Protel 98
BRUCE FAUST
I have started a small company making PCI boards. We used an outside
firm to create our PCB, however, we plan to introduce several new
products (all PCI cards, etc...) and we are looking for input on EDA
packages for layout, schematic capture and routing.
What is everyone's recommendation? Orcad, Pads or Protel?
-Bruce
rlaury
BRUCE FAUST wrote:
> What is everyone's recommendation? Orcad, Pads or Protel?
>
> -Bruce
If you want a good working tool look at Accel EDA v13.
It is the best schematic /PCB package for the money hands down.
I've used them all. If you want to "play" computer, get somthing
else. If you want to make PCB's and make money get ACCEL EDA.
I do not work for ACCEL.
Ron Laury
Werner Huerttlen
BRUCE FAUST <bruce...@home.com> wrote:
>I have started a small company making PCI boards. We used an outside
>firm to create our PCB,
what CAD does this firm use ?
I would use the same. In addition I would continue to use this outside
firm; doing your own design is much work, I suppose more you believe
in the moment; so if you are a small company, share your income with
the outside firm is better, than doining it yourself, and loosing
time.
I use ProtelPCB2.8 (works ok) and Protel Schematic 2.4(works ok) and
specctra (actually 7.03 is more buggy than in the past, but is the
best router out there.)
I would not use Protel98 in the moment, too buggy. Use older
Protel-CAD !
Do you embedded PCI, too ?
Werner
Best regards,
Werner
remove .XXX in e-mail-adress
* Opinions expressed herein are my own and may
* not represent those of my employer
David Hunt
I use ORCAD schematic capture and PCB and like the combination. I still
use the DOS version, because I can't afford to update to the Windows
version. I have used the Windows version at work and consider it adequate.
Things have been renamed. Since I use all the error detection and
correction features I really like the combined user interface.
Also I hook the output of the BOM generator to my parts database, reducing
the ordering drudgery and misteaks in data conversion.
I own Protel but don't use it because of ORCAD's superior error detection.
By that I mean feature such as electrical rules check, cleanup, check
design integrity and so forth.
I have worked with:
ORCAD DOS rating 4 of 5 Good integrated package and I'm familiar with it
ORCAD WIN rating 3 of 5 Not quite intuitive, I have DOS version
Protel rating 3 of 5 Good for the price, but not so sophisticated
Mentor rating 2 of 5 The package is closed but too expensive.
CADAM rating 3 of 5 Possibly the best software, but WAY too expensive
TANGO rating 3 of 5 PCB package is excellent, schematic capture isn't
AutoCad rating 1 of 5 Good for mechanical, but very bad for PC board work
If money were no object I would choose CADAM. For a small company, that
occasionally does PCB layout work for hire. I like ORCAD DOS. Like I
said, it's what I have.
dh
Werner Huerttlen
z...@ds1.com (Peter) wrote:
>The only drawbacks of significance (to me) of PCB 2.8 are a) no direct
>support (with DRC) for split planes and b) thermal reliefs can go only
>to planes, not to e.g. polygon fills on signal layers.
Peter,
PCB 2.8 has direct support (with DRC) for split planes.
This is from Online-Help, and I tested it myself, its working:
How do I use an internal plane layer for more than one net?
Any of the four internal plane layers can be directly manipulated by
the user. Objects placed on these layers become voids in the solid
plane, when plotted. For example, you can place tracks to "cut" the
solid copper into split planes. However, this approach will not allow
more than one net to be assigned to a single plane layer.
Split power planes can be defined with full preservation of design
rule checking and net integrity. To define a split plane:
1. Make a power plane layer the current active layer.
2. Choose the Edit-Place-Polygon command.
3. Click the Split Plane check box to disable both the Horizontal
and Vertical Hatching options so that an un-filled plane (outline)
will be generated (the Horizontal and Vertical boxes should be
"unticked").
4. Assign the desired net to the plane and draw the plane on the
desired plane layer. These layers are plotted as reverse (or negative)
images, so any solid object drawn onto the layer will be a "void" in
the solid copper when the board is fabricated.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 to define polygons for all other nets to
be connected on this split plane layer. Ideally, the entire plane will
be divided into two or more unfilled polygon planes. This assures that
all connected/relieved pins will be inside a polygon.
One polygon may be enclosed inside another, however polygon perimeters
must not overlap (or cross).
6. Once all polygons have been defined, direct connections or
thermal reliefs can be created for each pin connected to the plane.
This is done when nets are assigned to the plane layer
(Edit-Change-Nets command) or when editing the plane connections for
individual pins.
This feature is supported by Advanced PCB's clearance and DRC checking
systems.
craig wiper
Not true. You obviously haven't been using Protel 98. It's great!
Craig W.
Peter wrote in message <3546328d...@news.netcomuk.co.uk>...
>
>This question comes up at least once a week in sci.electronics.cad.
>
>My opinion, which may be worth exactly what you have paid for it, is
>Protel PCB 2.8. This now-obsolete program is Protel's most solid
>offering to date, and I have been using it all the time since late
>1995. It runs fine under win3.x, win95, and (except for a few missing
>keyboard shortcuts) under NT4. The USA version is also not dongled.
>
>The only drawbacks of significance (to me) of PCB 2.8 are a) no direct
>support (with DRC) for split planes and b) thermal reliefs can go only
>to planes, not to e.g. polygon fills on signal layers.
>
>Their version 3.x stuff has good features but is buggy as hell, and
>their ..98 stuff is too early to judge - I would not even *install*
>the 1st release of any Protel product.
>
>There are many other candidates in that price range, of course. From a
>business-user perspective one can eliminate some of the more obscure
>ones on the grounds of a dubious future presence - if you have 200
>designs done in a dead package, that's not good.
>
>I use Orcad SDT/386 heavily for schematic work, preferring this highly
>productive DOS program to any Windows-based one I have ever played
>with. Except the South Korean CSIEDA which shows great promise, but I
>could not even get the demo of that one to work properly.
>
>I cannot presently speak from personal experience for Orcad PCB or
>Pads. Orcad was late to Windows and their first Windows versions were
>total crap, but I hear they have sorted it out now.
>
>>I have started a small company making PCI boards. We used an outside
>>firm to create our PCB, however, we plan to introduce several new
>>products (all PCI cards, etc...) and we are looking for input on EDA
>>packages for layout, schematic capture and routing.
>>
>>What is everyone's recommendation? Orcad, Pads or Protel?
>
>
>Peter.
>
>Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
>E-mail replies to zX...@digiYserve.com but
>remove the X and the Y.
Keith Alexander Mallen
David Hunt <dh...@mci2000.net> wrote in article
<01bd721c$e81b5cc0$6b24...@dhunt.iquest.net>...
On the other hand CADSTAR by Zuken Redac is a peice of toss.
Go and sue me
Steve Dewey
In article <01bd786a$30924240$52f382c1@default>
keit...@dial.pipex.com "Keith Alexander Mallen" writes:
> On the other hand CADSTAR by Zuken Redac is a peice of toss.
>
> Go and sue me
>
For those of us thinking of purchasing some kind of schematic/PCB software,
some specifics would be _very_ helpful, if only to bait the reps with !
Cheers
--
Steve Dewey
St...@s-deweynospam.demon.co.uk
Too boring to have an interesting or witty .sig file.
Ian Wilson
Protel 98 - very buggy. I am a very experienced Protel user.
-V3.x and Protel 98 crash often
-V3.x can delete your current file and its .~cb backup
-Protel 98 Router ignores pre-routes - regardless of what
documentation says
List goes on and on.
That said I use Protel V3 PCB and Schematic but usually check files in
V2.8.
I have a real complaint with Protel over them issuing upgrades every
year but releasing very very few service packs to fix bugs - and the
new releases often do not fix major outstanding bugs. I others have
this complaint email me as I want to start applying serious pressure
to Protel. Does anyone know of Protel Users groups?
Ian Wilson
le...@ozemail.com.au
(replace ".dot." in reply to address with ".")
Thomas Hauri
Hi Ian
I am also using Protel 3.x and am expiriencing the same problems you
already mentioned.
Especially the router problem is of great importance. Actually the router
included in PCB 3.x looks good but it is slow as hell. Using a P200 with
enough RAM I wasn't able to route my board within 48 hours !!!!!!!!
Using the router 3.x (seperate package) it took mostly less than 20
minutes. But I had big troubles telling it what to route and what to leave
unrouted or untouched. Which ended up in rerouting all the power lines
afterwards by hand.
Nice idea you have there of applying pressure to Protel. Because we are
not willing to buy a new package or an upgrade every 6 month that has more
bugs and some unused features as the version before.
Please keep me informed about a list or a NG.
Thanks
Tom Hauri, FHW, Switzerland
Werner Huerttlen
Thomas Hauri <h...@twi.ch> wrote:
>Please keep me informed about a list or a NG.
>Thanks
>Tom Hauri, FHW, Switzerland
in swiss you should get first class support, isn´t the european
headquarter there ?
Werner Huerttlen
le...@ozemail.com.au (Ian Wilson) wrote:
>Protel 98 - very buggy. I am a very experienced Protel user.
yes
>That said I use Protel V3 PCB and Schematic but usually check files in
>V2.8.
yes
>I have a real complaint with Protel over them issuing upgrades every
>year but releasing very very few service packs to fix bugs - and the
>new releases often do not fix major outstanding bugs. I others have
yes yes yes.
>this complaint email me as I want to start applying serious pressure
>to Protel.
I suppose more to do than not! to buy is not possible. Protel never
looks for user input, nor did more than PR.
I don´t know why Protel did not fix Bugs, instead of producing
Megabytes of buggy new options, noone needs.
To say again: I would buy a bugfixed PCB2.8 and sch2.4 at once. These
versions are great, it should be easy to improve.
The new client-apps are big, slow and buggy, and overloaded. This is
my opinion, of course.
PROTEL: are you interested in selling the source of these old versions
?
I am sure, I would be able to make a great package, and get rich...
>Does anyone know of Protel Users groups?
no.
Robert M. Ganter
Werner Huerttlen wrote:
> in swiss you should get first class support, isn´t the european
> headquarter there ?
Yes it is. They are very helpful, if You want to buy new releases. I am
still waiting for the promised bug fixes for Protel3.x, however.
BTW: as an aswer to my question, why I have to pay as much for an
upgrade to Protel98 as sombody who buys Protel stuff for the first time,
the salesdroid at Protel Switzerland argued, that this is a completely
new program, not an upgrade.
As a result to this I have decided not to upgrade anymore, as long as
Protel just rips off their customers (and this is just a rip off).
The idea to apply pressure to Protel may work, if enough people will
join this complaint. I doubt, however, that this will ever happen. As
long as severe software bugs are not treaten the same way by courts as a
hardware defects, marketing assholes without any sense for quality
products (please not: not all marketing people are assholes, just not to
be misunderstood) will define sales strategies at software companies.
For such creatures, making business is simply "make money fast", not
quality. This is actually a sad story, because Protel software without
the severe bugs would be a very good CAD package for its price.
Regards
Robert
PS: You can add me to Your complaint list.
--
Robert Ganter, Ascom Business Systems AG
Software Engineering Cellular Dep. CWECE 3269
Ziegelmattstr. 1, CH-4503 Solothurn, Switzerland
email: robert...@ascom.ch / PGP key available
Phone: ++41 (0)32 624 3269 / Fax : ++41 (0)32 624 3648
AbdulraHman Lomax
le...@ozemail.com.au (Ian Wilson) wrote:
>Protel 98 - very buggy. I am a very experienced Protel user.
We certainly do see this complaint a lot in this newsgroup. However,
there are also people using 98 without problem. So there may well be
some system-specific bugs.
AbdulraHman Lomax
mar...@vom.com
P.O. Box 423
Sonoma, CA 95476
USA
Chuck McCown
I bought (upgraded to) protel and returned it. Buggy.
Still using autotrax and schedit. At least that works the same every
time and never corrupts files or loses files. As long as I route some
of the tricky stuff, the old dos autorouter even saves me alot of time.
chuck mccown
frit...@humboldt.net
>Still using autotrax and schedit. At least that works the same every
>time and never corrupts files or loses files. As long as I route some of
>the tricky stuff, the old dos autorouter even saves me alot of time.
Same here
For superior printer / drill output I use their PFW 2.5 demo. Can't save
anything but you can import and then do gerbers , print, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------------
fri...@humboldt.net(Fritz Oppliger)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Werner Huerttlen
"Robert M. Ganter" <robert...@ascom.ch> wrote:
>As a result to this I have decided not to upgrade anymore, as long as
>Protel just rips off their customers (and this is just a rip off).
sorry to see, PROTEL continues its way to dissatisfy customers.
To say what I feel: to sell buggy software, not to fix the bugs,
instead of it selling a new package for big money, with additional
bugs is a crime. You should think of take a lawyer.
I personally feel good with pcb2.8 and sch2.4, this versions are worth
its cost. Sad to see, protel goes diffrent ways now.
Werner Huerttlen
fritzo***@humboldt.net wrote:
>For superior printer / drill output I use their PFW 2.5 demo. Can't save
>anything but you can import and then do gerbers , print, etc.
for drill and gerber output autotrax was even better: traxdrill was
able to match, what was very usefull...
htd-...@t-online.de
On Fri, 15 May 1998 17:27:44, fritzo***@humboldt.net wrote:
>>Still using autotrax and schedit. At least that works the same every
>>time and never corrupts files or loses files. As long as I route some of
>>the tricky stuff, the old dos autorouter even saves me alot of time.
>
>Same here
>For superior printer / drill output I use their PFW 2.5 demo. Can't save
>anything but you can import and then do gerbers , print, etc.
Funny how many people have done this, I do too.
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>fri...@humboldt.net(Fritz Oppliger)
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
Chuck McCown
Just received a trial version of protel 98. It came from sweden.
Didn't ask for it.
Claims 30 days total free use. Then it shuts down.
Do I really want to try it again?
Do I really want to waste all that time and work again?
Fool me once shame on you.
Fool me twice shame on me.
Robert M. Ganter
Chuck McCown wrote:
>
> Just received a trial version of protel 98. It came from sweden.
> Didn't ask for it.
Same for me. I gave it away to a friend, who wants to fiddle around a
little bit. I warned him, however, what could happen...
Actually Protel CDROMs should have a warning printed on it, like
cigarette boxes: "Using this software can severly harm Your computer and
Your briefcase".
Regards
Robert
Tony
Werner Huerttlen wrote:
>
> "Robert M. Ganter" <robert...@ascom.ch> wrote:
>
> >As a result to this I have decided not to upgrade anymore, as long as
> >Protel just rips off their customers (and this is just a rip off).
>
> sorry to see, PROTEL continues its way to dissatisfy customers.
>
> To say what I feel: to sell buggy software, not to fix the bugs,
> instead of it selling a new package for big money, with additional
> bugs is a crime. You should think of take a lawyer.
>
> I personally feel good with pcb2.8 and sch2.4, this versions are worth
> its cost. Sad to see, protel goes diffrent ways now.
>
> Werner
>
(I couldn't believe that version 3 of anything could cause GPFs with
such mind-boggling frequency...).
Tony