Re: [UCF] I do not agree with Bishop Joseph Kallarangatt, Bishop of the Palai Diocese of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

[John Dayal]

Open Fora  such as these do not have an agenda on the pattern of organised meetings. The responses here are neither controlled or contained on the one hand, or necessarily reflect some organisations point of view.

If we control such open fora, we will close all modes of discussion.

There are no platforms in there organised church to discussions of this nature where the Laity have a voice.

The fears on both sides are grave, and will need to be heard.

Nothing less will do

John Dayal

On 13-Sep-2021, at 2:10 PM, George Plathottam <gpl...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is no point trying to bring all sorts of issues here for discussion because we are biting more than what we can chew. Sexual crimes of the church leaders or the propriety or otherwise of Bishops meeting political leaders  of a certain category, or inter-caste or inter-religious marriage are not the issue here under discussion. 

We are primarly taling about terrorism and networks that are operatiing in Kerala.  I am posting a file which contains  information from reliable sources and not merely from the Palai bishop of the Church.  Those who can read the writing on the wall  will understand the gravity of the nexus between terrorism, narcotics and other crime. 

Every religion must rein in its  fanatic fringe. Nobody is white washing the Church. I for one have spoken  against certain types of evangelism that are inappropriate. I opposed the church groups in TN and AP when they were trying to get sponsorship for pilgrimage to Holy Land. I support the Assam government stopping the salaries of religion teachers in Madrasas as much as I would not support them paying for catechism teachers. 

I do not think we should be  discussing inter-caste or inter-religious marriage or religious leaders meeting with political leaders or the PM. Meeting the BJP leaders does not mean that those who meet them subscribe to their ideology.  There are far more serious issues here. Speaking against Taliban and IS and recruiting people for crime should not be called Islamophobia. 

George 

On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 16:09, Irfan Engineer <forirfan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear All,

I came across an interesting statement of the Indian Catholic Nun's Association in a WhatsApp group. I reproduce it for our information, since this is a group of friends and those committed to communal harmony and opposed to injustice of all kinds:

"Indian Catholic Nuns Association's request to Pala Bishop

Dear Bishop please include us (nuns) also among your daughters

1. From 1980 to till today 21 nun's bodies are found in wells of Kerala. You never raised your voice

2. Now venue changed. The last nun's body was found in a quarry. You never raised voice

3. Among us a nun in 2018 cried " I am raped 13 times.by Franco". You never raised voice

4. The nun who supported the victim of Franco rape now faces the most inhuman harassment. You never raised voice

5. Include minor girls too among your daughters. When a high profile clergy Robin raped and impregnated a minor girl, you never raised your voice

6. When some clergy impregnate widows/nuns/minors,adult women, victims are either expelled or thrown on the street and the priests are well protected and are either transferred or promoted.They are even appointed as the Directors of Retreat Centres. Many women lost their future due to some clergy.But you never raise your voice

7. Some clergy indulge in sexual abuse of children/boys. One is arrested in Kerala . You never raised your voice

Therefore please tell us who are your daughters as we call you 'Pithave'...

By

Indian Catholic Nuns' Association

(image representative)"

There are some self-serving people who love authority in all organizations, including religious organizations and within Muslim community as well. We must not judge people and certainly any community. We must always remember some principles - those of human rights, avoid stigmatizing the entire community for bad behaviour of a few people; speak truth to the power and not to the weak and vulnerable. If any person or a group commits any wrong, we do not condone the wrong, nor condemn, stigmatize and punish the entire community but work with the individuals doing wrong  deeds to reform them. I fully support Fr. Ajaya that we must do fact-finding if there are any credible allegations of wrongdoing by any individual or a group. All of us and all communities need to be guided only by truth and verified facts. No wrongdoing or violation should be condoned, irrespective of who is doing it. Let us become bridges rather than walls between communities and people.

Irfan Engineer 

On Mon, 13 Sept 2021 at 12:08, Ajaya Kumar Singh <ajays...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Dear AC Michael and all,

It is good that there is a discussion on the statement of Pala Bishop. It is a very good idea to respond to the issue. Appreciate some are working on it. 

I have a few thoughts on the issue.

1.       We could work on double responses: One immediate based on human rights & dignity principles. Second one could be comprehensive and evidence based (Fact-finding/Studies) taking into other factors. 

2.       Letters/Representation to Church leadership: Instead of directing our energy towards responding to the statement of the Bishop, could we think of writing letters/representations to all interdenominational church leadership to issue guidelines to celebrate diversity of religion and belief and amity. I am afraid there will be many more in the coming months/years. There is a Bishops’ Meet tomorrow onwards. Whether the letter could be sent to all

 

3.       Avoid Falling into Trap: The fascists always like to push fake narratives. It could be problematic if we look for numbers/cases. There could be instances or cases. It does happen in every social/religious group. If the converted or spouse not happy with the church or marriage or other factors could play victim cards. Hence, our response needs to be built on Dignity, Rights and Freedom of a human person. For a comprehensive response, we need to undertake fact finding/studies.

The bogey of conversion led to the introduction of the first anti-conversion law in Odisha in 1967 and in the aftermath of Kandhamal violence, it was found out that there are only two chargesheeted cases. Over 50 years, no conviction; yet Kandhamal carnage on the bogey of conversion. Now, there are attempts to file cases even for relief distribution and song practice too on conversion. 

4.       The statement lower the dignity and rights of Christian women: 

Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), ICCPR (Art 1 & 2): “Men and women are equal in dignity and rights and are endowed with reason and conscience’. 

The woman could choose partner of her choice, so also religion or belief. 

Supreme Court of India reiterates this:

Right to choose life partner is a fundamental right

Recently, the Supreme Court held in Shakti Vahini v. Union of India, (2018) 7 SCC 192 held that the right to select a life partner is a fundamental right. The court held that right to marry a person of one’s choice is a fundamental right under Article 21, 19(1)(a) and 14 of the Constitution of India. Freedom of speech and expression coupled with life and personal liberty manifest the right to choose each other as life partners.

Once the fundamental right is inherent in a person, then no one can scuttle such right by leaning on any kind of philosophy, moral or social, or self-proclaimed elevation.

Shakti Vahini vs. Union of India (2018) 7 SCC 192

Thus his uncle has no right to posing such threats. He is committing an offence under section 504/506 of the Indian Penal Code. Your friend may take legal recourse against him and

In Lata Singh v. State of U.P., (2006) 5 SCC 475; the Supreme Court has expressed its concern about growing incident of threats and violence against inter-caste marriage. 

 

5.       Religious Minority Community at Risk: 

 There is an element of Islamophobia among us. This is quite dangerous. The statement puts another religious minority at risk. Former Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief, Dr. Heiner Bielefeldt, warns that any ‘stereotypes against individuals on the basis of their religion or belief, in particular members of religious minorities, can lead to a depersonalisation of the human person’. 

 

The statement if not countered could lead to further source of human rights abuses. Hopefully, our response could lead to reconciliation and healing among the religious minority communities

Ajaya Kumar Singh

On Sun, 12 Sept 2021 at 10:07, Pamela Philipose <pamelap...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is a  reason why the BJP is feeding off the Bishop's statement.

On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 10:10 PM Fr. Cedric Prakash sj <cedric...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the initiative dear Michael 

and for the responses so far 

I certainly DO  NOT AGREE with the statements of the Bishop ; pitiable indeed and needs total condemnation !

Whilst I do respect every opinion 

I really do not see how any thinking citizen of India ( leave alone a so-called Christian) can even think of supporting 

derogatory and unconstitutional terms like 'love jihad' 

Over the years, I have  written  plenty on this including the anti-conversion laws of the country - and even acted on them

For one, there is enough in the CrPC to deal with force, kidnapping , cheating etc 

. Why is the law  and order not doing anything about it ?

Secondly an ADULT ( woman or man) has the RIGHT to marry the person of one's choice and for that matter, even to choose the religion of one's choice 

We MUST DEFEND this.

Thirdly , I am also asking for facts/figures : how many Catholic girls from Kerala have married Hindu men ? or for that matter married men of other faiths ?

How many have JUST STOPPED GOING TO CHURCH  because of the scandals : sexual and financial of those in power 

And of course , I am not interested in isolated examples - I would like to know how many Kerala Catholic Girls have actually married Muslims and embraced Islam ( by FORCE)

Have police complaints been lodged???

Today we MUST  PROVIDE EVIDENCE 

We need to do plenty of soul searching of the WITNESS  we give ... 

is the faith of our girls SO SHALLOW ?or  our Catholic men so USELESS that the women would 

prefer to marry outside ????

We need to FIRST GET OUR ACT TOGETHER 

and above all  to realise , that LOVE JIHAD is a bogey - a major ploy of Hindutva 

to defocus us from the greater concerns , the urgent issues that plague Church and Country today  

Sadly, some of us have fallen into the trap!!!

Warm wishes and prayers,

Cedric

Fr. Cedric Prakash SJ

Mobile: +91 9824034536

Skype:cprakashsj Twitter:@CedricPrakash 

On Sat, 11 Sept 2021 at 21:39, Jose P I <pijosea...@gmail.com> wrote:

I stand with the views of Br. AC Michael  and Fr. Sunny  Jacob in this issue. It is saddening to note the levels to which some of our Bishops are going down. 

I  wish they said what they felt after doing their duty as a citizen.  Every Indian is legally bound to inform the law enforcing authorities about any criminal activity they come to know about. Let the Bishop or for that matter the priests who support him with adequate knowledge  do that first and take some efforts to follow it up to save the community. 

In any case what the Bishop has done is clearly a criminal offense. He may not be booked for it because India is passing through a stage of ideologically fascist dominance and those forces are pleased with the Bishop's misdeed.

I  wish and hope the believers are not carried away by such swayam sewak like utterances. Let us carry on with Christ's teaching to love our enemy. 

P. I. Jose 

Advocate 

On Sat, 11 Sep 2021, 19:41 George Plathottam, <gpl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I write from Manila where I now live and work. While I was in Delhi I strongly denounced even the term 'love jihad' but I have changed my mind after paying closer attention to the issue. Last year due to Covid lockdown I spent four months in Kochi and three months in Dubai and was able to study  the issue more seriously.  

Those who say the statement of the Palai Bishop and other bishops in Kerala are creating Islamophobia need to be better informed about the issue.  There I huge support for them in the Church and Hindu community. The police and politicians have the facts though sometimes they play safe. 

We do not say all Hindus are supporting Hindutva or are RSS. This is a fringe group which got lot of legitimacy because also of the attitude of the largest political party, Congress, which is accused of Minority appeasement. Eventually this well served the BJP to consolidate their strength. In Assam and elsewhere  I have seen this happen. For political expediency, in Kerala the Left and Congress keep silent. They want the Muslim votes.

Those who read the newspapers in Kerala or follow news know how many girls have been brainwashed and converted, taken to IS and to Afghanistan in recent years. In my own home place, there are several  families who lost their girls who suddenly disappear or announce their newly found partner. 

I am not arguing that all Muslims are Jihadists, I grew up with good Muslim neighbours and whenever I visit home I visit many of their homes. But the radicalisation is going on by a minority within this community. 

We have an Urdu service in Radio Veritas based in Pakistan and one of the young Catholic girls who came here for training told harrowing stories of how one of her her own classmates was done to death through spiked drinks when she successfully became a doctor. It  was supposed to have been a party to felicitate her, but that became her end. 

In Manila I came across the case of a Catholic Filipina girl, who got to know a Muslim boy from Kerala on the internet. She was mourning and grieving her mother's death and that is when the boy befriended her. Shen then went  to Kerala for a month;  he treated her very well and even took her to show the Catholic Churches, but now she has agreed to convert to Islam and marry him. He is having a small shop in Kochi. The girl's family is very sad, but they can't do anything. It could be a genuine love relationship you might say, but I do not think so after hearing the whole story.

In Kerala today these days there is a tragic story of a girl from Kollam enticed to come to Calicut and gang raped after she was given spiked drink and cigarette with drug in it. Two have been nabbed, two are  at large. There are lots of cases of IS operating in the state and  actively recruiting people. The Bishops in Kerala  are not speaking in the air. Bp Kallarangatt is one of the most scholarly and respected Bishops in the whole Church.

There are lots of data on the Jihadi movement, IS and international networks.

We will all do well to  study and understand the issue at depth rather than target the Church leaders for telling the truth and cautioning their faithful. 

George Plathottam  

On Sat, 11 Sept 2021 at 20:43, Anand Kochukudy <andy....@gmail.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, this is not the view of the Pala Bishop alone. Islamophobia is spreading like wildfire among the Syrian Catholic Church in Kerala and the venerable bishops are adding fuel to the fire. The schism on liturgy has been quickly forgotten as the Irinjalakuda bishop Pauly Kannookkadan quickly came to the defence and reiterated Joseph Kallaranghatt's opinion. Deepika newspaper, Kerala's oldest daily, has been reduced to a Church organ. 

On Sat, 11 Sep, 2021, 4:51 pm Sunny Jacob SJ, <sunnyj...@gmail.com> wrote:

The statement of the Bishop has already divided Two minority communities further. I totally disagree with the, not only condemnable but divisive, statement of the Bishop. 

Sunny 

Sunny Jacob SJ

Assistant for Mission and Identity of the Secretariat for Education for the Society of Jesus & Jesuit Education Specialist for Educate Magis, Galway, Ireland

(former Secretary, JEA-SA, Former National Adviser JAAI, Former Principal of DNS, Digwadih)

 +91 9643907591, +91 9650814854

sunnyj...@gmail.com, 

www.educatemagis.org, www.jeasa.jcsaweb.org,

jeasa.org | Linkedin | Facebook| 

On Sat, 11 Sept 2021 at 16:47, Pamela Philipose <pamelap...@gmail.com> wrote:

The bishop's statement is condemnable. He should withdraw it.

On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 4:19 PM A C Michael <acmic...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

Those who know me well would say: “Michael loves to comment on anything and everything.” And I will not disagree with them because it's true. But I am unable to recall if I have ever disagreed with a Bishop, especially a Catholic Bishop in public. In private or in closed door meetings I have many times disagreed or argued with the bishops, including Cardinals.

But today I am unable to control myself and make my position very clear on the statement of Bishop Joseph Kallarangatt, Bishop of the Palai Diocese of the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church.

I completely disagree with the Bishop and in fact would like to appeal to the Bishop concerned to rethink or reconsider his statement and withdraw if need be in the interest of the nation and for the sake of the community at large.

Fact of the matter is that this very government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi had informed the Lok Sabha by the Union Minister of State in the Ministry of Home Affairs, G Kishan Reddy on 5^th of February 2019 that no case of “love jihad” reported in Kerala by any of the central agencies. The Minister added that the term “Love Jihad” is frequently used by Hindutva organisations to allege a conspiracy by Muslim men to marry women from other religions solely to convert them to Islam. The Minister further stated that “the term ‘love jihad’ is not defined under the extant laws” and “Article 25 of the Constitution provides for the freedom to profess, practice and propagate religion subject to public order, morality and health”. And that the “various courts have upheld this view including the Kerala High Court.”

Thanks & regards,

AC

A C Michael

Former Member of Delhi Minorities Commission

Vice Chairman - Media & Communication, National Council of YMCAs of India

Independent Director - Touchwood group of Companies

Managing Director - Sirio India Inductive Components Pvt Ltd - Part of Italy based Sirio Group

Mobile: +91-9818155290

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CAM59DLKUmeq0ehN%2BT8K_rkXpMKRN_Q66AJ0tJVTGWm3qt-NW2w%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CACNUz9vMEx1eWAfW1%2BV7fE7h4%2B4-vbObavQPk2QrphS9Z%3Do1%2BQ%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CABjccLLsk3%2BYJVRrU3RLNt28iUP8Lw2uB%2BfRir-R5nw9za_vqA%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CAKB9wZWfxe8om3xp-aN1ziCVm53GX5nuVHVExpxq__HxuiQaGg%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 

Fr. George Plathottam sdb

Executive Secretary,

FABC Office of Social Communication

Buick St., Fairview Park

P.B. 2642  Quezon City, Manila  1166  Philippines

Mob 0917- 1466192

fab...@gmail.com  gpl...@gmail.com

gplath.wordpress.com

 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CA%2B_whXTSPJakVf2Fu5-QivVhp2KvRob6uHzj10eQ6-LPC-%3DgMQ%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "THE INDIAN SYNOD" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indian-synod...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indian-synod/CAN1bn3DMVNR244zv06_xKP959oTrhwniQ-YO25o0zOJsfEQa-A%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CACNUz9tjJd-DjW_4qixUME4PKopUAm5NsywPiS6iu3kfFa5XVg%40mail.gmail.com.

-- 

                          

-- 

Fr. George Plathottam sdb

Executive Secretary,

FABC Office of Social Communication

Buick St., Fairview Park

P.B. 2642  Quezon City, Manila  1166  Philippines

Mob 0917- 1466192

fab...@gmail.com  gpl...@gmail.com

gplath.wordpress.com

 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "United Christian Forum" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ucfhr+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ucfhr/CA%2B_whXRjqT%2BCDy5cHNPDCB2f8bfR%3D8%2BQDV5SA5Y%3DbjPPCadF%2BA%40mail.gmail.com.
<Terrorism-Kerala to Kabul Kashmir.docx>