2nd RFD: comp.cad.imagineer
Dan Wygant
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup comp.cad.imagineer. This is not
a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.
CHANGES from previous RFD:
Minor rewording.
Newsgroup line:
comp.cad.imagineer Intergraph Imagineer CAD, + VB extensions/apps.
RATIONALE: comp.cad.imagineer
To provide a forum for the users of Intergraph Corporation's Imagineer
Computer-Aided Drafting/Design (CAD) software.
This forum will allow users to share ideas, network with their peers,
and solict advice from other users.
Presently, there is an Intergraph group in the comp hierarchy,
comp.sys.intergraph. It is proposed that a new group, comp.cad.imagineer
be added for the following reasons:
1. The comp.cad newsgroup is recognized and used specifically for CAD
products by CAD users.
2. The comp newgroup is distributed to commercial sites where the
Imagineer CAD product is being used.
At present Imagineer specific questions show up in a scattered
collection of newsgroups. This means that people don't generally know
where to go for information about Imagineer or to ask other users for
help and advice. A newsgroup for Imagineer under comp.cad would address
these issues and free these other groups from Imagineer specific question.
CHARTER: comp.cad.imagineer
As an unmoderated group, comp.cad.imagineer will be open discussion on
all aspects of Intergraph Corp. Imagineer CAD product and other software
products based on Imagineer, including and relevant third parties. The
newsgroup's purpose will include, but not be strictly limited to:
1. Sharing information about design and developement uging Imagineer's CAD
software.
2. Technical issues as they pertain to the design, implementation, and
programming using current and past Intergraph Imagineer CAD releases.
3. Applications and extensions by Intergraph or any relevant third
parties in various fields such as Architecture, Civil, Mapping/GIS,
Mechanical, Processing, Utilities.
4. VB customizations, extensions, and enhancements to Imagineer 2D CAD,
including discussion of the extensive OLE Automation capabilites.
5. Intergraph Imagineer 2D CAD Web capabilities.
6. Discussion of possible and requested enhancements in future releases.
This is not intended to be an exhaustive list by any means,
basically anything related to Intergraph's Imagineer CAD product
would be open for discussion. On comp.cad.imagineer, commercial
announcements and job posting of interest to Imagineer users could be
considered acceptable.
END CHARTER.
PROCEDURE:
This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroups
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue
for a minimum of 21 days (starting from when the first RFD for this
proposal is posted to news.announce.newgroups), after which a Call For
Votes (CFV) may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion
warrants it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.
All discussion of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.
This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet newsgroup creation
guidelines outlined in "How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "How
to Format and Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these
documents (available in news.announce.newgroups) if you have any
questions about the process.
DISTRIBUTION:
This RFD is in accordance with the Guidelines for Newsgroups
Creation, and has been cross-posted to the following relevant
newsgroups:
news.announce.newsgroups,
news.groups,
comp.cad,
comp.cad.autocad,
comp.cad.microstation,
alt.cad,
alt.sys.intergraph,
comp.sys.intergraph,
sci.electronics.cad
Proponent: Daniel F. Wygant <dfwy...@ingr.com>
--
Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
Imagineer Technical 2.0 - NDES & FOSE "Best New Product" of 1997
The next generation of CAD... Now!
See Graphics City! http://graphicscity.intergraph.com
Dan Wygant
Any comments?
dfwy...@ingr.com
Any comments? What do you think about the idea of adding
comp.cad.imagineer.programmer to this RFD?
Imagineer Technical 2.0 - The next generation of CAD... Now!
See Graphics City! http://graphicscity.intergraph.com/library/wygant
RFD: comp.cad.imagineer - http://x8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=323202102
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Russell Steinthal
In article <6cat4t$mn1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <dfwy...@ingr.com> wrote:
>Any comments? What do you think about the idea of adding
>comp.cad.imagineer.programmer to this RFD?
I've been following this proposal in news.groups since it was posted,
and I've yet to see much support for the group, or evidence that there
would be sufficient traffic to sustain the group. To add a second
group to that hierarchy (and therefore split the traffic) would only
compound the problem.
Moreover, I'm not certain a proposal to create foo.bar and foo.bar.baz
in the same proposal (such as c.c.i and c.c.i.programmer) would even
be accepted by the news.announce.newgroups moderator; it appears to
fit in that category of proposals that "create a newsgroup and a hierarchy
at the same time" which Russ listed in his recent posts of RFD's that
would not be accepted. (Russ, perhaps you'll clarify if you see this
followup?) In that case, you'd have to rename comp.cad.imagineer to
something like comp.cad.imagineer.users or the like.
-Russell
--
Russell Steinthal
<rm...@columbia.edu> Columbia College Class of 1999
<ste...@avnet.org> System Administrator, AV-Network
Paul Hermon
dfwy...@ingr.com wrote:
>
> Any comments? What do you think about the idea of adding
> comp.cad.imagineer.programmer to this RFD?
>
> >
> > REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
> > unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
> >
> > This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
> > world-wide unmoderated Usenet newsgroup comp.cad.imagineer. This is
Since there is no solid-edge newsgroup yet quite a number of solid-edge
related postings in groups such as comp.cad.solidworks and
comp.cad.pro-engineer would it not be better to make the imagineer group
more inclusive along the lines of comp.cad.intergraph (or other new name
after merger with unigraphics).
Imagineer and solid-edge share a number of common interests both being
based on the Jupiter technology.
There already exists a comp.sys.intergraph but this group tends to carry
postings mostly on hardware issues.
Paul
--
John Paul Hermon, NI Technology Centre, Cloreen Park,
Belfast, BT9 5HN, N.Ireland Tel: +44 1232 335433
mailto:p.he...@qub.ac.uk Fax: +44 1232 663715
http://www.nitc.qub.ac.uk/staff/jph/
Tim Anderson
Paul Hermon wrote in message <34EAAD...@qub.ac.uk>...
>dfwy...@ingr.com wrote:
>Since there is no solid-edge newsgroup yet quite a number of solid-edge
>related postings in groups such as comp.cad.solidworks and
>comp.cad.pro-engineer would it not be better to make the imagineer group
>more inclusive along the lines of comp.cad.intergraph (or other new name
>after merger with unigraphics).
>Imagineer and solid-edge share a number of common interests both being
>based on the Jupiter technology.
>There already exists a comp.sys.intergraph but this group tends to carry
>postings mostly on hardware issues.
>
We definitely don't want to put Imagineer and SolidEdge together in the
same newsgroup since the two products will be owned by two different
companies. Granted they do share some core technology, but they are
rather distinct in their target markets.
Tim Anderson
moc.rgni@srednart (reverse to reply)
-- or for spambots --
webmaster@localhost
abuse@localhost
spam@localhost
postmaster@localhost
Wassini
Tim Anderson wrote in message ...
both being
>>based on the Jupiter technology.
Where would I find a newsgroup about the Jupiter Platform?
--
Lars Bo Wassini, Denmark, Odense
<URL: http://wassini.person.dk>
[Remove the 'X' in my e-mail for personal replyl]
Paul Hermon
I don't know of a newsgroup but you can read about Jupiter on
Intergraph's web pages at:
http://www.intergraph.com/iss/technologies/jupiter/
Paul Hermon
Is it the case that Imagineer will not be part of the new merged
company?
The joint press release of 10 Oct 97
(http://www.ingr.com/press97/eds.htm) talks of "MCAD products of
Intergraph, including Solid Edge and EMS".
Imagineer is not specifically an MCAD product so does this mean that
Intergraph alone will market it?
>
> We definitely don't want to put Imagineer and SolidEdge together in the
> same newsgroup since the two products will be owned by two different
> companies. Granted they do share some core technology, but they are
> rather distinct in their target markets.
>
> Tim Anderson
> moc.rgni@srednart (reverse to reply)
>
--
Tim Anderson
I'm not the "Voice of Unigraphics Solutions (r)", but it is my understanding
that Imagineer will remain with Intergraph and SolidEdge will continue to
provide 2D drafting through is Draft product.
Tim Anderson
moc.rgni@srednart (reverse to reply)
Paul Hermon wrote in message <34EC09...@qub.ac.uk>...
Dan Wygant
Russell Steinthal posted to news.groups and cross-posted to other CAD related newsgroups:
> In article <6chjn2$75c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <dfwy...@ingr.com> posted to news.groups etc:
> >Hello Mr. Steinthal,
> > Can you tell me where I can find more information about "[create a newsgroup
> >and a hierarchy at the same time] which Russ listed in his recent posts of
<snip-I-got-that-from-your-first-post-Russell>
> >Perhaps a hierarchy like:
> >comp.cad.jupiter.imagineer
> >comp.cad.jupiter.imagineer.programmer
> >comp.cad.jupiter.solid-edge
> >comp.cad.jupiter.solid-edge.programmer
> >comp.cad.jupiter.geomedia
> >comp.cad.jupiter.geomedia.programmer
> >comp.cad.jupiter.misc
>
> Is there *any* reason to believe that there is sufficient traffic to
> sustain that many groups? I'm going to assume that that hierarchy was
> merely intended as a hypothetical future goal; if something like that
> actually went to a vote without significantly more evidence of
> traffic, I'd be inclined to vote against the entire proposal simply on
> the grounds that most of those groups will probably end up being
> unused.
I think there is a way large enough user and 3rd party base to sustain traffic in Imagineer, Solid Edge, and GeoMedia, but I have no numbers for you. The reason I asked about the c.c.i.programmers in
the fist place was that it had been suggested.
From the negitory feedback from Tim and from you, and no posi feedback, I will drop the subject... unless there is ANYone out there who has anything at all to say about this.
> >Personally I feel that in this case, the lack of posts is a positive statement
> >saying that there is no objection to the group. I have yet to see any post
> >objecting to the ng creation.
>
> True, but in addition to the lack of objections, there needs to be
> evidence of traffic. I recognize that the vote is supposed to gauge
> the level of interest, but it's still a good idea to provide actual
> traffic estimates in news.groups. (That's all the more true if you
> plan on proposing an entire hierarchy.)
I do not have any estimates, but our support group and I have had numerous requests for a UseNet newsgroup - if that helps any.
I have been trying to start a mirrored email list, but to no avail. yet.
I'll post another reply later today asking about how many would like a mirrored email list added to the RFD, or possibly even instead of or prior to the newsgroup/RFD.
I understand that many UseNet groups start out from email lists and that the e-list traffic is often used as the sole traffic estimate for the ng creation.
Are there any respondents out there reading this with an opinion? Speak now or forever hold your peace [or for atleast 60 days!]
>
> >Also, in support of the ng, I have received numerous replies from Imagineer
> >users and non-users alike saying they would love to see the comp.cad.imagineer
> >[c.c.i] ng created and they would subscribe and follow c.c.i. I have asked
> >them all to post to news.groups to let the n.g "regulars" like you know that
> >there is a healthy backing, but only a few have done so.
>
> I hate to be constantly negative about the proposal and your comments,
> but I think it's important to note that there is a difference between
> people expressing their support for a group on a particular subject
> and evidence that people are actually talking about a particular
> subject on the net; while support is good, actual traffic is an order
> of magnitude better. Can you point to discussion of Imagineer in the
> existing *.cad.* groups? On mailing lists?
If the UUV had any objections to c.c.i then they should speak up. In the newsgroup. I think there would be quite a bit of threading if they would just speak their collective mind. Not likely, they are
waaay hands off these days except in flaming wars and obviously trivial newsgroups. I don't think this is even a borderline case of trivial. This will add real value to UseNet for future subscribers
to c.c.i and I think the UUV will agree. UUV are you out there?
As for off-topic postings, I follow alt.cad, comp.cad.* and a few others, and have seen sporadic posts. Actually, I saw a post just yesterday to one of the cad ng's requesting information about
Imagineer from users. All told I have not seen a large number of posts, but I don't feel that's a very good gauge. When posting to those groups off-topic, there is frequent [well known] tendency to
flame the poster for posting to a dedicated newsgroup.
BTW, the same is even more true about Solid Edge posts to comp.cad.solidworks. There have been many many SE posts to c.c.sw and many many replies saying "stay out of our newsgroup and get your won
newsgroup". Also, I know SE is thinking about a newsgroup, I've talked to a more than a few folks in SE that are interested in doing it. My feeling from talking to these SE folks is that they are
waiting to see if c.c.i makes the vote before they try; kind of learn by fire [c.c.i fire]. I don't feel bad about that; SE is now merged with Unigraphics and is a completely separate company. So
actually, as Tim implied they don't really belong in the same hierarchy after all. I wish them all the best and will support them if they wish to create a c.c.se newsgroup in the future.
I think the best thing then is to stay with the basic C.C.I and let the vote be the deciding factor. I'll send in my PQ today.
--
Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
Imagineer Technical 2.0 -The next generation of CAD... Now!
RFD: comp.cad.imagineer: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=323202102
Dan Wygant
Any comments?
Can any of you give me your thoughts on a mirrored email list?
If there is enough interest expressed, I will try again to find a way to make a comp.cad.imagineer email list and add that to a 3rd RFD. If the upcoming vote fails then atleast we'll have an email
list.
I'll take no comments as a negitive response.
PLEASE DO NOT JUST REPLY TO ME; POST TO news.groups!!! THE UUV NEEDS TO SEE THE INTEREST FACTOR TOO!
Dan Wygant posted to news.groupies, alt.caddy, c.s.i, c.c.a, c.c.m:
>
> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
> unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
>
> This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the creation of a
> --
> Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
> Imagineer Technical 2.0 - NDES & FOSE "Best New Product" of 1997
> The next generation of CAD... Now!
> See Graphics City! http://graphicscity.intergraph.com
--
Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
Imagineer Technical 2.0 - NDES & FOSE "Best New Product" of 1997
The next generation of CAD... Now!
Russell Steinthal
In article <34ED9557...@ingr.com>, Dan Wygant <dfwy...@ingr.com> wrote:
>Russell Steinthal posted to news.groups and cross-posted to other CAD
>related newsgroups:
>> In article <6chjn2$75c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <dfwy...@ingr.com>
>posted to news.groups etc:
>> >Hello Mr. Steinthal, Can you tell me where I can find more
>> >information about "[create a >newsgroup and a hierarchy at the
>> >same time] which Russ listed in his recent posts of RFD's that
>> >would not be accepted." I have not see the post in question and do
>>
>>
><snip-I-got-that-from-your-first-post-Russell>
Sorry... I was trying to be clear, and it appears I was just
redundant. In that case, let me be redundant once again, but concise:
I don't know of any documentation on the subject.
>> True, but in addition to the lack of objections, there needs to be
>> evidence of traffic. I recognize that the vote is supposed to gauge
>> the level of interest, but it's still a good idea to provide actual
>> traffic estimates in news.groups. (That's all the more true if you
>> plan on proposing an entire hierarchy.)
>
>I do not have any estimates, but our support group and I have had
>numerous requests for a UseNet newsgroup - if that helps any.
As I said, that helps; traffic estimates are better, but requests are
something, at least.
>I have been trying to start a mirrored email list, but to no avail. yet.
>
>I'll post another reply later today asking about how many would like a
>mirrored email list added to the RFD, or possibly even instead of or
>prior to the newsgroup/RFD.
Ok- note that I wasn't necessarily suggesting that you mirror the
newsgroup to a mailing list, but merely that one could use evidence of
traffic on an Imagineer mailing list to demonstrate potential traffic
for a newsgroup. But if you or your users want to mirror the group by
mail, that's up to you.
>> I hate to be constantly negative about the proposal and your comments,
>> but I think it's important to note that there is a difference between
>> people expressing their support for a group on a particular subject
>> and evidence that people are actually talking about a particular
>> subject on the net; while support is good, actual traffic is an order
>> of magnitude better. Can you point to discussion of Imagineer in the
>> existing *.cad.* groups? On mailing lists?
>
>If the UUV had any objections to c.c.i then they should speak up. In the
>newsgroup. I think there would be quite a bit of threading if they would
>just speak their collective mind. Not likely, they are
>waaay hands off these days except in flaming wars and obviously trivial
>newsgroups. I don't think this is even a borderline case of trivial.
>This will add real value to UseNet for future subscribers
>to c.c.i and I think the UUV will agree. UUV are you out there?
I'm afraid there's some misunderstanding here- the UUV (I assume you
mean UVV, the Usenet Volunteer Votetakers) are not concerned with
whether a group should be created or not, is trivial or not, or what
have you- their sole purpose is making sure the vote is handled in an
impartial way. Indeed, if any member of the UVV had an objection to
the group, they would post as a private individual and not for the
UVV, and then would be disqualified as acting as the votetaker for
this proposal. But again, I'm not disputing the lack of objections to
this proposal- it's well-named and doesn't have any particular
problems with moderation (it probably doesn't need it), which are the
main causes of objections from news.groups regulars.
>As for off-topic postings, I follow alt.cad, comp.cad.* and a few
>others, and have seen sporadic posts. Actually, I saw a post just
>yesterday to one of the cad ng's requesting information about
>Imagineer from users. All told I have not seen a large number of posts,
>but I don't feel that's a very good gauge. When posting to those groups
>off-topic, there is frequent [well known] tendency to
>flame the poster for posting to a dedicated newsgroup.
Why would Imagineer postings be off-topic in alt.cad? I've never read
the group, but it intuitively sounds like it should be chartered for
discussion of all CAD packages (pehaps not those packages which have
newsgroups elsewhere on Usenet).
>I think the best thing then is to stay with the basic C.C.I and let the
>vote be the deciding factor. I'll send in my PQ today.
I agree- that may be the most reasonable course of action at this
point. If the proposal comes to vote as a request to create the
single group comp.cad.imagineer, I'll abstain and let the vote judge
the interest in the group.
dfwy...@ingr.com
Russell,
I appreciate your help. Your comments have helped us solidify our RFD. See
the comments below. Thanks again, Russell.
In article <6ck7ik$12b$1...@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu>,
rm...@columbia.edu (Russell Steinthal) wrote:
> In article <34ED9557...@ingr.com>, Dan replied:
> >Russell had previously said:
> >> In article <6chjn2$75c$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, Dan commented back:
<snipped-in-the-bud>
> Ok- note that I wasn't necessarily suggesting that you mirror the
> newsgroup to a mailing list, but merely that one could use evidence of
> traffic on an Imagineer mailing list to demonstrate potential traffic
> for a newsgroup. But if you or your users want to mirror the group by
> mail, that's up to you.
If all goes as planned then Intergraph will be setting up an email list for
Imagineer on Monday. When & if c.c.i vote passes then it'll mirror the
newsgroup in the Imagineer email list.
But, I'm tempted not to post a 3rd RFD with this information. However, I
probably will after we have gotten a goodly amount of subscribers to the the
e-list. Then I think I can post some real [convincing] numerical data along
with the RFD.
> >> I hate to be constantly negative about the proposal and your comments,
Don't worry Russell; if I hadn't take your comments to heart then I wouldn't
have bothered at all to post this reply. After all you cannot be on the
leading edge of technology and not take good advise, eh?
> >I think the best thing then is to stay with the basic C.C.I and let the
> >vote be the deciding factor. I'll send in my PQ today.
>
> I agree- that may be the most reasonable course of action at this
> point. If the proposal comes to vote as a request to create the
> single group comp.cad.imagineer, I'll abstain and let the vote judge
> the interest in the group.
Change of plan. I'll wait until next week to decide if I should send in the PQ
- by then it'll be clear that there is enough interest in c.c.i and the RFD
will still be within the 30 day RFD timeframe.
Do you happen to know if it is required that I resubmit the RFD if we plan on
doing a ng e-list mirror? I do not think it is required and I do not think it
is really neccessary. But if anyone (especially n.g regulars) has an opinion
on this matter, please post a reply to the news.groups newsgroup in this
thread
[n.g'ers, don't email me directly, just post to news.groups, I follow the ng -
that what news.groups is for yah know:-]
I think it would be enough to post some stat's to the this thread in the
news.groups newsgroup.
--
Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
Imagineer Technical 2.0 - The next generation of CAD... Now!
RFD: comp.cad.imagineer: http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=323202102
See Graphics City! http://graphicscity.intergraph.com/library/wygant
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Rebecca McQuitty
<dfwy...@ingr.com> wrote:
> Change of plan. I'll wait until next week to decide if I should send in the
> PQ - by then it'll be clear that there is enough interest in c.c.i and the
> RFD will still be within the 30 day RFD timeframe.
You've got 60 days after the last RFD for a vote to start -- plenty of
time.
> Do you happen to know if it is required that I resubmit the RFD if we plan
> on doing a ng e-list mirror?
I doubt it.
--
Rebecca Graham McQuitty
Rebecca McQuitty
Dan Wygant <dfwy...@ingr.com> wrote:
> PLEASE DO NOT JUST REPLY TO ME; POST TO news.groups!!! THE UUV NEEDS
> TO SEE THE INTEREST FACTOR TOO!
The UVV's only function in newsgroup creation is to run votes. Interest
displayed in news.groups may affect how and whether some news.groupies
vote on your proposal, but it's irrelevant to the votetaker.
--
Rebecca Graham McQuitty
3student
hi
David Jellison
My feeling is that this is not yet necessary. Let the traffic build first.
David Jellison
dfwy...@ingr.com wrote in message <6cat4t$mn1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Any comments? What do you think about the idea of adding
>comp.cad.imagineer.programmer to this RFD?
>
>Dan wrote:
>>
David Jellison
Dan,
Personally, I don't really want the mirrored email list. I get enough email
and like going to the newsgroup when I am ready.
David Jellison
Dan Wygant wrote in message <34ED9838...@ingr.com>...
>Any comments?
>
>Can any of you give me your thoughts on a mirrored email list?
>If there is enough interest expressed, I will try again to find a way to
make a comp.cad.imagineer email list and add that to a 3rd RFD. If the
upcoming vote fails then atleast we'll have an email
>list.
>
>I'll take no comments as a negitive response.
>PLEASE DO NOT JUST REPLY TO ME; POST TO news.groups!!! THE UUV NEEDS TO SEE
THE INTEREST FACTOR TOO!
>
>Dan Wygant posted to news.groupies, alt.caddy, c.s.i, c.c.a, c.c.m:
>>
>> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
>> unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
>>
>> --
>> Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
>> Imagineer Technical 2.0 - NDES & FOSE "Best New Product" of 1997
>> The next generation of CAD... Now!
>> See Graphics City! http://graphicscity.intergraph.com
>
>--
>Daniel F. Wygant, Sr. S/W Analyst http://www.intergraph.com/imagine
>Imagineer Technical 2.0 - NDES & FOSE "Best New Product" of 1997
>The next generation of CAD... Now!
Dan Wygant
Thanks for the thread David,
I truely agree with you, having an email list defeats the purpose of a UseNet
newsgroup. After all the whole idea of a UseNet newsgroup is to have a place were
you can easily review the entire list of email-posts subjects and pick & choose
which email-posts to read. I've had to unsubscribe to many useful email lists for
just that reason.
Too bad creating a Usenet newsgroups is such a royal pain. These silly "rule" are
really just stifling the information revolution. Usenet could be soooo much more if
they'd just lighten up a bit [and also find a way to guarantee post propagation].
I decided to hold off on the mirrored email list. The problems with mirroring are
evident to anyone posting to a newsgroup with an email-list-mirror.
If there are, and there usually are, invalid addresses in the email-list the sender
gets the bounced email; if the invalid email address's postmaster does not
accept/use error-reply header info then when the mail bounces, it may bounce all
the way back to you, the poster. There are some newsgroups I tend to avoid just
because I dislike processing those darn bounces.
Imagineer Technical 2.0 -The next generation of CAD... Now!
Dan Wygant
Thanks again David,
Seems as if we will go to the vote an let the voters decide. I don't think anyone really wanted to do the hierarchy. I saw no positive responces to that idea. And Your take is exactly correct - let
the traffic build first.
David Jellison wrote:
> My feeling is that this is not yet necessary. Let the traffic build first.
>
> dfwy...@ingr.com wrote in message <6cat4t$mn1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >Any comments? What do you think about the idea of adding
> >comp.cad.imagineer.programmer to this RFD?
> >
> >Dan wrote:
> >>
> >> REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
> >> unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
--
Nik Simpson
Dan Wygant wrote in message <34FAC5A2...@ingr.com>...
> Too bad creating a Usenet newsgroups is such a royal pain. These silly
"rule" are
>really just stifling the information revolution. Usenet could be soooo much
more if
>they'd just lighten up a bit [and also find a way to guarantee post
propagation].
>
Dan,
the rules are not silly, if you had ever run a USENET server, you would
have a better understanding of why the rules exist. If you want a good
example of why there are rules, take a look at the anarchic development of
the ALT hierarchy where there are no rules. I would imagine the reason you
want comp.cad.imagineer not alt.cad.inagineer is precisely because the "alt"
is the wild west frontier of USENET. If you take away the rules for creation
of groups in the comp hierarchy then within a few months it will be just as
useless as the alt hierarchy. USENET cannot exist and function effectively
as an anarchy.
As to finding a way of guaranteeing post propagation, great idea, and while
we are at lets propose a lasting solution to the Arab/Israeli problems!
USENET generates around 1 million articles a day, very few of the servers on
the Internet can handle that sort of load so articles get dropped, its
inevitable and unless someone wants to throw gobs of money at the problem it
is incurable. So I'm afraid you have take USENET as it is warts and all.
--
Nik Simpson
Neil Crellin
FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
This CFV is to be distributed only by the votetaker. It is not to be
posted to newsgroups, or mailed to mailing lists or individuals, except by
the votetaker. Ballots or CFVs provided by anyone else will be invalid.
Newsgroups line:
comp.cad.imagineer Intergraph Imagineer CAD, + VB extensions/apps.
Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 8 Apr 1998.
This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Daniel F. Wygant <dfwy...@ingr.com>
Votetaker: Neil Crellin <ne...@stanford.edu>
RATIONALE: comp.cad.imagineer
To provide a forum for the users of Intergraph Corporation's Imagineer
Computer Aided Drafting/Design (CAD) software.
This forum will allow users to share ideas, network with their peers,
and solicit advice from other users.
Presently, there is an Intergraph group in the comp hierarchy,
comp.sys.intergraph. It is proposed that a new group, comp.cad.imagineer
be added for the following reasons:
1. The comp.cad newsgroup is recognized and used specifically for CAD
products by CAD users.
2. The comp newsgroup is distributed to commercial sites where the
Imagineer CAD product is being used.
At present Imagineer specific questions show up in a scattered
collection of newsgroups. This means that people don't generally know
where to go for information about Imagineer or to ask other users for
help and advice. A newsgroup for Imagineer under comp.cad would address
these issues and free these other groups from Imagineer specific questions.
CHARTER: comp.cad.imagineer
As an unmoderated group, comp.cad.imagineer will be open to discussion on
all aspects of Intergraph Corp. Imagineer CAD product and other software
products based on Imagineer, including all relevant third parties. The
newsgroup's purpose will include, but not be strictly limited to:
1. Sharing information about design and developement using Imagineer's CAD
software.
2. Technical issues as they pertain to the design, implementation, and
programming using current and past Intergraph Imagineer CAD releases.
3. Applications and extensions by Intergraph or any relevant third
parties in various fields such as Architecture, Civil, Mapping/GIS,
Mechanical, Processing, Utilities.
4. VB customizations, extensions, and enhancements to Imagineer 2D CAD,
including discussion of the extensive OLE Automation capabilites.
5. Intergraph Imagineer 2D CAD Web capabilities.
6. Discussion of possible and requested enhancements in future releases.
This is not intended to be an exhaustive list by any means,
basically anything related to Intergraph's Imagineer CAD product
would be open for discussion. On comp.cad.imagineer, commercial
announcements and job posting of interest to Imagineer users could be
considered acceptable.
END CHARTER.
IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES: READ THIS BEFORE VOTING
Standard Guidelines for voting apply. One vote per person, one account
per voter. Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.
Anonymous, forwarded or proxy votes are not valid. Votes mailed by
WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.
Vote counting is automated. Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted. If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly. Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote. Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.
The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup. Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose. Please do not distribute
this CFV. If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups. Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.
HOW TO VOTE:
Extract the ballot from the CFV by deleting everything before and after
the "BEGINNING OF BALLOT" and "END OF BALLOT" lines. Don't worry about
the spacing of the columns or any quote characters (">") that your
reply inserts. Please, DO NOT send the entire CFV back to me!
Fill in the ballot as shown below. Please provide your REAL NAME and
indicate your desired vote in the appropriate locations inside the ballot.
When finished, MAIL the ballot to: < vot...@uvv.stanford.edu >
Just "replying" to this message should work, but check the "To:" line.
Examples of how to properly indicate your vote:
[ YES ] example.yes.vote
[ NO ] example.no.vote
[ ABSTAIN ] example.abstention
[ CANCEL ] example.cancellation
DO NOT modify, alter or delete any information in this ballot!
If you do, the voting software will probably reject your ballot.
If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to
Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.stanford.edu/~neilc/uvv.
======== BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything before this line =======
.-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| 1ST CALL FOR VOTES: comp.cad.imagineer
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <CCI-0001> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Place
| ONLY your name (ie. do NOT include your e-mail address or any other
| information; ONLY your name) after the colon on the following line:
Voter name:
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
Your Vote Newsgroup
--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] comp.cad.imagineer
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
DISTRIBUTION:
Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these locations:
Raph Grabowski's UpFront eZine [ral...@xyzpress.com]
Intergraph internal exchange forum Wise Imagineer [wise_im...@ingr.com]
Intergraph employee "Ingr-Info" list [ingr...@ingr.com]
This CFV was created with uvpq 1.0 (Aug 14 1997).
PQ datestamp: 971119
--
Voting address: vot...@uvv.stanford.edu
Neil Crellin
LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer
RATIONALE: comp.cad.imagineer
CHARTER: comp.cad.imagineer
END CHARTER.
HOW TO VOTE:
| 2ND CALL FOR VOTES: comp.cad.imagineer
| Official Usenet Voting Ballot <CCI-0002> (Do not remove this line!)
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Please provide your real name, or your vote may be rejected. Place
| ONLY your name (ie. do NOT include your e-mail address or any other
| information; ONLY your name) after the colon on the following line:
Voter name:
| Insert YES, NO, ABSTAIN, or CANCEL inside the brackets for each
| newsgroup listed below (do not delete the newsgroup name):
Your Vote Newsgroup
--------- -----------------------------------------------------------
[ ] comp.cad.imagineer
======== END OF BALLOT: Delete everything after this line ==============
DISTRIBUTION:
The newsgroup sci.electronics.cad was removed from the 2nd CFV's distribution
at the proponents request, to allow propogataion to G7 sites.
Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these locations:
sci.electronics.cad
Raph Grabowski's UpFront eZine [ral...@xyzpress.com]
Intergraph internal exchange forum Wise Imagineer [wise_im...@ingr.com]
Intergraph employee "Ingr-Info" list [ingr...@ingr.com]
comp.cad.imagineer Bounce List - Please contact me about your vote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald...@ibm.net Donald Landry
Neil Crellin
RESULT
unmoderated group comp.cad.imagineer fails 77:14
There were 77 YES votes and 14 NO votes, for a total of 91 valid
votes. There were 3 abstentions and 2 invalid ballots.
For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid
(YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes
than NO votes.
A five day discussion period follows this announcement. Unless
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group
may not be voted on again for six months.
Newsgroups line:
comp.cad.imagineer Intergraph Imagineer CAD, + VB extensions/apps.
The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 8 Apr 1998.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
RATIONALE: comp.cad.imagineer
CHARTER: comp.cad.imagineer
END CHARTER.
comp.cad.imagineer Final Voter list
Voted YES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
house [at] usq.edu.au Ron House
rathouse [at] netcom.ca Bob Thomas
John.Moroskat [at] nul.ca John Moroskat
MUMFORDJ [at] 3dsystems.com Jeffrey Mumford
carygee [at] aol.com CaryG
wkc1 [at] chrysler.com W. Krik Crawford
kanya [at] ckgp.com James Kanya
sala [at] ckgp.com Phil Sala
DRTLowe [at] compuserve.com David R T Lowe
jman [at] cris.com Jason Smith
booda [at] datasync.com Martin H. Booda
CYEvans [at] ingr.com Charles Evans
delyle [at] ingr.com David E. Lyle
dfwygant [at] ingr.com Daniel Wygant
dgiard [at] ingr.com Denis Giard
dhwallac [at] ingr.com Donald H. Wallace
eabaggot [at] ingr.com Edward Baggott
jawillia [at] ingr.com Jill Williamsen
jeamis [at] ingr.com Jonathan E. Amis
jggauthi [at] ingr.com John Gauthier
rsjohns2 [at] ingr.com Robert S. Johnson
scthornt [at] ingr.com Stan Thornton
ckkhok [at] singwnt.sing.ingr.com Khok Chui Kim
srstulti [at] ingr.com Susan Rebecca Stulting
dougob [at] javanet.com Doug O'Brien
jvogel [at] jeadams.com Jerome Vogel
jcook [at] macdon.com Jon Cook
milkert [at] mindspring.com Anjani Milkert
onthescene [at] mindspring.com John Thigpen
wrwillia [at] mindspring.com Bo Williams
DavidJellison [at] msn.com David Jellison
kirmse [at] netaxs.com Kevin Dale Kirmse
hal9000 [at] oeonline.com Harold R. Goff
jimrtex [at] pipeline.com Jim Riley
Barry_Minbiole [at] praxair.com Barry A. Minbiole
symmetry [at] nycap.rr.com Tom Atkinson
dkatzen [at] sprintmail.com Dan Katzenberger
stamper [at] stamper.com Chris Stamper
arielle [at] taronga.com Stephanie da Silva
hksys [at] teleport.com Geoff Houck
an [at] toolchips.com Allan Nielsen
woodpe [at] ucarb.com Patrick E. Wood
AbrahamM [at] visio.com Abraham Mathew
rig4dive [at] voicenet.com John F. Prince
torex [at] berlin.snafu.de Tobias Erle
Schicke-electronic [at] t-online.de Utz Schicke
jdavis [at] lectura.CS.Arizona.EDU Jim Davis
glennk [at] pegasus.rutgers.edu Glenn Kurtzrock
rufinus [at] mbe.ece.wisc.edu J Rufinus
Ricardo.Rodriguez [at] sfp.cifl.cesga.es Ricardo....@sfp.cifl.cesga.es
peletash [at] eldorado.es =?iso-8859-1?Q?Pablo_Magdalena_Garc=EDa?=
jpc [at] drum.msfc.nasa.gov J. Porter Clark
Scott.Stevens [at] ies.msfc.nasa.gov Donald Scott Stevens
kerim.derencin [at] grad-rijeka.tel.hr Kerim Derencin
mrmathis [at] worldnet.att.net Mike Mathis
tony.tanzillo [at] worldnet.att.net Tony Tanzillo
mrmazda [at] gate.net Felix Miata
jmh [at] gmx.net Jan Haar
paulr [at] fly.HiWAAY.net Paul Robichaux
hugh [at] hiwaay.net Hugh Messenger
sdherold [at] HiWAAY.net Steven Herold
vpdura [at] hiwaay.net Vic Dura
wfew01 [at] ibm.net William Few
kentm [at] ilhawaii.net Kent Merrill
tc [at] Mcs.Net Thomas Cuny
hharper4 [at] mwt.net Scott L Harper
jh34327 [at] navix.net James Hurdle
ablick [at] netwiz.net Adam M. Glickman
kcarrill [at] one.net Ken Carrillo
DHrivnak [at] TRICON.NET David J. Hrivnak
drcwell [at] usit.net Rex Criswell
pimvs [at] xs4all.nl Pim
rodney [at] online.no Rodney Jensen
andrew [at] desktop.co.nz Andrew Ecker
simon [at] darkmere.gen.nz Simon Lyall
per.andreasson [at] mailbox.swipnet.se Per Andreasson
p.hermon [at] qub.ac.uk Paul Hermon
Voted NO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
chriseb [at] nortel.ca Chris Ebenezer
calabres [at] chass.utoronto.ca T.Calabrese
stainles [at] bga.com Dwight Brown
olav [at] viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar
iamcliff [at] ix.netcom.com Cliff Johnson
steiners [at] primenet.com Jason Steiner
rcurran [at] rocketmail.com Jennifer Curran
pan [at] syix.com Pan
naddy [at] mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian Weisgerber
patl [at] cag.lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti
rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
pbern7 [at] earthlink.net Paul Bernhardt
david [at] home.net.nz David Farrar
hfung [at] lerami.lerctr.org Hank Fung
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
guymacon [at] deltanet.com Guy Macon
chris [at] kzim.com Christopher Robin Zimmerman
andrew [at] erlenstar.demon.co.uk Andrew Gierth
Invalid votes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ragreene [at] HiWAAY.net Robert A. Greene
! No vote statement in message
Donald.Landry [at] ibm.net Donald Landry
! Undeliverable address
--
Neil Crellin, UVV <ne...@stanford.edu>
dpluvst...@gmail.com
$1.00 to each of the 6 names and addresses stated in the article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups. No catch, that's it.
So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured: "what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00, right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!?... within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most importantly, WHY it works... Also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it. I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you will start making more money than you thought possible by doing something so easy! Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or download it.)
Follow the simple directions and watch the money come in! It's easy. It's legal. And your investment is only $6.00 (Plus postage) IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not illegal; and it is 99% no risk - it really works! If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive extraordinary dividends. PLEASE NOTE: Follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000.00 or more can be yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its success by carefully adhering to the instructions. You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are in the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from
people like you and me asking to be included in that list. Here are the 4 easy steps to success:
STEP 1:
Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write down your name and address followed by the words "PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST" on each of them.
Now get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill will not be visible through the envelope (to prevent thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6
envelopes and seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00 bill.
**What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1- 800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal.
Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
1.) Rucci 418 Wilcox Street Carnegie, Pa. 15106
2.) Stefan B. 2903 Marquette Rd. Peru, IL. USA 61354
3.) Cody Neely, P.O. box 472, Sylvania Ga. USA 30467
4.) Sarah Mccully, 8818 w 88th st overland park, ks, USA 66212
5.)Shantoya Cohens, 2128 Creek Royal Dr., Mesquite, TX USA 75181
6.) Derek Peterson, 3089 Rose Hill St, Strasburg, CO. USA 80136
STEP 2:
Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to original as possible.
Now, post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you make! You won't get very much unless you post like crazy. This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18 Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws. Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money, you can use it again, and again. PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many others have received will come your way.
**NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you, either on a computer or hard copy and keeps the notes people send you.
This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk of mail theft.) So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed, six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business! ---
DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS----------
Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy' from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory.
Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and places your cursor at the top of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name to the list.
Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If you want to do your postings in different settings, you will, after you get the hang of it.
It will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE! BUT: YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to rent a P.O. Box due to the large amount of mail you receive..