Replacing EMC Clariion disks with Best Buy disks
Boll Weevil
to pull out the drives out of the drive brackets and replace them with 500 GB or
750 GB drives I buy from ...say Frys or Best Buy. Is there a special firmware
on the EMC drives that may prevent me from doing this or any other technical
reason? TIA.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
So far I know, it won't be possible, since CLARiiON drives are factory
formatted to 520 bytes per sector...
Other thing you should check is HDD compatibility list for the FLARE OS
you're CX400 is running...
--
U saboru se za svaku Novu Godinu zagadjen prozorcicu diru.
By runf
Damir Lukic, calypso@_MAKNIOVO_fly.srk.fer.hr
http://inovator.blog.hr
http://calypso-innovations.blogspot.com/
Boll Weevil
>Boll Weevil <washe...@maytag.com> kenjka:
>> I have a Clariion CX400 being used in a lab with 250 GB sata drives and I want
>> to pull out the drives out of the drive brackets and replace them with 500 GB or
>> 750 GB drives I buy from ...say Frys or Best Buy. Is there a special firmware
>> on the EMC drives that may prevent me from doing this or any other technical
>> reason? TIA.
>
>So far I know, it won't be possible, since CLARiiON drives are factory
>formatted to 520 bytes per sector...
>
>Other thing you should check is HDD compatibility list for the FLARE OS
>you're CX400 is running...
Before we completely throw in the towel, check this out:
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Storage/Storage_Technology/Q_23750574.html
mrvelous1
> On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 07:52:28 +0000 (UTC), caly...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid wrote:
> >Boll Weevil <washerdr...@maytag.com> kenjka:
> >> I have a Clariion CX400 being used in a lab with 250 GB sata drives and I want
> >> to pull out the drives out of the drive brackets and replace them with 500 GB or
> >> 750 GB drives I buy from ...say Frys or Best Buy. Is there a special firmware
> >> on the EMC drives that may prevent me from doing this or any other technical
> >> reason? TIA.
>
> >So far I know, it won't be possible, since CLARiiON drives are factory
> >formatted to 520 bytes per sector...
>
> >Other thing you should check is HDD compatibility list for the FLARE OS
> >you're CX400 is running...
>
> Before we completely throw in the towel, check this out:
>
It is a very interesting topic. I personally manage a Clariion CX3
and used to manage a CX600 and am interested in what you find out.
However, I have steadfastly REFUSED to follow any links to that damned
"experts-exchange" website and PAY for answers. I'll just wait to see
what you guys come up with :)
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> http://www.experts-exchange.com/Storage/Storage_Technology/Q_23750574.html
There are some utilities like SCSITool which can format the SCSI-based drive
to specific sector size, but what happens with EMC firmware information
then?...
--
Sprajta izdrkava pijan limunog gladija za pet minuta ?
Boll Weevil
>
>There are some utilities like SCSITool which can format the SCSI-based drive
>to specific sector size, but what happens with EMC firmware information
>then?...
I think that is the big question at hand. I personal opinion is that there is
no special sauce in the CX HD as widely publicized other than the 520 bps. EMC
says they have a special voodoo on the drive and that's why they charge 1000%
more for what you and I can buy it at Frys or Best Buy. I've searched but no
body has done it yet. On EMC's support forums all I see is .... "you can't do
that" and "it's not supported" and other similar bull^%%$. We need to get to
the bottom of this issue.
Something I found:
How to change the block size of a hard drive using Linux and the scu utility
http://www.doki-doki.net/~lamune/computers/blocksize/index.html
mrvelous1
I spoke to a vendor that I buy hard drives and HBA's from (they sell
quite a bit more than that). He says this particular CX is going EOL
soon, if not already, and he suggested that you get all of your
firmware up to date then go with 3rd party maintenance as a 3rd party
company will not give you crap about not putting EMC qualified drives
in the box to begin with. He is not 100% sure about the EMC firmware
voodoo, but says it is quite possible. He also sells used (waranteed)
EMC drives for the array at a ridiculous discount compared to what EMC
would have you pay. I will give you his contact information offline
if you want it. They are a nationwide VAR of servers and storage. If
nothing else you could speak with him or his technical staff to pursue
the EMC microcode issue.
I am pretty sure that if you couldn't get a drive (that you bought
from him) to work in that array, that he would take the drive back.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> >There are some utilities like SCSITool which can format the SCSI-based drive
> >to specific sector size, but what happens with EMC firmware information
> >then?...
> I think that is the big question at hand. I personal opinion is that there is
> no special sauce in the CX HD as widely publicized other than the 520 bps. EMC
> says they have a special voodoo on the drive and that's why they charge 1000%
> more for what you and I can buy it at Frys or Best Buy. I've searched but no
> body has done it yet. On EMC's support forums all I see is .... "you can't do
> that" and "it's not supported" and other similar bull^%%$. We need to get to
> the bottom of this issue.
Drives have write cache disabled (and that must be that way, no
exceptions)... 520bps is normal low-level format for those drives (512bytes
data + 8bytes ECC code)... Special firmware is used also, so you can't put
normal drive in CLARiiON and expect it to work...
Well, I've been in EMC's factory in Cork (Ireland), and seen the
manufacturing process for all of their storage equipmet (Symmetrix,
CLARiiON, Celerra, Centera, etc)... Let's say that the price for these
drives is not very much for a customer who wants storage solution that works
and doesn't die when it's most important...
And, btw., do you really think that customers buy storage equipment at list
prices? :DDD They get really good discounts...
BTW., drives are throughly tested before shipped... 24hr in cold chamber,
24hr in hot chamber, earthquake simulators, etc... Online all the time... If
they die during the testing, they die and go to trashcan...
--
U Importanne galeriji se navecer ruzan psihologog njusija.
Boll Weevil
>
>I spoke to a vendor that I buy hard drives and HBA's from (they sell
>quite a bit more than that). He says this particular CX is going EOL
>soon, if not already, and he suggested that you get all of your
>firmware up to date then go with 3rd party maintenance as a 3rd party
>company will not give you crap about not putting EMC qualified drives
>in the box to begin with. He is not 100% sure about the EMC firmware
>voodoo, but says it is quite possible. He also sells used (waranteed)
>EMC drives for the array at a ridiculous discount compared to what EMC
>would have you pay. I will give you his contact information offline
>if you want it. They are a nationwide VAR of servers and storage. If
>nothing else you could speak with him or his technical staff to pursue
>the EMC microcode issue.
>
>I am pretty sure that if you couldn't get a drive (that you bought
>from him) to work in that array, that he would take the drive back.
Thanx for the offer. I too know of a local reconditioned reseller. They too
want 350-500 dollars for a 500 gig drive. My cx400 has no maintenance and hence
a lab array. Several of our production CX4 are about to run out of maintenance
and will be decomm'd and will take over the duties of the cx400 in about 9
months. In the mean time, I am just curious as to this particular topic at hand
and want to investigate to see if it can be done.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> a lab array. Several of our production CX4 are about to run out of maintenance
> and will be decomm'd and will take over the duties of the cx400 in about 9
> months. In the mean time, I am just curious as to this particular topic at hand
> and want to investigate to see if it can be done.
Excuse me, but CX4 has a default 36 months support, it's a newest EMC's
storage product, and it's been in production since 2009... So, there is no
way that it'll go out of maintenance in 9 mth...
If you're talking about CX400, then it's possible...
Why don't you do a buy-in with EMC? It's recession time, you could get
pretty good discounts on buying new CX4 with CX400 buy-in or some other
financing option from EMC?
--
Fatao podmazuje ispod mosta lijep Zidovo podmazuje uvijek ?
mrvelous1
> Boll Weevil <washerdr...@maytag.com> kenjka:
As mentioned above, there is typically a 3 year maintenance/warranty
included with a purchase of a new device from EMC. And, you do have
quite a bit of leverage now to use it as a trade-in/trade-up as well.
Since it's already "paid for", if it is in good condition and you
don't want to lose it, there are also 3rd party maintenance companies
that are giving you better coverage on Clariion for less than EMC
charges. About 80% less. It's quite staggering what we're actually
paying for storage maintenance from the OEM's. When you compare 3rd
party maintenance vs. OEM you truly have to wonder how you let your
OEM screw you for so long.
Boll Weevil
� � � � � � � � � � � � � � �
>
>As mentioned above, there is typically a 3 year maintenance/warranty
>included with a purchase of a new device from EMC. And, you do have
>quite a bit of leverage now to use it as a trade-in/trade-up as well.
>Since it's already "paid for", if it is in good condition and you
>don't want to lose it, there are also 3rd party maintenance companies
>that are giving you better coverage on Clariion for less than EMC
>charges. About 80% less. It's quite staggering what we're actually
>paying for storage maintenance from the OEM's. When you compare 3rd
>party maintenance vs. OEM you truly have to wonder how you let your
>OEM screw you for so long.
Made a mistake.. its a CX700.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> >As mentioned above, there is typically a 3 year maintenance/warranty
> >included with a purchase of a new device from EMC. And, you do have
> >quite a bit of leverage now to use it as a trade-in/trade-up as well.
> >Since it's already "paid for", if it is in good condition and you
> >don't want to lose it, there are also 3rd party maintenance companies
> >that are giving you better coverage on Clariion for less than EMC
> >charges. About 80% less. It's quite staggering what we're actually
> >paying for storage maintenance from the OEM's. When you compare 3rd
> >party maintenance vs. OEM you truly have to wonder how you let your
> >OEM screw you for so long.
> Made a mistake.. its a CX700.
That's the biggest CX from that age... Hmmmm, it's quite a good machine...
You could somehow make a trade-in for a CX4-240 or CX4-480 and have a good
price (because of the crisis and recession)...
Other option is to go to Hitachi AMS2000 series which uses SAS drives, and
costs almost half of the same-range EMC CLARiiON... And they will surely
give you quite a discount if replacing this CX700...
--
Na sudoperu se satima nepismen Madjaru karu. By runf
Cydrome Leader
> On Sep 4, 4:47?pm, Boll Weevil <washerdr...@maytag.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 07:52:28 +0000 (UTC), caly...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid wrote:
>> >Boll Weevil <washerdr...@maytag.com> kenjka:
>> >> I have a Clariion CX400 being used in a lab with 250 GB sata drives and I want
>> >> to pull out the drives out of the drive brackets and replace them with 500 GB or
>> >> on the EMC drives that may prevent me from doing this or any other technical
>>
>> >So far I know, it won't be possible, since CLARiiON drives are factory
>> >formatted to 520 bytes per sector...
>>
>> >Other thing you should check is HDD compatibility list for the FLARE OS
>> >you're CX400 is running...
>>
>> Before we completely throw in the towel, check this out:
>>
>> http://www.experts-exchange.com/Storage/Storage_Technology/Q_23750574...
>
> It is a very interesting topic. I personally manage a Clariion CX3
> and used to manage a CX600 and am interested in what you find out.
> However, I have steadfastly REFUSED to follow any links to that damned
> "experts-exchange" website and PAY for answers. I'll just wait to see
> what you guys come up with :)
that site is fucking obnoxious.
Cydrome Leader
> Boll Weevil <washe...@maytag.com> kenjka:
>> >As mentioned above, there is typically a 3 year maintenance/warranty
>> >included with a purchase of a new device from EMC. And, you do have
>> >quite a bit of leverage now to use it as a trade-in/trade-up as well.
>> >Since it's already "paid for", if it is in good condition and you
>> >don't want to lose it, there are also 3rd party maintenance companies
>> >that are giving you better coverage on Clariion for less than EMC
>> >charges. About 80% less. It's quite staggering what we're actually
>> >paying for storage maintenance from the OEM's. When you compare 3rd
>> >party maintenance vs. OEM you truly have to wonder how you let your
>> >OEM screw you for so long.
>
>> Made a mistake.. its a CX700.
>
> That's the biggest CX from that age... Hmmmm, it's quite a good machine...
> You could somehow make a trade-in for a CX4-240 or CX4-480 and have a good
> price (because of the crisis and recession)...
>
> Other option is to go to Hitachi AMS2000 series which uses SAS drives, and
> costs almost half of the same-range EMC CLARiiON... And they will surely
> give you quite a discount if replacing this CX700...
Do you have any first hand reports on the AMS2000?
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> > That's the biggest CX from that age... Hmmmm, it's quite a good machine...
> > You could somehow make a trade-in for a CX4-240 or CX4-480 and have a good
> > price (because of the crisis and recession)...
> >
> > Other option is to go to Hitachi AMS2000 series which uses SAS drives, and
> > costs almost half of the same-range EMC CLARiiON... And they will surely
> > give you quite a discount if replacing this CX700...
> Do you have any first hand reports on the AMS2000?
Yup, we sell it too...
--
Pod tusem se satima bradat medou podjebavu. By runf
Cydrome Leader
> Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> kenjka:
>> > That's the biggest CX from that age... Hmmmm, it's quite a good machine...
>> > You could somehow make a trade-in for a CX4-240 or CX4-480 and have a good
>> > price (because of the crisis and recession)...
>> >
>> > Other option is to go to Hitachi AMS2000 series which uses SAS drives, and
>> > costs almost half of the same-range EMC CLARiiON... And they will surely
>> > give you quite a discount if replacing this CX700...
>
>> Do you have any first hand reports on the AMS2000?
>
> Yup, we sell it too...
So what's the good and bad of them vs. the ams1000, aside from the change
in disk trays?
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> >> > Other option is to go to Hitachi AMS2000 series which uses SAS drives, and
> >> > costs almost half of the same-range EMC CLARiiON... And they will surely
> >> > give you quite a discount if replacing this CX700...
> >
> >> Do you have any first hand reports on the AMS2000?
> >
> > Yup, we sell it too...
> So what's the good and bad of them vs. the ams1000, aside from the change
> in disk trays?
Absolutely no idea... I'm in EMC team, not in Hitachi... All that I know is
that Hitachi guys (as well as my EMC team) are considering Hitachi AMS
series as a real problem when trying to sell EMC... Hitachi's more reliable
and almost twice cheaper, but there are other problems with Hitachi which
are more people-related than technology-related... :)
Anyway, AMS is a great machine that has much better performance than any
other mid-range storage... Look for SPC-1 benchmarks for performance
benchmarks...
--
Konobaricao zdere u auli PMF-a (matematika) krvav kamionog
buljija svakih 15 minuta ? By runf
Cydrome Leader
> Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> kenjka:
>> >> > Other option is to go to Hitachi AMS2000 series which uses SAS drives, and
>> >> > costs almost half of the same-range EMC CLARiiON... And they will surely
>> >> > give you quite a discount if replacing this CX700...
>> >
>> >> Do you have any first hand reports on the AMS2000?
>> >
>> > Yup, we sell it too...
>
>> So what's the good and bad of them vs. the ams1000, aside from the change
>> in disk trays?
>
> Absolutely no idea... I'm in EMC team, not in Hitachi... All that I know is
Ha, ok.
> that Hitachi guys (as well as my EMC team) are considering Hitachi AMS
> series as a real problem when trying to sell EMC... Hitachi's more reliable
> and almost twice cheaper, but there are other problems with Hitachi which
> are more people-related than technology-related... :)
Mmy opinion is the software for the hitachi stuff all sucks. There doesn't
seem to be any support website, I have no idea where you get docs, if they
exist or are even translated into English and the programs themselves are
just strange and somewhat crippled. I might use three different Hitachi
programs at once just to add a LUN to a host. It makes no sense, other
than Hitachi had non-technical people that can't spell SAN write the
management softare.
The hardware itself seems good. Every once in a while a drive fails and
somebody shows up to replace it.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> > that Hitachi guys (as well as my EMC team) are considering Hitachi AMS
> > series as a real problem when trying to sell EMC... Hitachi's more reliable
> > and almost twice cheaper, but there are other problems with Hitachi which
> > are more people-related than technology-related... :)
> Mmy opinion is the software for the hitachi stuff all sucks. There doesn't
> seem to be any support website, I have no idea where you get docs, if they
> exist or are even translated into English and the programs themselves are
> just strange and somewhat crippled. I might use three different Hitachi
> programs at once just to add a LUN to a host. It makes no sense, other
> than Hitachi had non-technical people that can't spell SAN write the
> management softare.
Yes, that's Hitachi's main problem - software and support... EMC is calling
themselves 'software company', and are claiming that they're 4th biggest
software company... :)
Hitachi holds Asian market mostly, and they manufacture enterprise boxes for
HP and Sun, so they get a market share in EMEA/USA with these brands...
I believe that software is mainly left to HP and Sun to design and
support...
> The hardware itself seems good. Every once in a while a drive fails and
> somebody shows up to replace it.
EMC has got the same stuff, when something in the storage array breaks down,
the storage box calls service center in Cork and sends data about what has
happened, so the partner can dispatch service crew and replace the
problematic parts...
--
Konobaro siluje zarazen biciklo udise u auli FER-a
Cydrome Leader
> Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> kenjka:
>> > that Hitachi guys (as well as my EMC team) are considering Hitachi AMS
>> > series as a real problem when trying to sell EMC... Hitachi's more reliable
>> > and almost twice cheaper, but there are other problems with Hitachi which
>> > are more people-related than technology-related... :)
>
>> Mmy opinion is the software for the hitachi stuff all sucks. There doesn't
>> seem to be any support website, I have no idea where you get docs, if they
>> exist or are even translated into English and the programs themselves are
>> just strange and somewhat crippled. I might use three different Hitachi
>> programs at once just to add a LUN to a host. It makes no sense, other
>> than Hitachi had non-technical people that can't spell SAN write the
>> management softare.
>
> Yes, that's Hitachi's main problem - software and support... EMC is calling
> themselves 'software company', and are claiming that they're 4th biggest
> software company... :)
>
> Hitachi holds Asian market mostly, and they manufacture enterprise boxes for
> HP and Sun, so they get a market share in EMEA/USA with these brands...
I know the older (maybe still true) HP arrays were hitachi if you opened
them up, but the support was still from HP and HP has some of the finest
docs out there.
The Hitachi field engineers seem great- they know the stuff inside and out
as they should, but when it comes to the damn management software, it
really seems like you're on your own.
> I believe that software is mainly
left to HP and Sun to design and > support...
For rebadged stuff, probably, but if you buy HDS stuff from a HDS reseller
or whatever that nonsense is called, you get to deal with HDS themselves
(at least in the US).
>> The hardware itself seems good. Every once in a while a drive fails and
>> somebody shows up to replace it.
>
> EMC has got the same stuff, when something in the storage array breaks down,
> the storage box calls service center in Cork and sends data about what has
> happened, so the partner can dispatch service crew and replace the
> problematic parts...
The stuff here "calls home" though FTP. I keep meaning to snoop exactly
what is being sent to the HDS FTP site when a drive fails.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> > Hitachi holds Asian market mostly, and they manufacture enterprise boxes for
> > HP and Sun, so they get a market share in EMEA/USA with these brands...
> I know the older (maybe still true) HP arrays were hitachi if you opened
> them up, but the support was still from HP and HP has some of the finest
> docs out there.
Yup... XP boxes are Hitachi USP and USP-V from the inside...
> The Hitachi field engineers seem great- they know the stuff inside and out
> as they should, but when it comes to the damn management software, it
> really seems like you're on your own.
Talking to me, I've seen management for UPS machine... We were looking at it
trying to figure out which drives are installed inside... :)))) Took us
about and hour... ;)
> For rebadged stuff, probably, but if you buy HDS stuff from a HDS reseller
> or whatever that nonsense is called, you get to deal with HDS themselves
> (at least in the US).
Here in Croatia, everything is sold through partners... My company is a
partner for almost everything that counts (EMC, Hitachi, IBM, HP, Sun,
VMware, Oracle, SAP, Microsoft, etc)... When we sell any stuff, we have to
stock spare parts and take warranty on us...
> > EMC has got the same stuff, when something in the storage array breaks down,
> > the storage box calls service center in Cork and sends data about what has
> > happened, so the partner can dispatch service crew and replace the
> > problematic parts...
> The stuff here "calls home" though FTP. I keep meaning to snoop exactly
> what is being sent to the HDS FTP site when a drive fails.
EMC uses modem or remote gateway for this, but in Croatia we use modem
communications for this...
--
Na poljudskom stadionu psihologa gura bodljikav jabukao
likuje danima ? By runf
Cydrome Leader
> Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> kenjka:
>> > Hitachi holds Asian market mostly, and they manufacture enterprise boxes for
>> > HP and Sun, so they get a market share in EMEA/USA with these brands...
>
>> I know the older (maybe still true) HP arrays were hitachi if you opened
>> them up, but the support was still from HP and HP has some of the finest
>> docs out there.
>
> Yup... XP boxes are Hitachi USP and USP-V from the inside...
>
>> The Hitachi field engineers seem great- they know the stuff inside and out
>> as they should, but when it comes to the damn management software, it
>> really seems like you're on your own.
>
> Talking to me, I've seen management for UPS machine... We were looking at it
> trying to figure out which drives are installed inside... :)))) Took us
> about and hour... ;)
That sounds about right.
HiCommand's "Device Manager" is one awesome program. It's great to locate
free space, but the ability to actually allocate it is 100% broken. It
can't ever add space to a host because it's not able to tell you checked a
box, ever, at all, on any browser.
It's like WTF, can somebody fix this program, or has it ever been tested?
All the error message have misleading IBM like error codes like
"KAIC10175-E" except there's no book to look up the error or what it
means. I suspect they're random and nobody knows what they are, even in
Japan.
>> For rebadged stuff, probably, but if you buy HDS stuff from a HDS reseller
>> or whatever that nonsense is called, you get to deal with HDS themselves
>> (at least in the US).
>
> Here in Croatia, everything is sold through partners... My company is a
> partner for almost everything that counts (EMC, Hitachi, IBM, HP, Sun,
> VMware, Oracle, SAP, Microsoft, etc)... When we sell any stuff, we have to
> stock spare parts and take warranty on us...
Interesting. So when an IBM customer has problems, you switch out your Sun
shirt and show up as IBM?
For HDS here, it seems they have real employees that come out, but simple
stuff like disk swaps is handled by a third party, like maintanence for
SUN and HP unless you have some sort of 4 hour support and a really big
deal problem. I have no problem with this as those techs know their stuff,
I really don't care what company name is on their paychecks.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> > Talking to me, I've seen management for UPS machine... We were looking at it
> > trying to figure out which drives are installed inside... :)))) Took us
> > about and hour... ;)
> That sounds about right.
> All the error message have misleading IBM like error codes like
> "KAIC10175-E" except there's no book to look up the error or what it
> means. I suspect they're random and nobody knows what they are, even in
> Japan.
:DDDDDDDDDDDDDD
> > Here in Croatia, everything is sold through partners... My company is a
> > partner for almost everything that counts (EMC, Hitachi, IBM, HP, Sun,
> > VMware, Oracle, SAP, Microsoft, etc)... When we sell any stuff, we have to
> > stock spare parts and take warranty on us...
> Interesting. So when an IBM customer has problems, you switch out your Sun
> shirt and show up as IBM?
Nope... We have people designated for every vendor... Few guys are
technicians for their vendor, like 3 guys for EMC, 2 guys for HP, 2 for IBM,
3 for Sun, etc...
Don't know how business is done i USA, but here in smaller countries accross
Europe, almost everything is done via partners... So, let's say, EMC has got
and office in Croatia that serves 3 major partners, 1 distributor, 1
training centre... Croatia is a small country with 4 mil people, but we have
offices of almost every big vendor here... You'd be surprised, but this
market is very funny, a lot of enterprise boxes are sold here (EMC
Symmetrix, IBM DS8000, HP XP, Hitachi USP, IBM System-z, HP SuperDome,
etc)... Almost everything is done on FC SAN, and nobody even thinks about
iSCSI or NAS systems... :))) Like I said, totally funny, nobody asks how
much it costs, all that is needed is that it's working and that it's
expensive... :)
> For HDS here, it seems they have real employees that come out, but simple
> stuff like disk swaps is handled by a third party, like maintanence for
> SUN and HP unless you have some sort of 4 hour support and a really big
> deal problem. I have no problem with this as those techs know their stuff,
> I really don't care what company name is on their paychecks.
Well, we have a stock of spare parts for customers that have SLA's signed
with us...
Vendor offices are here mostly for marketing, sales and presales
activities...
--
U frizideru studenta povraca suncokretov sladoledo izbacuje
popodne ? By runf
Cydrome Leader
> Cydrome Leader <pres...@mungepanix.com> kenjka:
>> > Talking to me, I've seen management for UPS machine... We were looking at it
>> > trying to figure out which drives are installed inside... :)))) Took us
>> > about and hour... ;)
>
>> That sounds about right.
>
>> All the error message have misleading IBM like error codes like
>> "KAIC10175-E" except there's no book to look up the error or what it
>> means. I suspect they're random and nobody knows what they are, even in
>> Japan.
>
> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDD
>
>> > Here in Croatia, everything is sold through partners... My company is a
>> > partner for almost everything that counts (EMC, Hitachi, IBM, HP, Sun,
>> > VMware, Oracle, SAP, Microsoft, etc)... When we sell any stuff, we have to
>> > stock spare parts and take warranty on us...
>
>> Interesting. So when an IBM customer has problems, you switch out your Sun
>> shirt and show up as IBM?
>
> Nope... We have people designated for every vendor... Few guys are
> technicians for their vendor, like 3 guys for EMC, 2 guys for HP, 2 for IBM,
> 3 for Sun, etc...
Ok.
> Don't know how business is done i USA, but here in smaller countries accross
> Europe, almost everything is done via partners... So, let's say, EMC has got
Here most vendors have people who could do work, but they want to force
you to use a VAR as well. All most VARs do is try to sell you extra stupid
services you don't need and then botch the order up somehow. It seems like
a stupid way to do things to me, and it's especially annoying when they go
out of business. Try calling Cisco for license enable keys at 4pm on
Friday after your VAR went out of business or changed names. Even if Cisco
sends you new hardware, you have to deal with the stupid VAR to get
license keys again. It's completely stupid and whoever though of that
model needs to set on fire.
Most maintenance from any company is handled by third parties that just
pretend to be from whatever vendor their work order says. It makes some
sense as less people can handle more work that way, and I'm sure it's
cheaper for everybody that way.
Even software companies make you do stupid stuff like find a VAR. Last
time I ordered Vmware, I had to call Vmware to find a VAR that never
returned my calls or emails. Then I had to call back to get the name of
another VAR, then I got a quote for the published price, then I had to
make a PO for the software and support. I didn't even get a piece of paper
or anything. It's completely retarded that I could not just type in a CC
number on vmware.com and download a license key. I had to fill out all
sort of paperwork to download a file from a website.
> and office in Croatia that serves 3 major partners, 1 distributor, 1
> training centre... Croatia is a small country with 4 mil people, but we have
> offices of almost every big vendor here... You'd be surprised, but this
> market is very funny, a lot of enterprise boxes are sold here (EMC
> Symmetrix, IBM DS8000, HP XP, Hitachi USP, IBM System-z, HP SuperDome,
> etc)... Almost everything is done on FC SAN, and nobody even thinks about
> iSCSI or NAS systems... :))) Like I said, totally funny, nobody asks how
> much it costs, all that is needed is that it's working and that it's
> expensive... :)
What do all these machines do- who uses them?
>> For HDS here, it seems they have real employees that come out, but simple
>> stuff like disk swaps is handled by a third party, like maintanence for
>> SUN and HP unless you have some sort of 4 hour support and a really big
>> deal problem. I have no problem with this as those techs know their stuff,
>> I really don't care what company name is on their paychecks.
>
> Well, we have a stock of spare parts for customers that have SLA's signed
> with us...
Here is the US major vendors have parts depots, either at
logistics/shipping company warehouses or at warehouses at major airports.
For instance, if I want a new fuser assembly for a HP laserjet, it's
probably sitting in a box, right now at UPS logistics (something like
that) in Kentucky . They get the order from HP, print a label and it get
shipped to me, probably within hours. If I need Netapp parts, I think
they're sitting in a warehouse by O'Hare international airport and a
courier or tech can get them to me in just a couple hours, maybe even
less. It works pretty nicely. I'm sure it's a bit slower if you're in some
far away rural area though.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> Here most vendors have people who could do work, but they want to force
> you to use a VAR as well. All most VARs do is try to sell you extra stupid
> services you don't need and then botch the order up somehow. It seems like
> a stupid way to do things to me, and it's especially annoying when they go
> out of business. Try calling Cisco for license enable keys at 4pm on
> Friday after your VAR went out of business or changed names. Even if Cisco
> sends you new hardware, you have to deal with the stupid VAR to get
> license keys again. It's completely stupid and whoever though of that
> model needs to set on fire.
Gees!! That's awful!!
> Even software companies make you do stupid stuff like find a VAR. Last
> time I ordered Vmware, I had to call Vmware to find a VAR that never
> returned my calls or emails. Then I had to call back to get the name of
> another VAR, then I got a quote for the published price, then I had to
> make a PO for the software and support. I didn't even get a piece of paper
> or anything. It's completely retarded that I could not just type in a CC
> number on vmware.com and download a license key. I had to fill out all
> sort of paperwork to download a file from a website.
Well, for VMware we have 2 VARs in Croatia, and me and my colleague
configure what should be ordered for each project, then register project
with VMware (for better discounts) and then our purchasing manager orders
those licences from VARs... We get licences the same or next day...
> > and office in Croatia that serves 3 major partners, 1 distributor, 1
> > training centre... Croatia is a small country with 4 mil people, but we have
> > offices of almost every big vendor here... You'd be surprised, but this
> > market is very funny, a lot of enterprise boxes are sold here (EMC
> > Symmetrix, IBM DS8000, HP XP, Hitachi USP, IBM System-z, HP SuperDome,
> > etc)... Almost everything is done on FC SAN, and nobody even thinks about
> > iSCSI or NAS systems... :))) Like I said, totally funny, nobody asks how
> > much it costs, all that is needed is that it's working and that it's
> > expensive... :)
> What do all these machines do- who uses them?
Banks, newspaper companies, telecom companies, etc... Here we call it
enterprise companies, but in US terms this should be true mid-range
companies (from 500 to 5000 employees)... :)
> >> For HDS here, it seems they have real employees that come out, but simple
> >> stuff like disk swaps is handled by a third party, like maintanence for
> >> SUN and HP unless you have some sort of 4 hour support and a really big
> >> deal problem. I have no problem with this as those techs know their stuff,
> >> I really don't care what company name is on their paychecks.
> >
> > Well, we have a stock of spare parts for customers that have SLA's signed
> > with us...
> Here is the US major vendors have parts depots, either at
> logistics/shipping company warehouses or at warehouses at major airports.
Cool!
> For instance, if I want a new fuser assembly for a HP laserjet, it's
> probably sitting in a box, right now at UPS logistics (something like
> that) in Kentucky . They get the order from HP, print a label and it get
> shipped to me, probably within hours. If I need Netapp parts, I think
> they're sitting in a warehouse by O'Hare international airport and a
> courier or tech can get them to me in just a couple hours, maybe even
> less. It works pretty nicely. I'm sure it's a bit slower if you're in some
> far away rural area though.
That's really cool way of doing things! Here in Croatia, partner has to buy
spare parts and place it in it's own parts depot... And parts are not
cheap... :)
--
Pekaro izbacuje u rodilistu suncokretov Japanaco mase
za pet minuta ? By runf
mrvelous1
On Sep 19, 9:47 pm, Cydrome Leader <prese...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
> caly...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid wrote:
> > Cydrome Leader <prese...@mungepanix.com> kenjka:
Years ago the concept of a VAR was explained to me as a company that
could sell us OEM parts at a discount, assist with the specs,
configuration, administration, etc. I asked, um, are you replacing us
Admins with these people? I got no answer from management.
Fortunately it has yet to happen, much. Today, years later, it seems
the only way you can buy equipment, parts, licenses, or service
contracts from an OEM is through a VAR.
But you can be creative. We purchased an EMC DMX through Dell with a
service contract direct with EMC. Purchasing through Dell got us
credits for our parent company that improves the discount that
corporate gets when buying other Dell products. I don't have to call
Del(hi) to get some level I bonehead to send it up through the Dell
idiots only to be told that they will have to call EMC anyways. I
just call EMC. It's all about what you put in your contract. Don't
be spoon fed by the "VAR".
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> But you can be creative. We purchased an EMC DMX through Dell with a
> service contract direct with EMC. Purchasing through Dell got us
> credits for our parent company that improves the discount that
> corporate gets when buying other Dell products. I don't have to call
> Del(hi) to get some level I bonehead to send it up through the Dell
ROTFL! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
--
Cirkularo udise zajeban gledalisteog prdija u sahti
svakih 15 minuta ? By runf
Cydrome Leader
The use of computers to make shipping owrk faster is a nice thing. In
these case, like HP and Netapp, they own the parts, nobody has to buy
anything, they're just sitting in the most covenient place possible in
case somebody has to pick them up or they need to delivered somewhere.
Another example of this working out nicely is if you have a server grade
disk fail in a HP server. They send you a new one, and the return label
ships the drive back to super huge contact manufacturing company like
Inventec or whoever for repair or disposal. Sun does the same thing. You
can order 5 different parts and they will all ship back to different
places for repair, or may come from different places. I'm pretty sure
older processor (modules) ship to or from in Canada (probably to/from
Celestica) where they were made.
Of course, Netapp wants you to buy "spares kits" for everything. It's just
extra hardware that has no license. It makes them money, but it's also
nice to be able to have your own spares if you really feel more
comfortable to have them onsite, or don't want to have full service
contracts with them. They'll even sell your system boards- basically any
part you may ever need that other makers won't even sell you.
Cydrome Leader
It's really annoying, since most places won't even return a call unless
you want prices on some million dollar project, and even then, you have to
beat them to even get a price without all the "extras" they try to hustle
on you in removed. Granted, even major makers are annoying as well. Just
try to call up EMC and get a quote on an exact list of hardware. They
won't do it.
> But you can be creative. We purchased an EMC DMX through Dell with a
> service contract direct with EMC. Purchasing through Dell got us
> credits for our parent company that improves the discount that
> corporate gets when buying other Dell products. I don't have to call
> Del(hi) to get some level I bonehead to send it up through the Dell
> idiots only to be told that they will have to call EMC anyways. I
> just call EMC. It's all about what you put in your contract. Don't
> be spoon fed by the "VAR".
Haha. nice.
How is dell's support on server type stuff these days? I've not had to
deal with them in quite some time. I mostly just deal with HP and Sun
these days. HP is pretty good even if you have have the plain 3 year
warranty on hardware. They do seem to push shipping parts even if you are
entitled to on-site, but this is fine for most stuff. I don't wan't to
have to wait around to escort somebody into the datacenter to swap a power
supply when I can do it myself, when I feel like going there. Sun's
support if you have a service contract is OK for the most part. Your stuff
will get fixed, although I can't stand sitting on the phone for 30 minutes
verifying all my contact info multiple times a day. Hardware support cases
seem to get processed fastest if you open them online. I've had bronze
hardware fixed onsite by a tech in hours of submitting a case, which is
way above and beyond. They seem smart enough to know that shipping parts
wastes more time than sending a field engineer that's already on service
calls in the area.
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> It's really annoying, since most places won't even return a call unless
> you want prices on some million dollar project, and even then, you have to
> beat them to even get a price without all the "extras" they try to hustle
> on you in removed. Granted, even major makers are annoying as well. Just
> try to call up EMC and get a quote on an exact list of hardware. They
> won't do it.
Yeah, I had some problems with spare parts orders from EMC... I want 5
drives of these type, they want to sell me 7 drives... Small amounts of
drives, I know, but we are just trying to build up our spare parts stock...
And we don't need more than we order... :)
--
"Divovskis li Bobiu cupu ?" upita mlijeko njusi poglavicao sere.
"Ne znam ja nista !" rece konobarica trci "Ja samo indijanacu njuku zelenkastm !"
Fumi
news:h8u7ad$obh$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> Mmy opinion is the software for the hitachi stuff all sucks. There doesn't
> seem to be any support website, I have no idea where you get docs, if they
> exist or are even translated into English and the programs themselves are
> just strange and somewhat crippled.
Have you tried this site for docs:
Boll Weevil
<pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
>Mmy opinion is the software for the hitachi stuff all sucks. There doesn't
>seem to be any support website, I have no idea where you get docs, if they
>exist or are even translated into English and the programs themselves are
>just strange and somewhat crippled. I might use three different Hitachi
>programs at once just to add a LUN to a host. It makes no sense, other
>than Hitachi had non-technical people that can't spell SAN write the
>management softare.
>
>The hardware itself seems good. Every once in a while a drive fails and
>somebody shows up to replace it.
>
Uh.. oh. This is turning into a religious war. Not to brag but let me tell you
my personal knowledge/experience about storage before I get on my soap box. I
have been working with HDS and EMC stuff since 1999. I am now a one man storage
consultant. I also know the celerra and the clariion very well, oh... NetApp( I
love Netapp!). Furthermore, I know the replication technologies of all of
them.. SRDF/A, timefinder, Truecopy, Shadowcopy, and the NAS replications. I
have hands on knowledge of all of them and am actively engaged in these
technologies, now.
Now, if I were to put a storage infrastructure into my own data center..... what
would I buy?? My answer is HDS & NetApp, hands down. From my experience, you
turn both of those on and you can walk away from them and go to your cubicle to
spend all your time surfing on the web to find the best place to buy a GI Joe
for your son's bithday. And, yes HDS is not perfect. Up until the recent
versions of Tuning manager, their software sucked. Also, their support staff
and sales people are limited. They don't buy me as many steak dinners as EMC
sales people.
As far as replication technologies. EMC and HDS are night and day. The
complexities of SRDF is insane compared with Truecopy. In Truecopy you edit the
HORCM files and kick the new disks in the pant and away they go. SRDF, you have
to issue very complicated RDF commands and then you have to stop the entire
replication group so you can add the new disks. Don't even try to compare
Celerra replication with NetApp. In my mind, the Celerra doesn't even deserve
to be considered considered next to the NetApp.
My personal theory is that EMC thrives on complexity and make more money with
support services. Admittedly, I have personally gained from their products
since I work in an EMC customer site.
One EMC item I personally do like is ECC. Of all the storage management
software, ECC is the most muture and most capable. If you wanna throw stones at
me, I don't mind. One major flaws with other storage management software is
that they scale poorly. Weather it is 50 or 150 hosts, once they get to their
numbers they turn into bloated and unuseable virus.
dogkicker
cal...@fly.srk.fer.hr.invalid
> Uh.. oh. This is turning into a religious war. Not to brag but let me
> tell you my personal knowledge/experience about storage before I get on my
> soap box. I have been working with HDS and EMC stuff since 1999. I am
> now a one man storage consultant. I also know the celerra and the
> clariion very well, oh... NetApp( I love Netapp!). Furthermore, I know
> the replication technologies of all of them.. SRDF/A, timefinder,
> Truecopy, Shadowcopy, and the NAS replications. I have hands on knowledge
> of all of them and am actively engaged in these technologies, now.
Well, I am on the opposite side... :) Working with EMC all the time... BTW.,
for my customers, SRDF/A is usable only in SRDF/STAR configuration... My
main customers are financial and telco, and SRDF/S is what they use (if they
have Symmetrix installed)...
TimeFinder/Snap(Clone) is not a replication technology (as SRDF is), it's a
snapshot/clone technology...
I don't like NetApp because I am working with EMC from the beginning, and I
like people from EMC...
> Now, if I were to put a storage infrastructure into my own data
> center..... what would I buy?? My answer is HDS & NetApp, hands down.
> From my experience, you turn both of those on and you can walk away from
> them and go to your cubicle to spend all your time surfing on the web to
> find the best place to buy a GI Joe for your son's bithday. And, yes HDS
> is not perfect. Up until the recent versions of Tuning manager, their
> software sucked. Also, their support staff and sales people are limited.
> They don't buy me as many steak dinners as EMC sales people.
I think that HDS doesn't care much about their sales because they have most
implementations in Asia... And in the rest of the world they use HP and Sun
to sell USP boxes...
> As far as replication technologies. EMC and HDS are night and day. The
> complexities of SRDF is insane compared with Truecopy. In Truecopy you
> edit the HORCM files and kick the new disks in the pant and away they go.
> SRDF, you have to issue very complicated RDF commands and then you have to
> stop the entire replication group so you can add the new disks. Don't
> even try to compare Celerra replication with NetApp. In my mind, the
> Celerra doesn't even deserve to be considered considered next to the
> NetApp.
Don't know much about TrueCopy, but I have made friends with one of the
engineers that worked for EMC on the SRDF/A development... :) He told me how
this stuff works, and that was all I needed to know... For implementation,
we have support engineers who went to trainings and know their job very
well...
About NetApp - like I said, I don't like their technology... They're mostly
into NAS storage, and here in this region I can't mention one big customer
who ever bought NAS... In fact, there is one, and he bought Celerra... And
that's our only cusomter with NAS technology implemented... Here is
everything overdimensioned, and we are always talking about FC SAN,
Symmetrix and CLARiiON CX4 (AX4 is rarely offered)... Croatia is really
strange country - cheap is considered as low quality, and that's it...
> My personal theory is that EMC thrives on complexity and make more money
> with support services. Admittedly, I have personally gained from their
> products since I work in an EMC customer site.
Well, like we mentioned before, HDS management software is crap... Nobody
can understand what they ment with it... :/
--
U autobusu se satima brezuljkast mackaog mrcvarija.