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Oct 29, 2023, 1:30:17 PM10/29/23

to

*Everyone agrees that this is impossible*

No computer program H can correctly predict what another computer

program D will do when D has been programmed to do the opposite of

whatever H says.

H(D) is functional notation that specifies the return value from H(D)

Correct(H(D)==false) means that H(D) is correct that D does not halt

Correct(H(D)==true) means that H(D) is correct that D does halt

For all H ∈ TM there exists input D such that

(Correct(H(D)==false) ∨ (Correct(H(D)==true))==false

*No one pays attention to what this impossibility means*

The halting problem is defined as an unsatisfiable specification thus

isomorphic to a question that has been defined to have no correct

answer.

What time is it (yes or no)?

has no correct answer because there is something wrong with the

question. In this case we know to blame the question and not the one

answering it.

When we understand that there are some inputs to every TM H that

contradict both Boolean return values that H could return then the

question: Does your input halt? is essentially a self-contradictory

(thus incorrect) question in these cases.

The inability to correctly answer an incorrect question places no actual

limit on anyone or anything.

This insight opens up an alternative treatment of these pathological

inputs the same way that ZFC handled Russell's Paradox.

--

Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius

hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

No computer program H can correctly predict what another computer

program D will do when D has been programmed to do the opposite of

whatever H says.

H(D) is functional notation that specifies the return value from H(D)

Correct(H(D)==false) means that H(D) is correct that D does not halt

Correct(H(D)==true) means that H(D) is correct that D does halt

For all H ∈ TM there exists input D such that

(Correct(H(D)==false) ∨ (Correct(H(D)==true))==false

*No one pays attention to what this impossibility means*

The halting problem is defined as an unsatisfiable specification thus

isomorphic to a question that has been defined to have no correct

answer.

What time is it (yes or no)?

has no correct answer because there is something wrong with the

question. In this case we know to blame the question and not the one

answering it.

When we understand that there are some inputs to every TM H that

contradict both Boolean return values that H could return then the

question: Does your input halt? is essentially a self-contradictory

(thus incorrect) question in these cases.

The inability to correctly answer an incorrect question places no actual

limit on anyone or anything.

This insight opens up an alternative treatment of these pathological

inputs the same way that ZFC handled Russell's Paradox.

--

Copyright 2023 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius

hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Oct 29, 2023, 2:12:53 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/23 10:30 AM, olcott wrote:

> *Everyone agrees that this is impossible*

> No computer program H can correctly predict what another computer

> program D will do when D has been programmed to do the opposite of

> whatever H says.

>

Good that you admit that.
> *Everyone agrees that this is impossible*

> No computer program H can correctly predict what another computer

> program D will do when D has been programmed to do the opposite of

> whatever H says.

>

> H(D) is functional notation that specifies the return value from H(D)

> Correct(H(D)==false) means that H(D) is correct that D does not halt

> Correct(H(D)==true) means that H(D) is correct that D does halt

D needs to be given.

So, your "Correct" function is false since H(D,D) will, as you just

agreed, never return the right answer for the D designed for it.

Note also, the FUNCTION Correct must return the value false if the H as

its input doesn't return a value in a finite number of steps, as that

makes H not actually a decider, so it is not a "correct decider".

>

> For all H ∈ TM there exists input D such that

> (Correct(H(D)==false) ∨ (Correct(H(D)==true))==false

ignorance.

Remember, each H above is a SPECIFIC Turing machine (and for each H

there will be a SPECIFC D, based on that SPECIFIC H, for which that

SPECIFIC H will get the answer wrong.

Remember, for EVERY actual SPECIFIC Turing Machine D (with input x) D(x)

will either Halt or Not.

For every actual SPECIFIC Turing Machine H, it will either give the

correct answer, so Correct will answer True, of H will either not answer

or give an incorrect answer, so Correct will answer False.

There is no case for a SPECIFIC H, and a SPECIFIC D that Correct(H(D))

doesn't have a True or False answer. Try to show the case.

Remember H is a SPECIFIC TM, (since H ∈ TM) not a "set" of Turing

Machines. Your "Correct" predicate doesn't take a "set" of Turing

Machines, but an individual Turing Machine, and the "Pathological" D

isn't built on a "Set" of Turing Machine, but an individual one.

The actual question is about a specific input, and that ALWAYS has a

correct answer, its just that some machihes won't get it right. And we

can show that for EVERY decider we can make, there WILL be some specific

input (depending on the specific decider we are looking at) that the

decider WILL get wrong.

Thus, non-computable valid problems exist, as shown by theory.

>

> *No one pays attention to what this impossibility means*

> The halting problem is defined as an unsatisfiable specification thus

> isomorphic to a question that has been defined to have no correct

> answer.

>

> What time is it (yes or no)?

> has no correct answer because there is something wrong with the

> question. In this case we know to blame the question and not the one

> answering it.

Does D halt, HAS a correct answer, H just doesn't give it.

DIFFERENCE.

Shows you don't understand the problem.

>

> When we understand that there are some inputs to every TM H that

> contradict both Boolean return values that H could return then the

> question: Does your input halt? is essentially a self-contradictory

> (thus incorrect) question in these cases.

self-contradictory.

You are showing your stupidity,

>

> The inability to correctly answer an incorrect question places no actual

> limit on anyone or anything.

>

> This insight opens up an alternative treatment of these pathological

> inputs the same way that ZFC handled Russell's Paradox.

>

logically talk about a truely "Unversal" set of all possible sets.

At best, your equivalence is just the admission that there IS a

limitation to computabilty, that there exist a class of properties of

Turing Machine that does exist and is valid (as the property is defined

for all Turing Machines) but can not be computed by another Turing

machine, given a proper description of the machine to be decided on.

That is EXACTLY the statement you have been trying to DISPROVE for all

these years, but seem to now be accepting, but still saying it doesn't

affect anything.

You are ADMITTING some things are not computable, and then saying this

fact doesn't limit what a computation can do.

That is like saying I know I can't get this car over 80 MPH, but there

is no limit to how fast this car can go.

Just a pitiful LIE.

Oct 29, 2023, 2:26:37 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/2023 1:30 PM, olcott wrote:

> [Subject: Does the halting problem

> actually limit what computers can do?]

> The inability to correctly answer

> an incorrect question places

> no actual limit on anyone or anything.

The inability of a computer program

to correctly answer all halting-questions

*places* no actual limit on anyone or anything.

That's not how a theorem works.

Nothing which a theorem is about _changes_

in response to a proof.

_We_ change in response to a proof.

Our state of knowledge changes.

Before we know that

no computer program decides all halting questions,

no computer program decides all halting questions.

The difference, before and after,

is in _what we know_

----

We finites are able to learn of

the existence of a wall of infinitely-many bricks

without our having stacked infinitely-many bricks

one on another.

All I am saying is:

Nice!

> [Subject: Does the halting problem

> actually limit what computers can do?]

> The inability to correctly answer

> an incorrect question places

> no actual limit on anyone or anything.

to correctly answer all halting-questions

*places* no actual limit on anyone or anything.

That's not how a theorem works.

Nothing which a theorem is about _changes_

in response to a proof.

_We_ change in response to a proof.

Our state of knowledge changes.

Before we know that

no computer program decides all halting questions,

no computer program decides all halting questions.

The difference, before and after,

is in _what we know_

----

We finites are able to learn of

the existence of a wall of infinitely-many bricks

without our having stacked infinitely-many bricks

one on another.

All I am saying is:

Nice!

Oct 29, 2023, 2:37:02 PM10/29/23

to

answer on their corresponding input D because this input D

essentially derives a self-contradictory thus incorrect question

for this H.

Like the question: What time is it (yes or no)?

the blame for the lack of a correct answer goes to the question

and not the one attempting to answer it.

Oct 29, 2023, 2:39:38 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/23 10:30 AM, olcott wrote:

> *Everyone agrees that this is impossible*

> No computer program H can correctly predict what another computer

> program D will do when D has been programmed to do the opposite of

> whatever H says.

>

> H(D) is functional notation that specifies the return value from H(D)

> Correct(H(D)==false) means that H(D) is correct that D does not halt

> Correct(H(D)==true) means that H(D) is correct that D does halt

Noticed that I misread what "Correct" was defined as.
> No computer program H can correctly predict what another computer

> program D will do when D has been programmed to do the opposite of

> whatever H says.

>

> H(D) is functional notation that specifies the return value from H(D)

> Correct(H(D)==false) means that H(D) is correct that D does not halt

> Correct(H(D)==true) means that H(D) is correct that D does halt

Note, that Correct(H(D) == value), where value is True/False can only be

true for the one value that H(D) does return, and the other, it can

NEVER be true.

Correct, as you have defined it, can't be used to determine if a

question actually has a correct value, only if H is correct in giving

its answer.

>

> For all H ∈ TM there exists input D such that

> (Correct(H(D)==false) ∨ (Correct(H(D)==true))==false

that D is a dependent variable such that:

for all H ∈ TM, there exist a D ∈ representation(TM) such that

(Correct(H(D)==false) ∨ (Correct(H(D)==true))==false

So, all you are saying here is that for all H there exists a D that H(D)

happens to get the wrong answer. So what.

To point out the limitiation of your "Correct" predicate imagine that if

H instead of being a Halt Detector, was a Prime detector, but was

incorrectly programmed and it though 2 was not prime, then

H(2) == False

Correct(H(2) == true) is false since H(2) doesn't return 2, so it wasn't

correct in saying 2, and

Correct(H(2) == false) is false, since 2 is prime, so H is not correct

in saying it is not prime.

Thus: (Correct(H(D)==false) ∨ (Correct(H(D)==true))==false

Doesn't say that the question is invalid, just that H got the answer wrong.

The fact that you can say the same for ALL possible Turing Macines,

still doesn't make the question "Wrong", just uncomputable.

You don't seem to understand that H(D) is a FIXED VALUE based on the

program of H, and that can ligitimately be WRONG

Oct 29, 2023, 2:44:21 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/2023 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:

Every H of the infinite set of all Turing machines gets the wrong

answer on their corresponding input D because this input D

essentially derives a self-contradictory thus incorrect question

for this H.

Like the question: What time is it (yes or no)?

the blame for the lack of a correct answer goes to the question
answer on their corresponding input D because this input D

essentially derives a self-contradictory thus incorrect question

for this H.

Like the question: What time is it (yes or no)?

and not the one attempting to answer it.

Oct 29, 2023, 3:14:30 PM10/29/23

to

Who says the need to be able to do it?

That is EXACTLY what the Theorem is proving, and which you admit, but

you want to refuse the logical consequence of it, because you don't

>

> Every H of the infinite set of all Turing machines gets the wrong

> answer on their corresponding input D because this input D

> essentially derives a self-contradictory thus incorrect question

> for this H.

Nice Category error there.

Every question in that set had a correct answer, that might have been

given by some members of the deciders in that set. That shows that the

actual QUESTION is VALID and not "self-contradictory"

The fact that every instance of the question has a correct answer, makes

it VALID.

The fact that every decider has such a question that it can't answer,

makes it uncomputable.

The fact that your Strawman version (What can H return to be correct)

doesn't have an answer is just part of the proof that the actual theorem

is proven, and just shows your ignorance of the subject.

>

> Like the question: What time is it (yes or no)?

> the blame for the lack of a correct answer goes to the question

> and not the one attempting to answer it.

>

smart as you.

What time is it (yes or no)? doesn't have an answer.

Does a particual D(D) Halt, DOES have an answer, and it will always be

the opposite of what the H(D,D) returns for the SPECIFIC H that D was

built to refute.

Having an answer that ONE machine can't answer correctly is not like a

question that doesn't actually have a answer (due to a category error in

this case) is not the same.

Your thinking they are the same just proves your stupidity.

Oct 29, 2023, 3:14:32 PM10/29/23

to

So?

Who says the need to be able to do it?

That is EXACTLY what the Theorem is proving, and which you admit, but

you want to refuse the logical consequence of it, because you don't

actually understand how logic or Truth works.
Who says the need to be able to do it?

That is EXACTLY what the Theorem is proving, and which you admit, but

you want to refuse the logical consequence of it, because you don't

> Every H of the infinite set of all Turing machines gets the wrong

> answer on their corresponding input D because this input D

> essentially derives a self-contradictory thus incorrect question

> for this H.

Nope, you are confused by mixing sets with objects in the set.

Nice Category error there.

Every question in that set had a correct answer, that might have been

given by some members of the deciders in that set. That shows that the

actual QUESTION is VALID and not "self-contradictory"

The fact that every instance of the question has a correct answer, makes

it VALID.

The fact that every decider has such a question that it can't answer,

makes it uncomputable.

The fact that your Strawman version (What can H return to be correct)

doesn't have an answer is just part of the proof that the actual theorem

is proven, and just shows your ignorance of the subject.

>

Nice Category error there.

Every question in that set had a correct answer, that might have been

given by some members of the deciders in that set. That shows that the

actual QUESTION is VALID and not "self-contradictory"

The fact that every instance of the question has a correct answer, makes

it VALID.

The fact that every decider has such a question that it can't answer,

makes it uncomputable.

The fact that your Strawman version (What can H return to be correct)

doesn't have an answer is just part of the proof that the actual theorem

is proven, and just shows your ignorance of the subject.

>

> Like the question: What time is it (yes or no)?

> the blame for the lack of a correct answer goes to the question

> and not the one attempting to answer it.

>

> the blame for the lack of a correct answer goes to the question

> and not the one attempting to answer it.

>

Oct 29, 2023, 3:25:13 PM10/29/23

to

the strawman deception.

Ignoring the context of who is asked the question deceptively

changes the meaning of the question.

Oct 29, 2023, 4:03:11 PM10/29/23

to

>

> Ignoring the context of who is asked the question deceptively

> changes the meaning of the question.

is asked,

"Does a SPECIFIED D(D) Halt?" is INDEPENDENT of whou you ask.

So, you are just showing you deceitfulness because will the question is

each time, about a SPECIFIC input, you try to change it to the input

associated with the decider deciding it, which is not a valid input.

You are just showing your stupidity by the form of your arguments.

Oct 29, 2023, 4:10:32 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/2023 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:

Every H of the infinite set of all Turing machines gets the wrong

answer

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

because this input D essentially derives a self-contradictory thus

incorrect question for this H.

answer

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

because this input D essentially derives a self-contradictory thus

incorrect question for this H.

Oct 29, 2023, 4:15:37 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/2023 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:

Every H of the infinite set of all Turing machines gets the wrong

answer

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

because this input D
answer

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

on their corresponding input D

because this input D

because this input D

because this input D

because this input D

essentially derives a self-contradictory thus

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

because this input D

essentially derives a self-contradictory thus

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

incorrect question for this H.

Oct 29, 2023, 4:36:46 PM10/29/23

to

answer, and thus are VALID.

D isn't "Self-Contradictory", it is contadictory to a DIFFERENT machine

then itself.

I guess you are just showing you dont' know the meaning of "self"

because you are too stupid.

(and acting like a two year old in repeating your erroneous claim over

and over as a BIG LIE thinking that makes it more correct.

You still refuse to actually try to point out the actual errors in my

statement but continue to repeat your proven wrong statements, showing

that you are just a pitiful logical idiot.

"Does (a specific) D(D) as specified by the input Halt?" is a valid

question as it has a correct answer.

The fact we can come up with a D (different in each case) for ANY H, as

you have admitted, means the question is not computable.

Maybe you should try to prove your point with more that just an appeal

to a (proven incorrrect) authority (namely you).

Try starting out with some actual accepted definition of the terms and

use some sound logic (not sure you know any) to try to make you point.

Remember, the question you are trying to prove invalid is:

"Does the specific computation described by the input Halt when run?"

and not "What does H need to return to get the right answer?" (which is

an invalid question, as for ANY specific H, it CAN only return the

answer that its algorithm will compute, and a given H has a specified

specific algorithm).

and also not, "Does an H exist that can return the right value for the

D(D) derived fron it?" as that is asking not about a specific input, but

about the existance of a machine to compute something. Non-existance of

machines to do something is NOT a "error", but a sign the problem is

uncomputable, which is exactly the type of questin that Computabilyt

Theory investigates. What sort of questions ARE computable, and which

are not. Not being computable is an acceptable state for a problem.

Oct 29, 2023, 4:40:04 PM10/29/23

to

You also have a category error as you are conflating H as an "every"

machine of the set with THIS machie of the set.

For THIS machine of the set, and THIS D of the set, there IS an answer,

so the question is valid.

and, but each is a DIFFERENT Question, and all the questions have

answer, and thus are also VALID.

D isn't "Self-Contradictory", it is contradictory to a DIFFERENT machine

[Options]

Oct 29, 2023, 4:58:29 PM10/29/23

to

On 10/29/2023 12:30 PM, olcott wrote:

definition is unsatisfiable because every H of the infinite

set of all Turing Machines has an input that makes the

question: Does your input halt? into a self-contradictory

thus incorrect question for this H.

The only rebuttals to this in the last two years rely
on one form of the strawman deception of another.

*Stupid or dishonest people may say otherwise*

That every D has a halt decider has nothing to do with

the claim that every H has an undecidable input.

Oct 29, 2023, 5:46:03 PM10/29/23

to

logic, just showing off your ignorance (even though you have been told

before, I guess you are to stupid to learn).

You also seem to not understand what the "self" part of

"self-contradictory" means, again, because you are too stupid to

understand when taught.

You also are repeating your category error by confusing specific

questions for sets of questios.

>

> The only rebuttals to this in the last two years rely

> on one form of the strawman deception of another.

>

understand how logic works.

If my replies are strawman, you can point to the claim that isn't

actually correct, and reference the accepted definition of the problem

to show where they differ.

The problem here is that you are just projecting, as a fundamental part

of the problem is you try to change the fundamental nature of the

problem by building your own strawman, and when I knock them down, you

claim my reassertion of the actual problem is a strawman, because you

can't recognise the actual problem.

> *Stupid or dishonest people may say otherwise*

> That every D has a halt decider has nothing to do with

> the claim that every H has an undecidable input.

>

the "input" is not "undecidable", as for every specific H, there is a

specific D(D), and that input has a definite behavior so the quesiton of

its Halt is valid.

Also, due to the limited nature of your H's design, that inputs behavior

IS decidable by another decider, and "decidable" just requires that

there exist SOME decider (which doesn't need to be your H) that can

answer the question correctly, and that exists, you have even shown how

to build it (your H1).

Thus, it isn't that the "input" is undecidable, it is that the PROBLEM

isn't, as no one machine can compute the answer for every possible input.

AGAIN, you are showing your STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE.

Oct 29, 2023, 6:38:23 PM10/29/23

to

My words may need some technical improvement...

[problem specification] is unsatisfiable

The idea is to convey the essence of many technical

papers in a single sound bite:

*The halting problem proofs merely show that*

*self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

Oct 29, 2023, 7:29:38 PM10/29/23

to

actual definitions.

Especially when you don't even quote the actual words used, since you

have shown youself to misinterprete what they are saying or have used

misleading wording where they will interpret your words to mean what

they are supposed to mean, and not you corrupted meaning.

You are just continuing to prove that you do not understand how logic

works, and by not even trying to refute the rebuttal are accepting them

as correct responses, and thus admitting you are just a stupid liar.

As pointed out, the actual questions DO have answer, so you are just an

unsound liar by your arguements that they do not.

You are just making sure that you name will be MUD for as long as it is

remembered, until it falls in the trash heap of history.

This will also mean that any good ideas you might have had have been

poisoned and worthless.

You have just gas-lighted your self into being just a babbling idiot

that can only repeat the lies he convinced himself of, with no actual

logical backing.

Too bad.

Oct 29, 2023, 7:43:58 PM10/29/23

to

Anonymous experts are not "evidence"

and no "expert" can contradict the

actual definitions.

The whole thing is a matter of these definitions
and no "expert" can contradict the

actual definitions.

semantically entailing additional nuances of meaning

that no one ever noticed before.

Computer scientists almost never pay any attention

at all to the philosophical underpinnings of the

foundations of concepts such as undecidability.

All of my related work in the last twenty years

has focused on these foundational underpinnings.

Oct 29, 2023, 8:44:47 PM10/29/23

to

like you are imagining things that aren't there.

If you HAVE found an actual "nuances" that hasn't been noticed before,

maybe if you try an actual step by step proof showing that "nuance".

I don't think you can, and this is just another case of an idiot

shooting at a target that just doesn't exist.

>

> Computer scientists almost never pay any attention

> at all to the philosophical underpinnings of the

> foundations of concepts such as undecidability.

a PRECISELY defined quantity.

The thing that you don't seem to understand is that in Formal Systems,

the rules are very important, and the things you are talking about are

well established by those rules.

If you want to change the "Rules" of the system, then you are in a very

real sense needing to START OVER and buid back up from the ground up.

It seems that you are so ignorant, that you don't understand that many

of your "new" ideas are actually existing, but becuase of the discovered

limitations, just parts of fringe systems.

Yes, you can have systems where all true statements are provable, but

the resulting system ends up very limited in scope, and can't be used to

form anything like the mathematics that support things like Computation

Theory.

>

> All of my related work in the last twenty years

> has focused on these foundational underpinnings.

>

the thigs actually mean.

Maybe if you were willing to actually LEARN about the systems you want

to talk about, but your stated fear of "Learning error by rote" as put

you in the state of Being in Error by Ignorance.

Your idea of building a system from "First Principles" requires you to

first actually LEARN those "First Principles". And for a "Formal Logic

System" that means at least enough to know all the basic rules and

definitons of the system. Things you have at time just admitted you

never knew, which sort of negates any "First Principle" developement you

might have done.

I will say that many of your errors where known about 100 years ago, so

it shows a glaring hole in your education.

Oct 29, 2023, 8:57:32 PM10/29/23

to

any WFF of a formal system cannot be proven or refuted

in this formal system EVEN WHEN THE WFF IS SEMANTICALLY

SELF-CONTRADICTORY

The notion of undecidability is determined even when the

decider is required to correctly answer a self-contradictory

(thus incorrect) question.

This is the epiphany of my work for the last 20 years and

two professors agree that this does apply to the halting

problem specification.

Oct 29, 2023, 9:08:07 PM10/29/23

to

>

> The notion of undecidability is determined even when the

> decider is required to correctly answer a self-contradictory

> (thus incorrect) question.

>

> This is the epiphany of my work for the last 20 years and

> two professors agree that this does apply to the halting

> problem specification.

>

You have PROVEN you don't understand a thing about what you are talking

about and thus prove yourself a liar.

As I mentioned, if you really think you have something, try to actually

show it with a real formal proof starting from the actual accepted

definitions.

Your problem seems to be that you just don't understand the fields well

enough to know what you can actually start with, or logic enough to

actually form a real logical proof.

Your just repeating your INCORRECT claims, just proves that you have

gas-light yourself into beliving your lies, and that you actually have

nothing to base your work on, except your own stupid lies.

Oct 29, 2023, 9:19:30 PM10/29/23

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definitions because the issue is that one of these

definitions semantically entails more meaning than

anyone ever noticed before.

That this applies generically to the notion of undecidability

seems to be an extension of these sames ideas that these

professors only applied to the halting problem specification.

The lead of these two professors and I exchanged fifty emails

where he confirmed my verbatim paraphrase of his ideas using

my own terms such as "incorrect questions".

Oct 29, 2023, 9:37:32 PM10/29/23

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so any claim you make about anything IN the system is just invalid.

IF you want to try to change the definitions, you need to just redrive

the system from the ground up with your new rules. (I doubt you can do

that).

Or, you could try to get some help by trying to clearly explain the

error in the fundamental rules you think are wrong.

Note, to do that you need to actually show the real problem that the

rule is causing.

Your idea that undecidable problem are actually invalid isn't going to

fly, as many of the undecidable problems are actually quite important.

The fact that you can't understand that, means you are going to have a

hard time convincing others or your ideas.

>

> That this applies generically to the notion of undecidability

> seems to be an extension of these sames ideas that these

> professors only applied to the halting problem specification.

the Halting Problem, as MANY problems are "undecidable".

>

> The lead of these two professors and I exchanged fifty emails

> where he confirmed my verbatim paraphrase of his ideas using

> my own terms such as "incorrect questions".

>

worth exactly NOTHING.

Oct 29, 2023, 9:44:26 PM10/29/23

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Then you are admtting that you can't do the

work in the formal system, so any claim you

make about anything IN the system is just invalid.

That the "term undecidability" semantically entails
work in the formal system, so any claim you

make about anything IN the system is just invalid.

previously unnoticed nuances of meaning can be understood

on the basis of the reasoning of myself and these two professors.

Just like incompleteness includes self-contradictory

expressions in its measure of incompleteness, undecidability

includes problem specifications that entail self-contradictory

questions. IF YOU WEREN'T STUCK IN REBUTTAL MODE YOU MIGHT SEE THIS

Oct 29, 2023, 10:02:25 PM10/29/23

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means, and EXACTLY means that there does not exist a Turing Machine that

can compute the "function".

What "nuances" are you claiming?

Remember also, that the "Function" mentioned is nothing more than a

mathematical mapping of input objects to output values, defined for all

elements of the input domain.

>

> Just like incompleteness includes self-contradictory

> expressions in its measure of incompleteness, undecidability

> includes problem specifications that entail self-contradictory

> questions. IF YOU WEREN'T STUCK IN REBUTTAL MODE YOU MIGHT SEE THIS

>

Completeness, means PRECISELY and nothing more, that all true statements

in the system can be proven in the system.

Incompleteness, thus, means that there exists, at least ONE true

statement in the system that can not be proven in that system.

For Godels proof, that statement is "that there does not exist a natural

number g that satisfies a particular Primative Recursive Relationship"

that was derived in a meta-system of the system, but said PRR is fully

defined in that system.

What is "self-contradictory" of that statement?

Remeber, all the arguments about provability doen't exist in the system,

and "self-contrdiction" is a property in the system being discussed.

Your problem is you don't understand the logic of the proof enough to

understand what the statement actually is.

Go ahead, try to actually answer one of the questions with an actual

logical answer based on FACTS,

My guess is you are going to again, just restate your FALSE claims and

thus prove that you don't actually have any true basis for your claims.

DARE YOU to try to answer.

Oct 29, 2023, 10:05:08 PM10/29/23

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grounds for saying something is wrong.

You need to show an ACTUAL contradiction in the system by the

definitions in the system (not something added)

Oct 29, 2023, 10:12:22 PM10/29/23

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Oct 29, 2023, 10:21:18 PM10/29/23

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you just repeated your LIE agian, thus proving you argument has no basis.

You still don't understand that "self-contradictory" needs to refer to

"self", but nothing in the Halting Problem proof actually "refered" to

"self"

And that the question possed, does have a single correct answer, so it

can't be "contridtory".

Thus proving you are just a LIAR.

Your refusal to actually answer any of the errors pointed out is just

hammering nails into the coffin of your argument, which died years ago,

and you have spent your last years just beating a dead red herring.

Oct 29, 2023, 10:27:55 PM10/29/23

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entail this then you will know that I and the two professors are

correct.

If you only want to provide a rebuttal no matter what the actual truth

is then you will continue to pretend that you don't see this.

Oct 29, 2023, 10:50:08 PM10/29/23

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definitions, as are unsound,

And anonymous supports without even quoting exactly what they agreed to

just makes you look foolish

My guess is you aren't going to quote what they actually said as you

know you are misinterpreting statements and don't want that pointed out,

like you error with Prof Sipser.

>

> If you only want to provide a rebuttal no matter what the actual truth

> is then you will continue to pretend that you don't see this.

>

definitions, and logical argument. You give "reasons" based on your

incorrect definitions that you can not support, and don't even try to

build an Formal Argument.

If you want to get out of unsound not-rebutting mode, maybe you should

try to answer some of the questions put to you.

Until then, you are just proving yourself to be the idiot.

Oct 29, 2023, 11:01:45 PM10/29/23

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for an incorrect rebuttal you won't see this.

When we hypothesize that this <is> literally true then it

has enormous consequences:

*The halting problem proofs merely show that*

*self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

sharply focus attention on a single point so that

rebuttals based on the strawman deception or ad

hominem are easily seen as having no basis what-so-ever.

Oct 29, 2023, 11:36:42 PM10/29/23

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Your failure to actually point out an error in my statements says that

you don't even attempt an "incorrect rebuttal" but are just accepting

the errors I have pointed out as actual errors.

YOU seem to be the one just taking a glance at MY words.

You do seem to project a lot of your errors on others, just like Trump.

You actually remind me a lot of him, even though you claim to be

fighting him, you use the similar methods to those you claim to be

trying to fight.

>

> When we hypothesize that this <is> literally true then it

> has enormous consequences:

>

> *The halting problem proofs merely show that*

> *self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

no "self-reference" to lead to the "self-contradictory" question.

Thus, it can't be true.

If you want to try to show an actual contradiction in the QUESTION

ITSELF go ahead and try.

THe problem is that the actual question has an definite provable answer,

so it gets very hard to show that to be "contradictiory"

Remember, each H gives a DIFFERENT question, as it creates a DIFFERENT

progran D to decide on, and for each of those D(D)'s there is a correct

answer.

If a given H(D,D) returns false, saying it predicts its input to be

non-halting, then we can show that D(D) will in fact be halting, so

there is no oppertunithy for the answer to have a contradiction.

Remember, the question says nothing about what the decider actually

does, only what answer it need to be correct, without requiring it to be

correct (that just means that this machine isn't actually a correct halt

decider).

This is the flaw in your argument, you somehow want to force that the

Halting Function must actually be decidable, and THAT assumption leads

to the contradiction, whcih shows that such an assumption must be incorrect.

>

> We had to boil it down to its sound bite form to

> sharply focus attention on a single point so that

> rebuttals based on the strawman deception or ad

> hominem are easily seen as having no basis what-so-ever.

>

your ability to actual try to express your logic.

Saying a short LIE doesn't help your cause.

Oct 29, 2023, 11:53:57 PM10/29/23

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Except that you haven't show how it CAN be true,

since there actually is no "self-reference" to

lead to the "self-contradictory" question.

since there actually is no "self-reference" to

lead to the "self-contradictory" question.

*The halting problem proofs merely show that*

*self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

*self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

No computer program H can correctly predict what

another computer program D will do when D has been

programmed to do the opposite of whatever H says.

The fact that D contradicts both values that every
another computer program D will do when D has been

programmed to do the opposite of whatever H says.

corresponding H can possibly return proves that input

D is isomorphic to a self-contradictory question for H.

If D would only contradict one of these values then D

would be a contradictory question. Since D contradicts

both of these values that makes D self-contradictory.

Oct 30, 2023, 12:01:59 AM10/30/23

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repeating the same LIES.

What is wrong with the answer that I have give you.

Remember, the "correct answer" to the Halting quesiton doesn't need to

be the result given by H, and the correct answer of "Halting" (for the

H's you have proposed) IS the correct answer.

>

> No computer program H can correctly predict what

> another computer program D will do when D has been

> programmed to do the opposite of whatever H says.

>

> The fact that D contradicts both values that every

> corresponding H can possibly return proves that input

> D is isomorphic to a self-contradictory question for H.

A given H can only give ONE value for a given input, the value its

algorithm produces.

>

> If D would only contradict one of these values then D

> would be a contradictory question. Since D contradicts

> both of these values that makes D self-contradictory.

>

Your logic just proves you totally don't umderstand what a computer

program is.

And it prove you to be a total IDIOT.

TRY TO PROVE ME WRONG.

Show me an H that could possible give me both answers FOR THE EXACT SAME

PROGRAM.

TRY IT, I DOUBLE DARE YOU.

You are just a chicken idiot,

You are just digging a deeper hole to bury your stupidity into.

Oct 30, 2023, 12:22:10 AM10/30/23

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Any yes/no question that contradicts both yes/no answers.

Every D derives a self-contradictory question for every

corresponding H in that:

(a) when each H says that its D will halt, D loops

(b) when each H that says its D will loop it halts.

Message has been deleted

Oct 30, 2023, 12:13:19 PM10/30/23

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*A self-contradictory question is defined as*

Any yes/no question that contradicts both yes/no answers.

For every H in the set of all Turing Machines there exists a D
Any yes/no question that contradicts both yes/no answers.

that derives a self-contradictory question for this H in that:

(a) When each H says that its D will halt, D loops

(b) When each H that says its D will loop it halts.

Oct 30, 2023, 12:18:47 PM10/30/23

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For every H in the set of all Turing Machines there exists a D

that derives a self-contradictory question for this H in that

(a) If this H says that its D will halt, D loops
that derives a self-contradictory question for this H in that

(b) If this H that says its D will loop it halts.

*Thus the question: Does D halt? is contradicted by some D for each H*

Oct 30, 2023, 12:30:07 PM10/30/23

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*The halting problem proofs merely show that*

*self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

*self-contradictory questions have no correct answer*

*A self-contradictory question is defined as*

Any yes/no question that contradicts both yes/no answers.

Any yes/no question that contradicts both yes/no answers.

Oct 30, 2023, 12:39:33 PM10/30/23

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When we ask "Does the computation described by the input Halt" by

calling H(D,D), we are asking about this particular D(D).

Since H(D,D) has a DEFINED value value for the SPECIFIC H, we can find

the behavior of the SPECIFIC D (designed for that H) when invoked as D(D).

Thus, the actual question has a definite answer and you claim is wrong,

and because you have been told this many times, it becomes a LIE as you

should know better. Perhaps it shows you to be a TOTAL IDIOT.

>

> For every H in the set of all Turing Machines there exists a D

> that derives a self-contradictory question for this H in that:

> (a) When each H says that its D will halt, D loops

> (b) When each H that says its D will loop it halts.

>

>

the correct answer Non-Halting, and if the H that this D was built on

syas that D will not Halt, then the correct answer is Halting.

Since "The H that this D was built on" is a specific computation, it has

a definite answer so we know which branch of the logic to use, and which

answer is correct.

Thus, there IS a correct answer.

You don't seem to understand this fundamental fact about programs, that

for a given program we have deterministic results from it.

You can't talk about a SPECIFIC H giving both answers, as it just can't,

it will only give one.

When you start to say "for every H" we are introducing not a single

question to answer, but a set of questions to answer, and the answers do

not need to be the same.

Each of those questions HAS an answer, so NONE of the questions were

contradictory.

It seems that the "self' that you are trying to describe is some

"infinite set", but the actual question isn't about a "set of inputs"

but about a specific input, so your argument is just another stupid

category error.

It does turn out that your "self-contradictory" question is sort of like

one asked in the proof, and maybe that is what is getting you confused.

The proof asks if we can make an H that could answer a machine of this

form, and the contradiction that comes out when we assume we can, shows

that we can't make an H to answer an input formed this way. This shows

that the problem is uncomputable, not self-contradictory, as questions

about computability to NOT imply that the function is, in fact, computable.

You are just, AGAIN, showing your ignorance of the topic, and logic in

general.

You just continue to spout off your lies about your incorrect logic, and

never answer the errors pointed out.

I sort of suspect the issue is you are too ignorant of the subject to

understand the corretions being given, and to you they sound just like

babbling, so you just act like your two-year-old self and just repeat

your errors over and over because you are incapable of learning what

things mean (perhaps in part due to self-inflicted deliberate ignorance).

Oct 30, 2023, 12:45:58 PM10/30/23

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