The scientific consensus about the Mentifex project

[Antti J Ylikoski]

The reputable SourcForge have accepted the Mentifex project onto their
www pages:

http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html
also:
http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html

I would like to read here, what is the consensus of the scientific
community about this Mentifex project. Some claim that it is rubbish --
but on the other hand it is there in the SourceForge.

kind regards, Antti J Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the EU

[Espen Vestre]

Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> writes:

> I would like to read here, what is the consensus of the scientific
> community about this Mentifex project. Some claim that it is rubbish
> -- but on the other hand it is there in the SourceForge.

So are several astrology projects.
--
(espen)

[J.A. Legris]

You won't find a "scientific consensus" here. In fact, you won't find
much of anything. Within the past decade, this group has attracted
exactly one actual AI researcher and one other very smart guy, both of
whom gave up years ago. Try the Yahoo AI philosophy group.

--
Joe

[Curt Welch]

Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> The reputable SourcForge have accepted the Mentifex project onto their
> www pages:
>
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html
> also:
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html

Can't anyone can create an open source project on sourceforge? I wasn't
aware there was any sort or quality requirement.

> I would like to read here, what is the consensus of the scientific
> community about this Mentifex project. Some claim that it is rubbish --
> but on the other hand it is there in the SourceForge.
>
> kind regards, Antti J Ylikoski
> Helsinki, Finland, the EU

This sums it up nicely:

http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
cu...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/

[Kaz Kylheku]

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.lisp.]

On 2011-10-24, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> The reputable SourcForge have accepted the Mentifex project onto their
> www pages:
>
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/mind4th.html
> also:
> http://mind.sourceforge.net/lisp.html
>
> I would like to read here, what is the consensus of the scientific
> community about this Mentifex project. Some claim that it is rubbish --
> but on the other hand it is there in the SourceForge.

Sourceforge is full of garbage startup projects that don't produce anything
wortwhile.

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-24, Curt Welch <cu...@kcwc.com> wrote:
> This sums it up nicely:
>
> http://www.nothingisreal.com/mentifex_faq.html

This FAQ itself contains flaw. If someone were to demonstrate a program that
can think, nobody is going to give a shit whether or not it implements the same
model as the brain. The model is irrelevant. If a machine produces the same
kinds of outputs for the same inputs (the same external behavior) then it
constitutes a valid behavioral model.

There is no need to pick such nits with regard to this Mentifex, as,
"Gee, the author makes a claim that the working program proves his theory,
which is a logical fallacy because the program could work, but in a different
way from the mind."

Come on, all that matters is that he has no such program and never will.

[casey]

Anyone with a computer and the ability to program plus
a collection of books on AI written by experts in the
field can play with AI.

But outside of reading books written by experts it is a
closed shop for they don't waste their time in groups such
as this.

There are I believe many experts who will never amount
to much because they lack an imagination on the other
hand a novice without a thorough familiarity with current
knowledge is unlikely to make any scientific breakthroughs.
Unfortunately that doesn't stop them having delusions
about their own ability to understand things.

> Try the Yahoo AI philosophy group.

Waste of time unless you really are expert in philosophical
talk and mathematics as they will not talk at a layman level.

Fortunately there are experts capable of explaining things
at a level any interested layman can understand and have
gone to the trouble to write books for such an audience.


jc

[fortunatus]

On Oct 24, 9:24 am, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.yliko...@aalto.fi> wrote:

Download the program and try it yourself. Study it and modify it.
Tell us what you think.

On the other hand, you asked for something from this news group first,
so it's not entirely fair of me to turn it around completely right off
the bat - so I'll offer my opinion that if you are interested in
Mentifex, then I do feel it is worthwhile to try out an implementation
and experiment with it. There can be something to learn there.

Mentifex is not the only guy who loves his program. There are others,
even some with their own implementations posted online.

(In spite of my positive attitude here, I somehow suspect you may be
such an interested "non-beginner", and are trolling us to demand
support and attention. If that's wrong then please forgive me - but
either way why not study the software? You won't regret it.)

[Antti J Ylikoski]

OK I see. I apologize if somebody feels I'm trolling the group.

I think I will heed your advice and try the program, and then report
about it.

yours, Andy

[Curt Welch]

Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:

I would like to see that report! Honestly. I don't think I've heard of
anyone brave enough to actually do that! :)

[Antti J Ylikoski]

See my entry below about "Kritik der reinen Mentifex".

Result: This is not much more than an ELIZA clone with some elaborate
hacks about thought.

kind regards, Antti "Andy" Ylikoski
Helsinki, Finland, the EU

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-10-28, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> See my entry below about "Kritik der reinen Mentifex".

Below what, brainy researcher dude?

Here is what "below" looks like, from where I'm sitting. The | symbols
represent the left edge of my window, and ---- represents the the bottom edge:

|
| kind regards, Antti "Andy" Ylikoski
| Helsinki, Finland, the EU
|

| ~
| ~
| 42811 : Re: The scientific consensus about the Mentifex pro -- 46/57 (Bot)
| SPC:Pgdn B:PgUp u:Un-Mark-as-Read f:Followup n:Next p:Prev q:Quit
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Curt Welch]

Impressive amount of work creating ASCII graphics however! :)

[Antti J Ylikoski]

I'm using the Mozilla Firefox, and it gives me a list of different
entries in this newsgroup, sorted by date.

"Below" does not mean, below a line on your screen, it means, below this
entry in the list of different entries that the Mozilla Firefox gives.
I. e. a chronologically later entry.

yours, A. J. Y.

PS. I'm not saying that I were "brainy". In particular if you happen
to be intelligent -- it is important to avoid all and every delusions of
grandeur.

Idem

[Antti J Ylikoski]

28.10.2011 23:08, Kaz Kylheku kirjoitti:

Hey dude-dude -- it is rather bad language to call somebody a "dude",
isn't it?

Andy

[George Neuner]

On Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:13:59 +0200, Antti J Ylikoski

<antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:

>28.10.2011 23:08, Kaz Kylheku kirjoitti:
>> On 2011-10-28, Antti J Ylikoski<antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
>>> See my entry below about "Kritik der reinen Mentifex".
>>
>> Below what, brainy researcher dude?
>

>Hey dude-dude -- it is rather bad language to call somebody a "dude",
>isn't it?
>
>Andy

"Dude" is slang, is informal and definitely is not the most polite way
to refer to or address someone. I personally wouldn't use it, but,
for me, "bad" has other connotations that don't apply to most uses of
"dude" (including the one above).

YMMV.
George

[Nomen Nescio]

> Hey dude-dude -- it is rather bad language to call somebody a "dude",
> isn't it?

Depends on the context. One stoner or surfer to another, good. City boy to
country boy, possibly fatal.

[Kaz Kylheku]

On 2011-11-01, Antti J Ylikoski <antti.y...@aalto.fi> wrote:
> Hey dude-dude -- it is rather bad language to call somebody a "dude",
> isn't it?

There are many dialects of English, most of which I don't know, but
this is not bad language in the dialects used in North America.
It is informal, however.

[Raffael Cavallaro]

On 2011-11-02 17:23:41 +0000, Kaz Kylheku said:

> There are many dialects of English, most of which I don't know, but
> this is not bad language in the dialects used in North America.
> It is informal, however.

If you could travel in both space and time you could find a location
where/when "dude" was western slang for a recent arrival, often well
heeled, and unaccustomed both to working with his hands and working
with animals such as horses and cattle. As such, it was a bit of a
pejorative among locals who were used to working with their hands and
with livestock. It had something of the feel of the modern slang term
"wuss."

This slang hasn't been in widespread use for quite a while seeing as
"Go west young man" now means "do an internet startup in Silicon
Valley" not "try and strike it rich on the Comstock Lode in the Utah
Territory."

This usage of "dude" is the origin of the term "dude ranch" - a place,
many of which still exist, where vacationers unaccustomed to ranch life
can breakfast on griddle cakes, ride horseback, dine on grilled steak
and beans, and otherwise pretend to be working cowhands.

warmest regards,

Ralph

--
Raffael Cavallaro

[Fritz Wuehler]

> If you could travel in both space and time you could find a location
> where/when "dude" was western slang for a recent arrival, often well
> heeled, and unaccustomed both to working with his hands and working
> with animals such as horses and cattle. As such, it was a bit of a
> pejorative among locals who were used to working with their hands and
> with livestock. It had something of the feel of the modern slang term
> "wuss."
>
> This slang hasn't been in widespread use for quite a while seeing as
> "Go west young man" now means "do an internet startup in Silicon
> Valley" not "try and strike it rich on the Comstock Lode in the Utah
> Territory."

It may mean that to you guys who can't get out from behind your keyboards,
but in every part of the American West, it is still a pejorative and likely
to get you a black eye or other recountouring of your anatomy unless
followed quickly by a believable "oh i'm sorry, i'm from California and i
didn't know what that word meant. Let me buy you a beer".

[Raffael Cavallaro]

On 2011-11-03 03:13:45 +0000, Fritz Wuehler said:

> It may mean that to you guys who can't get out from behind your keyboards,
> but in every part of the American West, it is still a pejorative

This is, of course, obviously false, as anyone who has spent any time
in Albuquerque New Mexico, Tucson Arizona, Denver Colorado, etc. will
know. It may well be that in some rural backwaters "dude" retains its
late 19th/early 20th c meaning, but the mainstream, modern american
slang meaning is in widespread use in western US cities.

[Raffael Cavallaro]