AMD shafting DIY market again.

[skybuck2000]

First they shaft the DIY market with threadripper.

And now they do it again with:

Ryzen 9 5900 and Ryzen 7 5800

Two none-x versions which have a 40% power consumption saving with almost same performance.

Especially now with rising energy prices, and the fact that 100+ TDP for the x versions is way too high this could be a major deal.

But yet again not available to DIY market. Do It Yourself.

I can't even find a decent review of 5900 vs 5900X.

AMD is making itself very unattractive to DIY market, except the general idiot that purchases overheating garbage.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

[MitchAlsup]

The general PC market (manufactures build systems for users) consume 98%+ of product.
The server market consumes 1.2%± of product.
DIYers consume 0.1% of product.

If you ran a business that was exceedingly cost sensitive which markets would you service ?

[skybuck2000]

How the hell does 5900 run hotter than 5900x ?

65 watts vs 105 watts:

Is this a specification typo ? Or is there more to it ? Maybe in turbo boost mode ?:

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-9-5900x

oem-version:

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-9-5900

Very strange !

Bye,
Skybuck.

[skybuck2000]

5900x:
Max. Operating Temperature (Tjmax) 90°C

5900-oem:
Max. Operating Temperature (Tjmax) 95°C

Strange !

Bye,
Skybuck.

[skybuck2000]

Are you saying it's problematic for them to reserve 0.1% of their products for DIY market ? :P*

I doubt your numbers though, can you prove it ?

Bye,
Skybuck.

[MitchAlsup]

It is more of a "why bother" than a problem.

>
> I doubt your numbers though, can you prove it ?
<

I only worked in semiconductor field from 1983 to 2017. We used to have a saying in the design team:
"The server market is an afternoon in the FAB." afternoon = 6 hours of 1 day per year. The DIY market
is not much more than a rounding error in any time period you wish to look.
>
> Bye,
> Skybuck.

[Anton Ertl]

skybuck2000 <skybu...@hotmail.com> writes:
>First they shaft the DIY market with threadripper.
>
>And now they do it again with:
>
>Ryzen 9 5900 and Ryzen 7 5800
>
>Two none-x versions which have a 40% power consumption saving with almost same performance.
>
>Especially now with rising energy prices, and the fact that 100+ TDP for the x versions is way too high this could be a major deal.

You can DIY by buying 5900X/5800X and using a mainboard that supports
setting a power limit (I have seen that on an MSI board; it may hide
in the overclocking section on other boards, I have not looked into
that), and set it to 65W. Voila, instant 5900/5800.

>But yet again not available to DIY market. Do It Yourself.
>
>I can't even find a decent review of 5900 vs 5900X.

Looks like the market the reviewers are targeting is not particularly
interested in the 5900; of course, lack of availability also makes it
unattractive for reviewing.

In any case, my impression (from reviews when the Ryzen 5000 came out)
is that the perf/W of the Ryzen 5000 series is hardly better than for
the Ryzen 3000 series, so if you power-limit the CPU, you are going to
run into the power limit sooner and then see performance similar to
the corresponding Ryzen 3000.

>AMD is making itself very unattractive to DIY market, except the general idiot that purchases overheating garbage.

Well, maybe the "general idiot" is the majority of the market, and the
rest is so little that AMD leaves the DIY method discussed above for
it. I don't know AMD's market research, but looking at the sales
number of 8-core CPUs at mindfactory.de (I think most people who buy
there are DIY customers), it seems that there is quite a lot of
interest from DIY customers in 65W TDP CPUs; or maybe the prices of
the 3700X were just more attractive.

#sold Ryzen TDP
80470 3700X 65W
26820 3800X 105W
? 3800XT 105W
40890 5800X 105W

The 3800XT is currently not listed there (probably out of stock with
no pending delivery), so I have no numbers for that.

- anton
--
'Anyone trying for "industrial quality" ISA should avoid undefined behavior.'
Mitch Alsup, <c17fcd89-f024-40e7...@googlegroups.com>

[skybuck2000]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 11:14:22 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:
> skybuck2000 <skybu...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >First they shaft the DIY market with threadripper.
> >
> >And now they do it again with:
> >
> >Ryzen 9 5900 and Ryzen 7 5800
> >
> >Two none-x versions which have a 40% power consumption saving with almost same performance.
> >
> >Especially now with rising energy prices, and the fact that 100+ TDP for the x versions is way too high this could be a major deal.
> You can DIY by buying 5900X/5800X and using a mainboard that supports
> setting a power limit (I have seen that on an MSI board; it may hide
> in the overclocking section on other boards, I have not looked into
> that), and set it to 65W. Voila, instant 5900/5800.

Not sure if that will be the same, AMD claims 5900/5800 is specially optimized.

Also the temptation is too high to simply run that at 105 TDP, I need something to limit it for me ! LOL.

I also need garantueed heat output and such, can't do such a gamble.

Besides even 5900 seems to hot, I may have to look elsewhere.

Today I booted my old DreamPC from 2006 and boy is it old, might not be worth buying new hardware for it, most software probably needs updating, maybe better for me to look towards a new system but that is still 6 to 7 months away till PCI 5.0, DDR 5.0 and USB 4.0 and Ryzen 7000 comes out from AMD.

Thus I was thinking of upgrading my DreamPC2006 with some new motherboard, new processor and new ram sticks, to replace smelly socket 939 nforce4 motherboard/chipset/flawed condensators/capacitators, I am not even sure if it's the capacitators on the motherboard that are smelly but this system could use an upgrade anyway.

What scares me off from buying anything relatively brand new is lack of compatibility with windows 7 and also having to do a bios upgrade even if it's claimed to be "easy".

Plus I don't think Windows 7 will make me happy, it's too old, I still love it on this laptop, but for a true PC, windows 11 is where heaven is it. I am starting to like Windows 11 too much, there are still some quickers etc, but it does have a feedback form, so maybe I can get Microsoft to do some tiny little improvements though some things do annoy me like the little icons on the start bar I get confused many times. In this sense windows 7 may have been better cause it shows application names.

Further annoyances with windows 11 is in windows 7 it was easier to create many copies of say file explorer or other apps, this is again difficult with taskbar in windows 11.

I am not sure if there are configurable options and if not if Microsoft will listen and maybe do something about it, maybe I will get used to it, maybe not.

An additional problem is software is slowly transitioning towards windows 11. Soon it may not work anymore on windows 7, perhaps also cause of .net frameworks and such.

And DreamPC2006 has an non-platform-upgrade of windows 7. I haven't used the DreamPC in a while anymore, slowly starting to forget what was on it lol... and at least this laptop has a nice wide screen monitor and it's nice and crispy. Plus DreamPC power button but shitty, plus maybe power supply has to much wear and tear, it may be time to put it to rest ! LOL. Though it will be hard to replace a super strong case like this, it's the main thing holding me back. I don't like any of the new cases on the market today, almost none, maybe there is one... and then there was the asus motherboard fuck-up where one chip was placed wrongly up-side down, that stuff is just scary as hell !

> >But yet again not available to DIY market. Do It Yourself.
> >
> >I can't even find a decent review of 5900 vs 5900X.
> Looks like the market the reviewers are targeting is not particularly
> interested in the 5900; of course, lack of availability also makes it
> unattractive for reviewing.

Could it be golden samples/special binning ?

>
> In any case, my impression (from reviews when the Ryzen 5000 came out)
> is that the perf/W of the Ryzen 5000 series is hardly better than for
> the Ryzen 3000 series, so if you power-limit the CPU, you are going to
> run into the power limit sooner and then see performance similar to
> the corresponding Ryzen 3000.
> >AMD is making itself very unattractive to DIY market, except the general idiot that purchases overheating garbage.
> Well, maybe the "general idiot" is the majority of the market, and the
> rest is so little that AMD leaves the DIY method discussed above for
> it. I don't know AMD's market research, but looking at the sales
> number of 8-core CPUs at mindfactory.de (I think most people who buy
> there are DIY customers), it seems that there is quite a lot of
> interest from DIY customers in 65W TDP CPUs; or maybe the prices of
> the 3700X were just more attractive.
>
> #sold Ryzen TDP
> 80470 3700X 65W
> 26820 3800X 105W
> ? 3800XT 105W
> 40890 5800X 105W

https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/AMD-Ryzen-5-3600-6x-3-60GHz-So-AM4-BOX_1313643.html

Ryzen 5 3600 also 65W sold 128.000 times if you believe there numbers ! =D

Apperently germans are a special breed of people which are not complete idiots ! LOL =D

> The 3800XT is currently not listed there (probably out of stock with
> no pending delivery), so I have no numbers for that.

Thanks for then numbers, made my day a bit more happy ! ;) =D

This laptop has 2 cores for a total of 4 threads and I already consider it pretty powerfull.

So anything listed above while be super powerfull ! =D If software is configured smartly ! =D

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

[skybuck2000]

Well you make it seem like it's a small market but it's not for two reasons also by admission of CEO of AMD itself:

1. Profit margins are higher at DIY.

2. Using your own numbers and some of mine.

World Wide Sails of PC/Systems will be approx 1.000.000.000 over the course of a few years or so.

Using your 0.1 procent example:

1.000.000.000 x 0.001 = 1.000.000

Still a million PCs.

PCs which include the ones used by Linus Torvalds and others of Linux which drives a lot of computer systems/servers ! =D

And what Microsoft and Google uses/and/or Apple remains to be seen.

And then there is the new bitcoin mining hype, do you buy those at DELL ? HAHA.

Bye,
Skybuck.

[Anton Ertl]

skybuck2000 <skybu...@hotmail.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 11:14:22 AM UTC+1, Anton Ertl wrote:

>> You can DIY by buying 5900X/5800X and using a mainboard that supports=20
>> setting a power limit (I have seen that on an MSI board; it may hide=20
>> in the overclocking section on other boards, I have not looked into=20

>> that), and set it to 65W. Voila, instant 5900/5800.
>

>Not sure if that will be the same, AMD claims 5900/5800 is specially optimi=
>zed.

Where do they claim this?

These are CPUs for OEMs, to put them into cheap systems that don't
have the cooling (and maybe not the power supply) for a 105W TDP CPU.
Why should AMD expend extra effort on binning for that? It's not as
if they get paid extra by the OEMs for that.

>Also the temptation is too high to simply run that at 105 TDP, I need somet=

>hing to limit it for me ! LOL.

Either you prefer running it at up to 88W ("65W TDP") or you prefer
running it at up to 142W ("105W TDP"). If it's the latter, why would
you buy a non-X 5900?

>I also need garantueed heat output and such, can't do such a gamble.
>
>Besides even 5900 seems to hot, I may have to look elsewhere.

How do you know? If you feed it 88W, it produces 88W of heat. You
can also set the power or temperature limit lower, and it will run
cooler. Take a look at temperature limit results on our 3900X machine
<https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/ryzen-server.html>.