What pay scale should I be at?
Cleanbean
architectual and building electrical drafting & design. I've free-lanced
quite a bit doing residential plans. I have an Associates (2yr. degree) in
Drafting & Design.
What do you think I should be making for this knowledge base & experience?
Yearly or hourly.... whatever your flavor.
I don't want to undercharge thus putting the industry and my checkbook to
shame :)
John in Central Texas
Craig Boggan
If you ask me it really depends on your ability, how good you are at CAD. I
have worked with Autocad and the operators of Autocad for about 12 years and
I have seen people with the same qualifications and making the same salary
but their abilities were completely different meaning I didn't feel both
should be making the same salary. On one hand you have Joe #1 that can
finish a small project in two days and it be correct, but then Joe #2 has
the same project and it takes him a week or more to complete. #1 should be
compensated more for his ability to complete the task as long as he/she has
produced accurate drawings. That was just an opinion
But to answer your question, these are salaries of other workers I know to
give you some idea what salaries are here in the SouthEast.
2 years on the job experience /Drafting only - $13.00 per hour
4 years on the job experience /Drafting only - $15.50 per hour
7 years on the job experience /Drafting with SOME design - $17-18.50 per
hour
10 years experience /Associates Degree/Drafting & Design - $19-20.00 per
hour
Hope this helps
Craig
"Cleanbean" <jbean...@sabre-electric.com> wrote in message
news:_hhI6.206945$lj4.5...@news6.giganews.com...
debra neel
I have had a bach. degree in architecture since '88. I was a job shopper for 6
years [from '90 to '96] while I lived in Austin, TX. During that time, I
regularly received $20~$25 an hour for design and drafting and $35~$50 an hour
for programming and software development.
Austin is a wierd town to free lance in because on one hand, you have all the
high tech people that have money to spend and on the other, you have people
with Master's degrees waiting tables just so they can hang out in Austin.
for what it's worth - - chris
debra neel
I have had a bach. degree in architecture since '88. I was a job shopper for 6
years [from '90 to '96] while I lived in Austin, TX. During that time, I
regularly received $20~$25 an hour for design and drafting and $35~$50 an hour
for programming and software development.
The rate I charged was determined by whether I used my equipment or not, how
long I had worked with a particular client and the difficulty or deadline of
the project,
among other things.
Austin is a wierd town to free lance in because on one hand, you have all the
high tech people that have money to spend for very specific knowledge and on
the other, you have people with Master's degrees waiting tables just so they
can hang out in Austin.
for what it's worth - - chris
J. Matthews
ground). There will be considerable differences in pay if you are in a
major metropolitan area like Dallas, Houston, New York, LA, Chicago, etc, or
if you are located out in the sticks somewhere.
Just as a very rough ballpark figure, if you were working in New York or
northern New Jersey, you should be looking at 15-20 dollars/hour if you are
intellegent and motivated (Actually this is for mechanical/hydraulic design
work, I'm not sure how well architects pay). If you head down to a place
like Knoxville Tennesse, you can reduce the max pay rate by about 5 bucks an
hour.
This isn't a knock on Knoxville; it's just so damned expensive to live in NJ
and NY they have to pay better.
--
Jim Matthews
=========================================
To reply to me, remove the "nospam-" in address header
=========================================
Cleanbean <jbean...@sabre-electric.com> wrote in message
news:_hhI6.206945$lj4.5...@news6.giganews.com...
Keith Blackie
average in New York or New Jersey. In North Florida the average starting
wage is $13.00 for 3 to 5 years exp. Expect to make a 15 to 20 percent
premium if you are a "high producer" or are located in metropolitan areas
such as Jacksonville, Orlando or Miami
J. Matthews wrote in message ...
>You did not mention which area you worked (central Texas covers a lot of
>ground). There will be considerable differences in pay if you are in a
>major metropolitan area like Dallas, Houston, New York, LA, Chicago, etc,
or
>if you are located out in the sticks somewhere.
>
>
H.C. Francis
>ground).
As a native Texan born in central Texas I must point out that "Central
Texas" is a specific term understood by most Texans and is a direct
statement of the area worked in. Austin, Texas is the largest city in
central Texas and wages for the area are wages for Austin.
Get as much as you can get but beware. If you get more than you prove to be
worth you will be looking for another job. The problem is that it takes
experience to know how much you are worth.
As for rates in Austin, I started working part-time for CDM in Austin in
1984 while I went to Southwest Texas State University in San Marcos. The
starting rate was $6/hr because I had board drafting experience. 5 years
experience, no degree, civil engineering, Intergraph and board drafting,
$10/hr in Austin, 1989. HTH
I went to Louisiana in 1989 (full-time), still with CDM and my rate changed
from $10/hr to $13.50/hr.
Moving can help break the yearly increase limits.
In late 1989 I went to California, still with CDM and my rate went to
$17.50/hr as a CADD manager. Part of the rate was because I was in So. Cal.
and its expensive to live there, part was the position. The same dollars in
different locations is not always the same pay.
Moving can help break ALL increase limits although if I had done that much
moving between different companies it would be a red flag to prospective
employers.
Most companies are happy to pay you what they think you are worth. The
problem is always that employees see themselves worth more than employers
do. Employers want to pay the least amount that will still keep you there
while employees want to get the most pay that still makes them worth
keeping. Its a balancing act.
P.S. I'm still with CDM.
--
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
H. C. Francis
PARAGLIDE - Custom Solutions in AutoCAD
sanitary & storm sewer, force main, water main,
plant piping & lots of Free Autolisp
http://paracadd.com/
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
WMHall
I am assuming that you want to know what to charge for your servises as a
free-lance CAD professional. If that's the case then you need to first know
what CAD professionals are making if they are on salary with an engineering or
architectural firm. This really depends of what part of the country you are
in, but usually ranges from about $15/hr to $25/hr, depending on experience and
ability. This would be the base wage rate. Next you need to add the following
to the base wage rate: 1. Payroll taxes - aka FICA and medicare and self
employment tax. This amounts to between 15 and 20% of the base wage rate. 2.
Overhead - a reasonable amount to cover the costs of doing business such as
software (AutoCAD, and office suite, etc.), paper, printer ink and/or toner,
your computer, etc. For most businesses this is usually between 25 and 35% of
the base wage rate. Finally you need to add a profit - the money your business
will make (NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS THE WAGES YOU PAY YOURSELF!).
Profit can range from about 5% to 20%.
The total markup on you base wage rate should therefore be between 45 and 75%.
So, based on the wage rates I discussed earlier, the actual charging rage of a
freelance CAD professional should be between $21.75 and $43.75 per hour.
Here in Illinois, I'm paying about $36.00 to a free-lance CAD professional.
Bill Hall
Dave Jones
Henry,
maybe "most" companies do that, but my company pays draftspersons between
$40 and $51 per hour. My problem is that I can't find anyone who is
unemployed, who wants to work for a living, and has any clue what they are
doing with Acad. No offense to the original poster, but 2 year degreed CAD
technicians are generally the worst that I see. No common sense, minimal CAD
skills, and most don't want to work, they just want a job.
dave.ddp
David Blythin
unless things are really quiet, anyone that's looking for a job is
unemployed for good reason! We've had a hell of a time finding good
qualified people.
Dave
"Dave Jones" <da...@ddptrinidad.com> wrote in message
news:tf6kidf...@corp.supernews.com...
H.C. Francis
> $40 and $51 per hour.
Is that $US? $80,000-$100,000 per year? Draftspersons? Where do I apply?
Or are you talking about intermittent contract positions?
Dave Jones
if you have commercial glass experience
if you have specific window and curtain wall assembly, fabrication, and
installation experience
if you are familiar with rainscreen theory
if you understand windload, deadload, and seismic reactions on window and
curtain wall assemblies
if you are familiar with regional Fed and State codes governing the design
of window and curtain walls
if you want to work 50+ hours per week (we have plenty of part time help)
if you are willing to change your drafting style to the DDP drafting style
if you have a legal registered copy of AutoCAD 2000 (no, R14 won't make it)
and, yes I have taken this opportunity to advertise our contract drafter
requirements. Our drafters are full or part time, at their choice. DDP will
produce over $1,000,000.00 in shop and design drawings this year and I
literally have to turn away as much work as we do because of the lack of
QUALIFIED draftspersons. No travel, sales, or customer contact/dealings
required...just excellent quality drafting needed.
dave.ddp
aka
Dave Jones
Drafting & Design Plus
P.O. Box 663 or 135 Himalaya Drive
Trinidad, CA 95570
(707) 677-9500 or 839-0696 Fax
da...@ddptrinidad.com
www.ddptrinidad.com
"H.C. Francis" <hfra...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Q0KI6.3493$Gx4.5...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
H.C. Francis
designers) and appears to be contract work (pay your own taxes and tools).
Now the $ make more sense.
Dave Jones
IMO the term "Designer" has a negative connotation, kinda like "Consultant",
so let's just call 'em Contractors :) And, yes they pay their own taxes,
insurance, programs, etc. FYI, I am about to raise our sheet and hourly
rates about 25% due to many factors, like the price of gasoline,
electricity, propane, natural gas, paper, ...let's see if I can think of any
other excuses...oh yeah, I haven't raised prices since '98 :) I have found
over the 11 years that I've been in business that if you provide a Quality
product and understand the construction business scheduling anomalities that
customers don't pay much attention to what it costs. The delays associated
with poor workmanship and late submittals would be much more of a hardship
than paying a few extra dollars up front to eliminate these problems. And my
customers are smart like that...
dave.ddp
"H.C. Francis" <hfra...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:tXUI6.11814$Gx4.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Dave Jones
dave.ddpnews:tf8fu6s...@corp.supernews.com...
H.C. Francis
I actually make money doing) the title my employer set for my position is
Senior "Designer". My employer, CDM, is a global "Consulting" -
Engineering - Operations - Construction firm.
Even though my position and my employer represent a negative connotation to
you (g) I must agree with you, quality workpersons, quality work, and
quality products are the most important thing in a service industry such as
ours and they are worth a premium price.
Marshall Caudle
computer? Or do you also have to be proficient iwth a T-square and
triangle? (grin)
Just kidding! I really feel for what Californians are going through
with the power situation! I remember very well ten days without any
power after hurricane Hugo. I'm afraid what we see in the news is
only a preview of things to come nationwide.
On Sat, 5 May 2001 07:12:30 -0700, "Dave Jones" <da...@ddptrinidad.com>
wrote:
Dave Jones
I certainly mean't no offense to you. I shouldn't generalize I guess, but
every "Designer" that I've ever met has been a pompuos a** that thinks that
their 4 years of school makes them all knowledgeable. I'm sure if we ever
met that my perception would change :)
dave.ddp
"H.C. Francis" <hfra...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:CYXI6.12581$Gx4.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Dave Jones
Actually I started on the boards in '69 doing aluminum extrusion die
drawings although I don't think that I'd enjoy it anymore. We were lucky (so
far) and didn't have any rolling blackouts here. If or when we do I've got
auto start autoswitchover generator power that runs through line
conditioners for all of the office equipment. We won't even blink if the
power goes off. I will however have to take out a bank loan to pay the
gasoline bill as our per gallon price is the highest in the US (2.17.9
currently)!
dave.ddp
"Marshall Caudle" <id...@vnet.net> wrote in message
news:d3p8ft44hojb1798a...@4ax.com...
H.C. Francis
the people who gave you that impression.
Marshall Caudle
And here I am complaining about $1.53/gallon - guess I should feel
lucky! At least ya'll have that good California weather year round!
Where is Trinadad, CA I spent some time in Los Angeles, CA fixing
things at the VA hospital after the big earthquake of '71.
We just had a 4 hour power failure this morning at the house and it
was a pain. Don't yet know the reason. Maybe the environmentalists
and the power companies and the governments will reach an
understanding before long. The country needs the power in today's
world, but it's the only country we have, so we have to take care of
it. I firmly believe it can be done, we just have to take the care to
see that it's done right. Sounds like you are prepared! Good Luck!
On Sat, 5 May 2001 17:12:57 -0700, "Dave Jones" <da...@ddptrinidad.com>
Dave Jones
> Where is Trinadad, CA I spent some time in Los Angeles, CA fixing
> things at the VA hospital after the big earthquake of '71.
well, I guess we're about as far away from LA as you can possibly be and
still be in CA :) North coast, 50 miles south of the OR border, 27 miles
north of Eureka. Heart of redwood tree country, and I had to clean up a pile
of bear dung from the middle of my driveway the other day ;)
dave.ddp
Dave Jones
mouth are two things that I've gotten very good at over the years :)news:jC3J6.14750$Gx4.1...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Darren J. Young
> $40 and $51 per hour. My problem is that I can't find anyone who is
> unemployed, who wants to work for a living, and has any clue what they are
> doing with Acad. No offense to the original poster, but 2 year degreed CAD
> technicians are generally the worst that I see. No common sense, minimal CAD
> skills, and most don't want to work, they just want a job.
I hear that. I need another someone part to full time person but am very
hesitant. I hired a second year student part time years ago to create a
library of mechanical fasteners and after going through 2 examples with
them, I let him be. 2 hours later when checking up, he didn't have a
thing done and this was with a list of sizes and handing him the
Machinery's Handbook and pointing him to the proper chart. The reply I
got was "You expect me to know this?". Well...yes.
At the same time, I had another second year student who when developing a
CAD map into line art for sandblasting, chose to move county names across
county borders.
I've not hired a student yet regardless of how simple the work is.
I reall don't know where I'm going to find someone with architectual
precast experiance.
--
Y-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Darren J. Young | Minnesota CADWorks, Inc. |
| dyo...@mcwi.com | P.O. Box 7293 |
| ftp://ftp.mcwi.com | St. Cloud, Minnesota 56302-7293 |
| http://www.mcwi.com | Phone 1-320-654-9053 |
| CAD/CAM/CNC - Drafting Design Customization Training Programming |
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Support the amendment to ban commercial unsolicited Email (SPAM) To
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Alan Horne
>> $40 and $51 per hour.
I think you are a bold-faced liar. NOBODY pays a draftsman that rate, even for
contract work by an experienced draftsman. In the southeast, a CAD draftsman
with no other qualifications can expect about $15 per hour as a full time
employee. Contract work can raise the rate to the $20-$25 per hour rate, but
only as a contract worker with no employee benefits (insurance, vacation time,
sick time, retirement, etc.).
Dave Jones
Boy, did that get my back up Alan. Please email me personally and I'll give
you the phone numbers of 7 people who are currently doing work for me at an
hourly rate of between $40 and $51 per hour.
Jerk!
dave.ddp
Owen Wengerd
> NOBODY pays a draftsman that rate...
I've done contract drafting for US$62.00 per hour (and that was 4 years
ago). :)
--
Owen Wengerd
President, ManuSoft ==> http://www.manusoft.com
VP Americas, CADLock, Inc. ==> http://www.cadlock.com
Darren J. Young
If you find a market niche that nobody else services, can perform high
quality and on-time work, that rate is easily met.
BTW, I've know Dave for a number of years and he's one of the most honest
guys you'll find around.
Dave Jones
dave.ddp
ps: btw, you hit the nail on the head re: "market niche"...
"Darren J. Young" <MnCAD...@Excite.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15607c9d9...@news.cloudnet.com...
Karen Robinson
I've made $30-$40 an hour as a contract drafter in NC.
Karen Robinson
Cliff W Estes
> I think you are a bold-faced liar. NOBODY pays a draftsman that rate, even for
> contract work by an experienced draftsman.
I always wonder what sort of nit-wit writes something like this, having
absolutely no knowledge of the topic. Seems like he oughta come outa
the holler occasionally and see what goes on in the rest of the world.
I know a number of designers who do contract drafting and design for
$40.00+ (some as high as $60.00).
I guess this kind of comment keeps things lively.
--
Cheers,
**********************************************************************
*** Cliff W. Estes ces...@basline.com ***
*** BaseLine Technology ph (425)882-7317 ***
*** 15834 NE 67th Place fax (425)882-7327 ***
*** Redmond, WA 98052 http://www.basline.com/ ***
**********************************************************************
Quality Marine Fairing, Modeling and Rendering
http://www.basline.com/imggal.shtm
Dave Jones
and sometimes you even get $51 per hour from a bold faced liar :)
dave.ddp
"Cliff W Estes" <ces...@basline.com> wrote in message
news:3AF9CDDB...@basline.com...
Alan Horne
a partner in an architectural firm. I am well aware of the customary rates for
design and drafting in the A/E/C community. I also know the maximum rates and
overhead allowed by government agencies for those type positions for our
government design contracts with the Army Corps of Enginerrs and Naval
Facilities Engineering Command.
Apparently you can hide an exhorbitantly high drafting rate behind a commercial
product and get away with it. Most of the shop drawings I have checked lately
are absolute trash and are barely readable. Also, the entry level draftsmen I
have employed lately have little in common with the ones from 20 years ago.
Most have no clue how to design and draft with proper lineweight and emphasis.
I think the CAD method of instantly copying details instead of tracing details,
developing a feel for lineweight use and hand lettering has really spoiled the
new generation.
Marshall Caudle
wrote:
>Apparently you can hide an exhorbitantly high drafting rate behind a commercial
>product and get away with it. Most of the shop drawings I have checked lately
>are absolute trash and are barely readable.
When I get trashy shop drawings, I reject the product - that gets
their attention.
> Also, the entry level draftsmen I
>have employed lately have little in common with the ones from 20 years ago.
>Most have no clue how to design and draft with proper lineweight and emphasis.
>I think the CAD method of instantly copying details instead of tracing details,
>developing a feel for lineweight use and hand lettering has really spoiled the
>new generation.
My sentiments exactly.
I see so many drawings today done on CAD that are just plain bland -
no lineweights, all text the same. To those of us who have been in
the business since the days of hand drawings - that is the real
tragedy of CAD, the lack of personalization. I once had to research
drawings for a building done around the year 1895 by the New York
office of McKim, Mead and White. If you don't know who they were,
search some architectural books. Stanford White was shot in a lovers
triangle - interesting stories about him. I found the original
drawings which were done in ink on linen - they were works of art, not
merely construciton documents. Back then original drawings were blood
sweat and tears - now with CAD, original drawings have no meaning. If
it gets torn, simply print another one. That is both the tragedy and
the benefit of CAD. One can have both personalization and CAD, but it
takes effort and understanding and very few entering the field nowdays
are willing to put forth that effort.
Herman Mayfarth
> When I get trashy shop drawings, I reject the product
>
receive.
As I write this, I am looking at a set of designs for a housing facility on a
U.S. Navy installation. The drawings which I have received (and which are
themselves 3 months late) are unreadable, due to the fact they are reduced sets
(11x17). There is not a piece of text >1/16", and some is smaller. As well, the
pen weight used for text was probably correct for a full sized drawing, so the
text is illegible. The drawings were apparently photocopied from original
plots, so most of the sheet numbers are cut off. It is only possible to
decipher some sheet numbers because of the U.S. government standard of
back-referencing details (a good practice, but not universally followed in
private industry).
I consider it a personal and professional insult to ask anyone to work from
such a piece of trash (I won't even get into the "quality," or lack of, the
design drawings themselves, which leaves much to be desired, and even more to
be rectified).
Every time I receive a piece of garbage like this, I suppress the urge to
submit a set of steel fabrication drawings in the same format as the designs
were presented (i.e., 1/2 size drawings, nothing legible, no text > 1/16"). In
this case, I am unable even to quote the job to my customer (structural steel
fabricator), pending receipt of design drawings which are at least readable.
Observation: The worst drawings seem to come from design firms who are working
for the U.S. government. Sad waste of our tax dollars.
I will put my steel fab drawings up against anyone else's (and if you can show
me how to make them better, I will gladly pay attention). As a matter of
professional courtesy, I believe I have a reasonable expectation of receiving
work which is executed with the same level of care from the design
professionals involved. Lately, this does not seem to be the case.
If you would like to have a look at my work product, a few examples are posted
in PDF format in the projects section of my website:
http://www.tktn.com/projects/projects.htm
> they were works of art, not
> merely construciton documents.
>
Are you familiar with the book, "A Canticle for Leibowitz," by Walter M.
Miller, Jr.?
Dave Jones
news:20010509233729...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> Actually, I am a registered architect in 8 states with 24 years
experience and
> a partner in an architectural firm. I am well aware of the customary
rates for
> design and drafting in the A/E/C community. I also know the maximum rates
and
> overhead allowed by government agencies for those type positions for our
> government design contracts with the Army Corps of Enginerrs and Naval
> Facilities Engineering Command.
so, this excuses you from insulting me?
>
> Apparently you can hide an exhorbitantly high drafting rate behind a
commercial
> product and get away with it. Most of the shop drawings I have checked
lately
> are absolute trash and are barely readable. Also, the entry level
draftsmen I
> have employed lately have little in common with the ones from 20 years
ago.
> Most have no clue how to design and draft with proper lineweight and
emphasis.
> I think the CAD method of instantly copying details instead of tracing
details,
> developing a feel for lineweight use and hand lettering has really
spoiled the
> new generation.
and so, you insult me again. Our rates are not "exorbitantly high" and are
standard for our industry for the work that we do. You obviously don't know
as much as you think you do! Oh, and I started on the boards in '68, when
did you start?
dave.ddp
ps: please use your spell checker Mr. Registered Architect in 24 States!
pss: I also find it interesting that a big time Architect like yourself uses
AOL...geez, get a clue
sedge
<snip>
> and so, you insult me again. Our rates are not "exorbitantly high" and are
> standard for our industry for the work that we do. You obviously don't know
> as much as you think you do! Oh, and I started on the boards in '68, when
> did you start?
>
> dave.ddp
> ps: please use your spell checker Mr. Registered Architect in 24 States!
> pss: I also find it interesting that a big time Architect like yourself uses
> AOL...geez, get a clue
Dave!
He said 8 states and 24 years! :)
Think New Orleans ....
--
Saara
-one of the overpaid drafters that makes for DDP's "exorbitantly high"
rates
Alan Horne
pomposity. No wonder the price of things is going through the roof if you are
paying draftsmen $140K on an annual basis. I started working on the boards in
1971 when I graduated from high school, entered architecture school, and worked
on the side. I use aol for my personal e-mail. Remind me who you work for
again so I can check carefully for the next time some overpriced window shop
drawings cross my desk.
Herman Mayfarth
As a point of comparison, one of 2 structural engineers here in Corona
(Southern CA) bills "structural draftsman" at $50.00 and "word processing" at
$35.00.
That is for a "draftsman" working under the direct supervision of a licensed
structural engineer to produce _design_ drawings.
Clearly, in your business, or mine, (actual fabrication drawings, in both
cases) certain specialized industry knowledge is required, which puts the level
of skill, and hence reasonable compensation, considerably above a mere
"draftsman." 'Nuff said.
By the way, I have the same "happy" problem as you at this time: namely, I
could expand my business threefold, given availability of competent
professionals to do the job, the financial strength to expand the company, and
absolutely reliable quality control over the work of others (whether contract
or employee).
We are both producers of "original content." That has been established by court
precedent for the structural steel detailing industry, and I am sure it applies
to your business as well.
Just my $0.02
hm
Owner, Tekton Construction Services
Structural Steel Detailers since 1996
(I am also personally a licensed General Building Contractor in the State of
California, since 1980, and hold a Bachelor of Science degree in a technical
field, with significant credits towards a Master of Science in Structural
Engineering, so I believe I am entitled to call myself a "professional," as you
must be also, although I believe that term is much abused these days).
Dave Jones
bye,
dave.ddp
Drafting & Design Plus
Trinidad, CA
Best Window Wall and Curtain Wall Drawings You've Ever Seen!
"Alan Horne" <amh...@aol.com-no-spam> wrote in message
news:20010510140030...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
Dave Jones
dave.ddp
"sedge" <se...@sedge.net> wrote in message
news:3AFAD61A...@sedge.net...
Dave Jones
dave.ddp
"Herman Mayfarth" <no_...@thisaddress.com> wrote in message
news:VA.0000000...@thisaddress.com...
Marshall Caudle
rate should be the least of anyone's worries. Paying for work by the
hour is a very inefficient way to get things done. There is no
incentive to be efficient and productive. If there is a set amout of
work to be done, I am most reluctant to price it by the hour. If I
hire a contract draftsman and give him a task to do for an agreed upon
fee, I could care less if he makes $5/hour or $200/hr. I much prefer
to give a flat fee - sometimes I make $300/hr and other times as
little as $15/hr.
I once did some contract work for another architect for a fee of
$2000. He was quite content with that becasue he had already figured
it would take his office somewhere between 40 and 60 man-hours to
complete the task, but if I had told him up front that I wanted
$120/hr he would have never agreed. The fact that I completed the
project in 16 man-hours was a fact that I never told him. Why should
I be penalized for being more efficient at what I do than someone
else? I put my time in learning how to be efficient at what I do and
no one paid me for that.
If more architect's were interested in being architects instead of
personnel managers, they would learn to efficiently use these
marvelous machines and this wonderful software themselves - then they
would find that they could get by without at least two thirds of their
office staff. Thank goodness most of them are too lazy to put the
"time in" since that makes for work available for people like Dave and
myself. I once had an office with three draftsman and now, thanks to
the computers and the software. I personally produce more working
drawings and contract documents by myself than I did with a staff of
three.
On 10 May 2001 18:00:30 GMT, amh...@aol.com-no-spam (Alan Horne)
wrote:
>Actually, you insult me with your abnormally high rates and your absolute
David Hansen
I've made it in upstate NY, on a _contract_ job.
I was putting in a _lot_ of hours, and when it was done, I decided I didn't
need the money at the expense of my health.
--
-Dave /;^{D>
(Warning: Reply-to address has been changed - Death To Spam!)
PC Help needs Our HELP!! Lockdown 2000 scam^H^H^H^H Law Suit
http://www.pchelpers.org/ http://www.pc-help.org
"Alan Horne" <amh...@aol.com-no-spam> wrote in message
news:20010506175114...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
Dave Jones
I don't pay my Contractors by the hour for work for the most part. Most of
us work on a per sheet basis, so your point is valid for us also. The
original poster asked what independent contractors should be paid per hour
or per year. I responded giving our standard hourly rate, which is used for
work that cannot be billed per sheet, like project drawing revisions,
presentation drawings for meetings, system design, etc. I gave this
information just for the sake of, well, information. My point was supposed
to be, if you are going to be an independent contractor, get your rate up
where it should be to cover the multitude of unknown expenses that you will
run into. No matter where you live or work, you cannot survive charging $15
to $25 per hour when you have to pay for AutoCAD, all of the other business
software that you need, computers to run it, printers to output it, large
and small format copy machines, phone bills, shipping costs, license fees,
business and personal insurances, increased taxes, outside accounting
services, being able to take a vacation every once in a while, and there's
lots and lots more, as you well know. Given these "facts" I don't believe
that $40 to $51 per hour base rate is out of the question, especially if you
do quality work. This subject has been hacked to death in this newsgroup
many times in the 5 or 6 years that I've been participating so,
enough of this...off on vacation
dave.ddp
"Marshall Caudle" <id...@vnet.net> wrote in message
news:16qlftg373detqair...@4ax.com...
Mike Warner
> rate should be the least of anyone's worries. Paying for work by the
> hour is a very inefficient way to get things done. There is no
> incentive to be efficient and productive.
At last, a sensible point in this whole silly debate.
Ye gods, to compare hourly rates in Florida to those in New York to those in
the South East of England to those
in the West Midlands of England to those in New Zealand to those on Venus -
what's the point?
> If I hire a contract draftsman and give him a task to do for an agreed
upon
> fee, I could care less if he makes $5/hour or $200/hr.
Exactly.
When I get someone to fix my roof - I get competetive prices and, assuming
I've done some investigative work
on the contractor's competence, I hire the one with the best price. (Terms,
conditions etc etc etc)
I don't care what his hourly rate is. What's the better deal, the $5.00/ hr
person who hasn't a clue or the $150.00/hr
pro who gets the job done.
>I much prefer to give a flat fee - sometimes I make $300/hr and other
times as little as $15/hr.
Ain't that the truth - them's the breaks. Spoken like a real contractor.
> I once did some contract work for another architect for a fee of
> $2000. He was quite content with that becasue he had already figured
> it would take his office somewhere between 40 and 60 man-hours to
> complete the task, but if I had told him up front that I wanted
> $120/hr he would have never agreed. The fact that I completed the
> project in 16 man-hours was a fact that I never told him.
Don't you just love those ones?
I shouldn't be saying this on this forum, but even better is when they
cancel the job - we don't need the
drawings, because the job's been cancelled by Chrysler, but send us your
bill. I mean, even the most honest amongst us
would be wringing our hands with glee.
As a sidebar, on the subject o Daimler Chrysler, they make Microsoft and
Autodesk look like honest, upstanding and caring
corporate citizens
> Why should I be penalized for being more efficient at what I do than
someone
> else? I put my time into learning how to be efficient at what I do and
> no one paid me for that.
Damn right Marshall.
> If more architect's were interested in being architects instead of
> personnel managers, they would learn to efficiently use these
> marvelous machines and this wonderful software themselves - then they
> would find that they could get by without at least two thirds of their
> office staff.
Substitute the title "Architect" with "Automotive Process Engineer" and
we're on the same wave length.
Mike Warner.
PS.
I think it was you, Marshall, that commented on the general lack of
professionalism in the preparation of drawings
these days. Without wishing to sound like an old, bitter and twist, old
fart - your words are so true.