators should take note.
> And guys, please remember that the population of this newsgroup is
> mainly honest, hardworking developers and DBAs who don't really give a
> toss whether the database of the future is DB2 based, or Informix based,
> provided they have tools they can use to develop applications and
> database facilities.
I'm sorry Malcolm, who appointed you moderator? I must have missed that bit.
You are, of course, fully entitled to your opinion that I should shut up
about this, and you are entitled to express it, but I am also just as
entitled to the expression my opinion that the debate over the future of
Informix technology and the failure of IBM to treat IDS in a way that I
consider proper. But I am definitely not going to shut up about something
that I believe is crucial to the future of my career and the career of
thousands out there, just because _you_ want me to.
As one of the dishonest and slovenly people here who *does* give a toss
about where my twenty-year investment in technical skills is going, I think
this is of interest to most Informixers. If you want to talk about
databases in general, go sit on comp.databases. This newsgroup is for
discussion about Informix-related issues, and the issue of Informix's
future technology and strategy is very important to me and, I would hope,
the many dishonest and slovenly other DBAs out there (Paul and Neil come to
mind for some reason. :o)
If I was sitting here slagging off the XBox compared to the PS2, you would
be quite right in having this go at me, but this forum is for anything
Informix-related -- and my "beef" is definitely Informix-related.
If you want to make a purely technical forum that you have the final control
over, create your own in the alt.* hierarchy, build a bulletin board using
PHP (I'm sure Tim will help you) or start your own mailing list. If you
don't want to see any of my posts, just PLONK me or put me in your email
killfile. I really won't be offended.
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
Tim Schaefer
them out there in PHP, but thanks for the plug. You have to be under
25 to write that stuff anyway, plus no way I'd help Malcolm on that one,
he doesn't have any equipment modern enough to render a web browser.
Last I heard he was still using smoke signals on days when he can't
bang his drums.
:-)
Hey Malcolm, have a hearty, piping hot cup of STFU!
Tim
"Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bvtcto$10juqr$1...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
> If you want to make a purely technical forum that you have the final control
> over, create your own in the alt.* hierarchy, build a bulletin board using
> PHP (I'm sure Tim will help you) or start your own mailing list. If you
> don't want to see any of my posts, just PLONK me or put me in your email
> killfile. I really won't be offended.
>
> --
> "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ą dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
> - Coluche
Neil Truby
news:4jqUb.183129$vb2.1...@fe22.usenetserver.com...
> I
> eagerly await any opportunity to pull the IIUG chain, and for you
> witless Brits, an opportunity to piss on the queen and your smokey,
> cockney drivvel. I cannot hardly wait.
Leave it out! Bleeding 'ell. You're 'avin' a larf ....
Obnoxio The Clown
> So it's ok to keep it here in comp.databases.informix as long as it
> meets your guidelines? Thanks so much Malcolm you twit.
OK, so maybe Tim won't help you with the PHP bulletin board. :o)
> I
> eagerly await any opportunity to pull the IIUG chain, and for you
> witless Brits, an opportunity to piss on the queen and your smokey,
> cockney drivvel. I cannot hardly wait. Thanks Malcolm, let's get this
> rockin...please go crawl back under your rock.
"Drivel".
"I cannot wait" or "I can hardly wait".
I think it's being a bit unfair to the rest of us outside of 'stend to say
that we're all Cockney.
And witless? Pretty rich coming from an Amurrican, in Florida, the place
what gave the free world "Doobier" as a leader. :op
I'm going to be in extra trouble now for publicly picking nits and splitting
hairs. I hope. :o)
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
Captain Pedantic
news:bvt6h7$nmk$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com...
> This is our newsgroup. It does not belong to IBM, it does not belong to
> IIUG board. It belongs to the members of the newsgroup. It should be
> self-policing. And if any of us think that a discussion would be better
> handled offline we should say so. And the originators should take note.
You did say so. We did take note. And we ignored you ...!
Tim Schaefer
:-)
So didn't use my spelchkr so shoot me!
BTW I didn't vote for that twit either. I'm holdin out
for Hillary then moving to France...
"Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bvtda6$vg5d1$1...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
Obnoxio The Clown
> Last I heard he was still using smoke signals on days when he can't
> bang his drums.
Like this, you mean...? http://eagle.auc.ca/~dreid/
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
Malc P
My input to this is, I'm an Informix DBA and I'd rather not have to
learn how to DBA another vendor's offering. This statement may or may
not be rational but hey, that's me, and I'm old.
What I guess we all want to know is whether the impending merge of
technology (as I recall, the working name quoted at the Infobahn was
'DBNew' but what's in a name?) will:
A) retain the capabilities and performance of IDS
B) be an upgrade which will be no more difficult than a version
upgrade, i.e. take old server down; install new server; start new
server and allow conversion to occur; go online. 1.5 hours, max.
C) Retain the administration capabilities of IDS
D) run our 4GL/SQL/ESQLC etc without mods.
If any of these aren't met, will the transition at best be no more
than a weekend's work to iron out?
Further to that; are there any *really* good reasons we shouldn't look
at Oracle, Sybase, SQLServer etc. if the transition to DBNew is more
difficult than we'd like.
And we don't need answers that begin "We all know that...." or "It's
plainly obvious...." and so on.
Does IBM have a hidden agenda to shaft Informix users? No speculation,
please. Those of us who are NOT close to the front line, those of us
who just DBA or write code every day, don't know the wheres, hows or
whys of the cynicism, but it certainly makes the confidence in our
chosen technology plummet.
You guys haven't got a CLUE the effect all the bad-mouthing of IBM
that goes on here is having on IT management teams - there are
corporate decision-makers reading this group. Mine are saying "We've
got to drop Informix like NOW before they force us up sh*t creek and
take away our paddle". In as many words. I fear for my job. I'm
beginning to feel I'd be better off busking.
So, how do we rebuild that confidence? All I hear here is bad-mouthing
and little that's constructive.
2.5 pence from Malc_P
Obnoxio The Clown
> Malcolm W more or less hit the nail on the head.
If he did, then why are you asking questions about IBM's IDS strategy? :o)
> My input to this is, I'm an Informix DBA and I'd rather not have to
> learn how to DBA another vendor's offering. This statement may or may
> not be rational but hey, that's me, and I'm old.
> What I guess we all want to know is whether the impending merge of
> technology (as I recall, the working name quoted at the Infobahn was
> 'DBNew' but what's in a name?) will:
>
> A) retain the capabilities and performance of IDS
> B) be an upgrade which will be no more difficult than a version
> upgrade, i.e. take old server down; install new server; start new
> server and allow conversion to occur; go online. 1.5 hours, max.
> C) Retain the administration capabilities of IDS
> D) run our 4GL/SQL/ESQLC etc without mods.
>
> If any of these aren't met, will the transition at best be no more
> than a weekend's work to iron out?
Not if the administration doesn't get resolved. Conversion will almost
certainly depend on data set size. I strongly doubt that DB2 will be able
to match the more esoteric aspects of IDS without considerable work, it may
be better to wrap a DB2 wrapper around IDS than try to implement all the
Illustra APIs.
There is talk that 4GL will be given DRDA (IBM data access) at some
unspecified point in the future, as there is talk that 4GL will somehow be
integrated into IBM's EGL strategy. I'm not aware of any specifics on
either of these.
Allegations have been made that some of the onstats may be put into a
forthcoming version of DB2, but I'm not sure there will ever be a full
merge of the administration between the two. (That's just an opinion, mind,
I have no concrete reason for saying that.)
> Further to that; are there any *really* good reasons we shouldn't look
> at Oracle, Sybase, SQLServer etc. if the transition to DBNew is more
> difficult than we'd like.
We all know that it's plainly obvious that there isn't a really good reason
not to look at these if DBNew doesn't cut the mustard. Price, quality, tech
support, all the usual.
> And we don't need answers that begin "We all know that...." or "It's
> plainly obvious...." and so on.
Oh, sorry.
> Does IBM have a hidden agenda to shaft Informix users? No speculation,
> please. Those of us who are NOT close to the front line, those of us
> who just DBA or write code every day, don't know the wheres, hows or
> whys of the cynicism, but it certainly makes the confidence in our
> chosen technology plummet.
IBM doesn't have any agenda at all, from my dealings with them. The whole
reason I and several other dishonest and slovenly people are moaning is
because the chosen technology is so much better than anything else and I,
for one, do not feel that IBM is doing IDS justice, for want of a better
term. But to be fair to IBM, this just seems to be the way they work. I've
heard that someone has woken up to the fact that NUMA-Q was actually quite
spiffy technology, and now they are scrambling around trying to find the
Sequent people that they dispersed or lost after the acquisition. Or maybe
they just need them for the fight with SCO. :o)
> You guys haven't got a CLUE the effect all the bad-mouthing of IBM
> that goes on here is having on IT management teams - there are
> corporate decision-makers reading this group. Mine are saying "We've
> got to drop Informix like NOW before they force us up sh*t creek and
> take away our paddle". In as many words. I fear for my job. I'm
> beginning to feel I'd be better off busking.
Here are some reasons to stick with IDS: IBM will not force anyone to
migrate and has, to be fair, done *exactly* what they said they were going
to do. IDS is being developed, maintained and supported, and as far as I
can tell, will continue to be. The roadmap has been updated faithfully.
Features are being logged for 9.50. IDS tech support is still the best in
the business.
My main moan is that they gave / give too much credence to analysts who say
that if they do anything to promote IDS they will be downgraded because of
a confused database strategy. And we all know that the analysts are always
right.
If there is any agenda, it is a bit of wishful thinking that IDS users will
migrate to DB2 en masse because it's just so much better. There are some
nudges that keep IDS out of the mainstream, like undercutting the price
with DB2 and trying to force everyone onto the wonderful (and cheap!)
Pisspoor Disadvantage support scheme. As far as I can tell, IBM likes to
have one-size-fits-all processes, and I assume that the reason IDS has to
merge into IBM's way of doing things is because of this. I think this is a
major recipe for inflexible and intransigent business dealings with them,
myself, but I could be wrong. I mean, my dealings with them have been plain
sailing... :o#
I've not seen any evidence of anything like an active agenda to shaft
anybody. Mind you, what do I know. :o)
> So, how do we rebuild that confidence? All I hear here is bad-mouthing
> and little that's constructive.
I am not sure what anyone has said (in this thread anyway) that would cause
your management concern. There are still a large number of vocal users who
care passionately about Informix and still want it to take over the world.
They do not want IBM to force them up a creek and take away the paddle,
either. Your management should be rejoicing that this is the case. IBM have
not broken any promises (that I can think of off-hand, anyway), all that
the moaners are unhappy with is that they did not promise enough. It is
their right not to promise enough and it is our right not to accept that
lying down. :o)
Mark D. Stock
malcolm weallans wrote:
> And guys, please remember that the population of this newsgroup is
> mainly honest, hardworking developers and DBAs who don't really give a
> toss whether the database of the future is DB2 based, or Informix based,
> provided they have tools they can use to develop applications and
> database facilities.
What newsgroup are you talking about? We ARE still on the Informix
newsgroup aren't we? Did I slip into a parallel newsgroup where everyone is
skilled in all databases? Did IBM sneakily switch this newsgroup over to
DB2 when I wasn't looking?
Of course we care what the database is, otherwise we wouldn't be here.
Cheers,
--
Mark.
+----------------------------------------------------------+-----------+
| Mark D. Stock mailto:mds...@MydasSolutions.com |//////// /|
| Mydas Solutions Ltd http://MydasSolutions.com |///// / //|
| +-----------------------------------+//// / ///|
| |We value your comments, which have |/// / ////|
| |been recorded and automatically |// / /////|
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sending to informix-list
Tim Schaefer
You make some good points.
I was particularly interested in your characterization of how
IBM does business, with P****port Advantage, etc. Have you
ever done business with Microsoft? It isn't much better, not
to mention other big software houses that sell software and
yearly maintenance outside of database software, like ETL
vendors.
So here we are, IBM says attrition of Informix licenses vs DB2
licenses, what's it gonna cost us? I think they said that from
the beginning. Just stop the hemmoraging until we can improve
DB2 for the non-VM market. Everybody gets that.
The other thing that concerns me is your characterization of
what constitutes "better technology". As far as SQL-Server and
Sybase, they are go-limp-push-the-button databases that do not
break very often, if at all, and perform surprisingly in quite
a predictable manner. Sybase interestingly enough seems to be
coming back from the dead, their CEO steered their ship smoothly
through the dot-bomb perfect storm, and now they live another
day. I'm not a big fan of either of these database engines, but
does it really matter? I get paid equal to my past Informix life,
it's just now I work with a Chevy instead of a Rolls Royce.
We have yet to log a call to Microsoft about anything with SQL-Server,
about a "bug" in the engine. Is this sheer laziness, ignorance,
or what? Nope, it's just a well-designed database engine that works
well in its space, and has a plethora of features. It just runs and
runs and runs. You really don't need a DBA for it, unless you're
working with big volumes of data. It won't cluster worht a sh** but
that's what other engines are for. It's important to see what each
of these engines do, and have for features in order to really say
that they are "superior" or "inferior".
Admit it or not, MS sells commodity databases, and SQL-Server gets
put in places Informix people could only dream about. Honestly,
SQL-Server is the right choice because honestly you wouldn't want
Informix where a lot of SQL-Server is living. Informix breaks more
often, and that's it. Then what? Call IBM? Nope. Install SQL-Server.
You don't want to risk your own hide on Informix when you can lower
the risk with SQL-Server, it has market acceptance even when it
runs like a snail.
So is IBM wrong for going after the market the way they are going?
The new economy will focus on databases that are simple, robust,
and go-limp-push-the-button. If that means less control for the
DBA, well, that's the way it goes. Microsoft for all its crappy
products sells a lot of product, and for IBM to increase its risk
with a database, that for our understanding is "superior" to DB2,
makes absolutely no sense to sell in a market that doesn't want
that kind of database, nor would it know what to do with it anyway.
Most shops today would rather take a performance hit for comfort
any day over superior, breakable, Informix. Honestly ain't no way
I could abuse an Informix database the way we abuse SQL-Server, just
aint no way, unless the latest release has improved, but who cares?
People will go with the majority market, not the unknown deathware.
Incidentally, think about this, if SQL-Server were ever ported to
Linux, most of the database vendors out there would sh*t their pants.
SQL-Server on Linux... now THAT would REALLY be interesting. ( Watching
the rest of the market sh** their pants on that one would be interesting
too! :-)
Tim
"Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:bvtss5$vdo5o$1...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
Colin Bull
Tim Schaefer wrote
> Ya bringin me ta tears with lafter.
Lafter is how they say it up north, Manchester and Liverpool way,
down here for us cockneys it is 'larfter'
Colin - A cockney and half wit and proud of it - Bull
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sending to informix-list
Dirk Moolman
Man, I hope IBM is following this thread ...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-inf...@iiug.org [mailto:owner-inf...@iiug.org] On Behalf Of Obnoxio The Clown
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
Malc P wrote:
>
>
Illustra APIs.
either of these.
support, all the usual.
Oh, sorry.
> chosen technology plummet.
the business.
right.
sailing... :o#
lying down. :o)
--
- Coluche
________________________________
<< ella for Spam Control >> has removed 1175 Spam messages and set aside 210 Newsletters for me
You can use it too - and it's FREE! www.ellaforspam.com
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Serge Rielau
> Man, I hope IBM is following this thread ...
"IBM needs to get more references of DB2 migrations out to disprove the
perception that the base is mostly leaving to the competition."
Given that the situation is rather ticklish it would be unreasonable to
excpect IBM to aggressively push those references, but they ought to be
available on the web.
I'm sure folks here can follow if I say that anything aggresive would be
seen as the final nail in the coffin of Informix by many customers.
Honestly, was there anything more in this thread once all the ranting is
cut out? I would love to have a serious discussion, offline would be
just as fine. I don't mind email.
I don't think anyone can expect IBM to publish the names of every
Informix developer working on DB2 and transfering technology to prove
it's indeed happening.
Equally there is a fine line to be walked on when to tell which features
are available if for nothing else than legal purposes.
(Not even mentioning that I know that Mark T. watches my every keystroke)
Cheers
Serge
--
Serge Rielau
DB2 SQL Compiler Development
IBM Toronto Lab
malcolm weallans
Serge,
I think you managed to sum it up pretty well. As you say, there wasn't
really much more except ranting about how Informix is better than DB2 -
which this group knows anyway. I also don't think that this group helps
IBM by keep telling each other that users are migrating away. An IT
manager who knows little about the technicalities would read this thread
and conclude that as everybody else is leaving Informix for Orrible and
Squeal they might as well follow suit. As a group we need to be careful
what we say about migration. I know of at least two sites who have
decided to leave Informix based on what they have read here - and they
didn't even look at DB2.
But there is a serious concern among the Informix professionals in this
group that they will have difficulty finding work when the Informix
product is replaced by DB2++. This concern needs to be presented to IBM
management. It's one thing incorporating Informix into the DB2 product,
it's another challenge to get Informix customers to migrate in that
direction, but it is an even bigger problem to convert those many of us
who have pledged our careers to Informix over the last 15 or more years.
Regards
Malcolm
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-inf...@iiug.org [mailto:owner-inf...@iiug.org]
On Behalf Of Serge Rielau
Sent: 06 February 2004 14:18
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
sending to informix-list
Scott MacKenzie
I know that pricing and licensing affect the "leaving" issue. I can
see (even though our VAR has not yet announced it) that we will be
moving to MicroSlop Squeel. And so will the 180 plus other Colleges
served by our VAR. No there has been no formal announcement, but the
writing is very very plainly on the wall. The time frame is probably
within 5 years. And they will evidentally be migrating one branch of
services from O***** to Squeel as well.
Yes, I share the fondness of many of the other members of this group
for Informix. But the only constant consistent rule seems to be change.
Evolution and growth (and newer versions!) are always part and parcel
of the DBA's job. Too bad IBM's corporate strategizers seem to have
missed that essential fact. Too close to the sand to see the castle?
Serge Rielau wrote:
> Dirk Moolman wrote:
>
>>Man, I hope IBM is following this thread ...
>
> Here is what I have passed on so far out of this thread:
> "IBM needs to get more references of DB2 migrations out to disprove the
> perception that the base is mostly leaving to the competition."
>
> Given that the situation is rather ticklish it would be unreasonable to
> excpect IBM to aggressively push those references, but they ought to be
> available on the web.
> I'm sure folks here can follow if I say that anything aggresive would be
> seen as the final nail in the coffin of Informix by many customers.
>
> Honestly, was there anything more in this thread once all the ranting is
> cut out? I would love to have a serious discussion, offline would be
> just as fine. I don't mind email.
>
> I don't think anyone can expect IBM to publish the names of every
> Informix developer working on DB2 and transfering technology to prove
> it's indeed happening.
> Equally there is a fine line to be walked on when to tell which features
> are available if for nothing else than legal purposes.
> (Not even mentioning that I know that Mark T. watches my every keystroke)
>
> Cheers
> Serge
--
( ______
)) .-- Scott MacKenzie; Dine' College ISD --. >===<--.
C|~~| (>--- Phone/Voice Mail: 928-724-6639 ---<) | ; o |-'
| | \--- Senior DBA/CARS Coordinator/Etc. --/ | _ |
`--' `-- E: scottm at dinecollege dot edu -' `-----'
sending to informix-list
Neil Truby
>
> Serge,
> I think you managed to sum it up pretty well. As you say, there wasn't
> really much more except ranting about how Informix is better than DB2 -
> which this group knows anyway.
Gosh, I didn't see it that way. I thought there was a lot of constructive
criticism ("promote the product please"), and some explanations as to why
that wasn't happening. Also some tangiable suggestions as to the sort of
technical features we want to see in DB2 and its migration tools. So I
don't agree with you (or Serge) that the debate lacks merit.
> I also don't think that this group helps
> IBM by keep telling each other that users are migrating away. ... I know
of at least two sites who have
> decided to leave Informix based on what they have read here - and they
> didn't even look at DB2.
And there you go, Malcolm, doing *exactly* what you're pulling others up on!
I too know of lots of sites where Informix is being replaced, and not by
DB2. Usually this is either because of third-party pressure, or because of
a perception that Informix is dying. Maybe the cdi debate contributes to
this peerception, but other factors - the lack of product advertising for
example - are much bigger ones.
Just because the voicing of an opinion that IBM's policy towards Informix is
contributing to the product's demise may itself contribute towards a
negative impression, does that mean everyone should keep quiet and not point
out that policy's flaw? Have you read "The Emperor's New Clothes"?
> But there is a serious concern among the Informix professionals in this
> group that they will have difficulty finding work when the Informix
> product is replaced by DB2++. This concern needs to be presented to IBM
> management.
Again, I don't agree with you. I have huge sympathy with those, like me
probably, whose employment prospects are dented by Informix's decline: but
I'm not even sure if IBM has a moral responsibility to these people and even
if it does I think it is naive to expect that to figure highly in the
thinking of *any* big business.
Serge Rielau
OK, so promoting the product is an issue. It certainly is a known one.
So reporting up that it is an issue will not do much good.
How would you promote Informix _if_you_were_in_IBM's_shoes_ ?
Let's stay reasonable, though. DB2 is and will be the flagship brand.
When negotiating you have to acknowledge unnegotiable points.
As a company IBM's interest in the Informix install base is to generate
revenue.
This can be either done by keeping the base where it is, or by
converting the base to DB2. To convert the base there must be a value
proposition for customers. To keep it customers must be happy enough
with it that they don't see a value proposition in the competition and
they don't feel they have to jump due to an end-of-service event by
either the DBMS or their ISVs.
Informix itself realized that independent products cost R&D efficiency.
It makes no sense to do the same work in Redbrick, XPS, IDS 7, IDS 9 and
DB2.
DB2 has somewhat of an excuse for three codebases due to plaform
integration. For Unix at all you can't sell that to analysts as little
as to shareholders.
Informix went to work on Arrowhead....
What should IBM do?
Cheers
Serge
PS: I am applying logic, not IBM policy. I cannot speak for IBM.
Neil Truby
news:c00t97$16a$1...@hanover.torolab.ibm.com...
> Neil Truby wrote:
> OK, so promoting the product is an issue. It certainly is a known one.
> So reporting up that it is an issue will not do much good.
> How would you promote Informix _if_you_were_in_IBM's_shoes_ ?
I'd promote it as an IBM UNIX/Linux/NT database of choice, alongside DB2 if
they wish. Arguably technically superior to DB2 UDB. And unencumbered by
the general perception of DB2 as a mainframe product.
> Let's stay reasonable, though. DB2 is and will be the flagship brand.
> When negotiating you have to acknowledge unnegotiable points.
Well, to be accurate, DB2 is the brand, and DB2 is the flagship product.
But, you're right, and I accept that it's non-negotiable. IBM execs have an
unshakeable belief in DB2, the product. Even I can see that isn't going to
change. That's why I said in an earlier post that the IIUG's aims should be
to advocate to IBM make DB2 the best possible conversion for Informix users.
But I *know* from my own experience that IBM has very badly miscalculated in
its attitude to Informix. Is it wrong to point this out?
> What should IBM do?
In my humble opinion? Promote Informix as a product in its own right.
Ignore the analysts. Try to sell it to new customers. Destroy the
impression that its actions are giving that Informix is dead.
And not just because I want Informix to be preserved (although I do). But
because they are haemoragging customers to the competition. Informix users
are showing by deed and in their droves that they do not want to migrate to
DB2.
Serge Rielau
> "Serge Rielau" <sri...@ca.eye-be-em.com> wrote in message
> news:c00t97$16a$1...@hanover.torolab.ibm.com...
>
>>Neil Truby wrote:
>
>
>>OK, so promoting the product is an issue. It certainly is a known one.
>>So reporting up that it is an issue will not do much good.
>>How would you promote Informix _if_you_were_in_IBM's_shoes_ ?
>
>
> I'd promote it as an IBM UNIX/Linux/NT database of choice, alongside DB2 if
> they wish. Arguably technically superior to DB2 UDB. And unencumbered by
> the general perception of DB2 as a mainframe product.
Or would you focus on IDS 9 only?
Where would you draw the line? In which cases should IBM push IDS and in
which case DB2?
Using Redbrick as an example: Redbrick is great w.r.t. embeddability,
but it's not so well rounded.
So it's rather easy to draw a line there.
Sbould IBM invest in benchmarks such as TPC-C and app vendors?
Note though that these high-end benchmarks can cost a ton of money and
resources.
>>Let's stay reasonable, though. DB2 is and will be the flagship brand.
>>When negotiating you have to acknowledge unnegotiable points.
>
>
> Well, to be accurate, DB2 is the brand, and DB2 is the flagship product.
> But, you're right, and I accept that it's non-negotiable. IBM execs have an
> unshakeable belief in DB2, the product. Even I can see that isn't going to
> change.
Correct, there is no reason for execs to think otherwise.
DB2 rules z/Series, is on par with IDS on Unix and is expected to become
#2 on Windows very soon. For being the new kid on the block on Unix and
Windows that is a decent track record.
>That's why I said in an earlier post that the IIUG's aims should be
> to advocate to IBM make DB2 the best possible conversion for Informix users.
> But I *know* from my own experience that IBM has very badly miscalculated in
> its attitude to Informix. Is it wrong to point this out?
I'd prefer constructive criticism. I can tell you first hand that a good
chunk of the resources is aimed at making DB2 the best product to
migrate to. Does IBM need to publicize this more?
I have talked at WAIUG about impassionate comparison of DB2 with IDS.
Would it be an helpful to send out well known Informix and DB2
developers to local meetings to talk about what they do for DB2 Vnext?
I.e. Putting faces to the effort; make it tangible.
I think it would be OK to talk about HDR, range partitioning and some of
the other efforts which were publicized as being targets or which are
ripe enough to be put in the open. (Not to mention that I like traveling)
>>What should IBM do?
> In my humble opinion? Promote Informix as a product in its own right.
> Ignore the analysts. Try to sell it to new customers. Destroy the
> impression that its actions are giving that Informix is dead.
> And not just because I want Informix to be preserved (although I do). But
> because they are haemoragging customers to the competition. Informix users
> are showing by deed and in their droves that they do not want to migrate to
> DB2.
It is very hard to ignore analysts. As Informix customers know first
hand it is not technology alone that sells. A marketing dollar spent in
an anlyst meeting is a lot more effective than one spend in more direct
means.
It is a fact that Informix was haemoragging before the acquisition. The
question is: "Has this accelerated or been reduced?"
It's a question I ask every Informix saleperson when I meet them. The
answer from them is: Much reduced.
Many of the big customers are reportedly relieved to have IBM behind the
name now.
The question is: How to reconcile these news with what is voiced here?
Are those posting here representing smaller customers which are not
"touched" by a salesperson and hence fall through the cracks. Or is the
group that speaks up here not representative - just rather noisy?
More food for thought.
Serge
Neil Truby
> Neil Truby wrote:
> > "Serge Rielau" <sri...@ca.eye-be-em.com> wrote in message
> > news:c00t97$16a$1...@hanover.torolab.ibm.com...
> >
I was going to post a point-by-point reply until I realised that it would be
futile.
The difference between us is not about technology.
You believe that IBM is well-placed to claim a significant proportion of
Informix customers as and when they migrate.
You infer that this justifies IBM's policy towards Informix.
My observation is that I see many defectors, and none of them are going to
DB2.
I infer from this that IBM has seriously miscalculated.
But we live in different parts of the world, do different jobs and, maybe
you are correct, see different-sized companies.
My experiences may be atypical. But I can only call it as I see it ....
Have a good weekend.
Serge Rielau
> "Serge Rielau" <sri...@ca.eye-be-em.com> wrote in message
> news:c013kp$2gf$1...@hanover.torolab.ibm.com...
>
>>Neil Truby wrote:
>>
>>>"Serge Rielau" <sri...@ca.eye-be-em.com> wrote in message
>>>news:c00t97$16a$1...@hanover.torolab.ibm.com...
>>>
>
>
> I was going to post a point-by-point reply until I realised that it would be
> futile.
> The difference between us is not about technology.
>
> You believe that IBM is well-placed to claim a significant proportion of
> Informix customers as and when they migrate.
> You infer that this justifies IBM's policy towards Informix.
>
> My observation is that I see many defectors, and none of them are going to
> DB2.
> I infer from this that IBM has seriously miscalculated.
>
> But we live in different parts of the world, do different jobs and, maybe
> you are correct, see different-sized companies.
> My experiences may be atypical. But I can only call it as I see it ....
>
> Have a good weekend.
>
>
Neil, You may have misread my post. I seriously wanted input. All I'm
stating is that what I see is not the same you 9an dother here) see.
Presuming both of us see some form of reality it should be possible to
reconcile them.
What about the proposals I made? Are they missing the point? Are they
worth pursuing?
Cheers
Vivek CHAUDHARY
I couldn't resist jumping in the discussion. As a DBA, informix is better
than DB2. But, as an IT manager, I would like to see a database that has
tools like Oracle enterprise manager so that a newbie could run with the
database if needed. In current economic situation, companies are not willing
to hire a DBA. They would prefer to groom someone already employed
(developer or data analyst).
Vivek
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-inf...@iiug.org [mailto:owner-inf...@iiug.org] On
Behalf Of Neil Truby
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 1:50 PM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
"Serge Rielau" <sri...@ca.eye-be-em.com> wrote in message
news:c00t97$16a$1...@hanover.torolab.ibm.com...
> Neil Truby wrote:
> OK, so promoting the product is an issue. It certainly is a known one.
> So reporting up that it is an issue will not do much good. How would
> you promote Informix _if_you_were_in_IBM's_shoes_ ?
I'd promote it as an IBM UNIX/Linux/NT database of choice, alongside DB2 if
they wish. Arguably technically superior to DB2 UDB. And unencumbered by
the general perception of DB2 as a mainframe product.
> Let's stay reasonable, though. DB2 is and will be the flagship brand.
> When negotiating you have to acknowledge unnegotiable points.
Well, to be accurate, DB2 is the brand, and DB2 is the flagship product.
But, you're right, and I accept that it's non-negotiable. IBM execs have an
unshakeable belief in DB2, the product. Even I can see that isn't going to
change. That's why I said in an earlier post that the IIUG's aims should be
to advocate to IBM make DB2 the best possible conversion for Informix users.
But I *know* from my own experience that IBM has very badly miscalculated in
its attitude to Informix. Is it wrong to point this out?
> What should IBM do?
In my humble opinion? Promote Informix as a product in its own right.
Ignore the analysts. Try to sell it to new customers. Destroy the
impression that its actions are giving that Informix is dead. And not just
because I want Informix to be preserved (although I do). But because they
are haemoragging customers to the competition. Informix users are showing
by deed and in their droves that they do not want to migrate to DB2.
sending to informix-list
Vivek CHAUDHARY
Vivek
> What should IBM do?
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Candy McCall
Rename IDS to DB2.
Rename Informix-SE to DB2-Lite
:-)
Obnoxio The Clown
> I couldn't resist jumping in the discussion. As a DBA, informix is better
> than DB2. But, as an IT manager, I would like to see a database that has
> tools like Oracle enterprise manager so that a newbie could run with the
> database if needed. In current economic situation, companies are not
> willing to hire a DBA. They would prefer to groom someone already employed
> (developer or data analyst).
Sadly, if you want nice flashy tools that make it easy for retards to run
databases, there is only the One Database to Rule Them
All...SquealyServer... :o(
Obnoxio The Clown
> Rename IDS to DB2.
> Rename Informix-SE to DB2-Lite
> :-)
But then all the DB2 DBAs would be out of jobs. Hmmm...
>> > What should IBM do?
>>
>> In my humble opinion? Promote Informix as a product in its own right.
>> Ignore the analysts. Try to sell it to new customers. Destroy the
>> impression that its actions are giving that Informix is dead. And not
>> just
>> because I want Informix to be preserved (although I do). But because
>> they
>> are haemoragging customers to the competition. Informix users are
>> showing by deed and in their droves that they do not want to migrate to
>> DB2.
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ą dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
Candy McCall
Rename IDS to DB2.
Rename Informix-SE to DB2-Lite
:-)
>
> > What should IBM do?
>
> In my humble opinion? Promote Informix as a product in its own right.
> Ignore the analysts. Try to sell it to new customers. Destroy the
> impression that its actions are giving that Informix is dead. And not just
> because I want Informix to be preserved (although I do). But because they
> are haemoragging customers to the competition. Informix users are showing
> by deed and in their droves that they do not want to migrate to DB2.
>
ifxdev
Check Server Studio JE at:
www.serverstudio.com
It does pretty much everything what Oracle Enterprise manager does.
Vivek CHAUDHARY <vivek.c...@st.com> wrote in message news:<c08m1d$35r$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com>...
Rodney Sheppard
If it had 'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was
really Informix.
I for one am sick of seeing DB2 mentioned on this group.
If Informix is merged into DB2, and the becomes no longer
available in its curent form, AND NAME, I'll be moving to
MSSQL for windows, and Mysql for Unix.
Rod
----- Original Message -----
From: "Candy McCall" <can...@olcinc.com>
To: "Informix List" <inform...@iiug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
Rodney Sheppard
Rod
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Mark D. Stock
Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
> Candy McCall wrote:
>
>
>>Rename IDS to DB2.
>>Rename Informix-SE to DB2-Lite
>>:-)
>
>
> But then all the DB2 DBAs would be out of jobs. Hmmm...
What, all 3 of them? :-)
Mark D. Stock
Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
Cheers,
--
Mark.
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Obnoxio The Clown
> If it had 'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was
> really Informix.
> I for one am sick of seeing DB2 mentioned on this group.
> If Informix is merged into DB2, and the becomes no longer
> available in its curent form, AND NAME, I'll be moving to
> MSSQL for windows, and Mysql for Unix.
What a petulant and childish attitude. I second the motion! :o)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Candy McCall" <can...@olcinc.com>
>
>> Rename IDS to DB2.
>> Rename Informix-SE to DB2-Lite
>> :-)
>>
>> >
>> > > What should IBM do?
>> >
>> > In my humble opinion? Promote Informix as a product in its own right.
>> > Ignore the analysts. Try to sell it to new customers. Destroy the
>> > impression that its actions are giving that Informix is dead. And not
> just
>> > because I want Informix to be preserved (although I do). But because
> they
>> > are haemoragging customers to the competition. Informix users are
> showing
>> > by deed and in their droves that they do not want to migrate to DB2.
--
Obnoxio The Clown
> Obnoxio The Clown wrote:
>
>> Candy McCall wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Rename IDS to DB2.
>>>Rename Informix-SE to DB2-Lite
>>>:-)
>>
>> But then all the DB2 DBAs would be out of jobs. Hmmm...
>
> What, all 3 of them? :-)
MeeeOW! :o)
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
Tim Schaefer
Is IBM willing to talk about NEW Informix customers? I heard
something awhile back that there are some new Informix customers
but haven't heard anything lately. The savage comments about
DB2 like the one below are a clear indicator that many people
simply haven't looked at anything else besides their beloved
Informix. Wait till you get in a position to hire people to
support various database products, you might learn some things
about what managers are looking for vs a bunch of angry techies.
Go look at the college grads today, this years' crop, and see
what you have to work with, you'll find out quickly what I'm
talking about.
By the way, just in reading some of the feature requests people
are looking for, it does put some chinks in the Informix armor.
Some of those requested features are already available in competing
products. DB2 doesn't look that bad in the final analysis even
with some of the "superior" features of Informix. Maybe some of
that "superiority" isn't.
Tim
"Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c0a6v6$13ljdn$2...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
Obnoxio The Clown
> The marketplace has a wonderful way of changing peoples minds.
In Amurrica, maybe. Not here in the real world. :o)
> Is IBM willing to talk about NEW Informix customers? I heard
> something awhile back that there are some new Informix customers
> but haven't heard anything lately. The savage comments about
> DB2 like the one below are a clear indicator that many people
> simply haven't looked at anything else besides their beloved
> Informix. Wait till you get in a position to hire people to
> support various database products, you might learn some things
> about what managers are looking for vs a bunch of angry techies.
> Go look at the college grads today, this years' crop, and see
> what you have to work with, you'll find out quickly what I'm
> talking about.
>
> By the way, just in reading some of the feature requests people
> are looking for, it does put some chinks in the Informix armor.
> Some of those requested features are already available in competing
> products. DB2 doesn't look that bad in the final analysis even
> with some of the "superior" features of Informix. Maybe some of
> that "superiority" isn't.
>
> "Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c0a6v6$13ljdn$2...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
>> Rodney Sheppard wrote:
>>
>> > If it had 'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was
>> > really Informix.
>> > I for one am sick of seeing DB2 mentioned on this group.
>> > If Informix is merged into DB2, and the becomes no longer
>> > available in its curent form, AND NAME, I'll be moving to
>> > MSSQL for windows, and Mysql for Unix.
>>
>> What a petulant and childish attitude. I second the motion! :o)
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
Tim Schaefer
then DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just
take it. Same for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from
'merica.
:o)
I just get teary eyed at the thought of how great my country is!
Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
LOL
"Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c0al6a$13r3bm$1...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
Obnoxio The Clown
> Hmmmm. I'm sensing some jealousy... Informix came from 'merica,
> then DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just
> take it. Same for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from
> 'merica.
Linux came from Unix? Jeez, I'm sure that will come as a surprise to Linus.
Best you tell SCO, so they can sue someone for a large wedge of cash. Oh.
Never mind.
> I just get teary eyed at the thought of how great my country is!
> Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
> it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
I too, do not need a coat today. I am quite comfortable with the temperature
here, thanks. :o)
Rodney Sheppard
My experience as a small developer in Australia, is that our
clients, if told Informix was nolonger supported/available,
would prefer we move to MSSQL. Which is a lot of
work since our server platform is SCO / Linux.
We are seriously looking at a move to Open Source DB,
Linux or CygWin if the customer insists in Windows server.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com>
To: <inform...@iiug.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
> The marketplace has a wonderful way of changing peoples minds.
>
> Is IBM willing to talk about NEW Informix customers? I heard
> something awhile back that there are some new Informix customers
> but haven't heard anything lately. The savage comments about
> DB2 like the one below are a clear indicator that many people
> simply haven't looked at anything else besides their beloved
> Informix. Wait till you get in a position to hire people to
> support various database products, you might learn some things
> about what managers are looking for vs a bunch of angry techies.
> Go look at the college grads today, this years' crop, and see
> what you have to work with, you'll find out quickly what I'm
> talking about.
>
> By the way, just in reading some of the feature requests people
> are looking for, it does put some chinks in the Informix armor.
> Some of those requested features are already available in competing
> products. DB2 doesn't look that bad in the final analysis even
> with some of the "superior" features of Informix. Maybe some of
> that "superiority" isn't.
>
> Tim
>
> "Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0a6v6$13ljdn$2...@ID-64669.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Rodney Sheppard wrote:
> >
> > > If it had 'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was
> > > really Informix.
> > > I for one am sick of seeing DB2 mentioned on this group.
> > > If Informix is merged into DB2, and the becomes no longer
> > > available in its curent form, AND NAME, I'll be moving to
> > > MSSQL for windows, and Mysql for Unix.
> >
> > What a petulant and childish attitude. I second the motion! :o)
> >
>
>
>
>
sending to informix-list
Rodney Sheppard
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Neil Truby
news:aS4Wb.70395$uk5....@fe08.usenetserver.com...
> Hmmmm. I'm sensing some jealousy... Informix came from 'merica,
> then DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just
> take it. Same for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from
> 'merica.
> Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
> it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
Passing in dignfied fashion over the "My country's nicer than yours" debate,
and pausing only to point out that, as the great French philosipher Arsene
Wenger once observed, "Everyone thinks he has the prettiest wife at home".
(Except me of course!): ...
Do you , Dear Reader, see no dangers for IBM in this attitude ("If it had
'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was really
Informix...."), or do you think it's easy to dismiss as the rantings of a
bitter techie, and unlikely to be reflected by a real decision-maker?
Obnoxio The Clown
> "Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com> wrote in message
> news:aS4Wb.70395$uk5....@fe08.usenetserver.com...
>> Hmmmm. I'm sensing some jealousy... Informix came from 'merica,
>> then DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just
>> take it. Same for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from
>> 'merica.
>> I just get teary eyed at the thought of how great my country is!
>> Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
>> it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
>
> Passing in dignfied fashion over the "My country's nicer than yours"
> debate, and pausing only to point out that, as the great French
> philosipher Arsene Wenger once observed, "Everyone thinks he has the
> prettiest wife at home". (Except me of course!): ...
Oh, I don't know. I thought your wife was rather fetching, myself. And
wasn't he a philosopher?
> Do you , Dear Reader, see no dangers for IBM in this attitude ("If it had
> 'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was really
> Informix...."), or do you think it's easy to dismiss as the rantings of a
> bitter techie, and unlikely to be reflected by a real decision-maker?
It's easy to dismiss as the rantings of a bitter techie, because it's just
how I feel. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, though.
Since the acquisition of Informix I have been forced into dealings not only
with Informixers, but also with Blue Blooded Lifetime IBMers. They have all
pretty much been nice, decent, normal people, but somehow dealing with IBM
is just excruciating, especially when compared to the Good Old Days. I can
see why a lot of small to medium businesses would rather forgo Informix to
avoid dealing with IBM. Still, no great loss to IBM, I'm sure.
Neil Truby
> Neil Truby wrote:
> >
> > Passing in dignfied fashion over the "My country's nicer than yours"
> > debate, and pausing only to point out that, as the great French
> > philosipher Arsene Wenger once observed, "Everyone thinks he has the
> > prettiest wife at home". (Except me of course!): ...
>
> Oh, I don't know. I thought your wife was rather fetching, myself. And
> wasn't he a philosopher?
Actually, he's the coach of Arsenal Football Club, noted for his ability to
see the wrong decision given against his team across a crowded pitch on a
foggy night and with 22 players, a ref and a linesman in the way, but
certain to be curiously "unsighted" should one of his own players launch a
machete attack in broad daylight at a distance of 2 metres.
> Since the acquisition of Informix I have been forced into dealings not
only
> with Informixers, but also with Blue Blooded Lifetime IBMers. They have
all
> pretty much been nice, decent, normal people, but somehow dealing with IBM
> is just excruciating, especially when compared to the Good Old Days. I can
> see why a lot of small to medium businesses would rather forgo Informix to
> avoid dealing with IBM. Still, no great loss to IBM, I'm sure.
Not sure if this is irony. IBM is spending millions promulgating its "We
Love SMB" message at the moment, so presumably they do care very much
indeed, or at least have a directive to pretend to care.
Last summer, after consuming the best part of a couple of bottles of wine
with aforementioned fetching wife, I emailed the Head Honcho of IBM UK
pointing out that, just occasionally, the expensive "We Love SMB" message
can just be a tiny bit at odds with the reality of the way in which small
customers and partners are treated down here on Planet Earth. He hasn't
actually replied as yet ...!
Tim Schaefer
in its origins. ( Or Stonehenge, Old School, etc. ) I think
IBM sees the world differently than Informix peoples do, they see a
world of opportunity, Informix people see a future without their
beloved database engine. I personally LIVE without Informix on
any system I work on, at home or at work, having mourned the loss
and have been living post-informix now for the past 4 years. Sure
I miss it, but the market today could not care less about Informix.
So, to stand up like mice in defiance of the Eagle or the Owl that is
about to pounce on them is futile for Informix people. I can only
thank Informix for a great education in data base engine design and
operation. Informix took some of its 7.x design from DB2 in its
infancy, and adapted it. Now DB2 is taking Informix in its rebirth.
The reality I see today for businesses is that they want something
that simply works simply, and if that comes at a price of performance
management then so be it. The bar to jump over is now SQL-Server,
and Oracle, everything else is irrelevant. The database market is
being redefined. Sure, MySQL has a place, guess what it replaced?
Informix-SE. I have production work on MySQL that is not appropriate
or even possible with SQL-Server, but MySQL has limitations that I
can't use it for other things. The crop of available talent to work
on systems has changed too, managers need systems that can be run
by a new tech crowd that doesn't know shell-script, and would rather
solve problems inside SQL, instead of the world I came from where we
solved as many problems as we could outside the database, and then,
only when absolutely necessary did we manipulate data inside the
database.
If I hand you three slips of paper, each one having a brand, SQL-Server,
DB2, and Oracle, what will you pick for the enterprise? You will begin
to understand the post-informix world. After a careful review of these
three, DB2 scales better, embraces open-systems, works a lot like Informix,
and can MPP cluster "certified" up to 1000 servers sans XPS. Oracle has
only shown 8 cluster capability, 10G is still smokeware, and not nearly as
flexible in architecture as DB2. Take Informix out of your world and
you'll begin to understand.
Tim
"Neil Truby" <neil....@ardenta.com> wrote in message news:c0cqpo$16752r$1...@ID-162943.news.uni-berlin.de...
Neil Truby
> If I hand you three slips of paper, each one having a brand, SQL-Server,
> DB2, and Oracle, what will you pick for the enterprise? You will begin
> to understand the post-informix world. After a careful review of these
> three, DB2 scales better, embraces open-systems, works a lot like
Informix,
> and can MPP cluster "certified" up to 1000 servers sans XPS. Oracle has
> only shown 8 cluster capability, 10G is still smokeware, and not nearly as
> flexible in architecture as DB2. Take Informix out of your world and
> you'll begin to understand.
Dare I suggest that you're missing the point?
You're arguing that, in many ways in which we Informix die-hards won't
accept, DB2's functionality, scalability and ease of use is superior to that
of Informix. We should infer from this justification for IBM's decision to
allow Informix to die (from a marketing perspective).
Whether you're right or not is irrelevant to this debate. We're telling you
that the experience of our own eyes is that this message - right or not - is
being ignored by Informix customers and that, as and when they leave
Informix, they do not move to DB2 but to IBM's competitors. Thus we infer
that IBM's decision to allow Informix to die (from a marketing perspective)
is flawed.
So the marketplace's answer to the question you pose above would be "Not
DB2".
Tim Schaefer
> "Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com> wrote in message
> news:BDpWb.14560$Lg6....@fe17.usenetserver.com...
>
> > If I hand you three slips of paper, each one having a brand, SQL-Server,
> > DB2, and Oracle, what will you pick for the enterprise? You will begin
> > to understand the post-informix world. After a careful review of these
> > three, DB2 scales better, embraces open-systems, works a lot like
> Informix,
> > and can MPP cluster "certified" up to 1000 servers sans XPS. Oracle has
> > only shown 8 cluster capability, 10G is still smokeware, and not nearly as
> > flexible in architecture as DB2. Take Informix out of your world and
> > you'll begin to understand.
>
> Dare I suggest that you're missing the point?
>
Dare I suggest you should be in drama school? Dare I suggest a good
Shakespear play to start with? :-)
> You're arguing that, in many ways in which we Informix die-hards won't
> accept, DB2's functionality, scalability and ease of use is superior to that
> of Informix. We should infer from this justification for IBM's decision to
> allow Informix to die (from a marketing perspective).
>
Ok...I simply read the market differently than you do. IBM should care about
Informix customers because:________________ vs going after the larger market
of Microsoft and Oracle customers.
> Whether you're right or not is irrelevant to this debate. We're telling you
> that the experience of our own eyes is that this message - right or not - is
> being ignored by Informix customers and that, as and when they leave
> Informix, they do not move to DB2 but to IBM's competitors. Thus we infer
> that IBM's decision to allow Informix to die (from a marketing perspective)
> is flawed.
>
OK, so how many verifiable Informix customers left for Oracle or other
products? I would also question that many of these customers are solely on
Informix. Very few projects I can ever remember ever were on just one
engine. Moving to another product in many cases means really just expanding
on one, and phasing the other out. So the "migration" may not be as simple
as you suggest.
> So the marketplace's answer to the question you pose above would be "Not
> DB2".
>
I think some solid numbers regarding attrition would be good. You might be able
to get the IIUG involved, they might have inroads to understanding the reality
by the numbers. Some solid facts regarding this might provide a better
foundation than inuendo and rumor. The larger the customer the more I'd tend
to believe they were using all kinds of products, not just Informix.
Tim
Hamilton, Jerry
>>>"Everyone thinks he has the prettiest wife at home".
>>>(Except me of course!): ...
Not true, I've met your wife and she's a very lovely lady....
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Truby [mailto:neil....@ardenta.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:58 AM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
"Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com> wrote in message
news:aS4Wb.70395$uk5....@fe08.usenetserver.com...
> Hmmmm. I'm sensing some jealousy... Informix came from 'merica, then
> DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just take it. Same
> for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from 'merica.
> I just get teary eyed at the thought of how great my country is!
> Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
> it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
Passing in dignfied fashion over the "My country's nicer than yours" debate,
and pausing only to point out that, as the great French philosipher Arsene
Wenger once observed, "Everyone thinks he has the prettiest wife at home".
(Except me of course!): ...
Do you , Dear Reader, see no dangers for IBM in this attitude ("If it had
'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was really
Informix...."), or do you think it's easy to dismiss as the rantings of a
bitter techie, and unlikely to be reflected by a real decision-maker?
sending to informix-list
Obnoxio The Clown
> If I hand you three slips of paper, each one having a brand, SQL-Server,
> DB2, and Oracle, what will you pick for the enterprise? You will begin
> to understand the post-informix world. After a careful review of these
> three, DB2 scales better, embraces open-systems, works a lot like
> Informix,
> and can MPP cluster "certified" up to 1000 servers sans XPS. Oracle has
> only shown 8 cluster capability, 10G is still smokeware, and not nearly as
> flexible in architecture as DB2. Take Informix out of your world and
> you'll begin to understand.
I can only assume you haven't actually _used_ DB2 EEE yet? As you are an
ex-XPS bigot, I can only imagine the crushing disappointment that awaits...
Obnoxio The Clown
> I think some solid numbers regarding attrition would be good. You might be
> able to get the IIUG involved, they might have inroads to understanding
> the reality
> by the numbers. Some solid facts regarding this might provide a better
> foundation than inuendo and rumor. The larger the customer the more I'd
> tend to believe they were using all kinds of products, not just Informix.
Here is a number for you: 0. This is the exact number of people I have seen
migrate from IDS to DB2 with my own eyes. Coincidentally, this is the exact
number of verified rumours of clients that I know of, who have or intend to
migrate from IDS to DB2.
Every single client that I know if that _is_ migrating or thinking about it,
is evaluating Oracle, SQL Server or (God help me) open source databases.
How many of my clients or ex-clients are in this boat? Probably < 10% of
the clients _I_ have worked on. But other people may be in different
situations.
I don't know everyone everywhere, but I do get around a bit (fnaar!) and I
can't really see that Neil is putting about any innuendo.
Fetching wife or not.
Hamilton, Jerry
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Obnoxio The Clown
>>>>"Everyone thinks he has the prettiest wife at home".
>>>>(Except me of course!): ...
>
> Not true, I've met your wife and she's a very lovely lady....
Hey! I was there first!
(Apart from Neil, of course.)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neil Truby [mailto:neil....@ardenta.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:58 AM
> To: inform...@iiug.org
> Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
>
>
> "Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com> wrote in message
> news:aS4Wb.70395$uk5....@fe08.usenetserver.com...
>> Hmmmm. I'm sensing some jealousy... Informix came from 'merica, then
>> DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just take it. Same
>> for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from 'merica.
>> I just get teary eyed at the thought of how great my country is!
>> Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
>> it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
>
> Passing in dignfied fashion over the "My country's nicer than yours"
> debate, and pausing only to point out that, as the great French
> philosipher Arsene Wenger once observed, "Everyone thinks he has the
> prettiest wife at home". (Except me of course!): ...
>
> Do you , Dear Reader, see no dangers for IBM in this attitude ("If it had
> 'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was really
> Informix...."), or do you think it's easy to dismiss as the rantings of a
> bitter techie, and unlikely to be reflected by a real decision-maker?
>
> sending to informix-list
--
Vivek CHAUDHARY
well said.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-inf...@iiug.org [mailto:owner-inf...@iiug.org] On
Behalf Of Neil Truby
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:19 AM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
"Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com> wrote in message
news:BDpWb.14560$Lg6....@fe17.usenetserver.com...
> If I hand you three slips of paper, each one having a brand,
> SQL-Server, DB2, and Oracle, what will you pick for the enterprise?
> You will begin to understand the post-informix world. After a careful
> review of these three, DB2 scales better, embraces open-systems, works
> a lot like
Informix,
> and can MPP cluster "certified" up to 1000 servers sans XPS. Oracle
> has only shown 8 cluster capability, 10G is still smokeware, and not
> nearly as flexible in architecture as DB2. Take Informix out of your
> world and you'll begin to understand.
Dare I suggest that you're missing the point?
You're arguing that, in many ways in which we Informix die-hards won't
accept, DB2's functionality, scalability and ease of use is superior to that
of Informix. We should infer from this justification for IBM's decision to
allow Informix to die (from a marketing perspective).
Whether you're right or not is irrelevant to this debate. We're telling you
that the experience of our own eyes is that this message - right or not - is
being ignored by Informix customers and that, as and when they leave
Informix, they do not move to DB2 but to IBM's competitors. Thus we infer
that IBM's decision to allow Informix to die (from a marketing perspective)
is flawed.
So the marketplace's answer to the question you pose above would be "Not
DB2".
sending to informix-list
Vivek CHAUDHARY
well said.
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Hamilton, Jerry
>>>"Everyone thinks he has the prettiest wife at home".
>>>(Except me of course!): ...
Not true, I've met your wife and she's a very lovely lady....
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil Truby [mailto:neil....@ardenta.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:58 AM
To: inform...@iiug.org
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
"Tim Schaefer" <t...@spamethnot.com> wrote in message
news:aS4Wb.70395$uk5....@fe08.usenetserver.com...
> Hmmmm. I'm sensing some jealousy... Informix came from 'merica, then
> DB2, looks like in the long-run you'll continue to just take it. Same
> for Linux, which came from UNIX, which came from 'merica.
> I just get teary eyed at the thought of how great my country is!
> Excuse me now I have to go to work without wearing a coat today,
> it's so nice and warm here in FLORIDA EAT YOUR HEART OUT CLOWN.
Passing in dignfied fashion over the "My country's nicer than yours" debate,
and pausing only to point out that, as the great French philosipher Arsene
Wenger once observed, "Everyone thinks he has the prettiest wife at home".
(Except me of course!): ...
Do you , Dear Reader, see no dangers for IBM in this attitude ("If it had
'DB2' in the name I wouldn't go near it, even if it was really
Informix...."), or do you think it's easy to dismiss as the rantings of a
bitter techie, and unlikely to be reflected by a real decision-maker?
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Rodney Sheppard
Just to clarify,
The so called bitter techie referred to here,, is actually part owner, and
head developer
in as small private company, (i.e.. the real decision-maker). We provide
TURN KEY
Billing and Directory Systems. Our clients are medium to large size
government,
education and private companies. In most cases the client isn't aware and
doesn't
care what the underling DB is. In the cases that do question the DB used, it
is
invariably asked of us, "why do I have to by Informix Runtime licenses,
can't we use
the MSSQL DB we already have!". In 18 years in Development I have Never been
asked, "does your product work on DB2?".
Rod Sheppard
Development Manager
Transmit Pty Ltd
r...@transmit.com.au
Rodney Sheppard
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Jack Parker
Umm, where might you be fetching her from and why (or why not)? Does Neil
have anything to say about this sort of thing? And why on earth are we
dragging Neil's wife into this at all? If I were Neil's wife (which I most
certainly am not) I might have a word or 2,068 to say about my 'name' being
dragged about in the proverbial innuendo here.
cheers
j.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Obnoxio The Clown" <obn...@hotmail.com>
To: <inform...@iiug.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: These crazy emails about IDS to DB2 conversion
> Tim Schaefer wrote:
>
[yad-di-yah]
>
> I don't know everyone everywhere, but I do get around a bit (fnaar!) and I
> can't really see that Neil is putting about any innuendo.
>
> Fetching wife or not.
>
> --
> "C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
> - Coluche
>
sending to informix-list
Jack Parker
cheers
j.
sending to informix-list
sending to informix-list
Colin Bull
Tim Schaefer wrote
> I thought the comment about not going near DB2 was Neanderthal
> in its origins. ( Or Stonehenge, Old School, etc. )
We spent approx 150k USD on support and IDS9.4 licences.
We were sent 200 DB2 CDs.
It took 6 weeks to get IDS CDs.
We could have downloaded software, but it took 6 weeks and 1 day to
sort out the passwords. I consider Pisspoor Advantage appropriate.
I do not need this unnecessary grief at work.
I can understand this attitude entirely.
Colin Bull
c.b...@videonetworks.com
________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all known viruses by the MessageLabs Email
Security System.
________________________________________________________________________
sending to informix-list
Colin Bull
Colin Bull
Jack Parker wrote
>If I were Neil's wife (which I most
> certainly am not) I might have a word or 2,068 to say about
> my 'name' being dragged about in the proverbial innuendo here.
>
I she is like most women, she is probably glad she has got more attention
here, than from her old man in the last 10 years.
>
Colin (only here for the 'beer') Bull
Colin Bull
sending to informix-list
Neil Truby
news:c0fs6d$dc0$1...@terabinaries.xmission.com...
>
>
> Jack Parker wrote
> >If I were Neil's wife (which I most
> > certainly am not) I might have a word or 2,068 to say about
> > my 'name' being dragged about in the proverbial innuendo here.
> >
> I she is like most women, she is probably glad she has got more attention
> here, than from her old man in the last 10 years.
Funnily enough, when I told her she was being discussed in this way, she was
flattered to hear that Obnoxio had described her as "felching", and
positively cat-got-the-cream delighted that "that gorgeous guy Jerry"
Hamilton thinks she's "lovely".
Neil Truby
> Funnily enough, when I told her she was being discussed in this way, she
was
> flattered to hear that Obnoxio had described her as "felching" ...
Er, "fetching".
Obnoxio The Clown
This is another of Freudian slips I keep hearing about, isn't it? I'd be
impressed (disturbed, even) if she could felch. But I suspect I'm already
getting to know far more about your private life than I ever needed to...
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien ą dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche
David Williams
"Neil Truby" <neil....@ardenta.com> wrote in message
news:c0gqlh$16muu5$1...@ID-162943.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
Rob Vorbroker
I feel rather left out. Although I've met Neil a few
times I don't remember actually having the pleasure of
the company of Mrs. Truby. Afraid I'm missing out...
Rob
=====
Rob Vorbroker Phone: 513/336-8695
Vorbroker Consulting, Inc. Fax: 513/336-6812
www.vorbroker.com ro...@vorbroker.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
sending to informix-list
Rob Vorbroker
sending to informix-list
Obnoxio The Clown
>
> I feel rather left out. Although I've met Neil a few
> times I don't remember actually having the pleasure of
> the company of Mrs. Truby. Afraid I'm missing out...
She's lovely. Can't imagine what she sees in Neil... :o)
--
"C'est pas parce qu'on n'a rien à dire qu'il faut fermer sa gueule"
- Coluche