Did Intel screw up big time by selling its embedded processors?
Anonymous Remailer
http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Intel-slams-slow-iPhone-ARM-CPU/0,130061702,339292765,00.htm
I still think Intel screwed-up BIG time when they sold their embedded CPU's (StrongARM, XScale) to Marvell. The idea was that future devices would be more and more like PC's and that these should therefore have a 'real' Intel x86 processor. Now, several years later, it seems like Intel made the wrong decision and is paying dearly for it. None of the newest mobile phones use an Intel processor, and ARM continues its reign there, as the Intel embedded devices.
In the article, some Intel bloke is bitching that the iPhone should have had an Intel processor instead of ARM. But the x86 is totally unsuitable for battery powered handheld devices, and laptops using Intel processors rarely work more than 2 hours if they are used under normal office working conditions.
I liked StrongARM and XScale, but Intel foolishly thought they could force OEM's to use Intel processors in their devices. Wrong!! It looks they are going to lose marketshare and become also-rans in the new netbook segment. Already, some netbooks are popping up which use non-Intel Chinese MIPS processors and Intel's foray into the embedded market is bound to falter.
Anyone agree with me that Intel made a mistake selling their embedded processors?
Jim Granville
Nope.
If you read that carefully, they are attacking the market from two
different directions.
Intel is Morphing the PC into something much more mobile, and the Phones
are morphing into Web-Browsing, video playing systems.
Intel's pathway give you the phone second, it comes almost for free,
whilst the other direction start as a phone, and morph towards something
more.
Of course, the Elephant in the room, NOT mentioned at all, is Power
and battery life.
Keep in mind, the processors we know about in the public domain, are
not the same as what intel is showing the phone and ultra-portable
designers for 2009 design wins.
By all reports, Intel's Atom is doing very well.
eg: this claim ["The overall processor market rose 14 per cent during
the third quarter, and 15.4 per cent on the year, to reach a value of
$8.3bn (£5.25bn).
Much of this growth was down to strong demand for Intel's Atom processor
which registered shipment growth of nearly nine per cent.
"Not considering the effects of Atom, the overall market still grew at a
decent pace in the third quarter," ]
Notice that Apple changed from PowerPCB to Intel CPUs because of Intel's
R&D muscle and roadmap. - and managed that transistion surprisingly well.
Expect Apple to have an ultra-portable product with an intel CPU.
Plenty of room for both CPUs and differing applications morphs.
-jg
Joerg
Absolutamente! You just mentioned the very reason why I and lots of
other people hold their wallets closed when it comes to "mobility". A
device that cannot rival the old Casio portable "type writers" that
could run weeks on a few AA cells just ain't worth it IMHO.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Andrew Smallshaw
>
> Absolutamente! You just mentioned the very reason why I and lots of
> other people hold their wallets closed when it comes to "mobility". A
> device that cannot rival the old Casio portable "type writers" that
> could run weeks on a few AA cells just ain't worth it IMHO.
I'm finding myself tempting by an Eee PC at the moment, but battery
life is the one thing holding me back. For all its limitations my
10 year old Newton's 30 hour battery life means that it is genuinelly
mobile. Of course, if the batteries do happen to run out when you
are out and about you simply pick up a set of AA alkaline cells
from pretty much any newsagent or filling station - something you
lose out on when it seems every mobile device out there has its
own proprietrary rechargable battery.
--
Andrew Smallshaw
and...@sdf.lonestar.org
Joerg
> On 2008-11-10, Joerg <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>> Absolutamente! You just mentioned the very reason why I and lots of
>> other people hold their wallets closed when it comes to "mobility". A
>> device that cannot rival the old Casio portable "type writers" that
>> could run weeks on a few AA cells just ain't worth it IMHO.
>
> I'm finding myself tempting by an Eee PC at the moment, but battery
Same here. I would have bought one a long time ago but the battery
runtime is paltry. I do not see any benefit versus a low-end Dell where
there always seems to be some $399 deal.
> ... For all its limitations my
> 10 year old Newton's 30 hour battery life means that it is genuinelly
> mobile. Of course, if the batteries do happen to run out when you
> are out and about you simply pick up a set of AA alkaline cells
> from pretty much any newsagent or filling station - something you
> lose out on when it seems every mobile device out there has its
> own proprietrary rechargable battery.
>
That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever tries to figure
out how much in sales that is costing them.
Didi
wrote:
> > ....
> > ... Of course, if the batteries do happen to run out when you
> > are out and about you simply pick up a set of AA alkaline cells
> > from pretty much any newsagent or filling station - something you
> > lose out on when it seems every mobile device out there has its
> > own proprietrary rechargable battery.
>
> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
> NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
> their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever tries to figure
> out how much in sales that is costing them.
I also keep on wondering why so many market segments ignore
those amazing 2.6 Ah NiMH cells available nowadays.
The camera market seems to have enforced them on the industry;
some of the top-class zoom cameras (I just watch only that segment)
tried to go vendor specific Liion at a moment but went back to
AA cells. I guess because being unable to replace your camera
is understood as unacceptable by at least one vendor and the
rest have followed the market success.
Didi
------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments
http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/0a18c9c1b4b3d0c9?dmode=source
Vladimir Vassilevsky
Joerg wrote:
> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
> NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
> their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever tries to figure
> out how much in sales that is costing them.
There are reasons for that:
1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
2. If you allow for the generic batteries, great many idiots will screw
up and will be complaining, trying to sue, or just bothering the
customer support.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
Joerg
>
>
> Joerg wrote:
>
>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
>> NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
>> their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever tries to
>> figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>
> There are reasons for that:
>
> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
Not if you lose sales because of it. For example, when in the market for
a digital camera all models with proprietary batteries were a clear
no-no for me, no deal. I didn't even look at those.
It is the same with water filtration, coffee makers, other technical
equipment. When a manufacturer chose a proprietary solution where it
clearly was not necessary I become suspicious and usually do not buy
that product or, worse for them, advise others not to buy it.
> 2. If you allow for the generic batteries, great many idiots will screw
> up and will be complaining, trying to sue, or just bothering the
> customer support.
>
Got to have reverse polarity protection. Nikon seems to have mastered
that issue ;-)
Vladimir Vassilevsky
Joerg wrote:
> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>
>>
>> There are reasons for that:
>>
>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>
> Not if you lose sales because of it. For example, when in the market for
> a digital camera all models with proprietary batteries were a clear
> no-no for me, no deal. I didn't even look at those.
People like you or me are not the "representative buyers" in the most of
cases. Consumer stuff is made mainly for little boys and girls from 18
to 25 y.o. who are not concerned at all.
>> 2. If you allow for the generic batteries, great many idiots will
>> screw up and will be complaining, trying to sue, or just bothering the
>> customer support.
>
> Got to have reverse polarity protection.
If there is more then one battery, get ready for all possible
combinations :)
> Nikon seems to have mastered
> that issue ;-)
That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space and
expensive, too :)
VLV
Joerg
>
>
> Joerg wrote:
>
>> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>>
>>>
>>> There are reasons for that:
>>>
>>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>>
>> Not if you lose sales because of it. For example, when in the market
>> for a digital camera all models with proprietary batteries were a
>> clear no-no for me, no deal. I didn't even look at those.
>
> People like you or me are not the "representative buyers" in the most of
> cases. Consumer stuff is made mainly for little boys and girls from 18
> to 25 y.o. who are not concerned at all.
>
True, but make that 12-25. It is unbelievable how much buying power kids
under 18 have these days. Courtesy of their parents who are often
happily racking up credit card debt, big time.
>
>>> 2. If you allow for the generic batteries, great many idiots will
>>> screw up and will be complaining, trying to sue, or just bothering
>>> the customer support.
>>
>> Got to have reverse polarity protection.
>
> If there is more then one battery, get ready for all possible
> combinations :)
>
I've done many designs for battery-operated gear. You can insert the AA
cells any which way you want. If you get it right the units will work,
if you have one of more inverted they will not work but also not die.
>> Nikon seems to have mastered that issue ;-)
>
> That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space and
> expensive, too :)
>
Or a diode ;-)
Didi
wrote:
> ....
>
> I've done many designs for battery-operated gear. You can insert the AA
> cells any which way you want. If you get it right the units will work,
> if you have one of more inverted they will not work but also not die.
>
> >> Nikon seems to have mastered that issue ;-)
>
> > That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space and
> > expensive, too :)
>
> Or a diode ;-)
Or a diode plus a fuse if you cannot afford the voltage drop :-).
Didi
------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments
http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/b737f8337a0f4ac3?dmode=source
ArarghMai...@not.at.arargh.com
>On Nov 11, 4:32 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
>wrote:
>> ....
>>
>> I've done many designs for battery-operated gear. You can insert the AA
>> cells any which way you want. If you get it right the units will work,
>> if you have one of more inverted they will not work but also not die.
>>
>> >> Nikon seems to have mastered that issue ;-)
>>
>> > That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space and
>> > expensive, too :)
>>
>> Or a diode ;-)
>
>Or a diode plus a fuse if you cannot afford the voltage drop :-).
Unless the fuse is a user replaceable item, it still means sending it
in for repair.
And if it is replaceable, some fool will short it out.
What about a diode and a loud noise maker of some kind? :-)
--
ArarghMail811 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html
To reply by email, remove the extra stuff from the reply address.
Rob Horton
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:54:05 -0800 (PST), Didi <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 11, 4:32 am, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>> ....
>>>
>>> I've done many designs for battery-operated gear. You can insert the AA
>>> cells any which way you want. If you get it right the units will work,
>>> if you have one of more inverted they will not work but also not die.
>>>
>>>>> Nikon seems to have mastered that issue ;-)
>>>> That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space and
>>>> expensive, too :)
>>> Or a diode ;-)
>> Or a diode plus a fuse if you cannot afford the voltage drop :-).
>
> Unless the fuse is a user replaceable item, it still means sending it
> in for repair.
>
> And if it is replaceable, some fool will short it out.
>
> What about a diode and a loud noise maker of some kind? :-)
Vladimir Vassilevsky
Joerg wrote:
> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>> Joerg wrote:
>>> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>> If there is more then one battery, get ready for all possible
>> combinations :)
>>
> I've done many designs for battery-operated gear. You can insert the AA
> cells any which way you want. If you get it right the units will work,
> if you have one of more inverted they will not work but also not die.
Dito :-)
>
>>> Nikon seems to have mastered that issue ;-)
>>
>>
>> That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space
>> and expensive, too :)
>>
>
> Or a diode ;-)
Nope. Diode in parallel and a polifuse :-)
VLV
Paul E. Bennett
>> Got to have reverse polarity protection.
>
> If there is more then one battery, get ready for all possible
> combinations :)
>
>> Nikon seems to have mastered
>> that issue ;-)
>
> That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board space
> and expensive, too :)
Having developed some equipment for use by IQ-zero's I know that the
simplest reverse polarity protection is often a bridge rectifier (then
the equipment doesn't care about battery polarity). I also included
supply over-voltage protection as well. Board real-estate investment is
sometimes worth it to make the product dependable.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E....@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
Andrew Smallshaw
>
>
> Joerg wrote:
>
>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
>> NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
>> their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever tries to figure
>> out how much in sales that is costing them.
>
> There are reasons for that:
>
> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
case. That's without even mentioning the various fire hazard laptop
battery issues over the last couple of years, although laptops
probably deserve their own batteries given the higher power demands
compared to a lot of portable equipment.
> 2. If you allow for the generic batteries, great many idiots will screw
> up and will be complaining, trying to sue, or just bothering the
> customer support.
I think most consumers have got to grips with generic batteries
given the amount of devices that use them. Mass produced stuff
with custom moulded cases can easily arrange things so that it is
impossible to insert each cell with reversed polarity - only
accommodate the bump on the +ve cap at one end of the recess. If
circumstances don't permit that, a reverse polarity protection
circuit is what? One transistor and one resistor at a cost of
pennies and with negligible voltage drop.
When pandering to the idiots, it often seems that it is the
proprietary batteries that cause problems. By definition, each
battery is different and it often isn't overly clear how each
particular style is supposed to clip or slide into position.
--
Andrew Smallshaw
and...@sdf.lonestar.org
CBFalconer
> Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:
>>
>>> Got to have reverse polarity protection.
>>
>> If there is more then one battery, get ready for all possible
>> combinations :)
>>
>>> Nikon seems to have mastered
>>> that issue ;-)
>>
>> That's an extra FET plus few other components. Takes the board
>> space and expensive, too :)
>
> Having developed some equipment for use by IQ-zero's I know that
> the simplest reverse polarity protection is often a bridge
> rectifier (then the equipment doesn't care about battery polarity).
> I also included supply over-voltage protection as well. Board
> real-estate investment is sometimes worth it to make the product
> dependable.
Since that involves a loss of about 1.4 V (using silicon diodes) it
requires a circuit that can operate on very low power, when the
power is limited to a single AA cell. :-)
Please don't remove attributes for quoted material. I think I have
restored them, hopefully without error.
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.
Oliver Betz
[...]
>That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
>NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
<nitpicking> You currently don't get both (low self-discharge _and_
2700mA) in one AA NiMH battery </nitpicking>
How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
charger), at any temperature?
If you managed this, we can speak about weight and size.
In the mean, I'm really happy with my Li*-powered mobile devices.
Oliver
P.S.: There _are_ bad trends in battery technology, but that's not
using Li*.
--
Oliver Betz, Munich
despammed.com might be broken, use Reply-To:
Dombo
> On 2008-11-11, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Joerg wrote:
>>
>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
>>> NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
>>> their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever tries to figure
>>> out how much in sales that is costing them.
>> There are reasons for that:
>>
>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>
> It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
> ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
> me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
> out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
> case.
Most people don't care, by the time the battery goes dead the gadget has
been long since out of fashion. Or do you really think a iPhone will
impress anyone in two years from now?
> That's without even mentioning the various fire hazard laptop
> battery issues over the last couple of years, although laptops
> probably deserve their own batteries given the higher power demands
> compared to a lot of portable equipment.
The actual cells (typically 18650) used in the battery pack are often
exactly the same. But if your laptop battery dies after 3 or 4 years of
use you might be more tempted to buy a new laptop; a replacement battery
pack will be surprisingly expensive.
>> 2. If you allow for the generic batteries, great many idiots will screw
>> up and will be complaining, trying to sue, or just bothering the
>> customer support.
>
> I think most consumers have got to grips with generic batteries
> given the amount of devices that use them. Mass produced stuff
> with custom moulded cases can easily arrange things so that it is
> impossible to insert each cell with reversed polarity - only
> accommodate the bump on the +ve cap at one end of the recess.
Another reason for using custom batteries is the form factor of device.
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice 2600mAh
>> NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone must have
>
> <nitpicking> You currently don't get both (low self-discharge _and_
> 2700mA) in one AA NiMH battery </nitpicking>
>
Ok, you are right, Eneloop batteries are presently at 2000mAh. Good
enough :-)
Even the higher mAh Panasonic HHR (NiMH) I am using here have a
surprisingly low self-discharge.
> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
> charger), at any temperature?
>
Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
and can take batteries at any stage, but only standard sizes such as AA,
C, D and 9V. There is only a little more than an hour between worship
services and that works. Very successful since more than three years. In
fact we are still using the first set of batteries. Some are now way
past the 1000 cycle spec and still like new. Amazing.
> If you managed this, we can speak about weight and size.
>
Weight is going to be higher, of course.
> In the mean, I'm really happy with my Li*-powered mobile devices.
>
Meantime, I am very happy with devices powered by standard cells such as
the Nikon camera here. And the Sennheiser wireless mikes at church. And
the wands for the hearing-impaired. And my EMC pre-amp. And ...
> Oliver
>
> P.S.: There _are_ bad trends in battery technology, but that's not
> using Li*.
Sure, but what are you going to do if you are at the bottom of the
Zugspitze and your batteries run out? Or at a client and the low-battery
light on your EMC preamp comes on? I can just go to the next kiosk stand
and buy a few :-)
Joerg
> Andrew Smallshaw schreef:
>> On 2008-11-11, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>> There are reasons for that:
>>>
>>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>>
>> It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
>> ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
>> me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
>> out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
>> case.
>
> Most people don't care, by the time the battery goes dead the gadget has
> been long since out of fashion. Or do you really think a iPhone will
> impress anyone in two years from now?
>
That's the throw-away society mentality. Many people like me do not buy
into that concept. You'd be surprised about the legacy stuff out here
that is in top shape. A few radios from the 50's, a heavy piano from the
time Edison electric light hadn't been invented yet, etc.
Even in my lab you'll find tools such as this:
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/Dip_59.htm
Other than cell phones and laptops where you don't get a choice I
usually never buy a product if there is a similar one available that
lives with AA cells.
[...]
Vladimir Vassilevsky
Joerg wrote:
> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
> and can take batteries at any stage, but only standard sizes such as AA,
> C, D and 9V. There is only a little more than an hour between worship
> services and that works. Very successful since more than three years. In
> fact we are still using the first set of batteries. Some are now way
> past the 1000 cycle spec and still like new. Amazing.
This charger is good:
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/900/index.php
It measures the performance for each battery. After several years of the
normal use, good NiMHs are down to about 70% of the initial capacity.
Sometimes there are the bad batches of NiMHs, too.
>> P.S.: There _are_ bad trends in battery technology, but that's not
>> using Li*.
>
>
> Sure, but what are you going to do if you are at the bottom of the
> Zugspitze and your batteries run out?
Unfortunately the regulations don't allow for the generic standalone
LiIon rechargeables because of the fire hazard. You can have LiIons only
as a battery pack with the proper protection.
Oliver Betz
[..."never understand"...]
>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>> charger), at any temperature?
>
>Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>and can take batteries at any stage,
Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
don't know how to solve the task I described.
There are great applications for NiMH, especially since low self
discharge is available. But Li* offers a lot of advantages over them.
_I understand_ very good why they are used.
Oliver
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>
> [..."never understand"...]
>
>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>> charger), at any temperature?
>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>
> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>
That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
charged battery into his or her wireless microphone, gets distracted,
leaves it on the table. Someone else sees it there on the table, assumes
it was a depleted one and plugs it into the Ansmann charger. No problem.
At least not in about three years, else I would have seen lots of
damaged batteries because I am the guy who installed this.
> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>
Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
possibly want?
> There are great applications for NiMH, especially since low self
> discharge is available. But Li* offers a lot of advantages over them.
> _I understand_ very good why they are used.
>
LiIon is great but not everywhere. They are expensive and there is no
ubiquitous availability. Once upon a time Compaq had the idea of
standardizing laptop packs to some extent and make sure they were at
least sold at major airports but that effort seems to have fizzled.
Oliver Betz
[..."never understand"...]
>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>
>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>
>That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
batteries reliably.
Or maybe you simply don't notice that the batteries get hotter than
usual when they are inserted fully charged.
[...]
>> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
>> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>
>Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
>charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
>possibly want?
You _still_ didn't read correctly. I wrote "with different amounts of
available power": Try to charge NiMH reliably with low available
power. Trickle charge also isn't good for most NiMH batteris (and you
are still missing the range between "trickle" and "fast").
You also didn't comment the temperature range.
Maybe you confused the "cast-iron" (SCNR) NiCd with NiMH. NiCd was
pretty tolerant and wide temperature range cells are still available
for special applications.
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>
> [..."never understand"...]
>
>>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>> That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
>
> The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
> which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
> batteries reliably.
>
I'd have to dig that out but AFAIR it is the "Energy 16" model. We have
two of those in use.
> Or maybe you simply don't notice that the batteries get hotter than
> usual when they are inserted fully charged.
>
That is one thing I tested when we received the chargers. Inserted a
battery that was full for a 2nd time. Nothing got very hot. This was
with 9V 250mAh cells, also from Ansmann.
All we really care about at church is that this concept works reliably.
And it does. The pastor would have had a chat with me if the mikes would
quit in the middle of a worship service. Before we had these chargers
that was a constant problem but I haven't heard a single complaint in
the whole three years we are on Ansmann chargers/batteries. I guess this
company knows a thing or two about rechargeables. My only (small) gripe
would be that the LEDs in there begin to fade away.
> [...]
>
>>> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
>>> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>> Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
>> charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
>> possibly want?
>
> You _still_ didn't read correctly. I wrote "with different amounts of
> available power": Try to charge NiMH reliably with low available
> power. Trickle charge also isn't good for most NiMH batteris (and you
> are still missing the range between "trickle" and "fast").
>
One common trick is to accumulate (capacitor), then issue low duty cycle
bursts are higher currents.
> You also didn't comment the temperature range.
>
Well, batteries in general do not like high temperatures. AFAIK the
Ansmann charger does not measure the ambient temperature but I might be
wrong (it would be easy).
> Maybe you confused the "cast-iron" (SCNR) NiCd with NiMH. NiCd was
> pretty tolerant and wide temperature range cells are still available
> for special applications.
>
NiCd is very much preferable for some applications, especially phones on
trickle charge. They have been outlawed in many places but here in the
US we can still buy them at the supermarkets. Usually not as single AA
cells though, more as battery packs for phones and then they always want
>$7 per pack, up to as much as $15. Could almost get a new phone for
that :-)
Dombo
> Dombo wrote:
>> Andrew Smallshaw schreef:
>>> On 2008-11-11, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's the other issue I'll never understand. You can get nice
>>>>> 2600mAh NiMH, even some with low self-discharge. But no, everyone
>>>>> must have their own variety. I bet nobody in those companies ever
>>>>> tries to figure out how much in sales that is costing them.
>>>> There are reasons for that:
>>>>
>>>> 1. The unique accessories are very profitable.
>>>
>>> It can also be a liability - look at the flak Apple have taken over
>>> ipod batteries. I don't really think it's warranted - it seems to
>>> me that it's simply that people don't appreciate rechargeables wear
>>> out - but it creates a negative perception of the brand in any
>>> case.
>>
>> Most people don't care, by the time the battery goes dead the gadget
>> has been long since out of fashion. Or do you really think a iPhone
>> will impress anyone in two years from now?
>>
>
> That's the throw-away society mentality. Many people like me do not buy
> into that concept. You'd be surprised about the legacy stuff out here
> that is in top shape.
I think you'd be surprised to see how much 'legacy' electronics I have
in my home. However I don't consider myself to be representative for the
majority of people. And whether I like it or not that is what most
products are aimed at, for understandable reasons.
> A few radios from the 50's, a heavy piano from the
> time Edison electric light hadn't been invented yet, etc.
>
> Even in my lab you'll find tools such as this:
> http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~postr/bapix/Dip_59.htm
>
> Other than cell phones and laptops where you don't get a choice I
> usually never buy a product if there is a similar one available that
> lives with AA cells.
Neither do I, but most people really don't give a damn.
Joerg
Talking about legacy and not throwing anything away this is the wood
splitter from a friend I used a while ago. Built around the front axle
of a 1930's DeSoto, a discarded Caterpillar piston, a 1942 army engine
and all kinds of other junked parts. Even the gas tank gasket was cut
from an old shoe and somewhere on this rig was a soldered-shut Altoids
can. You'll get a kick out of this "wild thang":
http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/images/splitter.JPG
Started faithfully every single time, by draping a piece of rope around
a pulley and closing the eyes in order not to get his with stuff.
*KAPOW!* ... chugga ... chugga ... poof ... vroooom. Rust pieces
exploded out the exhaust muffler which by the way consisted of standard
water pipes welded together.
Oliver Betz
[..."never understand"...]
>>>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>>> That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
>>
>> The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
>> which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
>> batteries reliably.
>
>I'd have to dig that out but AFAIR it is the "Energy 16" model. We have
>two of those in use.
likely it measures impedance to guess the charge status. Hard to do
with limited power.
[...]
>>>> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
>>>> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>>> Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
>>> charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
>>> possibly want?
>>
>> You _still_ didn't read correctly. I wrote "with different amounts of
>> available power": Try to charge NiMH reliably with low available
>> power. Trickle charge also isn't good for most NiMH batteris (and you
>> are still missing the range between "trickle" and "fast").
>>
>
>One common trick is to accumulate (capacitor), then issue low duty cycle
>bursts are higher currents.
what should this be good for?
>> You also didn't comment the temperature range.
>
>Well, batteries in general do not like high temperatures. AFAIK the
NiMH batteries especially don't work well at low temperatures.
[...]
>NiCd is very much preferable for some applications, especially phones on
>trickle charge. They have been outlawed in many places but here in the
>US we can still buy them at the supermarkets. Usually not as single AA
but they have much lower capacity than NiMH.
Oliver
--
Oliver Betz, Muenchen (oliverbetz.de)
Joerg
> Joerg wrote:
>
> [..."never understand"...]
>
>>>>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>>>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>>>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>>>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>>>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>>>> That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
>>> The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
>>> which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
>>> batteries reliably.
>> I'd have to dig that out but AFAIR it is the "Energy 16" model. We have
>> two of those in use.
>
> likely it measures impedance to guess the charge status. Hard to do
> with limited power.
>
Unless you pulse-load to measure :-)
> [...]
>
>>>>> And you obviously didn't read my question thoroughly, and likely you
>>>>> don't know how to solve the task I described.
>
>>>> Well, all I can say is that we solved it by buying two uC-controlled
>>>> charge stations. What more than three years of flawless service could we
>>>> possibly want?
>>> You _still_ didn't read correctly. I wrote "with different amounts of
>>> available power": Try to charge NiMH reliably with low available
>>> power. Trickle charge also isn't good for most NiMH batteris (and you
>>> are still missing the range between "trickle" and "fast").
>>>
>> One common trick is to accumulate (capacitor), then issue low duty cycle
>> bursts are higher currents.
>
> what should this be good for?
>
It had been recommended by a battery manufacturer but this has been a
long time ago.
>>> You also didn't comment the temperature range.
>> Well, batteries in general do not like high temperatures. AFAIK the
>
> NiMH batteries especially don't work well at low temperatures.
>
> [...]
>
>> NiCd is very much preferable for some applications, especially phones on
>> trickle charge. They have been outlawed in many places but here in the
>> US we can still buy them at the supermarkets. Usually not as single AA
>
> but they have much lower capacity than NiMH.
>
Yes, true. OTOH I'd rather have a phone that works with 3h talk time for
three years than one that offers 5h but quits after a few months because
the NiMH does not like the usage/charge pattern.
Oliver Betz
[..."never understand"...]
>>>>>>>> How do you charge NiMH packs as fast as possible from any (maybe
>>>>>>>> unknown) state, with different amounts of available power (USB port or
>>>>>>>> charger), at any temperature?
>>>>>>> Cheaper chargers require 2h or more. However, at church we use a more
>>>>>>> elaborate charge station from Ansmann in Germany. It is uC controlled
>>>>>>> and can take batteries at any stage,
>>>>>> Insert a fully charged NiMH battery and it will be damaged.
>>>>> That happens at church all the time. Someone wants to insert a freshly
>>>> The "full" detection doesn't work with dU/dt detection, so I wonder
>>>> which charger you use. The Ansmann chargers _I_ know can't handle full
>>>> batteries reliably.
>>> I'd have to dig that out but AFAIR it is the "Energy 16" model. We have
>>> two of those in use.
>>
>> likely it measures impedance to guess the charge status. Hard to do
>> with limited power.
>>
>
>Unless you pulse-load to measure :-)
you don't want to spend the energy necessary to get a reliable result.
Joerg
In medical electronics or other safety-critical applications we usually
have to adhere to what the manufacturers recommend. For example, the
other topic (pulse charge) was explained here but currently this link
doesn't work:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/panasonic_nimh_chargemethods.pdf
Only a brief outline but at least this link works, page 18:
http://products.panasonic-industrial.com/datasheets/en/Panasonic_Ni-MH_Handbook.pdf
Oliver Betz
[..."never understand"...]
I'm afraid that you didn't even understand this document correctly.
Joerg
Like what in there? All I can say is that the battery apps I was
involved in afford their users a healthy and long battery pack lifetime.
Here is a brief outline of the other side, impedance testing:
http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap9-page2.asp