Very low pin count FPGA
Ian Hickey
FLASH storage) is say a SOIC-8 or similar.
It's for a small home project that only has one output and only one input
(plus CLK)
Thanks in advance.
Ian
Allan Herriman
wrote:
>Does any manufacturer make a very small programmable logic device (with
>FLASH storage) is say a SOIC-8 or similar.
>
>It's for a small home project that only has one output and only one input
>(plus CLK)
A PIC microprocessor may do what you want (small package and
reprogrammable) assuming you don't need to do things extremely
quickly.
Try news:sci.electronics.design or perhaps news:comp.arch.embedded for
more details
Regards,
Allan.
Falk Brunner
news:3ea276da$1...@clear.net.nz...
> Does any manufacturer make a very small programmable logic device (with
> FLASH storage) is say a SOIC-8 or similar.
>
> It's for a small home project that only has one output and only one input
> (plus CLK)
AFAIK no. The smallest pincount for CPLDs/FPGAs is somewhere at 44 pins. If
you need such a small logic device, and the speed requirements are not too
high, you may use a microcontroller. They are available in such small
packages, e.g. ATMEL offers them (AVR devices)
--
MfG
Falk
Ian Stirling
> Does any manufacturer make a very small programmable logic device (with
> FLASH storage) is say a SOIC-8 or similar.
>
> It's for a small home project that only has one output and only one input
> (plus CLK)
Now that some programmable logic is cheaper than odd TTL parts, a (OTP?)
PLD with 14-24 pins would be very nice.
Plug it into the programmer, type 74als526, remove device and insert in
circuit.
--
http://inquisitor.i.am/ | mailto:inqui...@i.am | Ian Stirling.
---------------------------+-------------------------+--------------------------
Get off a shot FAST, this upsets him long enough to let you make your
second shot perfect. -- Robert A Heinlein.
Ian Hickey
The project does have some medium speed requirement but probably could be
achieved with PIC12C508 or MSP430F1101A.
My main reason for looking for a CPLD or similar was I have years of micro
work and was looking for a challenge.
Is no one aware of a third tier manufacturer specialising in medium speed
10MHz to 30MHz logic with small pin count?
The device does need to be small for the project to work.
Thanks
"Ian Hickey" <ihi...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:3ea276da$1...@clear.net.nz...
Khim Bittle
wrote:
>Does any manufacturer make a very small programmable logic device (with
Your subject line was "FPGA" ... then the answer is nope.
Your message inquiry was " very small flash PLD in SOIC-8 or similar
" .. then the answer is maybe ... depending upon your requirements..
An simple example would be Atmel ATF16v8 in a 16 pin TSSOP which isn't
much bigger than a SOIC-8 ... but only 8 flops doesn't give much logic
power. I have used these on boards as a address decoder where I have
no space available.
A bit more exotic in a very tiny package would be a Xilinx CPLD
Coolrunner II XC2C32 or 64 in a chip scale package ONLY 6 by 6 mm !!
and that has 32 or 64 flops ... ( but the package prolly would not be
easily manageable as a home project )
KB
rickman
I know a way to convert a 44 pin QFP into a much lower pin count
device. You will still need the power, ground and config signals, but I
can cut the IO down to the two the OP needs.... where are my pliers?
--
Rick "rickman" Collins
rick.c...@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.
Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
rickman
Khim, you beat me to it! I have been looking hard at some of the
smaller packages on the Coolrunner (I) chips. The XCR3032XL (3.3 volt
Vdd and 5 volt tolerant) comes in the 7 x 7 mm CS48 package and is pin
compatible with the XCR3064XL. Best of all the XCR3032XL is only $2!
How much logic do you need? CPLDs are very powerfull in their own way
since they can combine *huge* AND terms. The Coolrunner parts are very
low power as well, typically drawing less current than a similar TTL
function!
Jim Granville
>
> Yes there are many small 8-pin micros out there which are very cheap sub $1.
> The project does have some medium speed requirement but probably could be
> achieved with PIC12C508 or MSP430F1101A.
>
> My main reason for looking for a CPLD or similar was I have years of micro
> work and was looking for a challenge.
>
> Is no one aware of a third tier manufacturer specialising in medium speed
> 10MHz to 30MHz logic with small pin count?
Currently you have SPLD and (smaller) CPLD to choose from.
SPLD come in TSSOP packages, so are quite small, but have quite low
register counts.
Lattice have just released a MLF package ispGAL22V10.
In CPLD, TQFP44 (10mm) is the most common small package.
Some offer BGA, but these have problems on single sided PCBs :)
TQFP48 (7mm) is appearing 'selectively'.
MLF packages are obvious for (smaller) CPLDs, as they have
high density and low electrical and thermal impedances, and can
be used right down to single sided PCBs.
The PLD industry is rather slower at seeing this, than the
uC industry.
-jg
Satoru Uzawa
> Thanks in advance.
> Ian
Does TI's SN74LVC1G97 or SN74LVC1G98 fit to your need? They are tiny 6 pin
"configurable" logic gates with 3 inputs and 1 output.
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/productfolder.jhtml?genericPartNumber=SN74LVC1G97
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/productfolder.jhtml?genericPartNumber=SN74LVC1G98
Satoru
Jim Granville
Fairchild did these types of devices first, see NC7SP57 and NC7SP58 etc.
But it takes a lot of tiny logic to make anything functional... :)
-jg
rickman
This is great! I have had to use the single gate devices before and it
has always been such a PITA to stock the several types you needed. I
tried to use NANDs for inverters to eliminate one part from our
inventory, but the ones I used needed pullups rather than direct
connection to Vcc. This part will cut my inventory to just four types
since they don't implement AND or OR. If I can tolerate extra parts and
delay, I guess I could use two and replace the AND and OR! Let's see,
it will take how many to do XOR? Again, just two!
I acutally learned how to design logic with muxes in school. Back then
someone had observed that you can implement any function with a mux if
you have both true and inverted inputs available. You put one signal on
the inputs and the remaining signal goes to the select. Depending on
which inputs you apply the true, complement, one or zero, you can form
any function of those signals. If you have the same number of signals
as select lines, then you can just use ones and zeros on your mux inputs
and ... feed those ones and zeros from a RAM and you have... an FPGA
LUT!
At the time I learned about this they did not expect this logic method
to take off since they were thinking in terms of ASICs and thought it
would take up too much real estate. Someone was both ahead of their
times and missed out on some golden patent opportunities.
Joshua Yin
HaHa!
Good joke!
In fact, CPLD's mini package is UBGA49, 7mm*7mm.
CPLD, such as EPM3032ALC44, is very cheap(less than $1) now and can be
configured by JTAG.
A master logic engineer can finish such a low density HDL design in several
minutes.
Do you really need a microcontroller?
Altera, Xilinx also supply free design tools on the website.
--
Best Regards,
Joshua Yin
2003.04.23
"rickman" <spamgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3EA38EBA...@yahoo.com...
Mike Harrison
>Pliers!
>HaHa!
>Good joke!
>
>In fact, CPLD's mini package is UBGA49, 7mm*7mm.
>CPLD, such as EPM3032ALC44, is very cheap(less than $1) now and can be
>configured by JTAG.
>configured by JTAG.
>A master logic engineer can finish such a low density HDL design in several
>minutes.
..and a decent programmer could also do a suitably simple design in comparable time.
>Do you really need a microcontroller?
I think the fact that we don't see low pin-count PLDs is that for the vast majority of applications
that might use one, a micro is a better solution, in terms of cost, flexibility, functionality and
power consumption.
In most cases the argument would be 'do you really need a PLD?'
Micros are infinitely more flexible and powerful, usually take a lot less power, and the only reason
to use a PLD is that a micro isn't fast enough.
Jim Granville
>
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:57:29 +0800, "Joshua Yin" <josh...@cytecht.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Do you really need a microcontroller?
>
> I think the fact that we don't see low pin-count PLDs is that for the vast majority of applications
> that might use one, a micro is a better solution, in terms of cost, flexibility, functionality and
> power consumption.
>
> In most cases the argument would be 'do you really need a PLD?'
> Micros are infinitely more flexible and powerful, usually take a lot less power, and the only reason
> to use a PLD is that a micro isn't fast enough.
You need to be carefull to compare like-process devices.
Microcontrollers are highly flexible devices, especially at variable
manipulation,
and state-variable designs.
That said, they are NOT lower power (same process), and using software
to 'spin fast'
to emulate hardware is inherently inefficent, from a power viewpoint,
and also from
a time-domain viewpoint.
Scenix (Ubicom) took the pathway of 'all in SW', and they have very
high Icc
levels - this is why most uC have an extensive HW peripheral array.
A PLD is inherently parallel, is very fast (eg protection), and it does
not
need 'SW refresh'.
It is also harder to 'crash' a PLD :)
There are many TimerChain / Peripheral IO expansion / FastPWM /
DataPath /
Power Management tasks where a low pin count PLD would complement a uC
very nicely, and we do many designs where a uC is used with one (or
more)
SPLD/CPLD. The end result is much better than trying to get
the uC to 'be all things' :)
One trend we see with uC is as they get smaller (8/11/14 pin devices ),
there is
more opening for distributed IO expansion : eg with lower pin counts
PLDs.
The PCF8574 is a good IO expansion example, and the prices of these are
HIGHER than many CPLDs, and they are slower, and far less flexible.
Atmel CPLDs have uA region static Icc's, and the newer devices from
Xilinx/Lattice
also have uA Icc, but they are following the speed-dominant path, and
there is
certainly room for a smaller package PLD device that follows a
uAFrugal-dominant
pathway.
Imagine what you could do with a uA PLD that was a morph of a
PCF8563(RTC) / PCF8574 (IOexp) / 4060(Counter) / TinyLogic ?
-jg
mctuv...@gmail.com
...Times, they are a changin'...
Here is an under $2 FPGA that sports 11 I/O pins in a tiny 4x4 BGA package (16 pins total).
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lattice-semiconductor-corporation/ICE40UL1K-SWG16ITR50/220-1960-1-ND/5129490
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
Rick C.
Jon Elson
pack with leads. Very easy to hand solder. These have an internal
architecture based on the old PLD devices, ie. 36-wide and gates, and are
non-volatile. They are also single-voltage (3.3 V).
They also have the CoolRunner II series of CPLDs which are similar in
architecture to FPGAs, non-volatile, available down to 44 pins, same
package as above. These do need dual power supplies (I think 3.3 and 1.2
V).
Jon
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
Rick C.
Jon Elson
> On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 1:46:15 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 May 2018 08:46:24 -0700, gnuarm.deletethisbit wrote:
>>
>> > On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 4:49:58 PM UTC-4, mctuv...@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, April 20, 2003 at 6:30:57 AM UTC-4, Ian Hickey wrote:
>> >> > Does any manufacturer make a very small programmable logic device
>> >> > (with FLASH storage) is say a SOIC-8 or similar.
>> >> >
>> >> > It's for a small home project that only has one output and only
>> >> > one input (plus CLK)
>> >> >
> Both the Coolrunner II and the 9500 series are very limited in
> capability and in the case of the Coolrunner II can be rather expensive
> for the larger devices. They also only package the smallest devices in
> the smallest packages. They just aren't useful for much other than
> simple CPLD type applications. Maybe that's because they are simple
> CPLDs?
seems like it could be a pretty small circuit. I have a case where I
needed 3 sequential reset pulses to put an Analog Devices chip in the
proper state upon power-up. The smallest XC9536 (now upgraded to
XC9536XL) was perfect, and smaller than I could have done it with 2
74HC4538s plus R & C.
Since the OP didn't give much info, I had to make assumptions on how much
logic he needed.
Jon
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
That is the crux of the problem. There are some number of applications which require more logic than a 22V10 but in a similar size package. Just as there is a wide range of MCU sizes in capability and packages it would be useful to have a similar range of capacities and packages for FPGAs. Not all MCUs in a 20 pin package are limited to 8 kB of Flash, some go well beyond that. But in FPGAs they seem to be less interested in a proliferation of die types so when they plan their devices a die with this must logic has this many I/O pins and they try to make as many as possible in the packages.
I was once told the die sizes in low end FPGAs are I/O bound. So the higher pin counts become a self fulfilling prophesy so they can charge more. I've also been told the FPGA makers have no interest in competing in the same application space as MCUs since the margins are much narrower. The big two FPGA makers are in the same mindset that their primary market is to supply the larger devices to the large communications vendors. Everything else is picking up bread crumbs.
If it weren't for that FPGAs would support many of the same interfaces that MCUs do and be available in similar packaging - able to compete head to head for applications that don't take a quarter MB of program to implement. Lattice presently has a 384 LUT device for just a couple of bucks, but it is in a package with 0.4 mm ball pitch which is not so easy to work with without a very fine PWB process and micro vias.
Rick C.
Jon Elson
>
>
> Yeah, but if you are still working on the OPs needs he said he wanted a
> device in an "SOIC-8 or similar".
>
bunch bigger than an SOIC-8. And, maybe there are some devices I don't
know about that are in such a small package.
Jon
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/n/nxp-semi/dual-pcb-configurable-logic
Rick C.
jim.bra...@ieee.org
gnuarm.del...@gmail.com
I think I read something about their newer devices, but I don't recall what was new. Here it is, PSOC6 dual core ARM, CM4, CM0+. I believe there is a version with a BLE stack on the CM0+. They have versions with 12 UDBs (universal digital blocks) or none. I guess that is PLD like, but I recall they didn't let you in on the details. Rather they have software that lets you chain preconfigured functions graphically.
Rick C.
