A rant against Oracle's SQL*Plus!
David Cook
(aka SQL*Plus) for about 2-3 months now. (And, as
a comparison, I've also used the 'freeware' MySQL
cmd-line SQL client.)
And, I'm almost dumb-founded at how archaic
and primitive that SQL*Plus is! The lack of
what I call 'useability' features in SQL*Plus
is so bad (in my opinion) that I now affectionately
call it SQL-minus.
I don't want to make this rant go on too long, so
I'll try for just a short list of the more obvious missing
features (those that seem almost trivial to implement
if Oracle cared to):
o Click on help. (The menu-item is there, but it
tells you to go find a hard-copy of the
manual!) Come on, folks. Couldn't you
even provide a simple list of the cmds, such
as SELECT, UPDATE, (etc), and the list
of 'proprietary-to-Oracle' cmds?
o Why can't continued-hits of the up-arrow key
retrieve previously-issued cmds? (The only
cmd that can be recalled that way is the most
recent one.) [Yeah, there IS some built-in
goofy UI for 'retrieving/editing previous cmds,
but again you need some frigging manual and
some non-trivial 'practicing time' to figure out their
'wierldly-implemented' scheme and learn it.]
o Here's my FAVORITE one: How about a
(albeit proprietary) cmd to 'show names of all
tables' in the current DB? [This is a no-brainer,
and I was pleased to learn that MySQL developers
saw fit to implement this one...as well as a number
of others which are almost as obvious!]
I'll stop here. But, I still can't believe that the supposed
'industry-leading database supplier' can get away with
shipping such a primitive SQL tool as 'SQL Minus'.
My 2-cents (no, 2-dollars) worth...
Dave
Jim Kennedy
might like better.
You can also get toad from quest software.
Jim
"David Cook" <David...@comcast.HIDDEN.net> wrote in message
news:bGW89.122169$2p2.5...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Galen Boyer
> I've been working with Oracle DB client (8i) on NT
> (aka SQL*Plus) for about 2-3 months now. (And, as
> a comparison, I've also used the 'freeware' MySQL
> cmd-line SQL client.)
>
> And, I'm almost dumb-founded at how archaic
> and primitive that SQL*Plus is!
It is the one interface that is completely trustable.
> The lack of what I call 'useability' features in SQL*Plus is so bad
> (in my opinion) that I now affectionately call it SQL-minus.
>
> I don't want to make this rant go on too long, so
> I'll try for just a short list of the more obvious missing
> features (those that seem almost trivial to implement
> if Oracle cared to):
> o Click on help. (The menu-item is there, but it
> tells you to go find a hard-copy of the
> manual!) Come on, folks. Couldn't you
> even provide a simple list of the cmds, such
> as SELECT, UPDATE, (etc), and the list
> of 'proprietary-to-Oracle' cmds?
I don't get it. Learn SQL.
> o Why can't continued-hits of the up-arrow key
> retrieve previously-issued cmds? (The only
> cmd that can be recalled that way is the most
> recent one.) [Yeah, there IS some built-in
> goofy UI for 'retrieving/editing previous cmds,
> but again you need some frigging manual and
> some non-trivial 'practicing time' to figure out their
> 'wierldly-implemented' scheme and learn it.]
Most people I see using it, code in some other editing thingy and then
paste the SQL in. I use Emacs and have its history mechanisms so I code
at the SQLPlus command line. I have seen some guys use s/x/y/ or
something like that to change some previous line and then hit `/'.
> o Here's my FAVORITE one: How about a
> (albeit proprietary) cmd to 'show names of all
> tables' in the current DB? [This is a no-brainer,
cat << EOF > table.sql
select table_name from user_tables order by table_name;
EOF
Now, anytime you are in SQLPLUS and you need your list, type the
command.
SQL>@table
No brainer.
> and I was pleased to learn that MySQL developers saw fit to
> implement this one...as well as a number of others which are
> almost as obvious!]
>
> I'll stop here. But, I still can't believe that the supposed
> 'industry-leading database supplier' can get away with
> shipping such a primitive SQL tool as 'SQL Minus'.
Its completely reliable.
How nice is the MS isql command line? If you want pointy clicky, I think
there is sqlworksheet or something like that. Oracle also has seen fit
to concentrate quite a bit more effort in the engine and let DBArtisan,
Toad, SQLProgrammer, ... battle it out for database front-end query tools.
> My 2-cents (no, 2-dollars) worth...
My 2-dollars and 2-cents worth.
--
Galen deForest Boyer
Sweet dreams and flying machines in pieces on the ground.
Christopher Boyle
database. I shouldn't have to write my code in some other text editor (BTW,
textpad is great for this) and then paste it in. Please use somebody else's
program to do what ours won't. That is idiotic. It doesn't need to be so
poorly done. I use TOAD for almost everything and for the life of me can't
figure out why Oracle won't just include it with their product. (for that
matter, does anyone know if reports 9iv2 has improved or will it still crash
more often the windows and corrupt your file?)I know that people seeing this
dinky little CLI are thinking "Gee, isn't that cute and old fashioned. Where
is the version for the 90's or THIS century?" Even unix comes with a GUI
front end. There are much better tools available and I will spend my
company's money on them.
"David Cook" <David...@comcast.HIDDEN.net> wrote in message
news:bGW89.122169$2p2.5...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Fred Pierce
What's so hard about SQL> edit [filename.ext]? Your favorite editor pops
up and off you go. I use TOAD and other GUI's most of the time but still
find SQLPlus more trustworthy and capable for many tasks. Certainly
beats the built-in editors I encountered with Sybase and Ingres.
fdp
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Daniel Morgan
I understand your complaint but I would like to provide you with the
other side of as I see it.
I insist that my students only use SQL*Plus during class and here is
why.
1. It forces people to actually learn SQL and PL/SQL. No one learns
anything from point-and-click.
2. It is bullet proof.
3. It is identical on every platform, operating system, and in every
language. Learn it once ... use it anywhere.
4. (Related to the above) It is not Windows-centric
5. It is faster than any GUI at performing the same task with a GUI.
6. It allows for immediate use of new syntax and functions not possible
in a GUI
7. It is free
I have my owned licensed versions of most of the available GUI tools.
And from time-to-time use some of them. But in the end ... by strong
preference ... I do the real work in SQL*Plus.
Daniel Morgan
Christopher Boyle
work in it because it is a universal interface that it is included in every
oracle installation but:
It has nothing to do with people learning to write SQL or PL/SQL. People
still have to use another text editor to write their code if they want to do
it efficiently. I believe that the query by example interface is an
abomination on the face of the earth and should be abolished and most query
generators leave a LOT to be desired but I have still seen some pretty
crappy code independant of the interface (my own included). I still feel
that having to invoke some other editor to change a line of my query or
procedure is an indication of a poor tool. Yes, i am aware the c/old/new
will work at the prompt but it will not help me with anything but my last
query. What if I need to run the next to last procedure again? I have to
cut and paste (or highlight and right-click) the command back in if it is
till availabe in the buffer or type it over. Even our VAX allows for
arrowing up to the previous commands.
It is not free. With what I am paying in licensing fees every year it can
be called included but definetly NOT free.
Daniel Morgan
Any editor can be defined as the default editor for SQL*Plus. You do not have to
use vi or notepad. So I fail to see the issue.
Check out:
http://otn.oracle.com/docs/products/oracle8i/doc_library/817_doc/server.817/a82950/ch3.htm#1001436
Search for the following text: "Editing Commands with a System Editor"
Under that you will see easy instructions for changing the editor.
Daniel Morgan
Christopher Boyle
was that having to use an external editor is much more tedious than the
present day IDE s. I'd like a area for code that wouldn't get written over
by the results so I could execute it over again. I use SQL+ for my scripts
that generate scripts but have found it too tedious to use for development.
My preference is not to invoke another program if I want to add a field to
the query.
"Daniel Morgan" <dmo...@exesolutions.com> wrote in message
news:3D665861...@exesolutions.com...
David Cook
>>>"select table_name from user_tables"
There's really an interesting story about this one!
(This is the base-poster Dave again.)
I'll have to apologize to Oracle about this one, because
it is NOT a lack in their software. But, the above cmd
does NOT work on almost ALL of our databases.
I went back today and tried. The problem seems to be
that the DBAs (if we could only find one!) have either
inadvertently or on purpose RESTRICTED the systems
such that we can't even list the table names of our own
tables! We're quite sure it's accidental. (We are NOT
the CIA...we are Verizon. ;^) But, you can now understand
why as a newbie on the scene I was so frustrated. Our
application's database has about 30+ hard-to-spell or
remember tables, and we can't even ask SQLPlus to
list our table-names! It's almost laughable!
I'll have to strongly still disagree with you Galen, when
you responded to my complain about 'lack of online help'
with you view "Learn SQL!". As a co-worker of mine
quipped after reading your reply:
How the H*LL does this guy want us to learn SQL if
the 'help' system isn't willing to help us learn SQL?
You are putting the cart before the horse!
And, finally, to all the debate about how easy it is
to define your own EDITOR for use with SQLPlus,
I'll still point out: "Consider the plight of the occasional
user and the new user!" Even given that being able
to configure an external editor, we still consider that
an intermediate/advanced user option. It would be
TRIVIAL for Oracle to implement up-arrow recall
of previous cmds besides just the last one. So, they
should have done that LONG AGO. So, I'm
not budging on that one.
Thanks to all who posted their ideas and views.
It has been a GOOD discussion!
Cheers...
Dave
"Galen Boyer" <galen...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:ufzx77...@hotpop.com...
Galen Boyer
> Galen suggested:
>>>>"select table_name from user_tables"
>
> There's really an interesting story about this one! (This is the
> base-poster Dave again.) I'll have to apologize to Oracle about this
> one, because it is NOT a lack in their software. But, the above cmd
> does NOT work on almost ALL of our databases. I went back today and
> tried. The problem seems to be that the DBAs (if we could only find
> one!) have either inadvertently or on purpose RESTRICTED the systems
> such that we can't even list the table names of our own tables! We're
> quite sure it's accidental. (We are NOT the CIA...we are Verizon.
> ;^) But, you can now understand why as a newbie on the scene I was so
> frustrated. Our application's database has about 30+ hard-to-spell or
> remember tables, and we can't even ask SQLPlus to list our
> table-names! It's almost laughable!
I see. Then no interface would have helped you.
> I'll have to strongly still disagree with you Galen, when you
> responded to my complain about 'lack of online help' with you view
> "Learn SQL!". As a co-worker of mine quipped after reading your
> reply:
>
> How the H*LL does this guy want us to learn SQL if the 'help' system
> isn't willing to help us learn SQL? You are putting the cart before
> the horse!
I don't think it should be Oracle's job to teach anyone SQL. I don't
remember SQLServer giving me some nice SQL tutorial, or Informix either.
I don't see a learning interface when I fire up a JVM, or when I try and
code shell programs. All of those things expect that I already know
what I'm doing.
Maybe Oracle could help you out with its proprietary commands, but they
are very well documented, searchable along with everything else about
Oracle.
Try http://tahiti.oracle.com/ for starters.
Also, http://technet.oracle.com/index.html.
If you are looking for sqlplus to have links to these online versions of
help, well I could see how that might be something you would want but
not everything has to be right there and clickable. Oracle is huge.
Get used to using the online resources for help while having sqlplus be
the thing that executes what you type. (Who knows, I might be working
on something like this for Emacs ...)
> And, finally, to all the debate about how easy it is to define your
> own EDITOR for use with SQLPlus, I'll still point out: "Consider the
> plight of the occasional user and the new user!" Even given that
> being able to configure an external editor, we still consider that an
> intermediate/advanced user option.
Anybody unable to do such a trivial task will be hardpressed to actually
type anything meaningful at a sqlprompt and should not be given one in
the first place.
> It would be TRIVIAL for Oracle to implement up-arrow recall of
> previous cmds besides just the last one. So, they should have done
> that LONG AGO. So, I'm not budging on that one.
Yeah, history mechanism is poor, but most people don't code at the
sqlplus prompt. Probably akin to not coding scripts at a command
prompt. You code the script in something, maybe vi, and you execute it
at the command prompt.
One thing you can do though (if up-arrow is needed), is run your sqlplus
session from a command prompt.
Start -> Run -> cmd.
"sqlplus user/pass@host"
Then, you can use the up arrow for history that the command prompt gives
you.
Jim Kennedy
change it out (that is put in your own). Then you would bitch that it is a
crappy editor and doesn't work like the xyz editor.(eg some people love
emacs, or vi, or wordpad, notepad, quick edit, slick edit, etc.) So instead
you can have your own editor since you are going to use one anyway. Also
you could use the sql worksheet or down load TOAD free.
Jim
"Christopher Boyle" <cbo...@hargray.dot.com> wrote in message
news:ak5u43$171r$1...@news3.infoave.net...
NorwoodThree
NorwoodThree
2. SQL*Plus is tried and true. It's like vi for UNIX, effective and
proven, but not too user friendly for newbies.
3. Some of us hate GUI's. I am one of them. Remote administration
or scripting thru a GUI is idiotic. F*ck gui's man.